College Athletes being Paid

[HoopsNY]

I know it isn't entirely NBA related, but I watched an interview with Draymond Green yesterday where he advocated for NCAA athletes being paid. I'm curious to know what other's thoughts are on this.

As for myself, I agree with Draymond. I believe they should be paid on the account of how much money college athletes bring to universities. A $200,000 scholarship is nothing compared to the millions that the universities make in a single year. For example, Duke University profited some $31 million dollars alone in 2017. That's not revenue, but profit.

If the retort is, "Well, players are on a scholarship like other students who are on scholarships. So why athletes and not all students who are on scholarships?" Then it should be known that students who are on scholarships have the opportunity to work outside of the campus to sustain themselves to an extent, and those students aren't bringing in millions of dollars the way these college athletes are.

Draymond also makes the argument that these basketball scholarships are often from endowments and not tuition generated. So for that reason, players should be compensated, especially when such a large percentage of black athletes are coming from impoverished circumstances.

Curious to know everyone else's thoughts.

[HylianNightmare]

They make the school money they should be payed. Plain and simple. They still get paid anyway so...

[Norcaliblunt]

I think high school kids should be paid to go to school.

[iamgine]

They are actually being paid with free tuition, housing, great training facilities, great coaching, publicity, transport, etc. So lets not say they aren't being paid.

But if we want to talk they are not paid enough, then that's a supply - demand question. I'd encourage them to get into G-League, streetball or overseas league if they feel like that can compensate them better than the NCAA. This will also huge pressure the NCAA to compensate athletes more. But to say that NCAA should start paying salary because "they make money off these athletes" is just dumb.

[FultzNationRISE]

I know it isn't entirely NBA related, but I watched an interview with Draymond Green yesterday where he advocated for NCAA athletes being paid. I'm curious to know what other's thoughts are on this.

As for myself, I agree with Draymond. I believe they should be paid on the account of how much money college athletes bring to universities. A $200,000 scholarship is nothing compared to the millions that the universities make in a single year. For example, Duke University profited some $31 million dollars alone in 2017. That's not revenue, but profit.

If the retort is, "Well, players are on a scholarship like other students who are on scholarships. So why athletes and not all students who are on scholarships?" Then it should be known that students who are on scholarships have the opportunity to work outside of the campus to sustain themselves to an extent, and those students aren't bringing in millions of dollars the way these college athletes are.

Draymond also makes the argument that these basketball scholarships are often from endowments and not tuition generated. So for that reason, players should be compensated, especially when such a large percentage of black athletes are coming from impoverished circumstances.

Curious to know everyone else's thoughts.


This is an irrelevant argument that will just push people away.

NCAA rules on amateur eligibility have been in place long before blacks were even allowed in these colleges. The rules and the revenue system have ZERO to do with race.

If you want to compel people to your side of the argument, make sure to use intelligent arguments instead of a contrived victim narrative. Someone may wanna let Draymond know.

[FreezingTsmoove]

The engineer at a university on a scholarship can sell a toaster and make millions but an extremely popular athlete on the same scholarship cant sell shoes with his autograph on them :lol

[msbutthurt]

If athletes are paid... they should pay for the college degree and not get a scholarship. They get free everything... Housing. Food. Books.


If you want to blame people for college not paying players outside of going to school.... blame the NBA for requiring players to be a year removed from high school and not having a minor league system that pays well.


MLB has Triple A. Double A. Single A.


Blame the NBA for using college as their minor league system. Don't blame college.

[HoopsNY]

They are actually being paid with free tuition, housing, great training facilities, great coaching, publicity, transport, etc. So lets not say they aren't being paid.

The problem with this is that so are other students who get scholarships. The difference is those students don't make universities hundreds of millions of dollars over the span of four years. And those students will likely have an opportunity to be able to tutor, teach, work, etc outside of their daily classes in order to supplement their income. Those students who are athletes won't have that opportunity.


NCAA rules on amateur eligibility have been in place long before blacks were even allowed in these colleges. The rules and the revenue system have ZERO to do with race.


That's one way of looking at it. I don't think Draymond was pointing the finger at racism on that one, but the social-circumstances of African American athletes is something of particular concern. Athletes risk everything and aren't guaranteed an NBA contract, which in end means neither they nor their families could end up benefiting.


If athletes are paid... they should pay for the college degree and not get a scholarship. They get free everything... Housing. Food. Books.

So do other students on full-scholarships. Yet those students don't generate hundreds of millions of dollars worth of revenue for the university over the span of 4 years.

[FKAri]

So do other students on full-scholarships. Yet those students don't generate hundreds of millions of dollars worth of revenue for the university over the span of 4 years.
Then don't go to the college. Why risk everything for no pay? Go play in the G League or Europe or China.

[HoopsNY]

Then don't go to the college. Why risk everything for no pay? Go play in the G League or Europe or China.

Well I think they attend for the "opportunity" and in the end still get a degree. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid. The idea that they should go to another country just sounds like the age old union busting tactics that we've seen in our country for over 100 years.

Should we apply that logic to business and government in the U.S., too? After all, people can go to another country for a similar job, albeit with less pay (similar to that of Europe and China).

[Bronbron23]

they should absolutely be paid. The ncaa has been taking advantage of these athletes forever and it has nothing to do with color. They take advantage of white athletes too.

And no tuition and board isnt enough. That costs very little for these schools and they're making hundreds of millions of dollars.

[iamgine]

The problem with this is that so are other students who get scholarships. The difference is those students don't make universities hundreds of millions of dollars over the span of four years. And those students will likely have an opportunity to be able to tutor, teach, work, etc outside of their daily classes in order to supplement their income. Those students who are athletes won't have that opportunity.
So? We agree they are paid, just like other students who get scholarships. The assumption that they are the ones that make the universities $$ is wrong. They are part of that, but there are other equally important parts like the deals the NCAA have, the system in place, the history and the venue. Besides, these athletes get what most other scholarships don't. They are given a chance to showcase themselves in one of most watched league in the world. I'm not sure what entitled them to salary.

[HoopsNY]

So? We agree they are paid, just like other students who get scholarships. The assumption that they are the ones that make the universities $$ is wrong. They are part of that, but there are other equally important parts like the deals the NCAA have, the system in place, the history and the venue. Besides, these athletes get what most other scholarships don't. They are given a chance to showcase themselves in one of most watched league in the world. I'm not sure what entitled them to salary.

