1990s Point Guards not represented well these days, but owned their decade ...

[L.Kizzle]

There's a current thread on Mitch Richmond that got me thinking about 90s Guards, 90s Point Guards in particular.

The OP mentioned that Richmond along with 4 other SG's have been inducted into the Hall of Fame. That would be Jordan, Drexler, Richmond, Dumars and Miller.


Now, let's think about 1990's Point Guards and their Top 5 Players.

John Stockton
Gary Payton
Tim Hardaway
Kevin Johnson
Mark Price

I find it strange that the top 5 SGs of the 90s (MJ, Clyde, Mitch, Joe D & Reggie) all made the Hall of Fame while the top PGs of the 90s have not (Stockton, Payton, T. Hardaway, KJ & Price.) And I didn't even mention Magic (1990 MVP, retired by end of 91 season), Thomas (1990 NBA Champion & Finals MVP), Jason Kidd (gonna count him as a 2000s PG) and Penny Hardaway. Hell, you could replace Penny with Price if you'd like and you might get slightly better results to back the PGs.

Stockton and Payton are the only ones who spent the bulk of their careers in the 90s in the HoF. And other than MJ and Clyde, these guys listed at PG usually got more praise than Joe D, Mitch and Reggie in the 90s.

You're telling me Timmy Hardaway didn't have a better career than his Run-TMC running mate Mitch Richmond? When both were on the Warriors it was Tim making the All-Star games (even starting) and once they both went their separate ways it was Tim making All-NBA 1st Teams and going to the Eastern Conference Finals a few times.

Joe D & Reggie have a combined six All-NBA Teams (Five 3rd & One 2nd) under their belts.
KJ & Price have a combined nine All-NBA Teams (One 1st, Four 2nd & Four 3rd)

So, what has happened in the past 20 years where the 90s PGs who were getting all the hype are now not good enough to be inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame?

[Phoenix]

Good question, they should have been in by now. Thats the problem with the HOF, no set criteria. Grant Hill and Tmac enjoyed short primes due to injury, both got in. Mind you they both peaked higher than the PGs you listed that haven't gotten in, but still. Even someone like Dominique didnt get in his first year of eligibility.

[L.Kizzle]

Good question, they should have been in by now. Thats the problem with the HOF, no set criteria. Grant Hill and Tmac enjoyed short primes due to injury, both got in. Mind you they both peaked higher than the PGs you listed that haven't gotten in, but still. Even someone like Dominique didnt get in his first year of eligibility.

Mac and Hill were top 5 players at their peaks tho that's a different ball game. That's why I mentioned Penny here as well.
The point guards were considered better than the SGs in the 90s.

KJ and Timmy were always considered better than Reggie (and I guess Mitch) in the 90s.

[Phoenix]

Mac and Hill were top 5 players at their peaks tho that's a different ball game. That's why I mentioned Penny here as well.
The point guards were considered better than the SGs in the 90s.

KJ and Timmy were always considered better than Reggie (and I guess Mitch) in the 90s.

I get that( about Tmac and Grant). I'm just saying I do think in the 20 years those PGs have been gone the voters would have put them in by now. But again, the criteria is all over the place.

[Roundball_Rock]

John Stockton
Gary Payton
Tim Hardaway
Kevin Johnson
Mark Price

I find it strange that the top 5 SGs of the 90s (MJ, Clyde, Mitch, Joe D & Reggie) all made the Hall of Fame while the top PGs of the 90s have not (Stockton, Payton, T. Hardaway, KJ & Price.)

Johnson, Price didn't last. Johnson made only 3 all-star teams, Price 4 and their last all-star seasons came at age 27 and age 29 respectively. For a player to make the HOF with 3-4 all-star teams they need something extraordinary peak wise during that period (like Bill Walton), a ton of winning, or college/international accomplishments outside the NBA.

T. Hardaway is a borderline case (5x all-star). His prime was better than people remember, though. If Mitch Richmond is in Hardaway should be in IMO.

It also hurts them that all these guys had overlapping primes, which made it more difficult for any particular one to stick out since there wasn't a light years difference between them. I am not saying they were equal, just that there wasn't a giant difference between Stockton and Price or Payton and Hardaway if you are comparing primes/peaks (longevity is a different story).


hats the problem with the HOF, no set criteria. Grant Hill and Tmac enjoyed short primes due to injury, both got in

Basketballreference had an article on this about a decade ago. I don't have it saved but from what I recall 6-7 all-star teams is roughly the cut-off, i.e., that basically everybody at or above that threshold has wound up in the HOF. Hill and T Mac were both 7x all-stars and both had a higher peak than any of the PG's mentioned here.

