What is MJ's case for being better than Bill Russell?

[Vino24]

Russell was better at Defense, rebounds, assists, Blocks and winning chips. What does MJ have over that?

[Bronbron23]

Russell was better at Defense, rebounds, assists, Blocks and winning chips. What does MJ have over that?

How was he better in assists? To answer your question though mj dosnt really have a case against Russell or kareem. I have no probkem with anyone saying they were better

[Vino24]

3ball conceding on one of his accounts. This is progress :applause:

[BigShotBob]

Far better scorer, better playmaker, far more dynamic offensively, undefeated in the Finals, etc. He's the GOAT

[Vino24]

Far better scorer, better playmaker, far more dynamic offensively, undefeated in the Finals, etc. He's the GOAT

You are not undefeated if you don’t make the playoffs baby boy

[BigShotBob]

You are not undefeated if you don’t make the playoffs baby boy

Undefeated in the Finals means that he was literally not beaten.....in the Finals.

[Bronbron23]

3ball conceding on one of his accounts. This is progress :applause:

Manny98 giving 3ball a compliment on one of his other accounts. This is also progress:rockon:

[Axe]

Russell was better at Defense, rebounds, assists, Blocks and winning chips. What does MJ have over that?
Does this mean that russell was better than lbj as well? 🤔

[light]

MJ himself argues that he doesn't have a case against guys like Russell, as there isn't 1 supreme GOAT above all others - there can only be the best of each era.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Since you're including stuff that already fall into a defense category...like rebounding and blocks...

Jordan was better on offense. Better at creating his own shot. Better shooter from the field including midrange. Better at hitting freethrows. And was a better playmaker. Mike also has more championships as the go-to DE FACTO option on his team.

Not saying Russell doesn't have a case. But under your line of thinking, Jordan's is just as good. If not better.

[Axe]

Oh i also forgot.

Fmvps don't seem to count as a case here at all.

[Roundball_Rock]

Player A: top 20 in assists once (10th)
Player B: top 20 in assists twelve times, top 10 four times, top 5 once

Player A>Player B as a playmaker. :confusedshrug:

[Shooter]

Undefeated in the Finals means that he was literally not beaten.....in the Finals.

Riiiiight

But tons of losses in the 1st round :lol

[Axe]

Riiiiight

But tons of losses in the 1st round :lol
Seething

[HylianNightmare]

I'll even accept him as the goat and Jordan number 2. Both smoke lebum and that's all that matters

[Bawkish]

this thread made Bron even worse when comparing against the Russell :D

[Shooter]

this thread made Bron even worse when comparing against the Russell :D

Oh

https://i.postimg.cc/L4Ttjkzw/Shrug6911.png

[HoopsNY]

Player A: top 20 in assists once (10th)
Player B: top 20 in assists twelve times, top 10 four times, top 5 once

Player A>Player B as a playmaker. :confusedshrug:

Not really a fair comparison. Russell finished top 20 in assists that many times largely due to there only being 8 teams in the league. Surely you can reconcile his top 20 finishes with there simply being less players.

In addition, Jordan played in slower paced years, which makes his assist numbers more significant to Russell's, who was a playmaker in his own right.

[Vino24]

Not really a fair comparison. Russell finished top 20 in assists that many times largely due to there only being 8 teams in the league. Surely you can reconcile his top 20 finishes with there simply being less players.

In addition, Jordan played in slower paced years, which makes his assist numbers more significant to Russell's, who was a playmaker in his own right.

MJ played against some weak ass competition. To be fair MJ should have done more by comparison to Russell’s comp

[HoopsNY]

MJ played against some weak ass competition. To be fair MJ should have done more by comparison to Russell’s comp

You can't really consider MJ's competition to be "weak" when half of his career was spent in the 80s, which is largely considered to be the best era ever. In addition, Russell's era is also considered to be weak given the fact that he played in a league with 8 teams and alongside 7 HOF'ers. These aspects don't really weigh against one another very well.

[Vino24]

5 of 15 years is half? Also the talent was condensed in Russell’s time. They were never the overwhelming favorite as evident by the amount of game 7’s he played

[HoopsNY]

5 of 15 years is half? Also the talent was condensed in Russell’s time. They were never the overwhelming favorite as evident by the amount of game 7’s he played

Well, 6 if you include 1989-90. And his last two seasons weren't even his prime. Look, I get it. You don't like MJ. But let's not be dishonest about what he was able to do in the 80s, even when not winning a championship.