You think people go to see the Lakers play just because it's the Lakers? After all, the history, the venue, etc. Or are they paying big money to watch LeBron James and Anthony Davis, for example. And last time I checked, the history became the history because of names like Wilt-West-Kareem-Magic-Shaq-Kobe, etc. The history didn't just magically appear out of thin air.

The entire reason athletic programs across the country are valued as high as they are is because they produce national championship teams. Those teams are national championship teams because they have some of the best players in the world.

Showcasing yourself means what, exactly? You're still a major reason for a university raking in millions. The tv deals, endorsement/advertising deals, etc that schools get is because of the players that play for them. They are the biggest component of a multi-billion dollar industry.

[Bronbron23]

So? We agree they are paid, just like other students who get scholarships. The assumption that they are the ones that make the universities $$ is wrong. They are part of that, but there are other equally important parts like the deals the NCAA have, the system in place, the history and the venue. Besides, these athletes get what most other scholarships don't. They are given a chance to showcase themselves in one of most watched league in the world. I'm not sure what entitled them to salary.

Capitalism dude.

And they absolutely make the ncaa money. You can look it up. They have records of my much money schools make from specific areas you know.

[msbutthurt]

The problem with this is that so are other students who get scholarships. The difference is those students don't make universities hundreds of millions of dollars over the span of four years. And those students will likely have an opportunity to be able to tutor, teach, work, etc outside of their daily classes in order to supplement their income. Those students who are athletes won't have that opportunity.


That's one way of looking at it. I don't think Draymond was pointing the finger at racism on that one, but the social-circumstances of African American athletes is something of particular concern. Athletes risk everything and aren't guaranteed an NBA contract, which in end means neither they nor their families could end up benefiting.

So do other students on full-scholarships. Yet those students don't generate hundreds of millions of dollars worth of revenue for the university over the span of 4 years.



The other students getting scholarships not for sports are future creators and inventors that make everybody's life easier and also make tons of money for America, while creating jobs that give other people money as well.

College is for learning. Not throwing a ball at a hoop.

College isn't the one to blame for there being no minor league system.

College can't make players play for them and they pay for them to get a free education, housing, food.

If players don't want to play for a college and a free education isn't good enough, then don't go play for them. Pretty simple.

The NBA is the one who should create a minor league system to pay players that don't want an education instead of using college as their minor league system.

[msbutthurt]

they should absolutely be paid. The ncaa has been taking advantage of these athletes forever and it has nothing to do with color. They take advantage of white athletes too.

And no tuition and board isnt enough. That costs very little for these schools and they're making hundreds of millions of dollars.



So then the athletes shouldn't be athletes for them....

Nobody is making them go to college. If you don't want them to pay for your education, housing, food... don't go then.

College is for learning. The fact you can get a free education, housing, food for playing with a ball.... most students have to pay like 200 or 300k for that. And those students don't have people writing their papers and taking their test for them.

[HoopsNY]

So then the athletes shouldn't be athletes for them....

Nobody is making them go to college. If you don't want them to pay for your education, housing, food... don't go then

Then that will hurt the athletic programs, too. What you're saying isn't beneficial for the universities if their top athletes take an alternative route. Again, there is a reason athletic programs generate millions of dollars, and it isn't because they have a nice campus.


College is for learning. The fact you can get a free education, housing, food for playing with a ball.... most students have to pay like 200 or 300k for that. And those students don't have people writing their papers and taking their test for them.

And collegiate athletics involves no learning? Who made that assumption up? And again, students on full-academic scholarships don't generate the millions of dollars that universities get as a result of college athletes. The fact that you can't see the difference is appalling.

If a company hires two people, sends them abroad while paying for their housing, travel expenses, and work related expenses, but one person generates $100 million in sales while the other...well....doesn't. Should they both receive the same salary? If not, why?

Secondly, the fact that some athletes have others write their papers for them doesn't mean that all or even the majority do it. Such anecdotes are useless when looking at the broader spectrum. For one, if the athletes that did that, stopped doing it, would you then change your opinion about the issue? I doubt it.

[Kblaze8855]

They are actually being paid with free tuition, housing, great training facilities, great coaching, publicity, transport, etc. So lets not say they aren't being paid.


An athletic scholarship is just not the same thing as being paid. You in here listing transportation?

Paid is paid. Having somewhere to play the sport and a ride to the game isn’t being paid. Most athletes are never heard from. They don’t get publicity.

A scholarship isn’t “pay” any more when it’s athletic than academic. You’re there for the general prestige of the school. Them spending the other money required to acquire that prestige doesn’t mean you are being paid. The university of Texas makes 200 million a year off athletics. Them giving you rides to generate it is not payment and neither is a sip of Gatorade.

Its a business arrangement like any other but part of it is....we don’t pay you.

Yours is the line of thinking pushed by share cropping plantation owners claiming the many things required to keep former slaves alive and working were their own kinda payment. Payment taking the form of the things required to get the services they want from you isn’t payment. It’s an expense on their part. But it isn’t payment.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I wouldn't have a problem with the system if they were allowed to profit off of their image and likeness. I do still think they should be paid but where the NCAA crosses the line is not only are the elite players not paid what they're worth but they are actively prevented from getting that money from someone else. That is where the system just becomes hating.

[msbutthurt]

Then that will hurt the athletic programs, too. What you're saying isn't beneficial for the universities if their top athletes take an alternative route. Again, there is a reason athletic programs generate millions of dollars, and it isn't because they have a nice campus.



And collegiate athletics involves no learning? Who made that assumption up? And again, students on full-academic scholarships don't generate the millions of dollars that universities get as a result of college athletes. The fact that you can't see the difference is appalling.

If a company hires two people, sends them abroad while paying for their housing, travel expenses, and work related expenses, but one person generates $100 million in sales while the other...well....doesn't. Should they both receive the same salary? If not, why?

Secondly, the fact that some athletes have others write their papers for them doesn't mean that all or even the majority do it. Such anecdotes are useless when looking at the broader spectrum. For one, if the athletes that did that, stopped doing it, would you then change your opinion about the issue? I doubt it.



I appreciate your well thought out responses.


I do think there should be a minor league system and the NBA shouldn't stop people from playing because they aren't a year removed.


