Pippen vs 88-90 Pistons: 12 on 42%... name a better reason for bulls losses those yrs

[3ball]

then pippen had to cut his teeth AGAIN vs another physical team - the 90's Knicks - he nearly caused loss in the 92' ECSF by getting bullied and outplayed by X-man

(16 on 40% for Pippen.... 19 on 50% for X-man.. and mj had to save pippen from getting rattled in Game 7, shown here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif)

[Hey Yo]

Why did MJ decide to quit on his team before tipoff of game 5 in 1989 against Detroit?

Bulls down by 1 going into the 4th quarter.... MJ makes zero effort to win the game.

Why is it he quit?

[Shooter]

Why did MJ decide to quit on his team before tipoff of game 5 in 1989 against Detroit?

Bulls down by 1 going into the 4th quarter.... MJ makes zero effort to win the game.

Why is it he quit?

Ouch

Shut it down

[3ball]

Why did MJ decide to quit on his team before tipoff of game 5 in 1989 against Detroit?

Bulls down by 1 going into the 4th quarter.... MJ makes zero effort to win the game.

Why is it he quit?
losing the game you were already behind in is quitting?

so what was lebron doing when he lost fourth quarter leads in games 2-4 against the 07' Spurs, or games 1 and 3 against the 18' Warriors?

Also, MJ talked about saving Pippen from X-man:

"I had to talk trash to the bully so everyone (Pippen) could gain confidence"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_qvEmm-sZbU&t=27m49s


lebron never had to do that for Wade, Kyrie, Bosh or Love because they were already veteran superstars, not young players and wet behind the ears like Pippen

pippen was scared of physical teams like the Pistons and Knicks, so he played like dogshit the first few times against each of them

[Hey Yo]

He decided to quit before tip-off. His biggest postseason game to date, 46MP and only 8 total FGA. Down by 1 going into the 4th, yet continued to leave his teammates hanging.

[3ball]

He decided to quit before tip-off. His biggest postseason game to date, 46MP and only 8 total FGA. Down by 1 going into the 4th, yet continued to leave his teammates hanging.
not as bad as lebron 8 point game or 6 point game, or 11' Finals, or 07' Finals or 14' Finals quit jobs

and mj took tons of FT's because he was still aggressive but getting fouled

[SpaceJam]

Why did MJ decide to quit on his team before tipoff of game 5 in 1989 against Detroit?

Bulls down by 1 going into the 4th quarter.... MJ makes zero effort to win the game.

Why is it he quit?

A win would have put em up 3-2 heading HOME against the defending EC champs. Absolute quite job from the "GOAT"

[Shooter]

He decided to quit before tip-off. His biggest postseason game to date, 46MP and only 8 total FGA. Down by 1 going into the 4th, yet continued to leave his teammates hanging.

Ahhh is that why he only made 6 Finals?

[3ball]

Ahhh is that why he only made 6 Finals?

he only made 6 because he won organically

he had a team of rookies in 88' and 89' with zero accolades, while 07-10' Lebron had a team of vets with numerous all-star and all-defense players (Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison... Hughes/Varejao all-defense).

again, mj had an accolade-less team of rookies that he built into champions

Jordan.... 1 all-star teammate = 6 rings
Kareem... 9 all-star teammate = 6 rings
Lebron.... 6 all-star teammate = 3 rings

[Shooter]

MJ had an all star teammate only 1 year?

Idiot :lol

MJ had more help, weak rings, and his stats suck compared to LBJ. #NotMyGoat

[3ball]

MJ had an all star teammate only 1 year?

Idiot :lol

MJ had more help, weak rings, and his stats suck compared to LBJ. #NotMyGoat

learn to read

mj had 1 teammate that was an all-star alongside him

lebron had 7, including 5 perennial all-stars

yet mj has 6 rings and lebron only 3

lol

[3ball]

.
thread cliffs:

no one would've heard of the Pistons if MJ had anyone else except Pippen from 88-90' - only pippen couldn't win with the best help ever, a 35/6/6/dpoy/mvp

[tpols]

damn, pippen sucked balls huh...

imagine if MJ had reggie's 21 ppg on 142 ORTG that he put up in his first playoffs. That's an easy ring.

why was pippen so bad at scoring?

[Manny98]

He decided to quit before tip-off. His biggest postseason game to date, 46MP and only 8 total FGA. Down by 1 going into the 4th, yet continued to leave his teammates hanging.

