Jerry West is one of the best finals players ever

[StrongLurk]

And if you want to combine the pre-modern era with the modern era...then he'd be the 3d best SG ever.

10 year prime of 29/6/7 on great percentages, especially compared to the era he played in. Most 30-point NBA Finals games ever at 31 (next closest is MJ at 23).

The...logo.

[SouBeachTalents]

The biggest irony too is that the one Finals he won was by far his worst performance :lol

[Axe]

That's why he didn't become fmvp at 34 y.o.

[warriorfan]

Why do you think they made him the logo?

[Mask the Embiid]

And if you want to combine the pre-modern era with the modern era...then he'd be the 3d best SG ever.

10 year prime of 29/6/7 on great percentages, especially compared to the era he played in. Most 30-point NBA Finals games ever at 31 (next closest is MJ at 23).

The...logo.

dang, he's like yalls steph curry or something

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I feel like Walt Frazier owned him in every finals they met. 1970 finals game 7 in particular, Frazier picked West from dribbling the ball up the court like it was nothing.

West also never found a way to win enough finals, 1-8 record wow?

[StrongLurk]

I feel like Walt Frazier owned him in every finals they met. 1970 finals game 7 in particular, Frazier picked West from dribbling the ball up the court like it was nothing.

West also never found a way to win enough finals, 1-8 record wow?

Every all time great, except maybe MJ, has been "outplayed" at some point against another all-time great in the playoffs. So your first point is meaningless.

Your second point is also meaningless as basketball is not a one-on-one sport. Winning is not the main focus of discussion when looking at individual players. Winning is the main focus when discussing TEAMS.

[Roundball_Rock]

He is underrated. His RS numbers rival Kobe's (his finals numbers are clearly better than Kobe's) and crush Wade, Drexler (both who also didn't last nearly as long as a superstar as West did) and his resume is better than any SG outside of MJ, Kobe. He clearly should be considered the 3rd GOAT SG and borderline top 10 overall but era bias hurts him.

[Phoenix]

I was just watching the Lakers vs Knicks 72 finals game 5 earlier today. It's interesting watching some of the older guards like West at work. No overdribbling, no and-1 style carrying, just very simple and fundamental moves of taking 4-5 dribbles to a spot, a pump fake( West must have sent his man flying off camera with one like 5 times) and the shot is up. Plus the absence of the 3point line. Literally a different game than now in just about every way aesthetically. Layups were truly earned with the non-existent spacing.

[HoopsNY]

In those days, steals and blocks weren't recorded. By 1973, West's last season, they started tallying them. In 31 games he averaged 2.6 steals and 0.7 blks at the age of 35. It really makes you wonder what he putting up for the rest of his career. If West averaged 2.5 stls and 1.0 blks for his career, I think a lot of people would have him in their top 10.

[Marchesk]

In those days, steals and blocks weren't recorded. By 1973, West's last season, they started tallying them. In 31 games he averaged 2.6 steals and 0.7 blks at the age of 35. It really makes you wonder what he putting up for the rest of his career. If West averaged 2.5 stls and 1.0 blks for his career, I think a lot of people would have him in their top 10.

He likely averaged prime Stockton number of steals. It was a faster pace with more possessions, though. But a career 27/5.8/6.6 is top ten statistically. His playoff average of 29.1/5.6/6.3 is top 5 material. Thing is he also shot well above league average as SG. Very efficient for his day.

[Phoenix]

In those days, steals and blocks weren't recorded. By 1973, West's last season, they started tallying them. In 31 games he averaged 2.6 steals and 0.7 blks at the age of 35. It really makes you wonder what he putting up for the rest of his career. If West averaged 2.5 stls and 1.0 blks for his career, I think a lot of people would have him in their top 10.

Same with blocks. Hence why neither Russell or Wilt are the all time leader. They'd probably be getting credited for like 7-8 blocks a game if they were tracking in the 60s.

[Roundball_Rock]

He has top 10 statistics as is. These numbers are from his first and last all-NBA 1st team years as a loose proxy for prime:

West (62'-73') 28/6/7 48% FG, 56% TS
Kobe (01'-13') 28/6/5 45% FG, 56% TS

In the playoffs:

West (62'-73') 30/5/7 47% FG, 54% TS
Kobe (01'-12') 29/6/5 45% FG, 55% TS

In the finals:

West 31/5/6 46%
Kobe 25/6/5 41%

Statistically he is equal or slightly better than Kobe. He is hurt by era bias but also because he was never MVP or the best player in the league. The common thread of the players who consistently are in the top 10 is they all at some point were the best player in the league.

To me West and Oscar belong in the same tier as Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, etc. It is disrespectful that West is compared with (often unfavorably--we often hear Wade is the 3rd best SG of all-time) Wade, Drexler, Iverson when he is clearly better than them.

[StrongLurk]

He has top 10 statistics as is. These numbers are from his first and last all-NBA 1st team years as a loose proxy for prime:

West (62'-73') 28/6/7 48% FG, 56% TS
Kobe (01'-13') 28/6/5 45% FG, 56% TS

In the playoffs:

West (62'-73') 30/5/7 47% FG, 54% TS
Kobe (01'-12') 29/6/5 45% FG, 55% TS

In the finals:

West 31/5/6 46%
Kobe 25/6/5 41%

Statistically he is equal or slightly better than Kobe. He is hurt by era bias but also because he was never MVP or the best player in the league. The common thread of the players who consistently are in the top 10 is they all at some point were the best player in the league.

To me West and Oscar belong in the same tier as Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, etc. It is disrespectful that West is compared with (often unfavorably--we often hear Wade is the 3rd best SG of all-time) Wade, Drexler, Iverson when he is clearly better than them.