I believe in replacement players... and actors... musicians... walmart employees.... I think there will always be somebody willing to step up if somebody else doesn't want to do it. The product might be lesser but college fans tend to support their school and just want to hang out getting drunk together in the parking lot. So what I am saying is, the players should have a minor league system and college fans would support the players not good enough to play in the minor leagues because they support the college they go/went to no matter what. I'm not sure you are taking into account how much money it costs to run sports. Arena maintenance has to cost a ton. Paying vendors has to cost a ton. Coaches cost money. Jerseys. Equipment. There are a lot of expenses... so if the player getting 200k for an education, housing, food isn't enough... how much do you want them to be paid on top of 200k or 300k to go to school and learn? And why are colleges to blame?

[HoopsNY]

I appreciate your well thought out responses.

You're very welcome. And likewise for the dialogue. : )


I do think there should be a minor league system and the NBA shouldn't stop people from playing because they aren't a year removed.

This is beyond the scope of the discussion, though. Consider the focus is on the NCAA and what they do.


I believe in replacement players... and actors... musicians... walmart employees.... I think there will always be somebody willing to step up if somebody else doesn't want to do it. The product might be lesser but college fans tend to support their school and just want to hang out getting drunk together in the parking lot.

Walmart employees are not highly skilled. We can't reduce the athletic play of a Zion Williamson or a Ja Morant, or Grant Hill and Michael Jordan, to that of a low skilled laborer. The situation just isn't congruent.

If you replace chef Masa with any other chef, do people still pay $500+ for the meal and pack that restaurant? Because that's what people currently pay. There is something to be said about value, creativity, and skill. Reducing what these players do to any actor, musician, or Walmart employee just isn't right.

You're failing to understand that it's part of a two sided affair. Those highly skilled players gaining employment elsewhere can and will attract viewers to those organizations that hire them, thus taking away from the bottomline of the NCAA. What I'm saying is that this isn't a recipe that the NCAA wants to start making.

Relying on "replacement" players might work for some schools, but certainly not all - especially the biggest and most achieving schools.


I'm not sure you are taking into account how much money it costs to run sports. Arena maintenance has to cost a ton. Paying vendors has to cost a ton. Coaches cost money. Jerseys. Equipment. There are a lot of expenses... so if the player getting 200k for an education, housing, food isn't enough... how much do you want them to be paid on top of 200k or 300k to go to school and learn? And why are colleges to blame?

I am. The $31 million in 2017 for Duke was their net income. This was after their expenses. And like Kblaze mentioned to you before, they aren't being paid. Is providing students leather seats in libraries "payment" or 21st century style chairs in lecture halls with big screen projectors "payment"? No. They're simply expenditures for the university.

[msbutthurt]

You're very welcome. And likewise for the dialogue. : )



This is beyond the scope of the discussion, though. Consider the focus is on the NCAA and what they do.



Walmart employees are not highly skilled. We can't reduce the athletic play of a Zion Williamson or a Ja Morant, or Grant Hill and Michael Jordan, to that of a low skilled laborer. The situation just isn't congruent.

If you replace chef Masa with any other chef, do people still pay $500+ for the meal and pack that restaurant? Because that's what people currently pay. There is something to be said about value, creativity, and skill. Reducing what these players do to any actor, musician, or Walmart employee just isn't right.

You're failing to understand that it's part of a two sided affair. Those highly skilled players gaining employment elsewhere can and will attract viewers to those organizations that hire them, thus taking away from the bottomline of the NCAA. What I'm saying is that this isn't a recipe that the NCAA wants to start making.

Relying on "replacement" players might work for some schools, but certainly not all - especially the biggest and most achieving schools.



I am. The $31 million in 2017 for Duke was their net income. This was after their expenses. And like Kblaze mentioned to you before, they aren't being paid. Is providing students leather seats in libraries "payment" or 21st century style chairs in lecture halls with big screen projectors "payment"? No. They're simply expenditures for the university.


People that pay $500 dollars for a meal are stupid in general. You can't equate them to the average person.

The thing about paying college athletes that make money.... don't you have to pay them all then? College baseball probably makes nothing. Softball definitely makes nothing. Then you've got stuff like rowing and golf.... So if one athlete gets paid, all the other athletes want to be paid too. Look how many players play on a college football team and baseball team and all the other sports. So you have to pay them all? The number would be astronomical. Impossible.

They should just pay professors less and pay high school teachers/elementary teachers more. Most college professors are useless anyways. College should be for a trait that matters and benefits society. Now... women's studies. People pay money for that. Sorry I went off topic a bit but people pay to learn about that. I never went to college by the way.

[Kblaze8855]

I wouldn't have a problem with the system if they were allowed to profit off of their image and likeness. I do still think they should be paid but where the NCAA crosses the line is not only are the elite players not paid what they're worth but they are actively prevented from getting that money from someone else. That is where the system just becomes hating.

Isnt that what it’s changing to? Just taking a few years?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Isnt that what it’s changing to? Just taking a few years?
I think so but I'm not seeing why they need to wait. In a few months they will most likely have a reason to suspend Duke for a few years if Williamson takes the stand. Are they going to do that for the sake of a rule they acknowledge the wrong of? That would be comic. Of course if they don't Louisville and a lot of other programs should be allowed to sue.

[HoopsNY]

People that pay $500 dollars for a meal are stupid in general. You can't equate them to the average person.

Why? The highest and rarest qualities of ingredients together with the most skilled chef plus high demand necessitates a higher price. It's simple supply and demand.

And you're right, just like you can't equate such people, the neither should replacement players, actors, or Walmart employees. You're overlooking the biggest aspects of this discussion - talent, athleticism, and skill.


The thing about paying college athletes that make money.... don't you have to pay them all then? College baseball probably makes nothing. Softball definitely makes nothing. Then you've got stuff like rowing and golf.... So if one athlete gets paid, all the other athletes want to be paid too. Look how many players play on a college football team and baseball team and all the other sports. So you have to pay them all? The number would be astronomical. Impossible.

Very possible. Do rowers generate the revenue that NCAA basketball players do? Then they shouldn't be paid the same. It's like women's soccer. If they're generating the revenue, then fine, pay them.

Look at WNBA players. Do they generate that kind of revenue? No. But are they paid the equivalent of NBA players? No.

[FultzNationRISE]

That's one way of looking at it. I don't think Draymond was pointing the finger at racism on that one, but the social-circumstances of African American athletes is something of particular concern. Athletes risk everything and aren't guaranteed an NBA contract, which in end means neither they nor their families could end up benefiting..


Thats a reasonable point.