This

Biggest dissapearence act in NBA history

[3ball]

damn, pippen sucked balls huh...

imagine if MJ had reggie's 21 ppg on 142 ORTG that he put up in his first playoffs. That's an easy ring.

why was pippen so bad at scoring?

pippen hated physical teams like th Pistons, Knicks, 96' Sonic's, 98' Pacers, 97' heat, etc

otoh, Miller thrived against the Knicks and other tough teams

Miller was clutch and was more mature than pippen

pippeen couldn't shoot and had a basic handle.. his points were "in the flow", so nothing in the clutch

[Shooter]

This

Biggest dissapearence act in NBA history

There's a reason he retired 3 times and never made 4 straight Finals (GOAT mental toughness like Russell, LBJ, Kareem). Dude was a mental midget.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan got 21 PPG from Woolridge against the Bucks and the Celtics in 85' and 86' and 20/15 from Oakley against the Celtics in 87'. What were the results?

[Shooter]

damn, pippen sucked balls huh...

imagine if MJ had reggie's 21 ppg on 142 ORTG that he put up in his first playoffs. That's an easy ring.

why was pippen so bad at scoring?

Orlando Woolridge
Charles Oakley

Google

[Roundball_Rock]

Orlando Woolridge
Charles Oakley

Google

Inconvenient truths (don't forget their 16 PPG third option Daintley)--they complain about scoring but have no answer to why the Bulls got crushed when they got precisely that type of scoring in playoff series. The Bulls' offense was consistently at 0-1 in real offensive rating in the MJ years until 1990. I wonder what suddenly changed?

That guy thinks Reggie was a 21 PPG scorer in 88' (10 PPG) and 89' (16 PPG). :lol Miller was 21 PPG from 1990-2000. 20.8 PPG great; 20.0 PPG is trash per MJ stans.

[3ball]

Jordan got 21 PPG from Woolridge against the Bucks and the Celtics in 85' and 86' and 20/15 from Oakley against the Celtics in 87'. What were the results?

the bucks were a powerhouse with far more talent than the bulls

it's not remotely close... the 85-89' bulls were young/rookie teams with zero all-stars or all-defenders, in a conference that required an all-time great team to win it

compare to lebron's 05-10' Cavs, who were a veteran-laden team with several all-stars/all-defenders (Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison... Hughes/Varejao were all-defense), in a conference that weak teams routinely won

no comparison... lol

lebron's superior cast and weaker conference explains why he won more games with weaker stats than Jordan... i.e. lebron won 66 games with 28/8/7, while Jordan won 47 with 33/8/8, or 42 with 37/5/5, or 50 with 35/6/6/dpoy .. again, no comparison.. all facts... carry on

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls' Real Offensive Rating (1985-1990)

1985: +0.8
1986: +1.4 (MJ misses 65 games)
1987: +0.3 (MJ becomes MVP candidate)
1988: +1.0
1989: +1.3
1990: +4.2 (triangle installed, Pippen becomes an all-star)

Bulls' Offensive Ranks (1985-1990)

1985: 11th
1986: 8th (MJ misses 65 games)
1987: 12th (MJ becomes MVP candidate)
1988: 9th
1989: 12th
1990: 5th (triangle installed, Pippen becomes an all-star)

For reference, there were 23 teams from 1985-1988 and 25 teams in 1989 and 1990. So 11th/12th is mid-pack in 85', 87' as is 12th in 89'.

[Shooter]

the bucks were a powerhouse with far more talent than the bulls

it's not remotely close... the 85-89' bulls were rookie/young player teams with zero all-stars or all-defenders, in a conference that required an all-time great team to win it

compare to lebron's 05-10' Cavs, who were a veteran-laden team with several all-stars/all-defenders (Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison... Hughes/Varejao were all-defense), in a conference that weak teams routinely won

no comparison... lol

lebron's superior cast and weaker conference explains why he won more games with weaker stats than Jordan... i.e. lebron won 66 games with 28/8/7, while Jordan won 47 with 33/8/8, or 42 with 37/5/5, or 50 with 35/6/6/dpoy .. again, me comparison.. all facts... carry on

Powerhouse? :lol What was the name of the guy that outscored MJ again? Dont make me Google it :lol Cummings?

