It would've looked ridiculous & shameful if MJ lost to Barkley in 93 and then retired

[3ball]

He simply wouldn't have done it - he would've been like 11' Kobe or 14' Wade and played on.. Both Wade and Kobe were exhausted, but they rested in the off-season and then had multiple all-star seasons/playoff runs.

But it was Jordans unprecedented dominance and winning (3-peat) that allowed him to retire without anyone knocking him for it.

we all knew there was nothing more for him to prove - he didn't need to say it - it was intuitive and obvious, so everyone understood and let him retire without chastising him for it

But if MJ had lost, he would've had to trudge onwards just like the exhausted Kobe and Wade did... heck, maybe MJ could've formed a new super-team or load-managed like lebron did after 2014 to make things easier.

That's why the longevity argument is nonsense - it assumes that mj wasn't capable of playing in 94', 95', or 99-01'... But he was obviously capable just like the exhausted Kobe and Wade did...

and does anyone think MJ couldn't be a replacement level player (0.0 VORP) like Kareem was during his last championship run?... Heck, MJ could've done that until he was 50, but his unprecedented dominance and winning allowed him to retire in style after conquering everything in the game.

So MJ was capable of playing in 1994, but there were extenuating circumstances (unprecedented dominance and winning) that allowed him to do what wade and kobe couldn't.

so that's why the longevity argument is nonsense - it assumes MJ wasn't capable of trudging forward like Kobe/Wade, or being a marginal player like Kareem.. and just intuitively, longevity = producing at a lower rate for longer, aka not goat

Ultimately, longevity is an argument for intellectually dishonest people (or dumb people)

[SouBeachTalents]

1-9

[Shooter]

1-9

[Turbo Slayer]

1-9

[sdot_thadon]

1w, 9L

[AlternativeAcc.]

john-rogers

[Axe]

His most recent ban didn't even last for at least 24 hours!? Unbelievable... :facepalm

[BigKobeFan]

I rather retire than losing in the finals then quits on the team to form a super team

[3ball]

1-9

thank you sir

for the acknowledgement

whenever you're the first response, and it's 1-9, followed by several other 1-9's.... I know I hit the nail on the head

so again, thanks... appreciate the tip of the cap (even sdot tipped his cap)

the longevity argument, as it relates to Jordan, is indeed a bullshit argument.. completely fabricated to dilute Jordan's goatness by boosting Kareem's "longevity" (thereby boosting lebron's)

[Shooter]

1-9

[SouBeachTalents]

thank you sir

for the acknowledgement

whenever you're the first response, and it's 1-9, followed by several other 1-9's.... I know I hit the nail on the head

so again, thanks... appreciate the tip of the cap (even sdot tipped his cap)

the longevity argument, as it relates to Jordan, is indeed a bullshit argument.. completely fabricated to dilute Jordan's goatness by boosting Kareem's "longevity" (thereby boosting lebron's)
1-9

[tpols]

Kobe won in 2010.

The Celtics were better than the jazz.

[Uncle Drew]

1-9.

[Real Cavs Fan]

Michael Jordan killed his father.

[3ball]

Kobe won in 2010.

The Celtics were better than the jazz.

Celtics were post-injury and massive underdogs to the Cavs, who they defeated because lebron choked again

otoh, the jazz swept the 60-win Lakers who featured prime shaq + 3 all-star guards (athletic guards)... they also destroyed the 56-win Spurs (Duncan/Popovich) and hakeem's rockets... the 50-win Celtics can't match that... :confusedshrug:

also, Kobe was going for a 2-peat in 2010.... he wasn't totally exhausted until his 3-peat attempt in 2011, when he collapsed against the Mavs (22 on 45%)... yet people think mj was exhausted by getting 41 ppg in the same spot that Kobe and Wade collapsed (Wade in 14')

that's why the longevity argument is nonsense - it assumes MJ wasn't capable of trudging forward like Kobe/Wade did after they collapsed in 11' and 14', even though mj dominated with 41 ppg in the same spot (didn't collapse)... he simply won with unprecedented dominance (didn't collapse), so he was allowed to retire as everyone knew he'd conquered everything, while the losing Wade/Kobe had to trudge onwards...

the longevity argument also assumes that mj couldn't be a marginal player like Kareem (replacement player during his last championship run, 0.0 VORP) - MJ could've done that until he was 50.. and just intuitively, longevity = producing at a lower rate for longer, aka not goat

[sdot_thadon]

Llwlllllll

[3ball]

1w, 9L

Jordan was unlucky that his 30-40 win teams made the playoffs as the 8 seed with impossible 8 vs 1 matchups against goat teams

Otoh, Lebron was lucky his 30-40 win teams missed the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19', thus missing the 8 vs 1 matchups against goat teams that would've sent him home early

since lebron's super-teams and high seeds lose by record amount, it would be fun to see his 8 seeds against the 19' warriors or Wallace Pistons in 04/05... can you say.... massacre?.. lol

[Shooter]

L, L, W, L, L, L, L, L, L, L

1-9 damn

[3ball]

L, L, W, L, L, L, L, L, L, L

1-9 damn

Lebron was lucky his 30-40 win teams missed the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19', thus missing the 8 vs 1 matchups against goat teams that would've sent him home early.. he only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams and easy 1st round matchups

since lebron's super-teams and high seeds lose by record amount, it would be fun to see his 8 seeds against the 19' warriors or Wallace Pistons in 04/05... can you say.... massacre?.. lol

but carry on in dumbness..

[SATAN]

1-9

[3ball]

1-9

now that I destroyed the longevity argument (:pimp::pimp::pimp:), the only argument against the goat is a 10 game sample from his early years as the 8 vs 1 matchup?

b--b-but he lost with the worst odds possible as a rookie!!

lol carry on dummies..yes he lost with the worst odds possible as a young player - that's the worst "knock" against him, aka goat

[SATAN]

1-9

[Shooter]

Finals appearances, aka , Conference Championships

Russell = 12
Kareem =10
LeBron = 9
Magic = 9
Kobe = 7
Duncan = 6
Shaq = 6
Jordan = 6
Bird = 5
Curry = 5

MJ is a considerable tier below it seems
Hmm...

[3ball]

Finals appearances, aka , Conference Championships

Russell = 12
Kareem =10
LeBron = 9
Magic = 9
Kobe = 7
Duncan = 6
Shaq = 6
Jordan = 6
Bird = 5
Curry = 5

MJ is a considerable tier below it seems
Hmm...

it's funny because the guys at the top of your list all have major caveats:

- the conference finals loser in Russell's 8-team league was the #4 team in the league... lol

- magic and kareem played on the same team

- lebron formed super-team in conference that weak teams were routinely winning (stacked deck in weak conference)


but ultimately, winning the Finals > winning conference finals

i.e. lebron has 12 wins (9 ecf and 3 Finals)... Jordan has 12 too (6 ecf and 6 Finals).... obviously, Jordan's 3 extra Finals wins > lebron's 3 extra ecf