Great post. My thing is I NEVER compare pre-modern NBA players with anyone after 1980 (except Kareem). In my OP, I just mentioned that if we DO compare these players, then Jerry West should be 3rd all time behind Kobe. The biggest boost to Jerry is that he was way more efficient for his era from the guard position no less (Curry like for his era). Also West was very consistent as an elite scorer in the playoffs/finals.

I also don't rank players in order, but tiers and in separate general eras. I think it's impossible to compare Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Jerry, etc. with guys like MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, etc. The game is too different.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good points. Yeah, comparing across eras is tough. That is where accolades can be useful as you can use them to measure how a player was perceived relative to his era. There are limits even to that but it gives us some gauge across eras. For instance, we know West was considered the best or second best guard for a decade whereas Wade and Drexler combined for only 3 all-NBA first teams. We can use that to conclude West was better relative to the league than those guys were when they played, given the large gap between West and Wade/Drexler in that respect.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Every all time great, except maybe MJ, has been "outplayed" at some point against another all-time great in the playoffs. So your first point is meaningless.

Your second point is also meaningless as basketball is not a one-on-one sport. Winning is not the main focus of discussion when looking at individual players. Winning is the main focus when discussing TEAMS.

He was either losing to Celtics every year or getting outplayed by his point guard peers. There comes a point when an all time great player has to overcome the odds and win the series. At least one time! West never beat Celtics in a series one time.

There was only 9 teams and two rounds for the majority of the 1960s. West couldn't overcome that at least one time?

By the time West did actually win the title in 1972, he never beat Celtics. He also had a 38% FG.

Both West/Kareem failed to take advantage of a weak era. West never won a title in the 1960s when Russell was around. Kareem won a title only one time in the 1970s and that was when Jerry West was injured and didn't play.

[Horatio33]

I feel like Walt Frazier owned him in every finals they met. 1970 finals game 7 in particular, Frazier picked West from dribbling the ball up the court like it was nothing.

West also never found a way to win enough finals, 1-8 record wow?

West had two sprained thumbs in that game.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He is underrated. His RS numbers rival Kobe's (his finals numbers are clearly better than Kobe's) and crush Wade, Drexler (both who also didn't last nearly as long as a superstar as West did) and his resume is better than any SG outside of MJ, Kobe. He clearly should be considered the 3rd GOAT SG and borderline top 10 overall but era bias hurts him.

Kareem only won a title the year West was hurt. Another knock on Kareem. As soon as West came back in 1972, he booted Kareem out of the finals again.

[Shooter]

He lead his team in Finals scoring 5x

65, 66, 68, 69, 70

Kawhi has done this ONCE :lol

2019

[StrongLurk]

He was either losing to Celtics every year or getting outplayed by his point guard peers. There comes a point when an all time great player has to overcome the odds and win the series. At least one time! West never beat Celtics in a series one time.

There was only 9 teams and two rounds for the majority of the 1960s. West couldn't overcome that at least one time?

By the time West did actually win the title in 1972, he never beat Celtics. He also had a 38% FG.

Both West/Kareem failed to take advantage of a weak era. West never won a title in the 1960s when Russell was around. Kareem won a title only one time in the 1970s and that was when Jerry West was injured and didn't play.

Why don't you post on your 3ball account...oh wait that account is banned every week.

[Phoenix]

Why don't you post on your 3ball account...oh wait that account is banned every week.

That's a 3ball account? That poster seems hyper focused on Kawhi though.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He lead his team in Finals scoring 5x

65, 66, 68, 69, 70

Kawhi has done this ONCE :lol

2019

In 2014, Kawhi had the highest FG% for a finals MVP in history. Jerry West had 38% FG when he won his title.

Kawhi also hasn't lost to the same guy in 8 finals Hahahha. Does Russell scare West that badly? If you think about it, West kind of had a choking James Harden type shtick going on. 0-8 in his first finals wow.

Kawhi 2nd finals MVP he actually won the title. West won finals MVP even when his team lost? Lol that would never happen today. West only got that finals MVP because he's a white guy.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Why don't you post on your 3ball account...oh wait that account is banned every week.

I'm not 3 ball, I have argued with that guy on multiple occasions. I don't argue with myself hahaha. I also like Scottie Pippen and have praised him before.

[Phoenix]

I don't argue with myself hahaha.

That doesnt mean much on ISH though. We have a poster here who can singlehandedly carry a thread on 10 different alts.

[SouBeachTalents]

In 2014, Kawhi had the highest FG% for a finals MVP in history. Jerry West had 38% FG when he won his title.
He also had the 6th lowest ppg ever, and wasn't even the leading scorer on his team

[tpols]

Jerry West is a wierd in that i dont think he'd keep up with modern perimeter players as well as he used to, he wouldnt be as good, but OTOH his scouting talent is GOAT. he's obviously very smart, maybe he would adapt.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He also had the 6th lowest ppg ever, and wasn't even the leading scorer on his team


Kawhi was the main reason the spurs beat heat, they gave him the ball in game 3 and never looked back. 3 straight wins for spurs with Kawhi averaging 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG.

As far as being the teams leading scorer, Jerry West wasn't the leading scorer in his 1972 title either, Goodrich was.

Scoring gap on West/Goodrich: 5.8

Scoring gap on Kawhi/Parker: .2

Kawhi wins by 5.6 points.

[Shooter]

Imagine leading your team in scoring for 1 Finals

Cedric Maxwell, Jamaal Wilkes, Kawhi Leonard, Reggie Miller :lol

Only four more times to catch Kareem at 5

[Roundball_Rock]

The better team almost always wins in basketball. Why is this a shock? The Lakers were losing to superior teams. People act like upsets happen all the time. Even MJ didn't win unless he had an equal or better team.