[tpols]

Wait a second... MJ is supposed to beat a Larry Bird peak GOAT Celtics dynasty teams with orlando woolridge and charles oakley?

:roll:

you clowns are too much.

[3ball]

Powerhouse? :lol What was the name of the guy that outscored MJ again? Dont make me Google it :lol Cummings?

you're an ignoramus about that time period and obviously those bucks teams - everything I said was common knowledge and you couldn't address any of it

the bucks were a powerhouse with far more talent than the bulls

it's not remotely close... the 85-89' bulls were young/rookie teams with zero all-stars or all-defenders, in a conference that required an all-time great team to win it

compare to lebron's 05-10' Cavs, who were a veteran-laden team with the COY and several all-stars/all-defenders (Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison... Hughes/Varejao were all-defense), in a conference that weak teams routinely won

no comparison... lol

lebron's superior cast and weaker conference explains why he won more games with weaker stats than Jordan... i.e. lebron won 66 games with 28/8/7, while Jordan won 47 with 33/8/8, or 42 with 37/5/5, or 50 with 35/6/6/dpoy .. again, no comparison.. all facts... carry on

[Roundball_Rock]

So on the one hand MJ needed 20+ PPG; on the other he got it three years in a row and...it doesn't count because the other team was good. As if the Pistons weren't great themselves. :lol

The common denominator: when the Bulls win MJ gets all the credit; when they lose there is zero responsibility on MJ's part. It is the fault of those he condescendingly called "my supporting cast."

[3ball]

when the Bulls win MJ gets all the credit; when they lose there is zero responsibility on MJ's part.



exactly, because mj never had a bad series, only pippen or his cast did

look it up

everytime the bulls lost, pippen played like trash, aka 88-90 Playoffs and 95' ECSF

And anytime a series was close, it was pippen's poor play that caused it... the 92' ECSF went 7 games because Pippen wet the bed and was outplayed/demoralized by X-man.... that was PIPPEN, not MJ.... Ditto the 98' ECF, 96' Finals, 98' Finals and virtually any close series the bulls ever played

mj never had a bad series that caused a series loss like lebron in the 07' Finals, 08' ECSF, or 11' Finals... and other series were close because lebron sucked (14' ECF, among others)

[tpols]

exactly, because mj never had a bad series, only pippen or his cast did

look it up

everytime the bulls lost, pippen played like trash, aka 88-90 Playoffs and 95' ECSF

And anytime a series was close, it was pippen's poor play that caused it... the 92' ECSF went 7 games because Pippen wet the bed and was outplayed/demoralized by X-man.... that was PIPPEN, not MJ.... Ditto the 98' ECF, 96' Finals, 98' Finals and virtually any close series the bulls ever played

mj never had a bad series that caused a series loss like lebron in the 07' Finals, 08' ECSF, or 11' Finals


What would you say MJ's worst series was before he won a ring?

And were any of them ever as bad as this?


'07 vs the spurs - 22 ppg on 83 ORTG (yikes)
'08 vs the celtics - 27 ppg on 96 ORTG
'11 vs the mavericks - 18 ppg on 102 ORTG


:biggums:

[KobesFinger]

he only made 6 because he won organically

he had a team of rookies in 88' and 89' with zero accolades, while 07-10' Lebron had a team of vets with numerous all-star and all-defense players (Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison... Hughes/Varejao all-defense).

again, mj had an accolade-less team of rookies that he built into champions

Jordan.... 1 all-star teammate = 6 rings
Kareem... 9 all-star teammate = 6 rings
Lebron.... 6 all-star teammate = 3 rings

So in one sentence Pippen is the reason for the Bulls losing, but in another he's just a rookie with no accolades?

[Roundball_Rock]

So in one sentence Pippen is the reason for the Bulls losing, but in another he's just a rookie with no accolades?