Im neither for nor against them being paid. It’s really not my battle to fight. I just hear the “slave driver” analogy used so often in these arguments, and it’s bogus and really quite tired. But ofc that doesnt mean there arent legitimate reasons to believe athletes should be seeking a greater degree of compensation.

[Bronbron23]

So then the athletes shouldn't be athletes for them....

Nobody is making them go to college. If you don't want them to pay for your education, housing, food... don't go then.

College is for learning. The fact you can get a free education, housing, food for playing with a ball.... most students have to pay like 200 or 300k for that. And those students don't have people writing their papers and taking their test for them.

Well thats probably whats gonna happen if they dont start paying. More prospects are gonna go g league or europe. Then you'll see how fast these schools are willing to pay. Trust me what your proposing is a bluff on the ncaa stand point and thats the last thing they want

[FultzNationRISE]

I wouldn't have a problem with the system if they were allowed to profit off of their image and likeness. I do still think they should be paid but where the NCAA crosses the line is not only are the elite players not paid what they're worth but they are actively prevented from getting that money from someone else. That is where the system just becomes hating.

I think the issue is that as soon as you start involving money in any way, even indirectly, resources will start to concentrate and the schools with the greatest connections and resources will start monopolizing talent. It’s simply unavoidable. So long as it’s “technically prohibited” schools have to at least keep it more low key. Which doesnt eliminate the problem but it does reduce it.

If they straight up make it open-season for pimping one’s brand, players will start having agents in college, and theyll start holding out of practices and making demands etc and it will simply become a pro league. Teams will be competitive entirely according to how much marketing clout the university has. Nothing else will be relevant for players considering where to play.

Again, I dont actually care and I dont even watch college sports. Im mainly just interested in how the arguments go.

[HoopsNY]

I think the issue is that as soon as you start involving money in any way, even indirectly, resources will start to concentrate and the schools with the greatest connections and resources will start monopolizing talent. It’s simply unavoidable. So long as it’s “technically prohibited” schools have to at least keep it more low key. Which doesnt eliminate the problem but it does reduce it.

If they straight up make it open-season for pimping one’s brand, players will start having agents in college, and theyll start holding out of practices and making demands etc and it will simply become a pro league. Teams will be competitive entirely according to how much marketing clout the university has. Nothing else will be relevant for players considering where to play.

Again, I dont actually care and I dont even watch college sports. Im mainly just interested in how the arguments go.

True, though we already see that happening in a way. I'm sure Michigan State has a bigger budget to scout players than a lot of other schools, for example.

And in the end, the schools only have a limited number of spots on a roster, anyhow. Other schools would offer pay and an opportunity for the athlete to have a real chance at the NBA as opposed to just sitting on the bench at UNC.

[FultzNationRISE]

True, though we already see that happening in a way. I'm sure Michigan State has a bigger budget to scout players than a lot of other schools, for example.

And in the end, the schools only have a limited number of spots on a roster, anyhow. Other schools would offer pay and an opportunity for the athlete to have a real chance at the NBA as opposed to just sitting on the bench at UNC.


Maybe so. We’ll have to see what happens.

I think itd be cool to see more people get a piece of that revenue pie. I just dont agree with politicians playing dictator on the matter as some sort of public image ploy.

But of course... that’s how politics works.

[msbutthurt]

Why? The highest and rarest qualities of ingredients together with the most skilled chef plus high demand necessitates a higher price. It's simple supply and demand.

And you're right, just like you can't equate such people, the neither should replacement players, actors, or Walmart employees. You're overlooking the biggest aspects of this discussion - talent, athleticism, and skill.



Very possible. Do rowers generate the revenue that NCAA basketball players do? Then they shouldn't be paid the same. It's like women's soccer. If they're generating the revenue, then fine, pay them.

Look at WNBA players. Do they generate that kind of revenue? No. But are they paid the equivalent of NBA players? No.


WNBA shouldn't even exist. It loses money.


People can pay $500 dollars food if they want... but those same people complaining that other people are poor, they are giving their money to rich people and no food is worth $500 dollars. They shouldn't complain about people being poor but then give their money to rich people and flying in private jets just to go party. Actions speak louder than words. A lot of these rich people complain that other people are poor but then they just give their money to other rich people. Lebron carries like a 500 hundred dollar pures when a 20 dollar purse would have been just as efficient. Louis Vuitton. Coach. Nike. It's their choice to give their money to them, I'm fine with that. But if they turn around and complain people are poor... they are the ones giving their money to other rich people for a stupid symbol to show they own something that cost more. And again, no food is worth 500 dollars.


Rowers shouldn't be paid the same.... because college players shouldn't be paid. College is not a job, it's a choice. The school pays for their college when they give them scholarships. If you want the college to pay players, then it's no longer a school. If you want to pay the players, then they shouldn't get a scholarship, housing, food and they should have to use that money to pay to go to college. College costs a lot of money and people pay to go there so they can get a better job. If the school is already covering the cost for you, that saves you like 200 or 300 thousand dollars and you never had to go in debt to go to college like most people do. People go into college having to pay a debt in return, with interest, just to get a better high paying job. The fact you can go to college and pay nothing out of pocket, that's a huge start in life. So if people don't want to go to college, they shouldn't go to college. The NBA should create a minor league system. College is for learning despite the fact they offer sports. Should high school and middle school athletes be paid as well?

[msbutthurt]

Well thats probably whats gonna happen if they dont start paying. More prospects are gonna go g league or europe. Then you'll see how fast these schools are willing to pay. Trust me what your proposing is a bluff on the ncaa stand point and thats the last thing they want



Good. That's what they should do.


If owners... or even players... wanted to pay for a minor league system, there would have already been one. Baseball has 3 minor league systems before pros and there are like 30 players on each team. Why can't basketball do it?


Blaming college is not the correct answer. At least not in my opinion.

[iamgine]

You think people go to see the Lakers play just because it's the Lakers? After all, the history, the venue, etc. Or are they paying big money to watch LeBron James and Anthony Davis, for example. And last time I checked, the history became the history because of names like Wilt-West-Kareem-Magic-Shaq-Kobe, etc. The history didn't just magically appear out of thin air.

The entire reason athletic programs across the country are valued as high as they are is because they produce national championship teams. Those teams are national championship teams because they have some of the best players in the world.