[Marchesk]

He was either losing to Celtics every year or getting outplayed by his point guard peers. There comes a point when an all time great player has to overcome the odds and win the series. At least one time! West never beat Celtics in a series one time.

There was only 9 teams and two rounds for the majority of the 1960s. West couldn't overcome that at least one time?

Wilt only did it once and Oscar never did. That's just how good the Celtics were.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Imagine leading your team in scoring for 1 Finals

Cedric Maxwell, Jamaal Wilkes, Kawhi Leonard, Reggie Miller :lol

Only four more times to catch Kareem at 5

Kawhi has led a finals team in total BPM during three different years. Led a finals team in GmSc during two different years. All at the age of 27, that's outstanding.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The better team almost always wins in basketball. Why is this a shock? The Lakers were losing to superior teams. People act like upsets happen all the time. Even MJ didn't win unless he had an equal or better team.

0/8 though? How many times does he have to play Russell in order to figure him out for god sakes. Duncan beat Shaq/Kobe in 2003 when he had Stephen Jackson as his 2nd best player. If you're losing to different super teams every year, you may get a pass. Losing to the same guy over and over is inexcusable. West had year after year to figure out Bill Russell and he never could.

It was almost like it was a mental block for West to beat Celtics (in other words: choking).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wilt only did it once and Oscar never did. That's just how good the Celtics were.

Did they have the supporting casts that West did? West had Wilt on his team in 1969 and still lost to aging Bill Russell.

[SouBeachTalents]

Did they have the supporting casts that West did? West had Wilt on his team in 1969 and still lost to aging Bill Russell.
And West averaged 38/7 those Finals and dropped a 40 point triple double in Game 7. What more do you expect one player to do to win a series?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

And West averaged 38/7 those Finals and dropped a 40 point triple double in Game 7. What more do you expect one player to do to win a series?

I expect to actually win 1, that's all. He started out 0/8 and even lost with Wilt on his team. When he finally did win in 1972, he had an outstanding regular season but very poor playoffs (38% FG). All I'm saying is it seems like a Harden type resume in terms of playoff success. West is still respectable top 20-25 great. I would say prime Kawhi is a better overall player.

[Roundball_Rock]

And West averaged 38/7 those Finals and dropped a 40 point triple double in Game 7. What more do you expect one player to do to win a series?

Not everyone can win rings putting up 13/6/2. :oldlol:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not everyone can win rings putting up 13/6/2. :oldlol:


In 2014 finals for three straight wins Kawhi averaged 24PPG on 68% FG vs the 2 time defending champions, including a close out game which West never had vs Celtics. Kawhi also had to guard LeBron and that was a bigger defense challenge then West ever had to guard.

I like to see Jerry West win 3 straight including a closeout game vs Celtics and shoot 68% FG or is he going to choke again? Hahahah

[StrongLurk]

HBK still seems to think basketball is like Tennis. Yes, why couldn't this individual player just WIN in a team sport?

Of course when the individual in question is too good to really criticize, then all that's left is to act irrational.

I mean, why couldn't MJ just WIN when he put up 44/6/6 against the Celtics? What an idiot this MJ guy is.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

HBK still seems to think basketball is like Tennis. Yes, why couldn't this individual player just WIN in a team sport?

Of course when the individual in question is too good to really criticize, then all that's left is to act irrational.

I mean, why couldn't MJ just WIN when he put up 44/6/6 against the Celtics? What an idiot this MJ guy is.

Jordan eventually had title runs and eventually figured out the pistons. How come Jerry could never figure out the Celtics? He never really showed he can lead a team to a title in dominating fashion, that's my only knock on him. Always finding ways to lose big series like Harden. 1972 was a good but not great run and the rest of his great runs he always lost. I said arguably top 20-25 goat, how high do you want him?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1969 finals: "jerry you can't win a regular season MVP or a finals MVP 0-6. We will give you this finals MVP to prop you up. You at least need that, we're trying to make money off ya"

Is that what happened?

[Axe]

So jerry west sounds like an old lbj in that aspect, except that he and his team went ringless in the 60s.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So jerry west sounds like an old lbj in that aspect, except that he and his team went ringless in the 60s.

Yeah and when West finally won it, he didn't have an all time great run. If West had some reg season MVPS, the finals losses may be easier to swallow. He didn't even win 1 reg season MVP either.

[Axe]

Yeah and when West finally won it, he didn't have an all time great run. If West had some reg season MVPS, the finals losses may be easier to swallow. He didn't even win 1 reg season MVP either.
Despite the loss, his performance there will always be dubbed as remarkable. And being the leading player in several categories ain't an ordinary feat at all you know but sadly, the league will unanimously crown the fmvp to the remarkable player of the winning team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Despite the loss, his performance there will always be dubbed as remarkable. And being the leading player in several categories ain't an ordinary feat at all you know but sadly, the league will unanimously crown the fmvp to the remarkable player of the winning team.

It wasn't always because lack of help either. 1963 finals Baylor averaged 34/15/4 that's plenty of help.

I think if you think Jerry West is a top 10-15 GOAT, by default you have to believe Bill Russell is the #1 unanimous GOAT because Bill was always dominating Jerry.

[Axe]

It wasn't always because lack of help either. 1963 finals Baylor averaged 34/15/4 that's plenty of help.

I think if you think Jerry West is a top 10-15 GOAT, by default you have to believe Bill Russell is the #1 unanimous GOAT because Bill was always dominating Jerry.
I don't know. I don't like the lakers but he also helped to lead that team to at least 5 finals appearances. And when i said leading player, i was talking about lebron james, who became one during his last championship season and in 2018 if I'm not mistaken.