33/6/6 on 52% and nearly 3 steals a game isn't too shabby, with ROY, an MVP, DPOY, and multiple All-NBA selections, wouldn't you say?

And while competition was condensed, it still doesn't make up for the lack of overall competition. I mean, if you only have 4-6 teams in the playoffs, then you're basically playing the regular season all over again. You can't seriously sit there and tell me the 60s was great competition.

[Bawkish]

Oh

https://i.postimg.cc/L4Ttjkzw/Shrug6911.png

is that the number of how many flops Bron did in his career?

[Axe]

MJ played against some weak ass competition. To be fair MJ should have done more by comparison to Russell’s comp
Seething :lol

[Shooter]

is that the number of how many flops Bron did in his career?

It'e actually the highest number of playoff scoring points ever, despite equal or even fewer playoff appearances. Top 5 playoff scorers: LBJ and MJ had 13, Kareem 18, Kobe 16, Shaq 15.

Playoff Scoring Champion GOAT James

[Axe]

It'e actually the highest number of playoff scoring poinys ever deapite equal or even fewer playoffs. Top 5 playoff scorers: LBJ and MJ had 13, Kareem 18, Kobe 16, Shaq 15.

Playoff Scoring Champion GOAT James
Kudos to playing in the eastern conference for most of the last decade

[3ball]

It'e actually the highest number of playoff scoring poinys ever deapite equal or even fewer playoffs. Top 5 playoff scorers: LBJ and MJ had 13, Kareem 18, Kobe 16, Shaq 15.

Playoff Scoring Champion GOAT James

PPG is the only scoring record

no one cares about someone producing less for longer

Jordan scored 5 more ppg than lebron on better efficiency per possession and efficiency rating... and clutch... aka he was much better than Lebron

[3ball]

3-pointer basketball (since 1980) requires dominant offense to be MVP, so Russell isn't MVP-caliber in the modern era...

so Jordan's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment of 3-pointer basketball (twice as many "best player" rings as anyone else)

[Gotterdammerung]

Michael Jordan is clearly the better player, given his superior skills in scoring and clutch play.

But Bill Russell is by far the greatest player to ever play in the history of the game. His cunning and leadership gifts far exceeded that of anyone during the 60s. It took an all-time great team to finally dethrone the Celtics after 8 straight titles.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans can tell you how MJ>LeBron all day long but have trouble with any other legend. :oldlol:

[Vino24]

MJ stans can tell you how MJ>LeBron all day long but have trouble with any other legend. :oldlol:

Facts. Jerry West has arguably the goat postseason scoring yet none of these plebs can make a case for him being top 5. “But scoring is the be all end all”

[Bronbron23]

MJ stans can tell you how MJ>LeBron all day long but have trouble with any other legend. :oldlol:

Weird comparison. Most people on here saw mj and bron play so its easy to make a comparison. Who here saw west play?

That said as a mj guy i dont say hes goat or better than west, wilt, kareem or Russell because ive never seen them play.

[Carbine]

Facts. Jerry West has arguably the goat postseason scoring yet none of these plebs can make a case for him being top 5. “But scoring is the be all end all”

Arguably? There is no argument.

He averaged 29 in a MUCH MUCH higher paced game. Jordan averaged 33+

[Roundball_Rock]

Jerry West has arguably the goat postseason scoring yet none of these plebs can make a case for him being top 5. “But scoring is the be all end all”

PPG is like rings: they only count when convenient. When you get down to it, most of these people have no real criteria which is why you will see them one day saying one thing and the other day the opposite when presented a similar set of facts for another player who they like less or more.


Weird comparison. Most people on here saw mj and bron play so its easy to make a comparison. Who here saw west play?

That said as a mj guy i dont say hes goat or better than west, wilt, kareem or Russell because ive never seen them play.

If you say GOAT (which you don't but most MJ fans do), then you have to explain the "all-time" part.

[baudkarma]

Oh i also forgot.

Fmvps don't seem to count as a case here at all.

