Bosh reduced to spot-up role, so he couldn't step up in 14' Finals like Kukoc in 98'

[3ball]

with Wade and Pippen ailing, the heat/bulls needed their 3rd option to step up, but Bosh had been neutered into spot-up shooting by lebron's ball-dominance.

what if MJ had a limited ball-dominant skillset and did that to Kukoc? ... does that mean the bulls lose in 98'?...

this is a clear-cut example of MJ's superiority to lebron - MJ's on-ball and off-ball skillet gets more out of teammates and is therefore superior.. this is the difference between 6/6 and 1*/9

[sdot_thadon]

and you have been reduced to a spot up troll.

[StrongLurk]

Guess OP is taking a small break from his recent Kawhi stanning.

[3ball]

if kukoc was reduced to spot-up shooter, the bulls don't win in 98'

good thing mj is better than Lebron so that didn't happen

[aceman]

with Wade and Pippen ailing, the heat/bulls needed their 3rd option to step up, but Bosh had been neutered into spot-up shooting by lebron's ball-dominance.

what if MJ had a limited ball-dominant skillset and did that to Kukoc? ... does that mean the bulls lose in 98'?...

this is a clear-cut example of MJ's superiority to lebron - MJ's on-ball and off-ball skillet gets more out of teammates and is therefore superior.. this is the difference between 6/6 and 1*/9

Wait I thought all of mj's teammates were passengers? Now your valuing for their offense / skills. This is problem with pushing agendas - have to contradict yourself many times

[Shooter]

Guess OP is taking a small break from his recent Kawhi stanning.

He's trying all the angles but 2016 is too supreme

[3ball]

He's trying all the angles but 2016 is too supreme

all of mj's Finals are bigger carry-jobs, aka Jordan averaged 10-20 more than Pippen

whereas lebron needed an equal scoring teammate to win a Finals (2-5 more than sidekick in Finals wins)

only mj could win a Finals or beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick, aka only mj had carry-jobs against good team's

[imdaman99]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/LAKIIRqtM1dqE/giphy.gif

[3ball]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/LAKIIRqtM1dqE/giphy.gif

I thought mj didn't do charity

lol he was doing public service announcements and building Boys Clubs when bron was in diapers.. where's lebron's public service announcement... #fraud..

[light]

Bosh was a PF. Kukoc was a ball handling wing. They are going to be used differently.

[Reggie43]

Kukoc would have thrived in that role because that was one of his strengths :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Bosh was a PF. Kukoc was a ball handling wing. They are going to be used differently.

LeBron turns ball-handlers into spot up shooters, aka Ingram, Hughes..

[light]

LeBron turns ball-handlers into spot up shooters, aka Ingram, Hughes..

Ingram was on the floor a lot without LeBron and still wasn't aggressive. That's why they tossed him.

Hughes? Lol.

He didnt turn Wade, AD or Kyrie into spot up shooters.

[3ball]

Ingram was on the floor a lot without LeBron and still wasn't aggressive. That's why they tossed him.

Hughes? Lol.

He didnt turn Wade, AD or Kyrie into spot up shooters.
Wade's assists cratered from 6.7 to 4.1 alongside LeBron, while his assisted rate (play-finishing) increased significantly... so he literally turns players from playmakers into play finishers

Mo, Wade, Love, Bosh, Ingram - every good player he's ever played with - they all see their assists crater alongside lebron (less playmaking), while their assisted rate soars (play-finishing)

lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level and gets massively out-assisted

[light]

Wade's assists cratered from 6.7 to 4.1 alongside LeBron, while his assisted rate (play-finishing) increased significantly... so he literally turns players from playmakers into play finishers

Mo, Wade, Love, Bosh, Ingram - every good player he's ever played with - they all see their assists crater alongside lebron (less playmaking), while their assisted rate soars (play-finishing)

lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level and gets massively out-assisted

The most important point is that Bosh was passive by nature whereas Kukoc was aggressive by nature.

No one had to kick Kukoc in the butt to get him going - he was always ready to take over a game. Bosh was never like that, which is why he had his reputation for being soft and passive.

Bron and Wade would try to get him to be more demanding and assertive but that just wasnt him.

[Shooter]

LeBron turns ball-handlers into spot up shooters, aka Ingram, Hughes..

I thought Kyrie was da "GOAT 2nd option" because of LeBron? What happened now, are you pivotting?

[HoopsNY]

with Wade and Pippen ailing, the heat/bulls needed their 3rd option to step up, but Bosh had been neutered into spot-up shooting by lebron's ball-dominance.

what if MJ had a limited ball-dominant skillset and did that to Kukoc? ... does that mean the bulls lose in 98'?...

this is a clear-cut example of MJ's superiority to lebron - MJ's on-ball and off-ball skillet gets more out of teammates and is therefore superior.. this is the difference between 6/6 and 1*/9

Have you considered that it was the system that demanded MJ's adjustment rather than MJ's ability to regulate ball movement? This isn't a knock against MJ, but more so a credit to the triangle offense.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think you're giving more credit to MJ than he deserves.