[FireDavidKahn]

Jerry West is so underrated as a player.

People forget he was an elite defender as well.

[FireDavidKahn]

I feel like Walt Frazier owned him in every finals they met. 1970 finals game 7 in particular, Frazier picked West from dribbling the ball up the court like it was nothing.

West also never found a way to win enough finals, 1-8 record wow?

West played against the Celtics who had something like 6+ HOF'ers on their team in damn near every finals.

He faced the toughest and most stacked competition in history

[FireDavidKahn]

In those days, steals and blocks weren't recorded. By 1973, West's last season, they started tallying them. In 31 games he averaged 2.6 steals and 0.7 blks at the age of 35. It really makes you wonder what he putting up for the rest of his career. If West averaged 2.5 stls and 1.0 blks for his career, I think a lot of people would have him in their top 10.

West was an elite defender in every sense of the word. The NBA all defense team only started in 1968-69 and West played for 6 more seasons (including that one). He was on the all defensive first team 4 times and all defensive second team 1 time.

5 selections to the all defense team in the final 6 years of his career.

Plus he was an underrated athlete.

West is a player that would be a top 5 player in any era with any set of rules.

[Shooter]

Not everyone can win rings putting up 13/6/2. :oldlol:

:lol

The Parker, Duncan, Manu effect

[HBK_Kliq_2]

:lol

The Parker, Duncan, Manu effect

2014 Duncan was still a worse player then 1969 Wilt. Kawhi averaged 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG in 3 straight wins to the title, did Jerry West ever do something similar to that with Wilt?

2010 Nash owned them in the 2nd round
2011 they were a 1st seed that lost to an 8th seed

Luckily they had Kawhi save their playoff woes.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

West played against the Celtics who had something like 6+ HOF'ers on their team in damn near every finals.

He faced the toughest and most stacked competition in history

Elgin B put up 34/15/4 in the 1963 finals, that's plenty of help.

[Axe]

:lol

The Parker, Duncan, Manu effect
There's nothing surprising about that, since iggy only started 4 games in the 2015 finals and averaged 16.3/4/5.8 but still became the fmvp.

[Shooter]

There's nothing surprising about that, since iggy only started 4 games in the 2015 finals and averaged 16.3/4/5.8 but still became the fmvp.

What's your definition of the word surprising? How was it not surprising when it's only happened probably two times?

Where the FMVP scores under 17 AND gets outscored by own teammate = Iggy, Kawhi

[Shooter]

2014 Duncan was still a worse player then 1969 Wilt. Kawhi averaged 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG in 3 straight wins to the title, did Jerry West ever do something similar to that with Wilt?

2010 Nash owned them in the 2nd round
2011 they were a 1st seed that lost to an 8th seed

Luckily they had Kawhi save their playoff woes.

Yes his 13 ppg was great

[FireDavidKahn]

Elgin B put up 34/15/4 in the 1963 finals, that's plenty of help.

Here's another rube that doesn't understand what context is. West had 1 other HOFer on that team (Elgin).

The Celtics he played against had 9.

[Round Mound]

Jerry West was the Stephen Curry of the 60s. He was the best mid range shooter of his era and was a better passer, rebounder and defender than Stephen Curry. With today's enfasis on 3s he would be evern more lethal as a shoter.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yes his 13 ppg was great

Bill Russell averaged 12PPG over the course of 3 titles (1964,68,69). Two of those titles he eliminated West. I guess that means Bill Russell sucked as well.

[Turbo Slayer]

The All-Defensive Team was introduced in 1969 when West was nearing the end of his prime. He was age 30 at that point. He made 2nd Team in the introduction of All-D and for the rest of his career (excluding his last season where he only played 31 games and he wasn't a starter at that point) he made 1st Team every year.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Here's another rube that doesn't understand what context is. West had 1 other HOFer on that team (Elgin).

The Celtics he played against had 9.

Sanders averaged 9 points, cousy and ramsey were washed up, KC Jones averaged 7 points and is in hall of fame cause his coaching/not playing.

You're the one who is missing the context.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The All-Defensive Team was introduced in 1969 when West was nearing the end of his prime. He was age 30 at that point. He made 2nd Team in the introduction of All-D and for the rest of his career (excluding his last season where he only played 31 games and he wasn't a starter at that point) he made 1st Team every year.

He was a godly regular season player but wet the bed in big moments. Kind of like the james harden of his era but with better defense. Am I wrong on this?

West finally got his in 1972- That's like if Harden keeps losing in playoffs all the way until like 2025 and finally wins a title averaging 38% FG with Embiid on his team or something like that.

[Shooter]

Bill Russell averaged 12PPG over the course of 3 titles (1964,68,69). Two of those titles he eliminated West. I guess that means Bill Russell sucked as well.

You seem very confused but I'm glad that you mentioned Bill Russell. He has actually LED his team in final scoring two years. Kawhi has only done this once, along with Cecric Maxwell and Reggie Miller and Jamaal Wilkes. He has a long way to go to pass Russell in scoring let alone other all-time greats. Keep digging though, he just might get there one day!

As for your other comments, nobody is giving Bill Russell 11 finals MVPs either, hence he doesn't get all of the credit. Neither should Kawhi. Case in point

[Turbo Slayer]

Sanders averaged 9 points, cousy and ramsey were washed up, KC Jones averaged 7 points and is in hall of fame cause his coaching/not playing.

You're the one who is missing the context.