[L.Kizzle]

Johnson, Price didn't last. Johnson made only 3 all-star teams, Price 4 and their last all-star seasons came at age 27 and age 29 respectively. For a player to make the HOF with 3-4 all-star teams they need something extraordinary peak wise during that period (like Bill Walton), a ton of winning, or college/international accomplishments outside the NBA.
They might have less All-Star games but more All-NBA Teams which should even everything out. Richmond, Miller & Dumars have a total of 11 All-NBA Teams (no 1st teams between them) and Price, KJ & Timmy have a total of 14 (Two 1st teams.)


T. Hardaway is a borderline case (5x all-star). His prime was better than people remember, though. If Mitch Richmond is in Hardaway should be in IMO.
How is Tim a Borderline when Mitch and Reggie are in. Tim was a better player throughout the 90s.


It also hurts them that all these guys had overlapping primes, which made it more difficult for any particular one to stick out since there wasn't a light years difference between them. I am not saying they were equal, just that there wasn't a giant difference between Stockton and Price or Payton and Hardaway if you are comparing primes/peaks (longevity is a different story).
That should actually help their case. Means deeper competition.

List of All-NBA PGs between 1990-1999
1990 All-NBA First Team - Magic
1990 All-NBA Second Team - Kevin Johnson, John Stockton
1990 All-NBA Third Team - N/A

1991 All-NBA First Team - Magic
1991 All-NBA Second Team - Kevin Johnson
1991 All-NBA Third Team - John Stockton

1992 All-NBA First Team - N/A
1992 All-NBA Second Team - Tim Hardaway, John Stockton
1992 All-NBA Third Team - Kevin Johnson, Mark Price

1993 All-NBA First Team - Mark Price
1993 All-NBA Second Team - John Stockton
1993 All-NBA Third Team - Tim Hardaway

1994 All-NBA First Team - John Stockton
1994 All-NBA Second Team - Kevin Johnson
1994 All-NBA Third Team - Gary Payton, Mark Price

1995 All-NBA First Team - Penny, John Stockton
1995 All-NBA Second Team - Gary Payton
1995 All-NBA Third Team - N/A

1996 All-NBA First Team - Penny
1996 All-NBA Second Team - Gary Payton, John Stockton
1996 All-NBA Third Team - N/A

1997 All-NBA First Team - Tim Hardaway
1997 All-NBA Second Team - Gary Payton
1997 All-NBA Third Team - Penny, John Stockton

1998 All-NBA First Team - Gary Payton
1998 All-NBA Second Team - Tim Hardaway, Rod Strickland
1998 All-NBA Third Team - N/A

1999 All-NBA First Team - Jason Kidd
1999 All-NBA Second Team - Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton
1999 All-NBA Third Team - John Stockton


Basketballreference had an article on this about a decade ago. I don't have it saved but from what I recall 6-7 all-star teams is roughly the cut-off, i.e., that basically everybody at or above that threshold has wound up in the HOF. Hill and T Mac were both 7x all-stars and both had a higher peak than any of the PG's mentioned here.
I think it 7 All-Star appearances and/or 5 All-NBA selections should get you in.

[Roundball_Rock]

They might have less All-Star games but more All-NBA Teams which should even everything out. Richmond, Miller & Dumars have a total of 11 All-NBA Teams (no 1st teams between them) and Price, KJ & Timmy have a total of 14 (Two 1st teams.)

That says they had higher peaks/primes. The all-star selections go to the fact that they didn't last and were injury prone.


How is Tim a Borderline when Mitch and Reggie are in. Tim was a better player throughout the 90s.

I agree with you--I don't get how Hardaway is not in when those guys are.


That should actually help their case. Means deeper competition.


True--but is that how HOF voters look at it?


I think it 7 All-Star appearances and/or 5 All-NBA selections should get you in.

Yeah, I am not saying I agree with the de facto cut-off. I am just saying the article said it was something like 6-7 AS games.

Basketballreference has a tool to assess HOF odds for a player by comparing their resume to people already in the HOF. Here are the HOF odds (rounded) for these players:

Hardaway 79%
Price 18%
Johnson 19%
Richmond 70%
Miller 31%

[Charlie Sheen]

Reggie is in over KJ because KJ doesn't have any signature moments. I mean he does, but you'd have to be a KJ fan to know them without searching. More people are going to know about Reggie's choke gesture and the 8 points in 9 seconds. That's the fame part of the hall of fame I guess. Reggie also played for a lot longer. He's had a greater exposure because of it.