[3ball]

Have you considered that it was the system that demanded MJ's adjustment rather than MJ's ability to regulate ball movement? This isn't a knock against MJ, but more so a credit to the triangle offense.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think you're giving more credit to MJ than he deserves.

when Phil was toiling away as Doug's assistant and envisioning how he would run the team, he obviously thought MJ's game was sufficient and could work in the triangle.

now would he ever think an offense with no point guard role would fit with lebron?? lol.. hell no.. he probably wouldn't even consider the triangle if it was lebron instead of Jordan .. I'm sure he would've opted for a more point guard-centric offense

btw, pippen was doubling his scoring average and growing by leaps and bounds before Phil.. Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the finals... they took the champs 6 games in ECF with 9 on 40% from Pip... Bron gets beat by record amount vs the champs with that kind of help

[Shooter]

Many players had their best defensive years in their careers when they played with LeAnchor. To be consistent I will take the most recent years both before and after playing with LeBron.

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
Chris Bosh
2011 = 103
2012 = 100
2013 = 103
2014 = 104
Avg = 102.5

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
Chris Bosh
2009 = 111
2010 = 108
2015 = 106
2016 = 104
Avg = 107.25

Bosh: 102.5 w/ LBJ to 107.25 w/o , LBJ gives +4.75 boost to his Def Rtg

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
Tristin Thompson
2015 = 106
2016 = 104
2017 = 109
2018 = 112
Avg = 107.75

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
Tristin Thompson
2013 = 108
2014 = 108
2019 = 116
2020 = 114
Avg = 111.5

Tristin: 107.75 w/ LBJ to 111.5 w/o , LBJ gives +3.75 boost to his Def Rtg

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
Kyrie Irving
2015 = 108
2016 = 106
2017 = 112
Avg = 108

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
Kyrie Irving
2013 = 110
2014 = 108
2019 = 108
Avg = 108.7

Kyrie 108 w/ LBJ to 108.7 w/o , LBJ gives +.7 boost to his Def Rtg

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
Anthony Davis
2020 = 101
Avg = 101

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
Anthony Davis
2019 = 105
2018 = 102
Avg = 103.5

Davis 101 w/ LBJ to 103.5 w/o , LBJ gives +2.5 boost to his Def Rtg

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
J.R. Smith
2015 = 107
2016 = 106
2017 = 112
2018 = 114
Avg = 109.75

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
J.R. Smith
2013 = 106
2014 = 111
2015 = 112
2019 = 116
Avg = 111.25

J.R. Smith 109.75 w/ LBJ to 111.25 w/o , LBJ gives +1.5 boost to his Def Rtg

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
Shane Battier
2012 = 102
2013 = 107
2014 = 108
Avg = 105.7

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
Shane Battier
2009= 105
2010 = 108
2011 = 108
Avg = 107

Battier 105.7 w/ LBJ to 107 w/o , LBJ gives +1.3 boost to his Def Rtg

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
Timofey Mozgov
2015 = 105
2016 = 103
Avg = 104

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
Timofey Mozgov
2017= 114
2018 = 110
Avg = 112

Mozgov 104 w/ LBJ to 112 w/o , LBJ gives +8 boost to his Def Rtg

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
Larry Hughes
2006 = 105
2007 = 103
2008= 106
Avg = 104.7

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
Larry Hughes
2005 = 103
2008 = 108
2009 = 109
Avg = 106.7

Hughes 104.7 w/ LBJ to 106.7 w/o , LBJ gives +2 boost to his Def Rtg

Defensive Rating w/ LeBron
Kevin Love
2015 = 105
2016 = 102
2017= 107
2018 = 109
Avg = 105.75

Defensive Rating w/o LeBron
Kevin Love
2013 = 102
2014 = 104
2019 = 114
2020 = 113
Avg = 108.25

Love 105.75 w/ LBJ to 108.25 w/o , LBJ gives +2.5 boost to his Def Rtg

LeAnchor improved almost all guys he plays with: Bosh, Kyrie, Mozgov, Hughes, Davis, Battier, J.R. Smith, TT, Love

Incredible impact.

[Shooter]

Cliffs:

Many players had their best defensive stretches in their careers when they played with LeAnchor. To be consistent I will take the most recent years both before and after playing with LeBron.

