2010s all Decade team. Max Kel: Kobe should be on all NBA worst of the decade team

[Shooter]

2010's All Decades

First Team: Curry, Harden, LeBron, Durant, Kawhi
Second Team: CP3, Russell, Davis, Griffin, Carmello


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dej1n9qq1U0

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I agree with his teams but I replace Griffin with Giannis.

[Roundball_Rock]

Westbrook should be on there instead of Kawhi. Kawhi did little for half the decade.

[SouBeachTalents]

Westbrook should be on there instead of Kawhi. Kawhi did little for half the decade.
It'd be hard to leave off a 2x FMVP & DPOY imo

[tpols]

Westbrook should be on there instead of Kawhi. Kawhi did little for half the decade.


you'd have to be totally basketball illiterate to think westbrook is even in the same universe as kawhi at playing basketball.

[Phoenix]

It'd be hard to leave off a 2x FMVP & DPOY imo

The way we measure championships most would probably take that view. What Russ has done definitely warrants an honorable mention. He's boneheaded as fukk and I don't see him ever winning a title ( not as the best or 2nd best player anyway) but he leaves it on the floor.

[Roundball_Rock]

It'd be hard to leave off a 2x FMVP & DPOY imo

If it is a "best players of the 2010's" list but if it is for decade long achievements (which is what an "all-decade" team implies, similar to an "all-NBA" team for a given year), how can a guy who was not a star for half the decade get it over Westbrook (who was balling all decade and won a MVP)? Kawhi won't make first team all-NBA this year because of the games he missed even though he is better than LeBron, Davis. That is missing 20% or so the games, not being a role player for half a decade.

[Real Men Wear Green]

you'd have to be totally basketball illiterate to think westbrook is even in the same universe as kawhi at playing basketball.Leonard is better for a great team that is only worried about winning a championship. But most teams aren't at that level and have more need for a guy that will play a ton and carry them all season. That's Westbrook.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm not even saying Westbrook is better. I simply am saying Westbrook accomplished more than Kawhi in the 2010's. Here are some of their achievements in the decade:

MVP: Westbrook 1, Kawhi 0
All-NBA: Westbrook 8, Kawhi 3
All-NBA 1st: 2 each
All-star: Westbrook 8, Kawhi 3
FMVP: Kawhi 2, Westbrook 0
Top 5 MVP: Westbrook 4, Kawhi 2
Top 10 MVP: Westbrook 6, Kawhi 4
DPOY: Kawhi 2, Westbrook 0
All-D: Kawhi 5, Westbrook 0
Points: Westbrook 17,603; Kawhi 8,250
Rebounds: Westbrook 5,361; Kawhi 2,363
Assists: Westbrook 6,462; Kawhi 1,142

3 all-star teams and first team for the decade?

[Shogon]

Leonard is better for a great team that is only worried about winning a championship. But most teams aren't at that level and have more need for a guy that will play a ton and carry them all season. That's Westbrook.

I agree with this.

However, even if Leonard played all 82, I'm not so sure that he could carry 'scrubs' further than Westbrook could.

Thus it begs the question... what does 'best' really even mean? What does 'better' really even mean? It's almost impossible to say.

It's basically the MJ vs LeBron debate, honestly. It's the same thing. What does 'better' even really mean? Nobody can convince me that MJ wouldn't do better than LeBron while on an elite team because MJ fits in more easily than LeBron, who will distort your offense to be about him. Just like nobody can convince me that MJ could carry a bunch of guys that might win 25 games without him to close to 60 wins like LeBron can and has. What does 'better' even really mean?

[guy]

The criteria was 2 backcourt players, 3 frontcourt players. The only frontcourt players that were great the whole decade were Lebron and Durant. So with that, Kawhi definitely deserves to be on there above the other frontcourt players mentioned.

[999Guy]

No chance in hell Curry was better than CP3 in the 10’s. Or Kawhi WTF?

Millsap was better than Carmelo.

Horford was better than Carmelo.

[999Guy]

Draymond and Kawhi are close in the decade.

Iguodala should be over Carmelo if we’re considering accolades.

[Shogon]

No chance in hell Curry was better than CP3 in the 10’s. Or Kawhi WTF?

Millsap was better than Carmelo.

Horford was better than Carmelo.

CP3 had more overall longevity but Curry's peak was so incredibly high, especially being the primary catalyst for 3 titles, that the argument could easily be made.

I mean, Curry was clearly a superior player for half of the decade if not ever so slightly more.

[Hey Yo]

CP3 had more overall longevity but Curry's peak was so incredibly high, especially being the primary catalyst for 3 titles, that the argument could easily be made.