[3ball]

.
1994 vs Rockets (7 games)

KJ... 27/4/10 on 53% ts



1995 vs Rockets (7 games)

KJ... 29/4/9 on 66% ts



1990 vs 1-seed Lakers (upset win vs Magic)

KJ... 23/7/11 on 56% ts



^^^^ far better than pippen ever played... kj had a 45 and 46 point game vs rockets and smashed on Hakeem

[L.Kizzle]

Reggie is in over KJ because KJ doesn't have any signature moments. I mean he does, but you'd have to be a KJ fan to know them without searching. More people are going to know about Reggie's choke gesture and the 8 points in 9 seconds. That's the fame part of the hall of fame I guess. Reggie also played for a lot longer. He's had a greater exposure because of it.

KJ should have had at least 3 other All-Star game appearances.

He made All-NBA 2nd Team in 89 (no All-Star selection): In 1989, only 3 guards are on the West Team. Stockton, Drexler and Dale Ellis. Magic was hurt and was replaced by Kareem.
He makes All-NBA 3rd Team in 92 (no All-Star selection): The biggest F-U to Kevin Johnson. His 2 teammates Jeff Hornaceck and Dan Majerle (who wasn't even a starter) make it over him. I gotta find some articles about this.

[Roundball_Rock]

KJ should have had at least 3 other All-Star game appearances.

But he doesn't and he wet the bed when he had a chance to win a ring in the 93' finals so he doesn't have that for him.

KJ was injury prone--that cost him some all-star selections later in his career. Here are his games played from 1993-1997: 49, 67, 47, 56, 70. He was an all-star only in 94'. So that helps explain the low all-star count but doesn't help his HOF case: he was good only through age 30 and he was missing significant time year after year for half that time, which hurts his value.

[3ball]

he was good only through age 30




and by "good", you mean far better playoff performance than pippen ever provided

KJ's superiority to existing HOF's like Pippen shows that he should easily make the HOF, but simply played alongside Barkley instead of the goat, hence the lack of hardware

[Roundball_Rock]

Does any MJ fan (other than the two reasonable ones) disagree with 3ball? We hear MJ fans profess to distance themselves from him (with zero specificity) all the time so I look forward to hearing how they disagree with him. :cheers:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Does any MJ fan (other than the two reasonable ones) disagree with 3ball? We hear MJ fans profess to distance themselves from him (with zero specificity) all the time so I look forward to hearing how they disagree with him. :cheers:

Not that I have anything to prove, but I'm gonna post this to see if you're consistent.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481639-Every-argument-to-put-Lebron-over-MJ-can-be-used-by-others

Here is me, a "Jordan fan", disagreeing with 3ball. And...*waits for it*...praising Lebron.

Truth is, you see what you want to see. And more often than not TROLL here just like 3ball. Do better, Rockball.

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[3ball]

am I lying when I say KJ had far better playoff performance than pippen ever had?

how is that false or a troll?

is it false just because you can't counter it with facts? is that why it's a troll?

it goes against the group think you've been taught so it's a troll?

grow up people and grow a spine with your own opinions, not some bullshit that's been spread by reporters (journalism majors)

you can look up the facts yourself - pippen's playoff peak was shit... he wet the bed every single year and either caused the bulls to lose with poor performance (88-90' and 95'), or caused close series (92' ECSF, 93' Finals, 96-98' Playoffs)...

Only in 1991 did he NOT wet the bed (although his dumb foul-out play on a stumbling Vlade would've cost the Bulls Game 3 if mj didn't hit the game tying bucket and dominate the OT (with pippen out)

I don't troll on the vast majority of my posts... I try to post facts and you guys are simply fos

[Roundball_Rock]

They fundamentally agree with you--hence why they can't with specificity say why they "disagree" with you. If an attempt was made, it would reveal they believe 90% of what you do, which would be embarrassing to admit. :lol

It is always amusing to see the Jordanian fleet echo your core arguments for 10, 15, 20 pages in a thread and then say "3ball is extreme" as a faux disclaimer.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

They fundamentally agree with you--hence why they can't with specificity say why they "disagree" with you. If an attempt was made, it would reveal they believe 90% of what you do, which would be embarrassing to admit. :lol


Disagreeing with 3ball: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481639-Every-argument-to-put-Lebron-over-MJ-can-be-used-by-others

So you're not consistent. And rather troll :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Case in point. :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No response for disagreeing with 3ball. More "Jordanian army" talk :oldlol: You are a predictable troll.