Sanders averaged 9 points Sanders was a pretty good rebounder and a great defender too. Stating PPG doesn't tell us the full picture or story.


cousy and ramsey were washed up

Cousy (1959-1963): Made 3 All-NBA 1st teams and 2 All-NBA 2nd teams in that span. In the first 2 years he was 1st in assists then 3rd, 3rd, and 3rd in order respectively. Also defensive metrics seem to indicate that he was still an valuable asset on defense.

Ramsey: He played on the Celtics when he was 23 years old and retired when he was 32 years old. Definitely not washed up. He was also a good defender too.


KC Jones averaged 7 points and is in hall of fame cause his coaching/not playing. No. Context matters. He ran the offense sometimes and he was a defensive standout too.

Stop trying to downplay the rest of the Celtics teammates. The Celtics were loaded. You can't deny that fact. The Celtics had a deep bench and starters capable of passing the ball and suffocating the opposing offense.

I believe that KC Jones once said that he thought he wouldn't make the 1957 Celtics team because the squad had a deep bench.

[Axe]

What's your definition of the word surprising? How was it not surprising when it's only happened probably two times?

Where the FMVP scores under 17 AND gets outscored by own teammate = Iggy, Kawhi
Don't make a segway out of it, slick.

There was a past thread already before about these two former fmvps that bran had to face but i think the case for iggy being the fmvp was his defensive impact when he started to guard him whereas I'm not sure about kawhi.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You seem very confused but I'm glad that you mentioned Bill Russell. He has actually LED his team in final scoring two years. Kawhi has only done this once, along with Cecric Maxwell and Reggie Miller and Jamaal Wilkes. He has a long way to go to pass Russell in scoring let alone other all-time greats. Keep digging though, he just might get there one day!

As for your other comments, nobody is giving Bill Russell 11 finals MVPs either, hence he doesn't get all of the credit. Neither should Kawhi. Case in point

Russell had an entire career to lead teams in scoring and he did it twice.

Kawhi at 27 years old is .2 points away from doing it twice. Massive difference. Kawhi has also led his team in GmSc for two finals, which you continue to ignore.

[Axe]

Russell had an entire career to lead teams in scoring and he did it twice.

Kawhi at 27 years old is .2 points away from doing it twice. Massive difference. Kawhi has also led his team in GmSc for two finals, which you continue to ignore.
Which they say wouldn't have been possible for kawhi if he didn't take any load management at all during his regular seasons?

[Turbo Slayer]

He was a godly regular season player but wet the bed in big moments. Kind of like the james harden of his era but with better defense. Am I wrong on this?

West finally got his in 1972- That's like if Harden keeps losing in playoffs all the way until like 2025 and finally wins a title averaging 38% FG with Embiid on his team or something like that.


He was a godly regular season player but wet the bed in big moments. Kind of like the james harden of his era but with better defense. Am I wrong on this? Jerry West elevated his game come playoff time. Saying that he "wet the bed in big moments" makes literally no sense. You do know that Jerry West was named "Mr. Clutch" for a reason right?


West finally got his in 1972- That's like if Harden keeps losing in playoffs all the way until like 2025 and finally wins a title averaging 38% FG with Embiid on his team or something like that.

I am only responding to your 1st sentence. Your 2nd sentence is nonsense and is just conjecture.

Yeah, he won once he finally didn't have to face the stacked Celtics and faced a lesser team at that point (NYK).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Sanders was a pretty good rebounder and a great defender too. Stating PPG doesn't tell us the full picture or story.



Cousy (1959-1963): Made 3 All-NBA 1st teams and 2 All-NBA 2nd teams in that span. In the first 2 years he was 1st in assists then 3rd, 3rd, and 3rd in order respectively. Also defensive metrics seem to indicate that he was still an valuable asset on defense.

Ramsey: He played on the Celtics when he was 23 years old and retired when he was 32 years old. Definitely not washed up. He was also a good defender too.

No. Context matters. He ran the offense sometimes and he was a defensive standout too.

Stop trying to downplay the rest of the Celtics teammates. The Celtics were loaded. You can't deny that fact. The Celtics had a deep bench and starters capable of passing the ball and suffocating the opposing offense.

I believe that KC Jones once said that he thought he wouldn't make the 1957 Celtics team because the squad had a deep bench.

Ramsey, KC Jones, Cousy were all negative in offensive win shares during the 1963 playoffs.

Dick Barnett was a better player then all three of those guys that year.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Jerry West elevated his game come playoff time. Saying that he "wet the bed in big moments" makes literally no sense. You do know that Jerry West was named "Mr. Clutch" for a reason right?



I am only responding to your 1st sentence. Your 2nd sentence is nonsense and is just conjecture.

Yeah, he won once he finally didn't have to face the stacked Celtics and faced a lesser team at that point (NYK).

Well if you lose 8 straight finals and multiple game 7's. That tells me you're not coming up in big moments.

[Shooter]

Well if you lose 8 straight finals and multiple game 7's. That tells me you're not coming up in big moments.

Hmm and what if you dont even make the Finals and instead lose in the 1st round three years in a row?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Hmm and what if you dont even make the Finals and instead lose in the 1st round three years in a row?

That's another knock on Jerry West and that era, until 1968 there was only 1 round before you make the finals. So West is not even exhausted by the time he faces Celtics, he only plays 1 round before he meets them.

Kawhi had to go through multiple contenders in bucks and 76ers before he even sniffed the finals.

[Shooter]

That's another knock on Jerry West and that era, until 1968 there was only 1 round before you make the finals. So West is not even exhausted by the time he faces Celtics, he only plays 1 round before he meets them.

Kawhi had to go through multiple contenders in bucks and 76ers before he even sniffed the finals.