I mean, Curry was clearly a superior player for half of the decade if not ever so slightly more.
He was??

[Roundball_Rock]

Look at the all-star teams for each of these players in the decade:

LeBron/Durant 10
Westbrook/Carmelo 8
Harden/Paul 7
Davis/Curry/Griffin 6
Kawhi 3

One of these is not like the others...

[Shogon]

He was??

Yes, he was.

[SouBeachTalents]

Carmelo really made 8 all-star games this decade? It feels like he hasn't even been a relevant player in like 7 years

[Shogon]

Look at the all-star teams for each of these players in the decade:

LeBron/Durant 10
Westbrook/Carmelo 8
Harden/Paul 7
Davis/Curry/Griffin 6
Kawhi 3

One of these is not like the others...

You're right, Carmelo Anthony doesn't belong in the same breath as all of those other players... well, except Blake Griffin I guess. They're comprable. So really, it's two of these are not like the others.

[tpols]

Leonard is better for a great team that is only worried about winning a championship. But most teams aren't at that level and have more need for a guy that will play a ton and carry them all season. That's Westbrook.

Leonard is absolutely better for any team... by a lot.

His teams, even if mediocre, would still make the playoffs with him playing 65 games because they'd win so many of those 65, they'd still have a winning record for the whole season.

And in the playoffs it's just a slaughter in every dimension.

You're comparing one of the dumbest, team ceiling lowering guys ever to a prolific career 120 ORTG having, DPOY defense playing, ATG clutch player.

[Phoenix]

The criteria was 2 backcourt players, 3 frontcourt players. The only frontcourt players that were great the whole decade were Lebron and Durant. So with that, Kawhi definitely deserves to be on there above the other frontcourt players mentioned.

That's a good point. People are comparing Kawhi to Westbrook when they aren't competing for the same spot if we are doing frontcourt and backcourt positions. It's Russ vs Steph, Harden CP3. Lebron and Durant are as no-brainer as you can get for 2 front-court spots. It's more like it would be AD vs Kawhi if anything, and AD doesn't have the team success though he has the longer body of work. Kawhi's really only been a 'star' since 2015 and one of those seasons he basically missed. He's really a case where he's raised the ceiling for his teams but we haven't yet seen him carry a bunch of scrubs who win 20 games without him. My guess is, he's one of those guys that when your team is good, he's the cherry. They're a playoff team without him and a legit title contender with him.

[Phoenix]

Carmelo really made 8 all-star games this decade? It feels like he hasn't even been a relevant player in like 7 years

He was kind of an auto-pilot pick as long as he was dropping 20+ with the Knicks. As soon as he left.....

https://media3.giphy.com/media/3o6ozAXbBKwCJvbdq8/giphy.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Carmelo really made 8 all-star games this decade? It feels like he hasn't even been a relevant player in like 7 years

His career has some parallels to his former teammate Iverson. When the end came, it came fast. He was 22/6/3 in 17', his last all-star season. He had a bad year in OKC and then was basically out the league for 19' (outside of 10 games with Houston at the beginning of the year).


People are comparing Kawhi to Westbrook when they aren't competing for the same spot if we are doing frontcourt and backcourt positions

That is a weird way to do it: to smuggle in a third forward while there are only two guards.


It's more like it would be AD vs Kawhi if anything, and AD doesn't have the individual or team accompaniments even though he has the longer body of work

Davis compares better than people would think.

All-star: Davis 6, Kawhi 3
All-NBA: 3 each
All-NBA 1st: Davis 3, Kawhi 2
Top 5 MVP: 2 each
Top 10 MVP: Kawhi 4, Davis 3
All-D: Kawhi 5, Davis 3
DPOY: Kawhi 2, Davis 0
FMVP: Kawhi 2, Davis 0

Statistically, AD has the edge. About 11,000 points, 5,000 boards, 1,000 assists. Kawhi is around 8,000 points, 2,400 boards, and 1,100 assists.

The issue with Kawhi is that first FMVP came as a 13/6/2 player (a prime reason the award is a joke). People tend to assume Kawhi was Kawhi when that happened in 2014 so think he was better for the decade than he actually was. He wasn't an all-star until 2016 and then basically missed all of 2018. So all the Kawhi stuff is 16', 17', 19' for the decade. 3 of 10 years.

He didn't play at all for 10', 11' (college), and essentially 18' (9 games). So basically 0 from him for 30% of the decade (10', 11', 18'), then he wasn't a star for another 40% (12', 13', 14', 15'). 1st team all-decade? :confusedshrug:

Giannis made as many all-star and all-NBA teams as Kawhi in the 2010's--while winning a MVP--if we want to talk ceilings yet Giannis isn't even on the 2nd team. Giannis had about 9,000 points, 3,800 boards, 1,900 assists in the decade--all more than Kawhi despite not being in the NBA until 14'.