Absolutely not.

What's the name of the award they give to the finals MVP? I forgot.

[guy]

Best player of the more modern era, which is a greater era competition-wise then Russell’s era. In terms of individual skills, he’s a more complete player given his prowess offensively.

With that said, can’t really complain if somebody said Russell was the GOAT. I think accomplishments post-80s are harder to obtain then in Russell’s era i.e. Jordan’s 6 championships in his era is arguably around the same as Russell’s 11 in his era given the difficulty – with that said, we can ding Russell for his era, but at the same time, what more could he have done? Winning 11 championships means he was literally almost perfect. So there’s not much else he could do. Its unfair to say its impossible to say he was the GOAT despite being that close to perfection. I didn’t watch Russell play, but from what I’ve read, which admittedly doesn’t mean much, I’d probably put him at no. 2.

[Nashty]

MJs case is that most people saw him play, and they did not see Russell play. But, when you do some history research and dig up some old games and highlights you realize that Russell is the real GOAT.

[Roundball_Rock]

Where does this "modern era" TP MJ fans like to use come from? The NBA doesn't not have an official demarcation like the NFL does (the Super Bowl era) or NASCAR (which literally has a "modern era" designated). There is no cut-off that conveniently begins a few years before MJ began playing.

Russell retired 16 years before MJ's first season. Was there a drastic change during those 16 years? If so, why no drastic change attributed to the 35 years since 1985? A game in 1965 is more similar to a 1985 game than a 1985 game is to a 2020 game.

[Bronbron23]

PPG is like rings: they only count when convenient. When you get down to it, most of these people have no real criteria which is why you will see them one day saying one thing and the other day the opposite when presented a similar set of facts for another player who they like less or more.



If you say GOAT (which you don't but most MJ fans do), then you have to explain the "all-time" part.

Yeah for sure. I guess that's why i dont like using goat.

[Gotterdammerung]

Where does this "modern era" TP MJ fans like to use come from? The NBA doesn't not have an official demarcation like the NFL does (the Super Bowl era) or NASCAR (which literally has a "modern era" designated). There is no cut-off that conveniently begins a few years before MJ began playing.

Russell retired 16 years before MJ's first season. Was there a drastic change during those 16 years? If so, why no drastic change attributed to the 35 years since 1985? A game in 1965 is more similar to a 1985 game than a 1985 game is to a 2020 game.

Many people follow the consensus of dating the modern age to either the ABA-NBA merger (1976-77) or the advent of the three point line in 1979-1980, dovetailing nicely with the Magic-Bird era.

However, I find this classic/modern dichotomy to be old, tired and expired.
:sleeping
Instead, I divide eras accordingly:

Dark Ages: 1946-54
Pre-shotclock era where players actually stalled on offense to control the pace and neutralize size and/or athleticism disadvantage. This era is usually dismissed out of hand for a number of reasons, institutionalized racism among others.

Biblical Age: 1957-1979
In which prototypical guards like Oscar and West crystallized their positions, and mythical giants like Chamberlain and Russell, as well as Abdul-Jabbar roamed the court, nigh-dominant on offense and defense, and skywalkers like Baylor, Doctor J, Thompson elevated the game from a horizontal one to a vertical one. This era is usually excluded from records when the media claims some guy broke a "modern era" record, often beginning in 1979.

Golden Age: 1979-1991:
The moniker "Golden Age" is fitting due to a number of powerful dynasties in the Showtime Lakers, the Bird Celtics, Doctor & Moses' Sixers, and the Bad Boys from Mowtown. This league was more top-heavy than ever, although the style had dramatically altered from the coke-fueled 70s with the perfect balance between athleticism and team play.

Silver Age: 1991-2005
Instead of dynastic forces, we have an all-time great in Jordan who led the Chicago Bulls, steamrolling the league with six titles in eight years, with an interregnum of the Houston Rockets in 94 and 95. The lack of legitimate dynasties as well as dilution due to expansion, and sluggish pace of play, has diminished this era somewhat from the peak of the Golden Age. Often disparaged as Slow-Ball era. Post-Jordan, the league sought would-be replacements for the almighty Jordan in Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Iverson etc., but none of them could ever fill those Nikes.
:kobe:

Bronze Age: 2005-2018
The league finally shook off the doldrums of the slow-ball style from the 90s, thanks to Steve Nash's Phoenix Suns that introduced the Seven Seconds or Less offense. Moreover, LBJ won 4 MVPs in 5 years, and took teams to eight straight Finals, speeding up the transition of the game. But the true team of the era was the Golden State Warriors whose dominance actually made me think they were a team from the future, suddenly thrust upon the league in 2015, forcing everyone to accelerate the natural small ball evolution ahead of schedule.