Showcasing yourself means what, exactly? You're still a major reason for a university raking in millions. The tv deals, endorsement/advertising deals, etc that schools get is because of the players that play for them. They are the biggest component of a multi-billion dollar industry.
That's what I said, they are part of the reason. Just don't overestimate their value. People still see the Knicks despite them not having Lebron James. I see some schools having many fans despite them sucking and having no name players. Just because you're part of the reason they make money, doesn't make you entitled to salary.

[iamgine]

An athletic scholarship is just not the same thing as being paid. You in here listing transportation?

Paid is paid. Having somewhere to play the sport and a ride to the game isn’t being paid. Most athletes are never heard from. They don’t get publicity.

A scholarship isn’t “pay” any more when it’s athletic than academic. You’re there for the general prestige of the school. Them spending the other money required to acquire that prestige doesn’t mean you are being paid. The university of Texas makes 200 million a year off athletics. Them giving you rides to generate it is not payment and neither is a sip of Gatorade.

Its a business arrangement like any other but part of it is....we don’t pay you.

Yours is the line of thinking pushed by share cropping plantation owners claiming the many things required to keep former slaves alive and working were their own kinda payment. Payment taking the form of the things required to get the services they want from you isn’t payment. It’s an expense on their part. But it isn’t payment.
Um, when you are getting something out of it, it means you're being compensated. And athletes are being compensated with their scholarship and the all the facilities they get. Payment takes many forms.

The crop plantation owner is correct. If the slave is willing to trade his energy for housing, food, protection etc, then it is payment. The problem is many slaves were forced into it, raped, kept in inhumane conditions, treated badly and seen as less than human. These are not the case with these athletes.

[msbutthurt]

I think the issue is that as soon as you start involving money in any way, even indirectly, resources will start to concentrate and the schools with the greatest connections and resources will start monopolizing talent. It’s simply unavoidable. So long as it’s “technically prohibited” schools have to at least keep it more low key. Which doesnt eliminate the problem but it does reduce it.

If they straight up make it open-season for pimping one’s brand, players will start having agents in college, and theyll start holding out of practices and making demands etc and it will simply become a pro league. Teams will be competitive entirely according to how much marketing clout the university has. Nothing else will be relevant for players considering where to play.

Again, I dont actually care and I dont even watch college sports. Im mainly just interested in how the arguments go.




Exactly.



Colleges have a lot of former rich member donors that pay a lot of money to the school for athletics.

Nike CEO is a former Oregon Duck that gives the school a lot of money for sports and recruiting.

Cleveland Browns owners is a former Tennessee Vounteer that gives the school a lot of money for sports and recruiting.

Oklahoma State. T Boon Pickens.

Arkansas. The Waltons(Walmart)



Teams with the richest donors will just dominate recruiting by paying players. And popular schools in general will just get the best rated players for more recognition. Nike can pay you to just do it and go to the school that Nike thinks will make Nike the most money.

[Kblaze8855]

Having a place to play a sport is not compensation. Are you serious right now? Schools need a gym. Coaches. They need the players to not die of exposure. Being kept alive and having a place built to play to generate revenue is not being paid. My job provides me a place to work and all the related things I need to produce for them. Doesn’t mean if they stopped giving me money they can call the time I spend under their roof, enjoying the ac, free coffee, and facilities payment.

Payment is payment.

[bobopenguin]

i have a question, why american loves to watch college sport? if u guys are so crazy about iner-school matches, why not support high school sports? primary school sports? what about local community sport matches?

[Bronbron23]

Good. That's what they should do.


If owners... or even players... wanted to pay for a minor league system, there would have already been one. Baseball has 3 minor league systems before pros and there are like 30 players on each team. Why can't basketball do it?


Blaming college is not the correct answer. At least not in my opinion.

its not about blaming them. They had a good run. They profited billions of dollars off of college athletes over the last 70 plus years. Cant say i blame them. If you can do it and convince everyone its ok then all the power to you. The world is a different place now though. Sheep are slowly starting to wake up and take control of the narrative.

[iamgine]

Having a place to play a sport is not compensation. Are you serious right now? Schools need a gym. Coaches. They need the players to not die of exposure. Being kept alive and having a place built to play to generate revenue is not being paid. My job provides me a place to work and all the related things I need to produce for them. Doesn’t mean if they stopped giving me money they can call the time I spend under their roof, enjoying the ac, free coffee, and facilities payment.

Payment is payment.
I guess you're not a business owner but perks are counted as compensation too. Have you ever heard people compare, company A gives much better salary, but company B gives great perks like much higher health insurance, a car with driver, housing, many job related-training.

[Kblaze8855]

I guess you're not a business owner but perks are counted as compensation too. Have you ever heard people compare, company A gives much better salary, but company B gives great perks like much higher health insurance, a car with driver, housing, many job related-training.

At a job. Which pays...

Try to spot the difference.

Calling an arena to play in payment for playing is one of the worst takes I may have ever seen.

[iamgine]

At a job. Which pays...

Try to spot the difference.

Calling an arena to play in payment for playing is one of the worst takes I may have ever seen.
I guess you're just being dense. How can anyone not agree that payment take many forms. Housing, tuition, coaching, facilities; those are compensation. In business, employees are willing to forgo more money for them.

[Kblaze8855]

If I shoot arrows for a school they are not paying me by having a spot set aside to shoot them before a tournament that makes them money. The area to shoot arrows isn't for me. It's to facilitate what they want. I'm a tool just like the arrows they provide. You know what?

I'm in the parking lot of an emergency vet with this girl who rushed us here because her dog suddenly wouldn't get up....and then did again. I've been here for 2 hours. That is gonna take all the patience I have right now so I'm not gonna be able to explain any more why a show dog isn't being paid in haircuts. Talk to you tomorrow.

[iamgine]

If I shoot arrows for a school they are not paying me by having a spot set aside to shoot them before a tournament that makes them money. The area to shoot arrows isn't for me. It's to facilitate what they want. I'm a tool just like the arrows they provide. You know what?

I'm in the parking lot of an emergency vet with this girl who rushed us here because her dog suddenly wouldn't get up....and then did again. I've been here for 2 hours. That is gonna take all the patience I have right now so I'm not gonna be able to explain any more why a show dog isn't being paid in haircuts. Talk to you tomorrow.
Uh even if they give you money, it's also to facilitate what they want. You're still the tool. But the money compensate you. Just like you shooting in the tournament compensate you by raising your name in the archery world and give you experience. Plus tuition. Plus housing. Plus coaching. Plus access to great facilities.