[Phoenix]

That is a weird way to do it: to smuggle in a third forward while there are only two guards.





I'm looking at it from the standpoint of how they do the all-NBA teams which is two backcourt and 3 frontcourt. Actually, it's 2 guards, two forwards and center for the all-star game. So establishing what the baseline is would help the discussion.

[Roundball_Rock]

All-NBA is 2 F, 1 C, 2 G while all-star is now 2 backcourt and 3 frontcourt. Davis made 2 of his 3 all-NBA teams as a C. If this is to mimic all-NBA, Davis or Howard should get the C spot with LeBron and KD being the two forwards.

[Phoenix]

All-NBA is 2 F, 1 C, 2 G while all-star is now 2 backcourt and 3 frontcourt. Davis made 2 of his 3 all-NBA teams as a C. If this is to mimic all-NBA, Davis or Howard should get the C spot with LeBron and KD being the two forwards.

Yeah. Either way you want to slice it Russell and Kawhi aren't really competing positionally. So the question is, are we just doing the 5 straight best players regardless of position or are we doing some version of the above and mimicking the all-star/all-NBA format? IMO the 3 best players over the decade are Lebron, Durant and Curry. They're the decade anchors, then go on from there. If we are doing 2 forwards and a center than Kawhi doesn't beat out Lebron and Durant obviously. If its just 3 'frontcourt' positions the line becomes a little blurrier.

[Roundball_Rock]

The 5 most accomplished players of the 2010's are LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Westbrook IMO and there is a notable drop-off from them (generally to people who weren't great as long as they were in the decade). If you are doing it by position it is different. For all-NBA I would go: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden and Davis as the C. For frontcourt Davis or Kawhi. If you look at Kawhi as an all-star selection and assume a player missed 30% of games, was not a star for 40%, that would mean that player would have 12-15 star games as a star (which doesn't factor in the inevitable bad games any player has) before the all-star game. Would such a player make an all-star team? I don't think so. PG played 34 games before the break this year and didn't make it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Probably accurate.

Since this is positionless, you could then argue CP3 over Harden. Arguably more impact, better advanced stats and had more 'superstar' seasons logged.

'10-19 CP3: 7.6 BPM 25 PER
'10-19 Harden: 6.7 BPM 24.4 PER

And from 2010-2019, only ONCE did Harden have a better RAPM (2015). Every year Paul was rated higher, ie. had more impact.

[Phoenix]

What's interesting is the complete shift away from centers. This may be the first decade where you could argue no center has an iron-clad case as one of the straight up 5 best players irrespective of position.

[Stephonit]

If Westbrook is being considered then Chris Paul needs to be as well.

[guy]

Draymond and Kawhi are close in the decade.


What? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

What's interesting is the complete shift away from centers. This may be the first decade where you could argue no center has an iron-clad case as one of the straight up 5 best players irrespective of position.

For sure, and then you have a lot of players who are PF/C hybrids like Davis. Back in the day a C was a C, other than extreme cases like the Houston and New York "twin towers" where the teams started two centers and one had to play PF by necessity.

Howard was clearly the best C in the first half of the decade but he did little in the second half. Davis was good for most of the decade but has played both PF and C.

[Whoah10115]

Curry and Paul. LeBron and Durant. Leonard has higher peak but he's only in his fourth season as an elite player. Hard to calculate. Aldridge, Griffin, maybe Love? None of them reached Kawhi's peak, but how far ahead is his peak? I literally have no idea.

Just pick a C, as 3 frontcourt guys is a stupid thing.

[tpols]

Curry and Paul. LeBron and Durant. Leonard has higher peak but he's only in his fourth season as an elite player. Hard to calculate. Aldridge, Griffin, maybe Love? None of them reached Kawhi's peak, but how far ahead is his peak? I literally have no idea.

Just pick a C, as 3 frontcourt guys is a stupid thing.

Davis is pretty clearly better than those 3 he shouldve been center.

[Whoah10115]

Davis is pretty clearly better than those 3 he shouldve been center.

In a vacuum, not necessarily outside one.

[Roundball_Rock]

Paul George should be in the discussion too. Here is what he did in the 2010's:

6x all-star
5x all-NBA (1x first team)
4x all-D
1x top 5 MVP
2x top 10 MVP

He was the best player on two teams that made the conference finals, one which got to Game 7 of the ECF.