Contemporary Age: 2018- now
Threes galore!
:lebronamazed:

[Roundball_Rock]

It just seems to be a slick tool to get Wilt, Russell, and Kareem out of the GOAT discussion TBH.

[Manny98]

Rangz

[Axe]

Yeah for sure. I guess that's why i dont like using goat.
Dude obviously has problems with delusional stans who think mj is the goat in the boards and loves to bump related threads by hurling a lot of propaganda with his copypasta responses which he calls 'facts'. :lol

No wonder he's been hysterical about it and always stressing himself out. It may have been toned down a bit recently but this has been going on for what, like 3 months already? :oldlol:

[Vino24]

Dude obviously has problems with delusional stans who think mj is the goat in the boards and loves to bump related threads by hurling a lot of propaganda with his copypasta responses which he calls 'facts'. :lol

No wonder he's been hysterical about it and always stressing himself out. It may have been toned down a bit recently but this has been going on for what, like 3 months already? :oldlol:

Another dup by axe. You never contribute to the discussion but rather attack someone. It’s similar to a 5 year old who doesn’t get what they want. Most people grow past that stage

[Axe]

Another dup by axe. You never contribute to the discussion but rather attack someone. It’s similar to a 5 year old who doesn’t get what they want. Most people grow past that stage
Talk about hypocrisy. Oh and what dup? This is my only main here, you idiotic simp. :lol

[Vino24]

Talk about hypocrisy. Oh and what dup? This is my only main here, you idiotic simp. :lol

Only account lol.

[Axe]

Absolutely not.

What's the name of the award they give to the finals MVP? I forgot.
Lmao I mean i only made that statement because mj having six fmvps as a case over russell wouldn't count. But then again, they played in two vastly different decades so it is given why bill didn't have one at all.

[guy]

Where does this "modern era" TP MJ fans like to use come from? The NBA doesn't not have an official demarcation like the NFL does (the Super Bowl era) or NASCAR (which literally has a "modern era" designated). There is no cut-off that conveniently begins a few years before MJ began playing.

Post-merger, which is not considered any more or less of a “modern era” cut-off then the NFL’s Super Bowl era. That’s much more then a few years before Jordan played.



Russell retired 16 years before MJ's first season. Was there a drastic change during those 16 years? If so, why no drastic change attributed to the 35 years since 1985? A game in 1965 is more similar to a 1985 game than a 1985 game is to a 2020 game.

Huge increase in popularity of the sport plus a much lesser impact from the discrimination towards black people, both of which naturally increases the talent pool significantly, the elimination of an entire league that was taking away a lot of the professional level talent, increasing from 8-14 teams in Russell’s era to 23-29 teams in Jordan’s era, the addition of the 3-point line, etc. I would say a lot happened :oldlol:.

The growth and popularity of the sport has not increased evenly from year to year in a linear fashion during its history. That’s a completely absurd thought. It’s the equivalent of saying the increase in the number of people playing video games today vs 10 years ago is the same as the increase 10 years after the first Nintendo came out. The sport and the league had not “matured” during Russell’s era. It was still very much on the rise.

While the game has gotten more popular today vs Jordan’s era, the increase is not nearly to the same degree – not to mention a lot of the pluses like the international popularity is partially offset by things like the white American not taking up the sport as seriously anymore, more things to do today so greater number of distractions, etc. That’s not even getting into how the quality of players coming in is lower then it would’ve been otherwise because they are coming in one and done vs 3-4 years in college.

And either way, even if you don’t subscribe to the eras being better and actually believe that lesser teams back then just means a lot of players from later eras just wouldn’t have even made it into the league in the 60s – Bill Russell once said John Paxson would’ve been in the stands in the 60s so he wouldn’t have even been able to hit a finals game-winner :oldlol: – a team with less teams all else equal still mean its easier to win in that league. In an 8 team league, the average odds of winning the title is 1/8, and in a 27 team league its 1/27. There’s no denying that. That’s a mathematical fact.