Bosh: 102.5 w/ LBJ to 107.25 w/o , LBJ gives +4.75 boost to his Def Rtg
Tristin: 107.75 w/ LBJ to 111.5 w/o , LBJ gives +3.75 boost to his Def Rtg
Kyrie 108 w/ LBJ to 108.7 w/o , LBJ gives +.7 boost to his Def Rtg
Davis 101 w/ LBJ to 103.5 w/o , LBJ gives +2.5 boost to his Def Rtg
J.R. Smith 109.75 w/ LBJ to 111.25 w/o , LBJ gives +1.5 boost to his Def Rtg
Battier 105.7 w/ LBJ to 107 w/o , LBJ gives +1.3 boost to his Def Rtg
Mozgov 104 w/ LBJ to 112 w/o , LBJ gives +8 boost to his Def Rtg
Hughes 104.7 w/ LBJ to 106.7 w/o , LBJ gives +2 boost to his Def Rtg
Love 105.75 w/ LBJ to 108.25 w/o , LBJ gives +2.5 boost to his Def Rtg

LeAnchor improved almost all guys he plays with: Bosh, Kyrie, Mozgov, Hughes, Davis, Battier, J.R. Smith, TT, Love

Incredible impact.

[3ball]

^^^ cherry-pick a few guys that improved and skew some of the data like Hughes

means nothing.. no spur or warrior in the 14/15/17/18 Finals averaged more than 2 points above their regular season average, except Lebron's assignment (kawhi, Iggy, Durant, Durant), who scored 5-10 above their normal average... aka, only lebron was letting his man go off

but most importantly, the Spurs no longer had to work defensively against the solved bron-ball, and had more capacity to go off offensively..

before you say this is b*llshit, consider why coaches/players always advise to "make him work on defense" - they hope it will blunt his offensive attack... the best defense is a good offense.. this is a tenet of all competition - if a fighter is on their heels, they must show effective offense or the ref will stop the fight.. the Spurs figured out bron-ball and were free to start running over the Heat.

A dynasty requires effective offense.. bron-ball falls short, and still mostly falls short after acquiring the most talent in the league in 11' and 15'

Ultimately, lebron's passive jumper, no doubles, and long-dribbling doesn't shift defenses/wear down like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are fresher with more capacity to go off offensively

[Shooter]

^^^ cherry-pick a few guys that improved and skew some of the data like Hughes

means nothing.. no spur or warrior in the 14/15/17/18 Finals averaged more than 2 points above their regular season average, except Lebron's assignment (kawhi, Iggy, Durant, Durant), who scored 5-10 above their normal average... aka, only lebron was letting his man go off

but most importantly, the Spurs no longer had to work defensively against the solved bron-ball, and had more capacity to go off offensively..

before you say this is b*llshit, consider why coaches/players always advise to "make him work on defense" - they hope it will blunt his offensive attack... the best defense is a good offense.. this is a tenet of all competition - if a fighter is on their heels, they must show effective offense or the ref will stop the fight.. the Spurs figured out bron-ball and were free to start running over the Heat.

A dynasty requires effective offense.. bron-ball falls short, and still mostly falls short after acquiring the most talent in the league in 11' and 15'

Ultimately, lebron's passive jumper, no doubles, and long-dribbling doesn't shift defenses/wear down like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are fresher with more capacity to go off offensively

Skewed zero data. Cherry picked nothing. That was your response to LeBron boosting 11 guys on defenses? Be better...Doesn't trolling get old?

[3ball]

Skewed zero data. Cherry picked nothing. That was your response to LeBron boosting 11 guys on defenses? Be better...Doesn't trolling get old?

lebron played with over 100 guys - you cherry-picked 11 and omitted numerous key guys

and it's meaningless because these are super-teams where guys like Bosh were defensive role players instead of offense-carrying stud that he used to be

again, completely useless data and inefficient posting.. your posting PER is really bad

[Smoke117]

Wait, I thought you quit the board? Something about so and so I already blah blah...exactly. ****ing pathetic loser.

[Shooter]

lebron played with over 100 guys - you cherry-picked 11 and omitted numerous key guys

and it's meaningless because these are super-teams where guys like Bosh were defensive role players instead of offense-carrying stud that he used to be

again, completely useless data and inefficient posting.. your posting PER is really bad

Where did LeBron hurt you?

[Smoke117]

Where did LeBron hurt you?

Why do you keep creating so many accounts? He's a ****ing demented loser and that's a fact, but what's your excuse?

[HoopsNY]

when Phil was toiling away as Doug's assistant and envisioning how he would run the team, he obviously thought MJ's game was sufficient and could work in the triangle.

now would he ever think an offense with no point guard role would fit with lebron?? lol.. hell no.. he probably wouldn't even consider the triangle if it was lebron instead of Jordan .. I'm sure he would've opted for a more point guard-centric offense

btw, pippen was doubling his scoring average and growing by leaps and bounds before Phil.. Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the finals... they took the champs 6 games in ECF with 9 on 40% from Pip... Bron gets beat by record amount vs the champs with that kind of help

None of that addresses what I said though. You're giving credit to MJ for ball movement. I believe that credit should go more to Tex Winters and the triangle offense than for Mj. I don't disagree about LeBron. He is the system and is also ball dominant. But that doesn't mean that the Bulls' offense ran as smoothly as it did because of Mj.