Kawhi has one good run in his career :lol

Only 5 more to tie Kareem. #GoodLuckKawhIgyydola

[Turbo Slayer]

Ramsey, KC Jones, Cousy were all negative in offensive win shares during the 1963 playoffs.

Dick Barnett was a better player then all three of those guys that year.

I love it. :oldlol:

You didn't even attempt to disprove my argument (Post #62). You instead proceeded to put up a weak argument that has nothing to do with the main proposition.

Focusing on one playoff run and discarding the rest is not the way to go here. Also comparing a 3rd or 4th option to bench players is dense as well. Plus Barnett doesn't compare to them in terms of defense.

Until you disprove my previous argument, (Post #62) the argument still stands. My argument is that the Celtics was a great team in their era and their players were awesome and a nightmare to deal with.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi has one good run in his career :lol

Only 5 more to tie Kareem. #GoodLuckKawhIgyydola

Best two title runs:

Kawhi in 2014,2019 = 1060 total points

Kareem in 1971,1980 = 851 total points

And then he started carrying Magic Johnson's bags after that? Kawhi is doing just fine.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I love it. :oldlol:

You didn't even attempt to disprove my argument (Post #62). You instead proceeded to put up a weak argument that has nothing to do with the main proposition.

Focusing on one playoff run and discarding the rest is not the way to go here. Also comparing a 3rd or 4th option to bench players is dense as well. Plus Barnett doesn't compare to them in terms of defense.

Until you disprove my previous argument, (Post #62) the argument still stands. My argument is that the Celtics was a great team in their era and their players were awesome and a nightmare to deal with.

If you look at my post, I said in 1963 in particular was when West had plenty of help and could of won the title. West had Elgin Baylor who arguably outplayed every Celtics player with his 34/15/4 finals averages. I never said every year West could of won it.

[Turbo Slayer]

If you look at my post, I said in 1963 in particular was when West had plenty of help and could of won the title. West had Elgin Baylor who arguably outplayed every Celtics player with his 34/15/4 finals averages. I never said every year West could of won it.

How about the benches in the 1963 Finals? Did you even bother to compare them both?

Anyway, no. You proceeded to downplay Sanders, Cousy, Jones, and Ramsey. Then you also took the players completely out of context. You are saying things like, "They are washed" or "Low PPG". Like what do you even mean?

[Shooter]

Best two title runs:

Kawhi in 2014,2019 = 1060 total points

Kareem in 1971,1980 = 851 total points

And then he started carrying Magic Johnson's bags after that? Kawhi is doing just fine.

Kawhi is in the Reggie Miller tier. Both have led their team in Finals scoring one time. Both are good but lack longevity and consistency. Reggie has 2972 playoff points and Kawhi has 2164. Maybe if Kawhi has two more deep runs he can pass Reggie, for now he is top 40 ish.

Kareem is in the top tier, leading his team in Finals scoring FIVE times with incredible longevity and consistency. and nearly 6,000 playoff points (had the record until MJ passed him).

Kareem has led the league in playoff win shares THREE years
Kawhi has led the league in playoff win shares ONCE

Kawhi still needs at least four more good years to come close to the GOAT tier: LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Russell, Duncan.

Kawhi is top 40 with Reggie
Kareem is top 3 with Bron and MJ

[StrongLurk]

Not surprised this thread has been derailed. Let's summarize in an easy format.

Jerry West is a top 10 finals performer ever (most 30 point games at 31, next is MJ at 23).
West was highly efficient compared to his era, especially for a guard
He was also a very good defender for his era
Third greatest SG behind MJ and Kobe

[Jasper]

And if you want to combine the pre-modern era with the modern era...then he'd be the 3d best SG ever.

10 year prime of 29/6/7 on great percentages, especially compared to the era he played in. Most 30-point NBA Finals games ever at 31 (next closest is MJ at 23).

The...logo.

1 ring... you don't know where those dimes or points came from , I saw him play , and I don't remember , they could of came during a blow out , and he kind of made it close ...

[SouBeachTalents]

1 ring... you don't know where those dimes or points came from , I saw him play , and I don't remember , they could of came during a blow out , and he kind of made it close ...
:biggums: What the fck? You're just going to assume that his CAREER averages were boosted during blow outs :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Bill Russell averaged 12PPG over the course of 3 titles (1964,68,69).

He was 3rd in MVP in 64', 4th in 69'. Are we really comparing him to a role player?


Cousy (1959-1963): Made 3 All-NBA 1st teams and 2 All-NBA 2nd teams in that span. In the first 2 years he was 1st in assists then 3rd, 3rd, and 3rd in order respectively. Also defensive metrics seem to indicate that he was still an valuable asset on defense.

Cousy is underrated on ISH it seems. There was a thread a week ago where someone said Cousy was a Klay-level player. :facepalm


Russell had an entire career to lead teams in scoring and he did it twice.

He was never asked to score and he wasn't having 41% usage. He played dominant defense, dominated the glass, and played a secondary role as a playmaker (top 5 in assists once and top 10 four or five times).


Well if you lose 8 straight finals and multiple game 7's. That tells me you're not coming up in big moments.

Let's look at some of those finals games (Game 7 or the final game if not G7).