:lol

Also, the implication of saying Pippen is responsible for all losses means he also is responsible for winning. :oldlol:

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[3ball]

:lol

Also, the implication of saying Pippen is responsible for all losses means he also is responsible for winning. :oldlol:


just don't wet the bed and cause a loss or close series.... is that too much to ask?... yet Pippen sucked in virtually every playoffs:



*1988 Playoffs...... 10 on 46%

*1989 1st Rd........ 15 on 40% (close series)
*1989 ECF...……….. 10 on 40% (loss)

*1990 ECF...……….. 16 on 40% (loss)

*1992 ECSF...…….. 16 on 40% (close series)

*1993 1st Rd...….. 16 on 40%
*1993 Finals....…… 20 on 45.9 TS (close series)

*1994 ECSF...……… 21.7 on 40% (goat choke loss)

*1995 ECSF...……… 19 on 40% (loss)

*96-98' Playoffs.... 17.6 on 40.8% (numerous close series, aka 98' ECF and many more)


* zero clutch, literally disappeared... Pippen made MJ do everything down the stretch of tight games - he was always last in clutch behind the role players of other teams...

imagine Lebron having ZERO help from his 2nd option in the clutch... imagine that it was UNDERSTOOD that Lebron must do everything down the stretch of EVERY... SINGLE... GAME… no kyrie or wade to take the load off... imagine that... only MJ had to deal with that, so it's a good thing he's the greatest clutch player of all time

Here's phil Jackson, PLEADING with Pippen: "don't leave Micheal all alone here.. It's not time YET.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s



^^^ That's every single year...

Every year Pippen's poor play caused a loss or close series... The only exception is the 91' Playoffs, where Pippen didn't lay any eggs... but he still nearly lost the Finals by committing that dumb foul on a stumbling Vlade in Game 3 (but MJ saved them after Pippen fouled out).. Pippen has a penchant for dumb fouls (see the 94' ECSF, another choke job)

Ultimately, the Bulls had the best #1 option ever, and therefore would've won rings from 88-90' with a viable 2nd option... aka Worthy, KJ, McHale or Dumars, whose playoff peaks were dimensions superior to Pippen…...

[Vino24]

MJ never had a game 7 in the finals with Pippen. “Close series tho”

[KobesFinger]

MJ obviously lacked killer instinct and leadership if his second option gave him 16ppg on 40% and lost. Duncan got
16 on 43, 15 on 40 and 14 on 39 from his second option ALL IN ONE PLAYOFF RUN (2003) and won a ring.

Also, why do you never include rebounds, assists, steals or blocks? Is it because Pippen routinely leads the team in these categories?

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ obviously lacked killer instinct and leadership if his second option gave him 16ppg on 40% and lost. Duncan got
16 on 43, 15 on 40 and 14 on 39 from his second option ALL IN ONE PLAYOFF RUN (2003) and won a ring.

Also, why do you never include rebounds, assists, steals or blocks? Is it because Pippen routinely leads the team in these categories?
3ball measures players strictly by ppg & fg%, which is why he'd argue guys like DeRozan as better than Pippen

[3ball]

MJ never had a game 7 in the finals with Pippen. “Close series tho”

The 93' Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in those Finals

that's the closest a series can get.. every ounce of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed... imagine if Jordan averaged a passive 28 ppg like Lebron in 2014.... can you say...... record blowout?... lol

and what did Pippen do to help Jordan?... he couldn't hit the broadside of the barn and forced MJ to score every point in the closeout 4th quarter until Paxson's shot.. he's a choker and anyone else loses that series because they don't get 41 ppg like Jordan or score every point in the Game 6 fourth quarter

carry on

[3ball]

MJ obviously lacked killer instinct and leadership if his second option gave him 16ppg on 40% and lost.




Bruh, Jordan won most of the series where Pippen got 16 on 40%...

Furthermore, only MJ beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick - Jordan won 5 series against good teams with 16 on 34-42% from Pippen, including the 96' Finals, 98' Finals, 98' ECF, 97' ECF, and 89' first round (cavs were the #1 SRS team in the league and MJ beat them with a 6 seed and nothing from Pippen)

Since MJ is the only guy to beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick, that means he's the only guy with carry jobs against good teams

so the ignorance in your post is startling... carry on

[3ball]

3ball measures players strictly by ppg & fg%, which is why he'd argue guys like DeRozan as better than Pippen

As I stated in the previous post above, everyone needs good scoring and efficiency from their sidekick to beat good teams (top 5 SRS opponents)

except Jordan

Jordan won 5 series against good teams with 16 on 40% from Pippen, including the 96' Finals, 98' Finals, 98' ECF, 97' ECF, and 89' first round (cavs were the #1 SRS team in the league and MJ beat them with a 6 seed and nothing from Pippen)

Since MJ is the only guy to beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick, that means he's the only guy with carry jobs against good teams

carry on..