It just seems to be a slick tool to get Wilt, Russell, and Kareem out of the GOAT discussion TBH.
Slick tool? I rarely hear anyone say Kareem didn’t play in the modern era and most of his career was post-merger. And I literally said I can’t complain if someone called Russell the GOAT and what more could we have expected him to do, and I put him at no. 2. What more do you want? Why are you constantly bitching about the same shit? :oldlol:

[Overdrive]

It just seems to be a slick tool to get Wilt, Russell, and Kareem out of the GOAT discussion TBH.

I think somewhere down the line there was a paradigm shift, where the style of players changed so much that most people are able to imagine them in a contemporary line up. Russell is hard to gauge. In the few games available he seems to be above anyone else except maybe Wilt, Oscar, Elgin and Jerry, but there's not much to see we aren't used to today athletic or skillwise, so when it comes to Russell we judge him on a leadership basis that could be true or tall tales.

Obviously he was dominant relative to his era, but so was Jordan, so were Magic/Kareem.

So alot of people take the "could slide into a line up today and was dominant in his era" as a hallmark.

[HoopsNY]

Slick tool? I rarely hear anyone say Kareem didn’t play in the modern era and most of his career was post-merger. And I literally said I can’t complain if someone called Russell the GOAT and what more could we have expected him to do, and I put him at no. 2. What more do you want? Why are you constantly bitching about the same shit? :oldlol:

He's bitching about it because those who consider MJ as the GOAT, but are not 3ball, aren't on a crusade like he is. He thinks we should spend every waking moment creating misleading arguments to disqualify MJ all together. It's pretty sad actually.

[Roundball_Rock]

Another dup by axe. You never contribute to the discussion but rather attack someone. It’s similar to a 5 year old who doesn’t get what they want. Most people grow past that stage

One of his dups (zenmaster something I think) used the same line verbatim the other day that his main account does: doing his shtick of being "ISH board critic" since he adds nothing to the basketball discussion. Signed up to a basketball board to...talk about other posters with the capability to contribute, not basketball. :lol My guess is he is a 14 year old in his mom's basement who gets off on his weird shtick.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's bitching about it because those who consider MJ as the GOAT, but are not 3ball, aren't on a crusade like he is. He thinks we should spend every waking moment creating misleading arguments to disqualify MJ all together. It's pretty sad actually.

You hit the nail on the head. Last Dance made that poster spiral out of control :lol

Earlier I mentioned Jordan's playmaking (as if its not commonly accepted as better), and I get a response with years Bill had more assists, relative to his era. Not more assists PER GAME which again is standard, but more relative to his era :oldlol: Yeah that's what happens when top players in the 60s average less assists. Groundbreaking stuff I know.

[HoopsNY]

You hit the nail on the head. Last Dance made that poster spiral out of control :lol

Earlier I mentioned Jordan's playmaking (as if its not commonly accepted as better), and I get a response with years Bill had more assists, relative to his era. Not more assists PER GAME which again is standard, but more relative to his era :oldlol: Yeah that's what happens when top players in the 60s average less assists. Groundbreaking stuff I know.

You don't have to tell me twice. What's ironic about that is that you can give a well formulated response, and he'll just ignore it and move on to another topic with a long essay of an analysis, that is usually cherry picking statistics with an arbitrary setup of rules.

[Axe]

One of his dups (zenmaster something I think) used the same line verbatim the other day that his main account does: doing his shtick of being "ISH board critic" since he adds nothing to the basketball discussion. Signed up to a basketball board to...talk about other posters with the capability to contribute, not basketball. :lol My guess is he is a 14 year old in his mom's basement who gets off on his weird shtick.
Meltdown. :roll:

Unfortunately, i don't have any dups here, unlike some lbj stans you can find in this board.

Oh and i actually came from another crappy forum called GTPlanet.

[Roundball_Rock]

You give yourself today much credit. 3 or 4 sentences of bemusement is hardly a "meltdown."

[Axe]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/1l5NMPQT2pkYM/giphy.gif