Hope all goes well with the dog. I've been thinking of getting a Shiba Inu soon.

[msbutthurt]

its not about blaming them. They had a good run. They profited billions of dollars off of college athletes over the last 70 plus years. Cant say i blame them. If you can do it and convince everyone its ok then all the power to you. The world is a different place now though. Sheep are slowly starting to wake up and take control of the narrative.


Communism...



And what you're seeing in the streets doesn't reflect the silent majority staying inside and watching it happen on tv. In fact, the way people are acting right now is how Donguy won the first time when Hilldoe was polling higher. Everyone and every poll thought it was a guaranteed win. Sorry I spoke about poll-itics directly. I have no desire to get into that discussion. But what you think looks like a lot of people in the streets, I see what the majority of people online have to say from both sides. Most people have been staying inside for covid and just like the last time, they don't agree this time. Plus, if they were to publicly speak, some hate mob would do everything to get them fired and take their ability to make money. I'm straight up telling you that the majority just isn't speaking right now, they are just watching people shoot their own party in the foot and they will privately vote.

[msbutthurt]

i have a question, why american loves to watch college sport? if u guys are so crazy about iner-school matches, why not support high school sports? primary school sports? what about local community sport matches?


People do. People fill gyms for high school games. Parents from the school. Students from the school. Locals from the community. They fill the gym to watch them play and support the school in their community. But the product is pretty low quality so it's not going to be popularized.

By searching it says "26,407 public secondary schools, and 10,693 private secondary schools"

But in college there are only like 300 division 1 teams which are clearly better than high school athletes. And most colleges have a larger student body. Lots of high schools on have a couple hundred students whereas the big colleges with better athletes have thousands of students. How are you going to follow 30 thousand different high school teams? It's a different setup because there are fewer college teams to follow and the competition is better.

Plus, you can tailgate and drink in the parking lot for college sports. In high school sports, you're not going to see people getting drunk to hang out. College sports is just a party gameday to a lot of people that want to hangout.

[Norcaliblunt]

Lmao. They do get paid. Under the table.

[Bronbron23]

Communism...



And what you're seeing in the streets doesn't reflect the silent majority staying inside and watching it happen on tv. In fact, the way people are acting right now is how Donguy won the first time when Hilldoe was polling higher. Everyone and every poll thought it was a guaranteed win. Sorry I spoke about poll-itics directly. I have no desire to get into that discussion. But what you think looks like a lot of people in the streets, I see what the majority of people online have to say from both sides. Most people have been staying inside for covid and just like the last time, they don't agree this time. Plus, if they were to publicly speak, some hate mob would do everything to get them fired and take their ability to make money. I'm straight up telling you that the majority just isn't speaking right now, they are just watching people shoot their own party in the foot and they will privately vote.

well i wasnt really talking about the riots although i guess yhar does apply somewhat. Even before the riots and stuff there are just more people aware of the b.s that surrounds them. They ask more questions and dont just accept the b.s that is fed to them by the powers at be.

Thar said theres still lots of sheep or people who know better but just chose the blue pill because its easier.

[HoopsNY]

That's what I said, they are part of the reason. Just don't overestimate their value. People still see the Knicks despite them not having Lebron James. I see some schools having many fans despite them sucking and having no name players.

That's because the Knicks are living off of the mystique of Madison Square Garden and New York City. Not to mention, they can't continue at this rate. Look at the Knicks' attendance rank since 2013:

2014: 3rd
2015: 4th
2016: 5th
2017: 5th
2018: 9th
2019: 9th
2020: 10th

With the main attraction (Carmelo Anthony) leaving, the Knicks are dropping consistently. This is my point. You can't sustain attendance numbers if you're not going to produce the best and brightest talent.

Also, the Knicks had their lowest attendance for a game in 13 years back in March. So clearly the tides are changing.


Just because you're part of the reason they make money, doesn't make you entitled to salary.

Imagine if everyone thought that way!

[HoopsNY]

WNBA shouldn't even exist. It loses money.

So imagine what would happen if these schools lose their best and brightest talent. They would....gain?....money? My point is that letting them go elsewhere isn't a good option for anyone.


People can pay $500 dollars food if they want... but those same people complaining that other people are poor, they are giving their money to rich people and no food is worth $500 dollars.

Wealth is relative. I'm pretty sure the people who are eating at Masa are mostly the rich and the elite. But it's also simply supply and demand. People spend $5,000 to sit court-side at an NBA game. Are we really going to go down that rabbit hole?

Anyway, I'm not here to discuss people's personal choices. My point about that was the culinary artistry and high quality ingredients that chef Masa brings to the table, literally.

You cannot devalue it because YOU don't appreciate it. And to equate culinary artistry with Walmart employees is like comparing my son's lego formations to the Egyptian pyramids. Clearly the two are not equal.


Rowers shouldn't be paid the same.... because college players shouldn't be paid.

Rowers shouldn't be paid the same....because they don't generate anywhere near as much money.


College is not a job, it's a choice.

Insert the first clause with, "My place of work is not a job," and you'll see why your argument is one big mess and a circular argument. Surely you CHOSE to work wherever it is that you do. It doesn't make it anymore egregious should your employer choose to slash your salary or not pay you at all in the midst of increasing revenues.


The school pays for their college when they give them scholarships. If you want the college to pay players, then it's no longer a school.

I disagree. Colleges and universities offer free tuition to maintenance staff and workers all the time. Why is this any different?


If you want to pay the players, then they shouldn't get a scholarship, housing, food and they should have to use that money to pay to go to college. College costs a lot of money and people pay to go there so they can get a better job. If the school is already covering the cost for you, that saves you like 200 or 300 thousand dollars and you never had to go in debt to go to college like most people do. People go into college having to pay a debt in return, with interest, just to get a better high paying job. The fact you can go to college and pay nothing out of pocket, that's a huge start in life. So if people don't want to go to college, they shouldn't go to college.

Again, irrelevant. Students receive full-paid scholarships all the time. Those students do not generate millions of dollars for the universities. One group of students gets to seek an education, seek employment outside of school, on a full scholarship, while the other doesn't get to seek employment AND helps to generate millions? Clearly the two are not equal.


The NBA should create a minor league system. College is for learning despite the fact they offer sports. Should high school and middle school athletes be paid as well?

This is a red herring. For one, we're not discussing the NBA. We're discussing the NCAA. They are two different entities. Secondly, not every great college athlete enters the draft or gets selected in the NBA draft. So where's the payout?

