the goat must be a great PURE scorer, in addition to being all-round player

[3ball]

he must be great at making a wide variety of ad-hoc, contested jumpers or shots like this (simple example):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MEfnu6Kla5Y&t=02m04s


they must be capable of LIVING off these shots if need be (the game format, era, or defensive set up might require stretches of it).. without this ability, a player can't have max control over a game because they must wait to attack.. they can't attack at any moment because they can't improvise with a "pure scoring" shot like the example above

unfortunately, we know that 94% of lebron's shots outside of 10 feet (jumpshots) are uncontested (4+ feet from closest defender, aka "open", according to nba.com).. guys like kd, harden, and kawhi take 3-6 times as many contested jumpers and are superior pure scorers

I'm not saying any pure scorer is better than lebron... almost all pure scorers AREN'T better than lebron due to his prodigious talent (size and ball-handling)...

I was watching highlights of lebron in high school and thought "how could anyone be this good at 16 years old?"... I laughed as I thought this... lebron probably SHOULD'VE been goat if not for this huge leak... he "set up" every play brilliantly, but never developed that ad-hoc, pure shot-making ability that is at the heart of the game of basketball..

ultimately, a lot of guys are good floor generals (ball-dominators), and this capability is necessary for goat, but so is pure scoring..

[Uncle Drew]

1-9

[Lebron23]

1-9

[HBK_Kliq_2]

https://youtu.be/tkQwj2UsTlA

A pure scorer with an all around game like Kawhi is a great example. Skip video to 10 seconds "Fires a long one. Kawhi Not"

[Shooter]

1-9

[NBAGOAT]

a lot of subjective unsubstantiated opinion here. there's strong statistical evidence playmaking is as impactful as scoring which is why magic and nash are two all time greats on offense and people have no problems acknowledging it

[3ball]

a lot of subjective unsubstantiated opinion here. there's strong statistical evidence playmaking is as impactful as scoring which is why magic and nash are two all time greats on offense and people have no problems acknowledging it

it is subjective, but also intuitive..

lebron "sets up" plays brilliantly, but never developed that ad-hoc, pure shot-making ability that is at the heart of the game of basketball..

ultimately, a lot of guys are good floor generals (ball-dominators), and this capability is necessary for goat, but so is pure scoring..

[NBAGOAT]

it is subjective, but also intuitive..

lebron "sets up" plays brilliantly, but never developed that ad-hoc, pure shot-making ability that is at the heart of the game of basketball..

ultimately, a lot of guys are good floor generals (ball-dominators), and this capability is necessary for goat, but so is pure scoring..

well i certainly dont trust your intuition. to be the goat you likely need at least decent defense which mj ofc has. On offense magic and nash are up there with pretty much anyone all time. Both arent top tier shotmakers

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Unless the players offensive gravity is absurd, as in, you can hide him on defense and it won't matter.

That player would be the exception. And Magic is probably the closest we've seen to fit that description. Total hypothetical here, but imagine if he had won against Jordan in '91? He would have a lot of fans in his corner.

Generally you are correct though. The 'all-around player' is seen as GOAT because he has little flaw. Of course, that also assumes we aren't ignoring intangibles ie. playing off-ball.

[SATAN]

1-9

[3ball]

well i certainly dont trust your intuition. to be the goat you likely need at least decent defense which mj ofc has. On offense magic and nash are up there with pretty much anyone all time. Both arent top tier shotmakers

with a live dribble, Kobe is the greatest pure scorer of all time - watch his high school highlights - they're the opposite of lebron's... i.e. Kobe regularly took off-the-cuff, contested jumpers (usually off a fancy dribble move), while lebron methodically sets up the play and gets an in-stride layup or finds a teammate.. I believe Kobe can do what lebron does more than the other way around - lebron lacks pure scoring ability and great jumpshooting skill (avoids contested jumpers, aka 94% are uncontested)

without a live dribble, Jordan is the goat pure scorer... by far... and his live dribble game wasn't as good as Kobe's, but possibly more effective because he'd mastered a dozen "go-to" moves off-the-dribble that were unstoppable.. and similar to Kobe, mj could play lebron-ball and get high assists:

(see the 89' regular season or 91' Finals where mj averaged more assists than lebron... heck, mj averaged equal assists to lebron in the playoffs thru 3 rings each - mj averaged 6.6 in 85-93' playoffs versus 7.2 for lebron in 06-16' playoffs.. )

[tpols]

without a live dribble, Jordan is the goat pure scorer... by far.

Dirk, Bird, Curry, and Reggie would like to have a word with you.

[light]

There is no requirement.

The GOAT doesnt necessarily even need to score at all.

[3ball]

Dirk, Bird, Curry, and Reggie would like to have a word with you.

bird is a pure scorer... maybe dirk

reggie is too, but not that great, although he did have pure scoring ability on the post and mid-range

but GTFO with this curry bullshit... he is NOT a pure scorer and cannot make contested mid-range shots... the stats prove this definitively, along with the eye test.. he can barely get off mid-range shots and never takes them unless they're wide open

and btw, post their scoring titles (0) compared to Jordan (10)

if the 10-time scoring champ and all-time PPG leader (by a wide margin) isn't the best pure scorer ever, then we've reached an age where there is NO TRUTH IN ANYTHING

one more thing - pure scoring isn't JUST jumpshooting.. it's all that dipsy-do shit around the rim that MJ was by far the goat at... and also his instinct upon the catch to produce a shot in traffic quickly

[dbugz]

Dwyane Wade says LeBron James can never be greater than Michael Jordan (https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/dwyane-wade-says-lebron-james-can-never-be-greater-than-michael-jordan/)

Carmelo Anthony wasn’t comfortable with the question, but he acknowledges there is just one basketball GOAT — Michael Jordan (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/carmelo-anthony-weighs-in-on-michael-jordan-lebron-james-goat-debate/)

Mike Malone: Killer Mentality Made Michael Jordan Better Than LeBron James (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2887907-michael-malone-killer-mentality-made-michael-jordan-better-than-lebron-james)

Mario Chalmers And JR Smith Say Michael Jordan Is The GOAT (https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/05/05/mario-chalmers-and-jr-smith-say-michael-jordan-is-the-goat/)

Ray Allen still takes Michael Jordan over LeBron James as the greatest of all time (https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-ray-allen-still-takes-michael-jordan-over-lebron-james-as-the-greatest-of-all-time/)

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3ornkdvPFqHxkC5QE8/200_d.gif