[Round Mound]

Bulls' Real Offensive Rating (1985-1990)

1985: +0.8
1986: +1.4 (MJ misses 65 games)
1987: +0.3 (MJ becomes MVP candidate)
1988: +1.0
1989: +1.3
1990: +4.2 (triangle installed, Pippen becomes an all-star)

Bulls' Offensive Ranks (1985-1990)

1985: 11th
1986: 8th (MJ misses 65 games)
1987: 12th (MJ becomes MVP candidate)
1988: 9th
1989: 12th
1990: 5th (triangle installed, Pippen becomes an all-star)

For reference, there were 23 teams from 1985-1988 and 25 teams in 1989 and 1990. So 11th/12th is mid-pack in 85', 87' as is 12th in 89'.

:applause:

[3ball]

so again...

no one can provide a better reason for losses to the Pistons than Pippen's 12 on 42%????

I rest my case - pippen's horrible play is why the bulls lost to the Pistons from 88-90'

this is obvious, but I wanted to make it crystal clear

and all mj needed was 17 ppg from Pippen to win a ring in 1991, but the pathetic pippen couldn't even do that from 88-90'... and it's not like mj needed clutch from pippen - mj could handle a 100% clutch load... mj just needed more than 12 on 42% to keep defenses honest

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan got 21 PPG from Woolridge against the Bucks and the Celtics in 85' and 86' and 20/15 from Oakley against the Celtics in 87'. What were the results?

Woolridge's PER for the Boston series was 11.2. Read that again: 11.2 (league average player is 15, mind you). He had an ORTG of 102. Horrid efficiency.

Oakley in '87 had a slightly more respectable 16.9 PER (again, bear in mind that 15 is league average), and 107 ORTG. But he had horrible efficiency too (20 ppg on 38% FG/49% TS when most of your shots are spoon-feeds from MJ or offensive putbacks? Terrible. And 20 ppg even on good efficiency (which Oakley was not) when like 50+% of your points come off assists isn't the same as having a capable 20+ ppg scorer like Pippen or Wade or Kyrie or Worthy or McHale.

Meanwhile he was going against a team with like 17 HOF's including a top 6 player all time right at his apex. Try again.

[light]

Jackson blamed Jordan

[3ball]

a capable 20+ ppg scorer like Pippen or Wade or Kyrie or Worthy or McHale.


only pippen was a 20 ppg scorer

Kyrie averaged 27 and 29

Wade averaged 27

McHale 26

Worthy averaged 30 on 64% in the WCF and led Lakers for the entire playoffs with 24 ppg multiple years

dumars averaged 27 and 6 apg in the 89' Finals

again, only pippen was a 20 ppg scorer (at his best)

[Roundball_Rock]

Jackson blamed Jordan

"You know what's the problem? Michael, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."--Doug Collins

Krause, Reinsdorf blamed MJ too (same reason as Collins: MJ's ballhogging)--which is why they concluded they could never win with his ball hogging in 1989 but turned down a godfather offer from the Clippers because they feared the fan backlash of trading MJ.

Jordan ball was great for his stats and selling sneakers but not so much for winning. Fortunately the triangle, PJ and Winter showed up to introduce the concept of team basketball.

[KobesFinger]

Bruh, Jordan won most of the series where Pippen got 16 on 40%...

Furthermore, only MJ beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick - Jordan won 5 series against good teams with 16 on 34-42% from Pippen, including the 96' Finals, 98' Finals, 98' ECF, 97' ECF, and 89' first round (cavs were the #1 SRS team in the league and MJ beat them with a 6 seed and nothing from Pippen)

Since MJ is the only guy to beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick, that means he's the only guy with carry jobs against good teams

so the ignorance in your post is startling... carry on

Can't you tell I was trolling by applying your logic? But like I said, Jordan isn't the only one to beat teams with top 5 SRS with poor scoring and efficiency from their 2nd highest scoring option - I gave you two other players who did in Shaq and Duncan. You're also being disingenuous by only counting scoring and efficiency knowing full well what else Pippen brings to a team. Additionally, Pippen outscored the opponents top scorer in 4 series against a top 5 SRS team (91 Lakers, 92 Cavs, 93 Cavs, 97 Hawks).