Game 7 62': 35/6/0 47%
Game 6 63': 32/7/9 54%
Game 5 64': 33/4/0 52%
Game 7 66': 36/10/3 44%
Game 6 68': 22/5/5 42%
Game 7 69': 42/13/12 48%
Game 7 70': 28/6/5 47%
Game 7 72': 23/5/9 36%
Game 5 73': 12/5/4 29%

He was a monster until he got old. Let's compare him to other recent Game 7's in the finals:

2016

LeBron 27/11/11 38%
Irving 26/6/1 44%
Love 9/14/3 33%

Curry 17/5/2 32%
Klay 14/2/2 35%
Green 32/15/9 73%

2013

LeBron 37/12/4 52%
Wade 23/10/1 52%
Bosh 0/7/2 0%

Kawhi 19/16/0 47%
Duncan 24/12/2 44%
Parker 10/0/4 25%
Manu 18/3/5 50%

2010

Kobe 23/15/2 25%
Gasol 19/18/4 38%

Pierce 18/10/2 33%
Allen 13/2/2 21%
KG 17/3/2 62%

West compares very well...

[Manny98]

He might be the second best finals performer ever behind GOAT James :applause:

[Lion's pride]

Do you guys actually watch video??? He played in the Fred Flintstone ERA.. he was so whack by modern day standards.. and I am a "old school baller"

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He was 3rd in MVP in 64', 4th in 69'. Are we really comparing him to a role player?



Cousy is underrated on ISH it seems. There was a thread a week ago where someone said Cousy was a Klay-level player. :facepalm



He was never asked to score and he wasn't having 41% usage. He played dominant defense, dominated the glass, and played a secondary role as a playmaker (top 5 in assists once and top 10 four or five times).



Let's look at some of those finals games (Game 7 or the final game if not G7).

Game 7 62': 35/6/0 47%
Game 6 63': 32/7/9 54%
Game 5 64': 33/4/0 52%
Game 7 66': 36/10/3 44%
Game 6 68': 22/5/5 42%
Game 7 69': 42/13/12 48%
Game 7 70': 28/6/5 47%
Game 7 72': 23/5/9 36%
Game 5 73': 12/5/4 29%

He was a monster until he got old. Let's compare him to other recent Game 7's in the finals:

2016

LeBron 27/11/11 38%
Irving 26/6/1 44%
Love 9/14/3 33%

Curry 17/5/2 32%
Klay 14/2/2 35%
Green 32/15/9 73%

2013

LeBron 37/12/4 52%
Wade 23/10/1 52%
Bosh 0/7/2 0%

Kawhi 19/16/0 47%
Duncan 24/12/2 44%
Parker 10/0/4 25%
Manu 18/3/5 50%

2010

Kobe 23/15/2 25%
Gasol 19/18/4 38%

Pierce 18/10/2 33%
Allen 13/2/2 21%
KG 17/3/2 62%

West compares very well...

My point was you don't have to be a high PPG scorer to have great impact. Kawhi led spurs in VORP, led them in multiple series in GmSc, and won 3 straight finals game including a closeout game averaging 24PPG on 68% FG which I doubt Russell has ever done.

Sports are about finding a way to win, regardless of the odds. I'm not asking for Jerry to do it every time but at least once. He failed every single time in finals 0-8 until he was older and heavy favorite in 1972.

There was also chances I seen him blow. Game 7 1970 getting picked by Frazier late in the game and also making other unforced turnovers.

1963 failed to even push series to 7 games despite getting a 34/15/4 stat line from Elgin Baylor.

[Axe]

Not surprised this thread has been derailed. Let's summarize in an easy format.

Jerry West is a top 10 finals performer ever (most 30 point games at 31, next is MJ at 23).
West was highly efficient compared to his era, especially for a guard
He was also a very good defender for his era
Third greatest SG behind MJ and Kobe
These kind of threads will always get derailed whenever they compare one player to another.

[Roundball_Rock]

7 HOF on the Celtics. Who do you expect to win?

[HoopsNY]

Do you guys actually watch video??? He played in the Fred Flintstone ERA.. he was so whack by modern day standards.. and I am a "old school baller"

Then we should disqualify Kareem, Wilt, Big O, Russell, Cousy, West, Baylor, and a long list of players.

[Phoenix]

Then we should disqualify Kareem, Wilt, Big O, Russell, Cousy, West, Baylor, and a long list of players.

Exactly. If people can't take things in context like 'level of dominance relative to peers' then we may as well do separate GOAT lists for players before and after 1980. And even then there's twice as much time between 1980 and 2020 as there is 1980 and 1960 when Wilt, Russell, Oscar and West were doing their thing. There are pretty much 4 very distinct eras in basketball at this point.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's the funny thing with a lot of the anti-60's crowd: 1980 to 1960 is presented as this chasm but somehow 2020 to 1980 or 2020 to 1990 is presented as interchangeable. The game in 1960 and 1980 or 1990 was more similar in play than 2020 is to 1990 or 1980. Yet we never hear of using 2000 or 2005 as a cut-off.

It also ignores era overlap. Players don't all retire at the end of a decade and get replaced by a fresh crop. Some of the players West played against in the 70's played into the 80's (like Kareem).

[Phoenix]

Hell, just the last 20 years could be divided into mini-eras. You had the early 2000s defensive grind, the post 2004 perimeter rule changes, and the current 3point analytics era. Tmac scoring 32ppg in 2003 isn't the same as Harden scoring 35 in 2020, or even Kobe scoring 35 in 2006.

[Roundball_Rock]

Hell, just the last 20 years could be divided into mini-eras. You had the early 2000s defensive grind, the post 2004 perimeter rule changes, and the current 3point analytics era. Tmac scoring 32ppg in 2003 isn't the same as Harden scoring 35 in 2020, or even Kobe scoring 35 in 2006.

Good points. It is funny, given all these changes, to act like 1960 was somehow distinct from everything thereafter, which is (allegedly) broadly similar and lumped in together.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

7 HOF on the Celtics. Who do you expect to win?

It seems like back then anybody who put on a Celtics Jersey was a hall of famer by default.