[HoopsNY]

Um, when you are getting something out of it, it means you're being compensated. And athletes are being compensated with their scholarship and the all the facilities they get. Payment takes many forms.

The crop plantation owner is correct. If the slave is willing to trade his energy for housing, food, protection etc, then it is payment. The problem is many slaves were forced into it, raped, kept in inhumane conditions, treated badly and seen as less than human. These are not the case with these athletes.

Imagine doctors being employed by a hospital network......with no hospital or medical equipment.

Imagine a system's administrator employed by a company.....with no servers or virtualization tools.

Imagine a teacher employed by a school district......with no school building.

See why your argument about "facilities" is odd?

[sdot_thadon]

I can see both sides of the debate here, they are getting paid per se with a free education and the expenses related to it, so perhaps they shouldn't get a salary. However they should have full rights to use their stardom to create income just like any other student. That would be fair enough. I get that the schools make a ton of money off these kids and perhaps there needs to be a compensation of some sort. Outright as a paycheck just doesn't sound right for a student imo.

[Bronbron23]

I can see both sides of the debate here, they are getting paid per se with a free education and the expenses related to it, so perhaps they shouldn't get a salary. However they should have full rights to use their stardom to create income just like any other student. That would be fair enough. I get that the schools make a ton of money off these kids and perhaps there needs to be a compensation of some sort. Outright as a paycheck just doesn't sound right for a student imo.

But it sounds right for everyone else to get outright paychecks off of students? That sounds much worse imo

[Shogon]

>Have a fully guaranteed education through and through even if I get injured and stop providing any type of benefit to the school whatsoever
>Get guaranteed housing and books
>Get to **** basically my choice of the litter on a college campus
>Get access to elite trainers and equipment
>Get paid under the table anyways



Waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Truthfully though? I don't care. It's all so tiresome. The only thing that needs to change is "get paid under the table" so everyone can just shut the **** up about it all.

[Bronbron23]

>Have a fully guaranteed education through and through even if I get injured and stop providing any type of benefit to the school whatsoever
>Get guaranteed housing and books
>Get to **** basically my choice of the litter on a college campus
>Get access to elite trainers and equipment
>Get paid under the table anyways



Waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Truthfully though? I don't care. It's all so tiresome. The only thing that needs to change is "get paid under the table" so everyone can just shut the **** up about it all.

You think anyone cares that you find it tiresome? And who are you to say a person shouldn't get paid there worth. Room and board is chicken scraps compared to what the schools are making. And 20 year old elite athletes dont need school to f*ck women. Specifically for us nuckas. We get the pick of the litter no matter where we go.

[msbutthurt]

HoopsNY


So imagine what would happen if these schools lose their best and brightest talent. They would....gain?....money? My point is that letting them go elsewhere isn't a good option for anyone.


I understand the schools make money off the players but the players to me are no better than anybody else. I view college as a school and if the school wants you, they will give you the same scholarship for a reason. If players in football or basketball are paid to make more, then I could argue that there is no reason to give scholarships at all sports that don't generate money. So rowing or women's basketball shouldn't even get a scholarship. College is for school and just like middle school or high school, they offer sports as an option. High school and middle school make money off people buying tickets to attend the game and the concession stands but they aren't paid.



Wealth is relative. I'm pretty sure the people who are eating at Masa are mostly the rich and the elite. But it's also simply supply and demand. People spend $5,000 to sit court-side at an NBA game. Are we really going to go down that rabbit hole?

Anyway, I'm not here to discuss people's personal choices. My point about that was the culinary artistry and high quality ingredients that chef Masa brings to the table, literally.


You cannot devalue it because YOU don't appreciate it. And to equate culinary artistry with Walmart employees is like comparing my son's lego formations to the Egyptian pyramids. Clearly the two are not equal.

I agree. If that's what people want to spend their money on, I'm happy for them. It's their right as free human beings. But it's just weird when they get on their pedestal and want people with way less money to pay more taxes for other people as if most of them are actually helping poor people. Instead, they give their money right back to the rich. They could just donate more money to poor people if that's what they actually care about. Plus, you get tax breaks when you do donate.



Rowers shouldn't be paid the same....because they don't generate anywhere near as much money.

College students they give scholarships all get the same because it's a school. Nobody forced them to go. I understand college sports are a business but it pays for a lot of the other kids to get an education and pay the overpriced professors. If you view college as a business, it isn't technically a business. It's supposed to help improve the future and give people a chance for a brighter future through academics and learnign.


Insert the first clause with, "My place of work is not a job," and you'll see why your argument is one big mess and a circular argument. Surely you CHOSE to work wherever it is that you do. It doesn't make it anymore egregious should your employer choose to slash your salary or not pay you at all in the midst of increasing revenues.

Because college is trying to help everybody get a better job. The only downside is half the crap people are learning isn't actually that useful. Or you have to take classes in stuff that isn't actually related to the field you're entering in any way. I think that's where they rip students off the most.

[msbutthurt]

Again, irrelevant. Students receive full-paid scholarships all the time. Those students do not generate millions of dollars for the universities. One group of students gets to seek an education, seek employment outside of school, on a full scholarship, while the other doesn't get to seek employment AND helps to generate millions? Clearly the two are not equal.

Then create a minor league system. How many people are watching Single A, Double A, Triple A baseball? It exists mostly for players that chose to play baseball over a college degree.


This is a red herring. For one, we're not discussing the NBA. We're discussing the NCAA. They are two different entities. Secondly, not every great college athlete enters the draft or gets selected in the NBA draft. So where's the payout?

The payout was a college degree that will get them a higher paying job in the future since they couldn't play in the NBA. Or the minor league system of the NBA if they created a better one.

Does a person with a high school degree usually make as much as a person with a college degree? Not usually. And most people had to go into huge debt to get that degree to get the higher paying job. People on scholarships don't have to go into debt.[/QUOTE]

I understand your reasoning. I think it's cool you will discuss things rationally, there are many people that won't. And to be honest... if college decides to pay players, I don't actually care all that much. But it's not exactly school anymore if they do. If they want to pay players, good for them. But it will hurt the product. Players will just go to the highest paying schools creating an even more lopsided league.


Adding to that.... another thing athletes get are top training and coaching. If you can to an SEC school in football, that's already an advantage to getting into the NFL. If you could go to Duke or North Carolina for basketball, the coaches gave you a better chance of getting into the NBA. Raymond Felton or Marvin Williams or whoever might not get into the NBA without those coaches and strength and conditioning. So getting the best coaching possible also adds value to the scholarship a player chose over the others.