89 1st Round - Pippen was inefficient but was 2nd in the team in p/r/a/s/b, and was a second year player
96 Finals - Pippen was inefficient but led the team in assists and steals. Not like Jordan was super efficient, he shot 41%
97 ECF - Pippen was more efficient than Jordan (41% v 39%)
98 ECF - Pippen was inefficient but led the team in assists and steals (16/7/5/2/1 on 39%). For comparison, Reggie Miller put up 17/1/2/1/0 on 41/43%. Jordan's second option performing around the level of the opponents highest scorer
98 Finals - Pippen shot 1% worse than Jordan but led the team in rebounds and assists.

You need to give Pippen his credit - fantastic second option

[Roundball_Rock]

You're also being disingenuous by only counting scoring and efficiency knowing full well what else Pippen brings to a team. Additionally, Pippen outscored the opponents top scorer in 4 series against a top 5 SRS team (91 Lakers, 92 Cavs, 93 Cavs, 97 Hawks).

Yeah, and they also never mention a reason his FG % fell in the second threepeat is he took more threes then. He really was inefficient only in 96'. In 97' he was more efficient in the playoffs than MJ, which is masked by FG % since MJ took few threes. TS % it was Pippen 52.6%, MJ 52.4%; eFG % Pippen 48.1%, Jordan 46.9%. The difference is Pippen took 5.9 threes (35%) and MJ 3.5 (19%).

On the one hand Pippen is a bum--on the other he outperforms guys like Price (three years in a row in fact--94' too), Worthy, Ewing, Miller, etc--which must mean MJ's competition was trash if a bum was outperforming these guys. :lol


96 Finals - Pippen was inefficient but led the team in assists and steals. Not like Jordan was super efficient, he shot 41%
97 ECF - Pippen was more efficient than Jordan (41% v 39%)
98 ECF - Pippen was inefficient but led the team in assists and steals (16/7/5/2/1 on 39%). For comparison, Reggie Miller put up 17/1/2/1/0 on 41/43%. Jordan's second option performing around the level of the opponents highest scorer
98 Finals - Pippen shot 1% worse than Jordan but led the team in rebounds and assists.


98' the story was defense (which PPG stans can't grasp). Pippen dominated the ECF defensively and the finals (before he got hurt in Game 5) defensively, leading the Bulls to a 3-1 series lead. His TS % was 57% through Games 1-4 of the finals when he was healthy.

Pippen outperformed the opposing second option (as measured by game score) in 90% of ECF's and finals during those runs. As a comparison, Wade, Gasol, Irving did not come close to the same in those respective series during their finals runs.

It also is disingenuous for MJ fans to always harp on teammate scoring when MJ took all the shots. We know the Bulls sans MJ were a top 10 caliber offense as we saw in 86', 94', and 95' so if they got the ball they could produce.

[97 bulls]

Its disingenuous to compare stats across eras. 20ppg in the 90s is like 24 in the mod 00s to current and the 80s.

[Roundball_Rock]

Its disingenuous to compare stats across eras. 20ppg in the 90s is like 24 in the mod 00s to current and the 80s.

Yeah, just look at scoring back then to today. In the 98' finals the Bulls averaged only 88 PPG, Jazz 80 PPG. Scoring 20 out of 80 or 88 isn't the same as 20 out of 110.

[3ball]

you guys are bragging about pippen outscoring the opposing #1 option 4 times, but his list of bad series far exceeds 4, lol

and again, Kyrie averaged 26 for the 16' and 17' playoffs, so he was always outscoring the opposing #1 option as a standard

and wade led the heat in 2011 (but it's basically impossible to win with a pippen sidekick - lebron was pippen in the 11' Finals)

guys like McHale, Dumars, KJ, and Worthy averaged 26-30 in numerous series and were the best player in the series many times (pippen was never the best player in any series)

it's not even close...

ultimately, pippen's weak scoring and non-existent clutch can't be complimented, so there's a silent agreement among everyone to give a consolation prize, aka compliment his defense and 5 apg playmaking... "pippen moves his feet defensively..." aka glue-guy stuff that the winning spotlight inflated to top 50 all-time

pippen is a 3rd or 4th option player like Draymond, bit he was forced to play 2nd option, hence his horrific efficiency and weak ws/48 (ws/48 measures how much he outplayed guys at his minute-level)

[Shooter]

pippen is a 3rd or 4th option player like Draymond, bit he was forced to play 2nd option, hence his horrific efficiency and weak ws/48 (ws/48 measures how much he outplayed guys at his minute-level)

And here is where you went too far my boy.