Tom Sanders averaged 9 points how is that a hall of famer

John Havlicek only averaged 11 points in 1963

KC Jones averaged 4 points in 1963

Frank Ramsey was averaging 8 points

That's like if 2014 spurs played in the 60s and they were trying to pass off guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw as hall of famers

[HoopsNY]

Good points. It is funny, given all these changes, to act like 1960 was somehow distinct from everything thereafter, which is (allegedly) broadly similar and lumped in together.

Good point. The problem comes with arbitrary time frames and choice of defining years between acceptable and unacceptable talent. I had a discussion with a friend today who claimed 1984-85 is the defining line for him because "that's when defense actually started." Clearly he didn't do his research.

Another thing that the modern fans like to throw out is "If you drop Giannis or LeBron in the 60s..." as if the reverse doesn't hold itself true. If you drop today's guys back then, you have to remove modern medicine, supplements, digital technology for watching videos, modern strength training, etc.

And the same goes for the players in the 60s. Give them today's advancements in medicine and technology and they're better equipped. But for some reason, this only holds true for today's players.

[Shooter]

Good point. The problem comes with arbitrary time frames and choice of defining years between acceptable and unacceptable talent. I had a discussion with a friend today who claimed 1984-85 is the defining line for him because "that's when defense actually started." Clearly he didn't do his research.

Another thing that the modern fans like to throw out is "If you drop Giannis or LeBron in the 60s..." as if the reverse doesn't hold itself true. If you drop today's guys back then, you have to remove modern medicine, supplements, digital technology for watching videos, modern strength training, etc.

And the same goes for the players in the 60s. Give them today's advancements in medicine and technology and they're better equipped. But for some reason, this only holds true for today's players.

LeBron in the 90s would gap MJ even more than he already has while playing in a tougher era. Don't kid yourself :lol

[HoopsNY]

LeBron in the 90s would gap MJ even more than he already has while playing in a tougher era. Don't kid yourself :lol

Not sure what you're referring to. Clearly I said the 60s in relation to what was previously said about that era. Insecurity much?

[Axe]

Not sure what you're referring to. Clearly I said the 60s in relation to what was previously said about that era. Insecurity much?
:roll:

Troll toll is very much alive. He doesn't care as he keeps on coming back with these shitty dups for money. :lol

[Shooter]

:roll:

Troll toll is very much alive. He doesn't care as he keeps on coming back with these shitty dups for money. :lol


Doctor P calling me a dup :lol Funny

[Axe]

Doctor P calling me a dup :lol Funny
Oh how i love the way you expose your low iq in this board :oldlol:

But go on tho

[Phoenix]

Good point. The problem comes with arbitrary time frames and choice of defining years between acceptable and unacceptable talent. I had a discussion with a friend today who claimed 1984-85 is the defining line for him because "that's when defense actually started." Clearly he didn't do his research.

Another thing that the modern fans like to throw out is "If you drop Giannis or LeBron in the 60s..." as if the reverse doesn't hold itself true. If you drop today's guys back then, you have to remove modern medicine, supplements, digital technology for watching videos, modern strength training, etc.

And the same goes for the players in the 60s. Give them today's advancements in medicine and technology and they're better equipped. But for some reason, this only holds true for today's players.

Yep, it's always the current athlete that's given the benefit of taking their advantages( modern medicine, nutrition, training, building on past players) back to a prior era so as to say the prior eras are garbage. But the older players are never given the same consideration. Yeah, if Steph Curry got a Delorean back to 1960 with his modern skillset, the players of that era will think they've encountered an alien species. But if Steph came up in that era? Hes not going to be anything close to what we know him to be.

Its era protectionism and disrespectful to the legacy of the game. In 2040 you'll have fans of some 7'2 player with a 44" vert, Kyrie handles and Stephs shot calling current era archaic. Hope all the current fans shitting on past eras can handle when that day comes.

[Daphne]

For sure, Jerry would be the best

[Nashty]

Best SG of all time. If he played in the weak 90s he would win championship every year.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Best SG of all time. If he played in the weak 90s he would win championship every year.

There was only 9 teams up until 1966, which is the first 5 years of Jerry West prime. That's too hard for him?

The 70s also had guys like "Stumpy" Gail Goodrich making 1st team all NBA which I doubt he ever does in any other era. Come on stumpy? Hahaha

[Nashty]

There was only 9 teams up until 1966, which is the first 5 years of Jerry West prime. That's too hard for him?

The 70s also had guys like "Stumpy" Gail Goodrich making 1st team all NBA which I doubt he ever does in any other era. Come on stumpy? Hahaha

It's actually harder to win the championship with less teams. How many contenders we have today, 3? Add 5 more pretenders, and you have 8 teams that have a chance to win the ring. Now imagine these teams replace their worse players with the best players from other 22 teams, every team would be stacked af.

[RRR3]

It seems like back then anybody who put on a Celtics Jersey was a hall of famer by default.

Tom Sanders averaged 9 points how is that a hall of famer

John Havlicek only averaged 11 points in 1963

KC Jones averaged 4 points in 1963

Frank Ramsey was averaging 8 points

That's like if 2014 spurs played in the 60s and they were trying to pass off guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw as hall of famers
The 63 Celtics still had prime Russell, Heinsohn and Sam Jones. And stop rounding stats down, no one does that unless they have an agenda.

[Roundball_Rock]

Havlicek was a MVP-caliber/first team all-NBA type player. He wasn't along for the ride. He is in the HOF because he is one of the top 20-30 players all-time.

[Axe]

If he played in the weak 90s he would win championship every year.
By this delusional logic, the 60s are also weak because the celtics kept on dominating in a decade when teams played less games during the postseason compared to the modern era.