There is a reason Nick Saban makes so much money. He wins by getting players into the NFL. If you go to Akron and play for whoever their coach is, your chances of NFL are a lot lower. Plus, at the smaller schools, those players make way less money for their schools than the bigger schools.

Should Alabama pay $7,000 to players and Akron pay $300 dollars to players? One is not like the other when it comes to how much the players generate for their school. As a fan of sports, I wouldn't watch Akron unless they somehow became really good. I don't like Alabama but they are good so I will watch them.

[msbutthurt]

Sorry I replied in two posts. It wouldn't let me because it was two long.


But anyways... if rowers shouldn't be paid the same as basketball players because they make less. Then shouldn't Akron players make less than Alabama players because Akron would generate less money in football than Alabama does. You might as well just kick out like 200 of the 300 football teams because it would be so lopsided that it's pointless. Alabama players would make more by your logic because they generate more money, so why would top players not choose the schools offering more money based on the money the generate? That really is a minor league system and not a college school in that case.

[msbutthurt]

I can see both sides of the debate here, they are getting paid per se with a free education and the expenses related to it, so perhaps they shouldn't get a salary. However they should have full rights to use their stardom to create income just like any other student. That would be fair enough. I get that the schools make a ton of money off these kids and perhaps there needs to be a compensation of some sort. Outright as a paycheck just doesn't sound right for a student imo.


That's better than paying a student.

It would still make the game even more lopsided. Top players will choose the schools that get the most games on television. So smaller schools or big schools with less recognition will not get any top players ever. I think there is something to be said for coaching making a difference on top of the free education. The top coaching staffs get players into the pros more than lesser coaches on average. It makes a difference in getting to play under Nick Saban coaching staff and Alabama facilities over playing under some random coaching staff with lesser facilities. So there is also value to getting to play with a better coaching staff and top facilities.

I hate Alabama as a football team by the way. But I recognize how great Saban's coaching staff is and how great their facilities are.

[baudkarma]

I'd be happy if the NCAA would just let college athletes accept compensation from outside sources. Let the kid sign an endorsement deal with Nike, or make a TV commercial for a local car dealership, or hell, just accept a flat out cash payment from wealthy alumni for attending their school.

Texas A&M has a training facility that cost $9 million to build, all paid for by donations to the athletic department. A&M former students are trying to give their alma mater an edge when it comes to recruiting high school players. Why not let those alums just scratch out a check directly to that 4-star recruit?

[baudkarma]

They are actually being paid with free tuition, housing, great training facilities, great coaching, publicity, transport, etc. So lets not say they aren't being paid.

But if we want to talk they are not paid enough, then that's a supply - demand question. I'd encourage them to get into G-League, streetball or overseas league if they feel like that can compensate them better than the NCAA. This will also huge pressure the NCAA to compensate athletes more. But to say that NCAA should start paying salary because "they make money off these athletes" is just dumb.

Saying that something is "free" implies that is is obtained with little or no effort. Just because you don't pay cash for something doesn't make it free. College athletes put in many, many hours of practice, physical training, film room sessions, and travel. They are expected to attend off-season workouts. They may be subject to curfews or dress codes. They physical demands on them put them at a higher risk of injury. That's hardly what I would consider "free".

And your supply and demand example is misleading. There's much less demand for G-league or overseas players than there is for Div 1 college players. If it was truly a free market, how much money would an alumni group from, say, UCLA be willing to pay a top high school player to attend and play for their school? How much would Texas alums be willing to pay the top QB prospect in the country to come to Austin?

[BigShotBob]

As a former football collegiate athlete I am actually split on this issue.

When I was in college I rarely had free time. Between classes, studying, practice (two a days), then you add weight training, study hall (mandatory study hall for athletes to catch us up around game time), tutoring (because you will fall behind), travel, I couldn't even walk off campus half of the time. Hell professional athletes have more free time.

It was like a full time job, or being in a minor league, without any of the pay or benefits. Dudes dropping out left and right trying to get a shot at the NFL, but I wised up before I got a serious injury (I hurt my back) and plus I had a daughter on the way and I couldn't blow providing a good life for an NFL pipe dream. So yes, a little compensation for my hard work would have been nice.

But on the other hand this could easily be abused. Pros argue about money and playing time, imagine what college students would do. Then you factor in agents and endorsements then now we're talking about paying and bribing high school students to go to a certain program (this already happens but it'll be even worse) then sports betting on college games since now we've introduced money into it and there are some many doors that this can open up for good or ill.

I think a flat amount for every college athlete regardless of their popularity would be a good start, and allowing them to accept endorsements from outside sources helps as long as it isn't dirty money (you know like what politicians accept from lobbyists).

[scuzzy]

As a former football collegiate athlete I am actually split on this issue.

When I was in college I rarely had free time. Between classes, studying, practice (two a days), then you add weight training, study hall (mandatory study hall for athletes to catch us up around game time), tutoring (because you will fall behind), travel, I couldn't even walk off campus half of the time. Hell professional athletes have more free time.

It was like a full time job, or being in a minor league, without any of the pay or benefits. Dudes dropping out left and right trying to get a shot at the NFL, but I wised up before I got a serious injury (I hurt my back) and plus I had a daughter on the way and I couldn't blow providing a good life for an NFL pipe dream. So yes, a little compensation for my hard work would have been nice.

But on the other hand this could easily be abused. Pros argue about money and playing time, imagine what college students would do. Then you factor in agents and endorsements then now we're talking about paying and bribing high school students to go to a certain program (this already happens but it'll be even worse) then sports betting on college games since now we've introduced money into it and there are some many doors that this can open up for good or ill.

I think a flat amount for every college athlete regardless of their popularity would be a good start, and allowing them to accept endorsements from outside sources helps as long as it isn't dirty money (you know like what politicians accept from lobbyists).
My junior and senior year at Ohio University I stayed in a house, 3 of the guys that lived their were athletes on scholarship (2 football, 1 wrestler). All three of them dredded playing sports but had to to get school paid for.

They all said the same thing overworked and exhausted. Most of their down time was spent on PS3 because they rarely could go out and bar hop. Their college experience was wayyyy different than most, a real time job

Nevertheless all three had p*ssy flinging at them non stop, wild groupie love 24/7