So if Pippen was a 4th option player like Draymond, and yet he almost always outscored the oppositions #2 option (doing this in 5 of 6 Finals) you're basically saying that the 1990s is the literal weakest era in basketball history.

Now, we all know this. But you didn't...until now?

Imagine 1990s ball where, as you put it, 4th option Draymond Green, is outscoring the oppositions #2 option in 83% of Finals match ups (5 of 6).

This is the reality you have created. Additionally, it would be quite obvious to conclude that if Draymond Green is the goat second option in the 90s and during the 2016 season he did not get a single MVP vote...LeBron winning in 2016 against the Warriors with Draymond and at least two-three players better than Draymond, the 2016 chip is by far and away the greatest moment for any champion, ever. Thank you for this.

[3ball]

And here is where you went too far my boy.

So if Pippen was a 4th option player like Draymond, and yet he almost always outscored the oppositions #2 option (doing this in 5 of 6 Finals) you're basically saying that the 1990s is the literal weakest era in basketball history.

Now, we all know this. But you didn't...until now?

Imagine 1990s ball where, as you put it, 4th option Draymond Green, is outscoring the oppositions #2 option in 83% of Finals match ups (5 of 6).

This is the reality you have created. Additionally, it would be quite obvious to conclude that if Draymond Green is the goat second option in the 90s and during the 2016 season he did not get a single MVP vote...LeBron winning in 2016 against the Warriors with Draymond and at least two-three players better than Draymond, the 2016 chip is by far and away the greatest moment for any champion, ever. Thank you for this.

pippen outscored them because his efficiency was literally the worst all-time for a 2nd option.. otoh, they had great efficiency because they weren't forced to take more shots than they deserved like pippen was.. they had more well-rounded and deeper teams

again, pippen is a 3rd or 4th option player like Draymond, but he was forced to play 2nd option, hence his horrific efficiency and weak ws/48 (ws/48 measures how much he outplayed guys at his minute-level)

the bulls had great team offense IN SPITE of pippen's bad offense

[Roundball_Rock]

And here is where you went too far my boy.

So if Pippen was a 4th option player like Draymond, and yet he almost always outscored the oppositions #2 option (doing this in 5 of 6 Finals) you're basically saying that the 1990s is the literal weakest era in basketball history.

Yup, that is the clear implication: in the 2010's Green was at best a top 15 player for a couple years. In the 90's Pippen was a MVP candidate, all-NBA 1st team, "must have" player for the Dream Team, etc. Since Green>Pippen, that would mean in the 90's Green would be even more accomplished than Pippen was (maybe a MVP). That is where the logic of Pippen haters leads but they are so frothing out the mouth, so insecure that MJ failed to win without Pippen, etc. that they can't see the "Pippen sucks" stuff throws MJ's era under the bus. :oldlol:

The Bulls without Pippen kept eroding more than the Bulls without Jordan. If Pippen is a bum, that is a bad look for Mike...

[G0ATbe]

If MJ were the goat he would’ve carried them to the finals regardless like bron did. Just goes to show bulls only went as far as Pippen took them

[Roundball_Rock]

If MJ were the goat he would’ve carried them to the finals regardless like bron did. Just goes to show bulls only went as far as Pippen took them

That's their problem: they make it all about MJ's team success but the Bulls did nothing without Pippen and Pippen's team impact numbers compare very well to MJ's (i.e., how the team did when either player was removed from the equation). Hence the campaign to diminish Pippen.

[Shooter]

pippen outscored them because his efficiency was literally the worst all-time for a 2nd option.. otoh, they had great efficiency because they weren't forced to take more shots than they deserved like pippen was.. they had more well-rounded and deeper teams

again, pippen is a 3rd or 4th option player like Draymond, but he was forced to play 2nd option, hence his horrific efficiency and weak ws/48 (ws/48 measures how much he outplayed guys at his minute-level)

the bulls had great team offense IN SPITE of pippen's bad offense
And here is where you went too far my boy.

So if Pippen was a 4th option player like Draymond, and yet he almost always outscored the oppositions #2 option (doing this in 5 of 6 Finals) you're basically saying that the 1990s is the literal weakest era in basketball history.

Now, we all know this. But you didn't...until now?

Imagine 1990s ball where, as you put it, 4th option Draymond Green, is outscoring the oppositions #2 option in 83% of Finals match ups (5 of 6).