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball, do you see any substantive difference in your views and those of your fellow MJ fans as a group with respect to Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, Rodman, Kukoc, the Bulls as a whole, how every 90's star was great (except one), etc.?

[3ball]

So you're not consistent. And rather troll :confusedshrug:

that thread was valid but poorly presented.... I fixed it here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481689-It-would-ve-looked-ridiculous-amp-shameful-if-MJ-lost-to-Barkley-in-93-and-then-retired


I notice you didn't post in that one, so I guess your silence = agreement, and you generally try to counter me and find holes... that's fine, bit there's no holes in the thread above, which is why Rockball won't go near it

[Roundball_Rock]

That thread is nonsensical--which is why that thread is treated accordingly. No one cares if MJ in theory could have played during PTO.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

that thread was valid but poorly presented.... I fixed it here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481689-It-would-ve-looked-ridiculous-amp-shameful-if-MJ-lost-to-Barkley-in-93-and-then-retired


I notice you didn't post in that one, so I guess your silence = agreement, and you generally try to counter me and find holes... that's fine, bit there's no holes in the thread above, which is why Rockball won't go near it

Straight from the horses mouth :lol

Didn't see your edit tho. I'll post and wreckshop there after reading it over...

[Roundball_Rock]

Most of the MJ stan "disagreement" with 3ball is akin to this:

3ball: Pippen sucked.
MJ stans: 3ball is extreme! Pippen didn't suck, but he was worse than literally every 90's star.

3ball: Jordan won all by himself.
MJ stans: It wasn't all MJ, but he didn't have great help, especially compared to (insert name of any legend) who had stacked teams--unlike poor MJ.

3ball: Jordan did all the scoring because his teammates were offensively inept.
MJ stans: Jordan's teammates were offensively inept.

:lol at the charade.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So 3ball answers your question and validates what I claimed. But here you are covering your eyes and ears :oldlol: Of course its never enough being a hater. In your world, its 'condemn MJ!' and if you don't then you're a "Jordanian".

Do you take medicine for your paranoia?

[Roundball_Rock]

Most of the MJ stan "disagreement" with 3ball is akin to this:

3ball: Pippen sucked.
MJ stans: 3ball is extreme! Pippen didn't suck, but he was worse than literally every 90's star.

3ball: Jordan won all by himself.
MJ stans: It wasn't all MJ, but he didn't have great help, especially compared to (insert name of any legend) who had stacked teams--unlike poor MJ.

3ball: Jordan did all the scoring because his teammates were offensively inept.
MJ stans: Jordan's teammates were offensively inept.

:lol at the charade.

No dispute to this. No dispute to his earlier comments on Pippen and KJ. :lol But hey, 3ball says otherwise to help his allies (as if he would condemn them) so it's all good.

People can watch 3ball and co. in threads and observe themselves. The funny thing is often the other MJ stans get to a thread before 3ball--he merely jumps in and echoes the rest, just in a slightly more extreme way.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No dispute to this. No dispute to his earlier comments on Pippen and KJ. :lol But hey, 3ball says otherwise to help his allies (as if he would condemn them) so it's all good.

People can watch 3ball and co. in threads and observe themselves. The funny thing is often the other MJ stans get to a thread before 3ball--he merely jumps in and echoes the rest, just in a slightly more extreme way.

If you don't reply to every 3ball comment, that means you agree!!!

Makes sense if you're a lunatic :oldlol:

[3ball]

That thread is nonsensical--which is why that thread is treated accordingly.

so you think mj would've still retired if he lost to Barkley in 93'... got it .. I guess there's nothing else to discuss then is there?

[Roundball_Rock]

19 pages here. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp The difference between 3ball and these guys is exactly what? 10%? This is all from one thread. :lol Bold added:


Played 6th easiest schedule, didn't even win division behind Hawks, finished bottom half in the league in team offense, only eighth in league in scoring but not top 50 in true shooting (terrible inefficiency), shot 66 percent from the line and wasn't even top 50 in Ftr (ungodly bad), got locked down and knocked out of the playoffs by Knicks in second round... Player of the decade and MVP ladies and gentleman. Also, he didn't lead team in rebounds so don't know what is up with that.

The response:


Ether.

Not in my top 10 for the 90's.


Not even close. It was a feel good story for the regular season and Pip has every right to hold his head up high, but really he has no case to be above Hakeem, DRob, or Shaq and not even Ewing quite honestly.

Ewing led the Knicks to a better record, had better individual stats, and also led the Knicks to the no.1 defence in the NBA, while outplaying Pippen head-to-head in their playoff round where Ewing's team beat Pippen's en route to the NBA Finals.


Were talking about 1994 here dude. Pat hat tricked pippen. Beat him H2H as a first option by every measure.

Pippen just got more exposure because the Bulls drew GOAT ratings and NY was seen as a dirty goon team.


Regardless of resume/rings I place Kemp, Drexler, Mourning, Pippen in terms of impact and ability. All of them led their teams to 60+ wins except Pippen.


Pippen gets overrated in these conversations to replace MJ as Goat, which is the real agenda. Yeah, Pippen was a very good HOFer, but he was not elite and on Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley or David Robinson's level.

3ball could have written these if he took a chill pill. :lol The only "difference" is MJ stans say Ewing>>Pippen while 3ball says Ewing>>>Pippen (MJ stans have a thing for Ewing for some reason).


so you think mj would've still retired if he lost to Barkley in 93'... got it .. I guess there's nothing else to discuss then is there?

He was thinking of retirement before the season's outcome was known. He was burned out. Needed PTO.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Tpols is a Kobe/Curry fan. Marchesk is a Wilt fan. Reggie43 is a Pacers/Reggie fan. BigShotBob is a Horry/Lakers fan.

Fitting that a deranged hater would group them with "Jordan fans". Then again, that is your MO. Strawman and fabricate to cope with people who disagree.

Too predictable. You would be a horrible poker player :lol

[3ball]

If you don't reply to every 3ball comment, that means you agree!!!

Makes sense if you're a lunatic :oldlol:

I misspoke earlier - I like that you counter my actual points and don't run

and you don't always disagree - you sometimes agree and are a pretty even/fair poster.

but I didn't see you counter the point that mj would never retire if he lost to big-mouth Barkley in 93' - it would've been obviously shameful if he did, so the so-called goat competitor would never have done so

but his unprecedented winning and dominance gave him a pass on retiring... otherwise, he would've been like 11' Kobe or 14' Wade and been forced to trudge on (if he lost like they did)... it's funny how they collapsed in their 3-peat attempt but still played the next year, while Jordan dominated (41 ppg) but wasn't capable of continuing the next year (according to the "longevity" argument).. lol "longevity argument"

I also didn't see you counter the point that pippen's playoff peak wasn't high, and less than KJ's (28/5/9 vs Rockets in 94' and 95'... or his upset win over Magic in 1990, among others) - pippen's playoff peak is far below this, and also guys like Dumars, McHale, and obviously Worthy

[Roundball_Rock]

What substantive difference is there between 3ball and MJ fans as a group with respect to Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, Rodman, Kukoc, the Bulls as a whole, how every 90's star was great (except one), etc.? We still haven't heard any distinctions--for obvious reasons. :lol

We have had threads recently on Kukoc and Rodman being underrated. Did any MJ fan say they were underrated in them?


I also didn't see you counter the point that pippen's playoff peak wasn't high, and less than KJ's (28/5/9 vs Rockets in 94' and 95'... or his upset win over Magic in 1990, among others) - pippen's playoff peak is far below this, and also guys like Dumars, McHale, and obviously Worthy

That's because he agrees. :lol Hence the usual bobbing and weaving without addressing the core items at issue (which in his mind is brilliance when he merely is a waste of time for serious posters) because he can't formulate an answer.

[Roundball_Rock]

That MJ stans think Worthy>Pippen is obvious. Just go back a few weeks to multiple threads about the Dream Team and see how many MJ fans were saying Worthy should have been on the DT in place of Pippen (or Wilkins in place of Pippen). Also count how "many" (quick count :oldlol:) MJ fans said Pippen deserved to be on the DT or took the opposing position...(This despite Pippen being a "no brainer"/"essential" player per those who assembled the team--if Worthy got on it would be in place of Drexler and despite Pippen being picked ahead of Mullin, another SF, whose presence on the team no MJ stan in those threads contested.)

That's why your Worthy thread got so few responses. MJ fans agree with you, everyone else thinks it is ridiculous. :lol

[Reggie43]

Tpols is a Kobe/Curry fan. Marchesk is a Wilt fan. Reggie43 is a Pacers/Reggie fan. BigShotBob is a Horry/Lakers fan.

Fitting that a deranged hater would group them with "Jordan fans". Then again, that is your MO. Strawman and fabricate to cope with people who disagree.

Too predictable. You would be a horrible poker player :lol

I was actually actively trying to limit my interactions with this guy even when he posted his bullshit in the Miller thread but this dude really wont stop :facepalm

I guess when you are the 3ball of the other side you have to maintain your reputation :roll::hammerhead: