Wilt's unselfish nature hurt his teams chances of success from 1968 to 1973

[coastalmarker99]

I will argue that that Wilt allowing himself to become a role player on offence from 1969 to 1973 hurt him and the Lakers and I love Wilt, but I think his reluctance to shoot really hurt the Lakers in the 1973 Finals. He averaged 8.4 FGA & 11.6 pts and watched McMillian shoot (not well at 39%) 21 times per game.

If Wilt takes a couple of more shots and averages 15 to 18 points a game in the finals the Lakers likely win the title in 1973 with Wilt getting the finals MVP. He showed that in game 5 of that series that he could still bring it on offence why did Wilt not display this from games 1 to 4 in 1973 is a mystery to me.

Also in 1969 Wilt should have taken more shots in the 1969 finals instead of Baylor who was puking all over the floor in the finals shooting 40 per cent and playing horrible defence. If he had shot more and is more selfish instead of being passive like LeBron was in the 2011 finals the Lakers win the title in 5 games despite Bvk being a horrible coach in the finals that year.


We see in 1970 through the first nine games of that season before Wilt's knee injury that Wilt was still a monster offensively leading the league in scoring and efficiency and he was going to have a serious case to be the MVP that year if he never got hurt. It is clear to me that Wilt should have made himself the lakers first option sooner with West being made into his second fiddle on offence as the Lakers and Wilt would have been far better for it.

Therefore if Wilt was more selfish scoring-wise with the Lakers instead of copying Russell and being even more passive then him on offence, instead of playing the, I don't shoot. But still, when I do, I shoot 70% from the field and taking 0 to 6 shots in crucial games that the Lakers lost and instead imposed his will offensively instead of being a role player on offence from 1968 to 1973.

There is a higher chance the Lakers win the title in 1969 and 1970 and 1973 which. Gives Wilt 5 rings and three finals MVPs in 1970 1972 and 1973 plus a finals record of 5 and 2.And a career scoring average of 34 to 37 points a game and 36,000 to 40,000 points for his career along with 10 to 11 scoring titles.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wilt made up for in 1972 playoffs when he shut down Kareem in the west finals and then he won finals MVP against the Knicks, while Jerry West was shooting terrible all playoff long.

[coastalmarker99]

Here are some crucial moments from 1968 to 1973 where Wilt had to snap back into his mindset from 1959 to 1966 to help his team win and if he had done so his legacy would be totally viewed different nowadays.

Game 7 of the 1968 Ecf where instead of passing the ball most of the game to his teammates who shot a combined 35 percent for the game Wilt instead takes over on offence as he sees his teammates are ice cold from the field and decides it is on him to lead the Sixers to the crucial victory against the Celtics and get his team to the finals that year to have a chance to defend their crown against the lakers.

1969 finals games 4 and 6 if Wilt demands the ball and takes over on offence in game 4 the lakers likely win the game and head back to la for game 5 with a 3,1 series lead and claim the title in a 5 game dominant series victory.

1970 finals game 7 if Wilt had demanded his teammates to get the hell of his way and give him the ball every time down low and decided to abuse Reed's injury and lack of mobility throughout the game and takes over on offence that game as he wants to demoralise the Knicks and the crowd the lakers mostly win that game and the title with Wilt having a monster game like he had the game before.

1973 games 1 to 4 if Wilt is more selfish on offence after game 1 instead of being passive offensively as his teammates including West struggled against the Knicks then the Lakers likely win those incredibly tight games and sweep the Knicks as they win the title that year.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt made up for in 1972 playoffs when he shut down Kareem in the west finals and then he won finals MVP against the Knicks, while Jerry West was shooting terrible all playoff long.

You are right on the money about that year if you watch this link you will see Wilt's incredible defence on Kareem in the Wcf that year as he lead the lakers to the series victory and gave West a championship ring that he was dying to get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz4d7R5-Esc&feature=emb_title

[Roundball_Rock]

33/18/5 is being "shut down"? :confusedshrug:

Oscar was 9/5/6 in the series. That was the difference.

[coastalmarker99]

33/18/5 is being "shut down"? :confusedshrug:

Oscar was 9/5/6 in the series. That was the difference.

yes, he did Kareem shot 40 percent from the floor that series and Wilt shut him down and put the clamps on him in game 6 as the lakers roared back from 10 points down in the fourth quarter in game 6 as the Lakers took the series.

Kareem was incredibly fortunate that Wilt was past his prime and had suffered a career knee threatening injury that robbed him of most of his incredible athleticism otherwise Wilt would have run circles around him and embarrassed him

And also Kareem lucked out having his prime in the 70's when the second-best player in the world doctor J was in the aba who could have stolen some of his MVPs in the mid-'70s and even then he only won one ring in that era where there was no great dynasty for the decade

And also both West and Baylor missed the series when the bucks faced the Lakers in 1971 so it goes both ways it can be argued that the lakers could have beat the bucks that year fully healthy and if they did then Kareem would have won nothing before Magic.

[Roundball_Rock]

46%--subpar for Kareem but "shut down" is overstating it.

Almost no one shot well in that series BTW. Players listed in order of team scoring rank in the series.

McMillin 50% (leading scorer for the Lakers)
West 35%
Goodrich 40%
Hairston 40%
Wilt 45%

Kareem 46%
Dandridge 46%
Allen 44%
Oscar 36%
Perr 49%

Kareem went 33/18/5 on 46%; Wilt 11/19/3 on 45%. Kareem underperformed relative to his norm that season (35/17/5 on 57%), Wilt was old but the narrative runs ahead of reality here.

Agree with the core of your OP, BTW. We need more Wilt talk here. :cheers:

[coastalmarker99]

46%--subpar for Kareem but "shut down" is overstating it.

Almost no one shot well in that series BTW. Players listed in order of team scoring rank in the series.

McMillin 50% (leading scorer for the Lakers)
West 35%
Goodrich 40%
Hairston 40%
Wilt 45%

Kareem 46%
Dandridge 46%
Allen 44%
Oscar 36%
Perr 49%

Kareem went 33/18/5 on 46%; Wilt 11/19/3 on 45%. Kareem underperformed relative to his norm that season (35/17/5 on 57%), Wilt was old but the narrative runs ahead of reality here.

Agree with the core of your OP, BTW. We need more Wilt talk here. :cheers:

I agree with you too man thanks for being respectful in your replies :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree with you too man thanks for being respectful in your replies :cheers:

You are an asset to the forum. 90% of the talk is MJ and LeBron and other greats get overlooked. Wilt has as strong a GOAT case as anyone.

[coastalmarker99]

You are an asset to the forum. 90% of the talk is MJ and LeBron and other greats get overlooked. Wilt has as strong a GOAT case as anyone.

Indeed he does the greatest individual player ever, of course, has a case for the goat title he holds 90 to 100 records to himself and he would have a lot more if they tracked blocks and steals when Wilt played.

[Roundball_Rock]

Indeed he does the greatest individual player ever, of course, has a case for the goat title he holds 90 to 100 records to himself and he would have a lot more if they tracked blocks and steals when Wilt played.

Why didn't they track it then?

[coastalmarker99]

Why didn't they track it then?

I know that due to my research that Wilt had 590 blocks in 81 playoffs games which would be first all-time if he never played another playoff game after that he played 160 games in the playoffs and he more then likely had 900 to 1000 blocks in the playoffs and many triple-doubles and quad doubles.

Wilt was a shot-blocking monster with the 76ers and Lakers and there are some games where he had 15 to 17 blocks in a playoff game like game 1 of the 1967 finals and also against Russell that year in the Ecf he went nuts against Russell that is the biggest ass-kicking a top ten player has delivered to another top ten player ever.

Also in game 7 of the 1969 finals, Wilt had 9 to 12 blocks along with his stats before he left the game hurt in the fourth quarter.:biggums: and that is viewed as a black mark on Wilt legacy by his critics lol



As to why blocks and steals were not being tracked in the 60's and early 70's i don't know why the reason why.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You are right on the money about that year if you watch this link you will see Wilt's incredible defence on Kareem in the Wcf that year as he lead the lakers to the series victory and gave West a championship ring that he was dying to get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz4d7R5-Esc&feature=emb_title

I think your criticism should be shifting from Wilt to Jerry West. Why does Jerry need Wilt to save him in big games just to win the title? Was Jerry pulling a Harden type act? He certainly was in 1972 when he couldn't even shoot 40% FG

[HBK_Kliq_2]

46%--subpar for Kareem but "shut down" is overstating it.

Almost no one shot well in that series BTW. Players listed in order of team scoring rank in the series.

McMillin 50% (leading scorer for the Lakers)
West 35%
Goodrich 40%
Hairston 40%
Wilt 45%

Kareem 46%
Dandridge 46%
Allen 44%
Oscar 36%
Perr 49%

Kareem went 33/18/5 on 46%; Wilt 11/19/3 on 45%. Kareem underperformed relative to his norm that season (35/17/5 on 57%), Wilt was old but the narrative runs ahead of reality here.

Agree with the core of your OP, BTW. We need more Wilt talk here. :cheers:

When your TS takes a 12% decrease from regular season, I'm going to consider you having a terrible playoff series.

Kareem was constantly having big 30+ point scoring games but needed 30+ shots just to do it. 48% TS for the series.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

yes, he did Kareem shot 40 percent from the floor that series and Wilt shut him down and put the clamps on him in game 6 as the lakers roared back from 10 points down in the fourth quarter in game 6 as the Lakers took the series.

Kareem was incredibly fortunate that Wilt was past his prime and had suffered a career knee threatening injury that robbed him of most of his incredible athleticism otherwise Wilt would have run circles around him and embarrassed him

And also Kareem lucked out having his prime in the 70's when the second-best player in the world doctor J was in the aba who could have stolen some of his MVPs in the mid-'70s and even then he only won one ring in that era where there was no great dynasty for the decade

And also both West and Baylor missed the series when the bucks faced the Lakers in 1971 so it goes both ways it can be argued that the lakers could have beat the bucks that year fully healthy and if they did then Kareem would have won nothing before Magic.

Agreed entirely on Kareem. 1 title without a dynasty and about half as many teams as their are today? That's inexcusable. Kareem also always requires a point guard on his team tripling his assists in order to win titles (or two point guards doubling him in assist like 1980). Meanwhile, Wilt wins a title averaging 9 assists and eliminates Celtics.

Kareem in the 70s with Bucks:

1971 - No Jerry West and a weak finals opponent

1972 - West returns and eliminates Kareem. A -12 TS drop for Kareem in west finals from reg season.

1973 - Kareem gets destroyed by Nate Thurmond and knocked out 1st round. This time he manages to not even hit 23PPG or 45% TS

1974 - Kareem gets to the finals and has a big series with a guy who is 5 inches shorter guarding him in Cowens. Game 7 Kareem gets outplayed by Cowens and eliminated despite being on his home court

1975 - No playoffs and a 38-44 record

[coastalmarker99]

Agreed entirely on Kareem. 1 title without a dynasty and about half as many teams as their are today? That's inexcusable. Kareem also always requires a point guard on his team tripling his assists in order to win titles (or two point guards doubling him in assist like 1980). Meanwhile, Wilt wins a title averaging 9 assists and eliminates Celtics.

Kareem in the 70s with Bucks:

1971 - No Jerry West and a weak finals opponent

1972 - West returns and eliminates Kareem. A -12 TS drop for Kareem in west finals from reg season.

1973 - Kareem gets destroyed by Nate Thurmond and knocked out 1st round. This time he manages to not even hit 23PPG or 45% TS

1974 - Kareem gets to the finals and has a big series with a guy who is 5 inches shorter guarding him in Cowens. Game 7 Kareem gets outplayed by Cowens and eliminated despite being on his home court

1975 - No playoffs and a 38-44 record

1976 as well misses the playoffs in his prime and still wins the Mvp if Wilt could not win the award averaging 50 a game and leading his team to the playoffs then Kareem winning the MVP in 1976 is a disgrace.

1977 gets embarrassed by Walton and gets swept and is downright lucky that Bill is hurt after this season as it allows him to keep making the all NBA's first teams.


Also, the west from 1975 to 1979 was incredibly weak besides a good portland team in 1977 if rick barry leads the warriors to the title in 1975 while carrying them in every aspect then why couldn't Kareem do the same instead he misses the playoffs that year as soon as oscar retires.

if Kawhi lebron or Jordan missed the playoffs twice in their first 7 seasons when your supposed to be in your prime in that era they would be ruthlessly criticised by the media and fans for a long time and it would viewed as a black mark on their careers. none of these three players have gotten their asses kicked by their match up like Moses did to Kareem in the 1983 finals he had magic and he still got swept because he got destroyed so badly on the glass by Malone who is very underrated by the way.

[SouBeachTalents]

Agreed entirely on Kareem. 1 title without a dynasty and about half as many teams as their are today? That's inexcusable. Kareem also always requires a point guard on his team tripling his assists in order to win titles (or two point guards doubling him in assist like 1980). Meanwhile, Wilt wins a title averaging 9 assists and eliminates Celtics.

Kareem in the 70s with Bucks:

1971 - No Jerry West and a weak finals opponent

1972 - West returns and eliminates Kareem. A -12 TS drop for Kareem in west finals from reg season.

1973 - Kareem gets destroyed by Nate Thurmond and knocked out 1st round. This time he manages to not even hit 23PPG or 45% TS

1974 - Kareem gets to the finals and has a big series with a guy who is 5 inches shorter guarding him in Cowens. Game 7 Kareem gets outplayed by Cowens and eliminated despite being on his home court

1975 - No playoffs and a 38-44 record
Kareem > Kawhi

[coastalmarker99]

Kareem > Kawhi

Yes indeed however back to the thread topic Wilt might have cost himself 3 rings in 69 70 and 73 by playing the Russell role the extreme way he did if Wilt has his 1959 to 1966 mindset then he would have had a higher chance of winning those titles i say.


In 1969 through Bvk was one of the worst coaches to ever coach in the Nba and he was rightfully run out of town after the season ended for his sheer incompetence and he sabotaged the Lakers more than anyone that year with his antics towards Wilt and Wilt rightfully so as a result hated his guts.

Secondly here is a quote that helps show us his absolute disrespect to Wilt that year the only player of the '60s who had beaten the Celtics and had won 3 MVPs in a row before he came to the Lakers. When we threw the ball down low to Wilt he'd score every time but it was an awful offence to watch what an absolute muppet this man was and how Wilt was able to stop himself from clocking this idiot is an amazing feat.

So VBK the idiot decided that instead of getting the ball down low and into Chamberlain, where he would score every time that he would have Wilt defer to a past it Baylor

And, of course, Wilt complied unselfishly and he should have not compiled this was the man who won 3 straight MVPs and was the most unstoppable player in the game sacrificing his offence for Baylor and result was Baylor had an alright regular season, averaging 24.8 ppg (West was at 25.9 ppg, and Wilt was at 20.5 ppg and he once again lead the league in efficiency as well.

But Baylor was completely exposed in the playoff as the shell of the player that he once was and shamefully had the WORST FG% on the entire team in the post-season (.38.5.) Puke while taking the second-most shots on the team if Wilt takes control of the offence then the Lakers likely win the title that year if he takes some of Baylor's shots away to himself.

[light]

Wilt won his first title immediately after deciding not to lead the league in scoring again after 7 consecutive seasons.

Literally the same year he decided to do that, he won a ring.

So considering that you cannot blame him.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt won his first title immediately after deciding not to lead the league in scoring again after 7 consecutive seasons.

Literally the same year he decided to do that, he won a ring.

So considering that you cannot blame him.

It could be argued that it was because his teammates finally had the talent to match Russell's teammates in 1967 and not because Wilt changed his playstyle and even then Wilt needed to snap back into his offensive mindset from 1959 to 1966 afterwards with crucial games such as the 1968 Ecf game 7 proving my statement if Wilt had that approach from 1968 to 1973 then the 76ers make it to the finals that year and maybe repeat against the lakers.

[light]

It could be argued that it was because his teammates finally had the talent to match Russell's teammates in 1967 and not because Wilt changed his playstyle and even then Wilt needed to snap back into his offensive mindset from 1959 to 1966 afterwards with crucial games such as the 1968 Ecf game 7 proving my statement if Wilt had that approach from 1968 to 1973 then the 76ers make it to the finals that year and maybe repeat against the lakers.

But that's not how Wilt saw it, and that's all that matters when talking about his motivations.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kareem > Kawhi

Kawhi's playoff run was better then any Kareem playoff run ever. 732 points 62% TS, guarding 2 time MVP Giannis in a backdoor sweep, beating Curry/Dray/Iggy/Klay in the finals.

[Uncle Drew]

Kawhi's playoff run was better then any Kareem playoff run ever. 732 points 62% TS, guarding 2 time MVP Giannis in a backdoor sweep, beating Curry/Dray/Iggy/Klay in the finals.

:roll:

[coastalmarker99]

Kawhi's playoff run was better then any Kareem playoff run ever. 732 points 62% TS, guarding 2 time MVP Giannis in a backdoor sweep, beating Curry/Dray/Iggy/Klay in the finals.

To be fair Hbk has a fair point and Kawhi also did not play with legendary players like oscar and Magic who could do the dirty work for Kareem and set him up for buckets and Magic as well outrebounded Kareem most of the time in the playoffs when they were teammates.

Kawhi was awesome in 2019 but he was even better in the 2017 playoffs and if he is fully healthy against the warriors who knows what happens that year in the Wcf

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1976 as well misses the playoffs in his prime and still wins the Mvp if Wilt could not win the award averaging 50 a game and leading his team to the playoffs then Kareem winning the MVP in 1976 is a disgrace.

1977 gets embarrassed by Walton and gets swept and is downright lucky that Bill is hurt after this season as it allows him to keep making the all NBA's first teams.


Also, the west from 1975 to 1979 was incredibly weak besides a good portland team in 1977 if rick barry leads the warriors to the title in 1975 while carrying them in every aspect then why couldn't Kareem do the same instead he misses the playoffs that year as soon as oscar retires.

if Kawhi lebron or Jordan missed the playoffs twice in their first 7 seasons when your supposed to be in your prime in that era they would be ruthlessly criticised by the media and fans for a long time and it would viewed as a black mark on their careers. none of these three players have gotten their asses kicked by their match up like Moses did to Kareem in the 1983 finals he had magic and he still got swept because he got destroyed so badly on the glass by Malone who is very underrated by the way.

I agree with everything besides Moses being underrated unless you mean strictly peaks. Moses prime wasn't even top 25 ever worthy. 83 was the only time I would say Moses was playing at all time great level. A very good but not all time great run in 81. And that's about it, nothing else to note about his playoff resume.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

To be fair Hbk has a fair point and Kawhi also did not play with legendary players like oscar and Magic who could do the dirty work for Kareem and set him up for buckets and Magic as well outrebounded Kareem most of the time in the playoffs when they were teammates.

Kawhi was awesome in 2019 but he was even better in the 2017 playoffs and if he is fully healthy against the warriors who knows what happens that year in the Wcf

Yes and don't forget the goat carry job vs 76ers when kawhi averaged 34PPG 53% FG and had 7 teammates who shot worse then 45% FG. And in game 7 kawhi had a 48% usage.

Butler is a damn good player and was clear cut best for Miami this year during their great home record. Embiid is arguably the best defensive big in the NBA when he's locked in. The way I see it, the higher Embiid rises on all time great lists is what will dictate how high of a carry job this was by Kawhi.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kawhi's playoff run was better then any Kareem playoff run ever. 732 points 62% TS, guarding 2 time MVP Giannis in a backdoor sweep, beating Curry/Dray/Iggy/Klay in the finals.
Klay missed an entire game and two separate 4th quarters. It looked like we were on track for a Game 7 before he got hurt.

And Kareem has 4 different playoff runs where he averaged more ppg than Kawhi did last year

[Uncle Drew]

HBK is so far up Kawhit'ss that every part of his body except his head has suddenly changed skin color. Very weird obsession, to say the least.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Klay missed an entire game and two separate 4th quarters. It looked like we were on track for a Game 7 before he got hurt.

And Kareem has 4 different playoff runs where he averaged more ppg than Kawhi did last year

Jerry West was out the entire series for Kareem title in 1971 or Dirk missing half the series in Duncan's 2003 title.

Klay was injured in game 2 but warriors actually won that game, Klay returned in game 4 and got destroyed by Kawhi, game 5 was going to be closed out by raptors but durant scored 11 points in 1 point loss, and then Klay misses 4th quarter of game 6.

So all in all, the game 2 win that he missed doesn't count because they won. You're looking at 1 game and a 4th quarter of important play missed? That's not even significant and he played majority of the series. Dirk missed more time in 2003 west finals? And Dirk is like 75 spots ahead of Klay on all time great lists?

As far as Kareem playoff runs and comparing them to Kawhi? You are looking at things all wrong. What you want to do is compare minute sample sizes. Show me a single year playoff run from Kareem that was at least 700 minutes because Kawhi's 2019 run is 900+ minutes. The more mins you play the more worn down you get, that's why Jordan's 1992 year has the worst stats of the 1st 3peat.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

HBK is so far up Kawhit'ss that every part of his body except his head has suddenly changed skin color. Very weird obsession, to say the least.
I just call it how I see it man.

- 2014 kawhi averaged 24PPG in 3 straight finals wins over LeBron.

- 2019 Kawhi averaged 29PPG in 4 straight East finals wins over Giannis.

- 2019 Kawhi was a Durant return away from winning 3 straight and eliminating warriors after game 2 in the finals. They were lucky that Durant saved them.

You want more huh? You can recap this 1960s stuff all you want but come bubble its over for LeBron remember that. Wait til the bubble kawhi will start stacking those rings like pancakes hahahah

[Uncle Drew]

I just call it how I see it man.

- 2014 kawhi averaged 24PPG in 3 straight finals wins over LeBron.

- 2019 Kawhi averaged 29PPG in 4 straight East finals wins over Giannis.

- 2019 Kawhi was a Durant return away from winning 3 straight and eliminating warriors after game 2 in the finals. They were lucky that Durant saved them.

You want more huh? You can recap this 1960s stuff all you want but come bubble its over for LeBron remember that. Wait til the bubble kawhi will start stacking those rings like pancakes hahahah

Cherry picking, nice. Elgin Baylor averaged 61 points per game in Game 5's in NBA Finals series in the year 1962. Wow, would you look at that.

Get that arbitrary ESPN shit out of here.

[coastalmarker99]

Once again though I will say that Wilt made a mistake picking the Lakers. With their declining superstars and lack of depth and idiot of a coach after leaving the 76ers.

Wilt would have far more success teamwise And Individual wise from 1968 to 1973 to 1974 if he had picked New York with Wilt being a Knick I can see him winning titles with them in 1969 1970 1972 and 1973 and maybe even a couple of MVPs if he never gets hurt.

So he would have at least won more titles as a Knick then he did as a Laker and had a greater legacy for it. Also, Wilt would have had a much easier time adjusting to the Knicks system then he did with the lakers system as he and Walt together as teammates in new york with that Once again though I will say that Wilt made a mistake picking the Lakers. With their declining superstars and lack of depth and idiot of a coach after leaving the 76ers.

Wilt would have far more success teamwise And Individual wise from 1968 to 1973 to 1974 if he had picked New York with Wilt being a Knick I can see him winning titles with them in 1969 1970 1972 and 1973 and maybe even a couple of MVPs if he never gets hurt.

So he would have at least won more titles as a Knick then he did as a Laker and had a greater legacy for it. Also, Wilt would have had a much easier time adjusting to the Knicks system then he did with the lakers system as he and Walt together as teammates is a disgusting defensive and offensive duo.

[coastalmarker99]

And Walt deeply respected Wilt as well and would have been more than happy to be Wilt's sidekick from 1968 to 1971 before taking over the team once Wilt slows down due to his age and injuries and with that great deeply balanced supporting cast sounding the both of them, New York would have run riot over the NBA for at least 4 to 5 years and won at least 3 to 5 titles with Wilt being a Knick.

[coastalmarker99]

What a mistake Wilt made picking the Lakers his two best choices at the time in my eyes were to stay as a 76er as a player-coach with the teammates that loved him and the city that adored him or go to New York with the young superstar in Walt Frazier and that supporting cast and a great coach that they had. If Wilt picks one of those two teams he would have 100 per cent won more then 2 rings and 4 MVPs for his career.

[Horatio33]

What a mistake Wilt made picking the Lakers his two best choices at the time in my eyes were to stay as a 76er as a player-coach with the teammates that loved him and the city that adored him or go to New York with the young superstar in Walt Frazier and that supporting cast and a great coach that they had. If Wilt picks one of those two teams he would have 100 per cent won more then 2 rings and 4 MVPs for his career.

The same Wilt Chamberlain who was coach for the San Diego Conquistadors in the ABA but started no showing games?

I like how you're forgetting that Chamberlain was a notorious coach killer. Even Red Auerbach said he wouldn't have liked to coach him. That Wilt had been spoiled by coaches and owners who bent over backwards to placate Chamberlain and not upset him.

Chamberlain was interviewed prior to the playoffs starting by Sports Illustrated where he ripped coach Dolph Shayes. Does that sound like someone who understands coaching?

Chamberlain played a team sport but acted like an individual. He had big numbers but couldn't win consistently.

[Horatio33]

What a mistake Wilt made picking the Lakers his two best choices at the time in my eyes were to stay as a 76er as a player-coach with the teammates that loved him and the city that adored him or go to New York with the young superstar in Walt Frazier and that supporting cast and a great coach that they had. If Wilt picks one of those two teams he would have 100 per cent won more then 2 rings and 4 MVPs for his career.

That Knicks team was built on ball movement and unselfishness. Something that was anathema to Chamberlain. Even when he was being "unselfish" when he lead the league in assists, that was an individual goal he wanted, not to make the team better.

[Jasper]

I see a lot of speculation in this thread...
Wilt hurt his knee , and his shot was affected by it.
When playing with LA he had some real guns with Goodrich, west ..
But West and Big O where at their tail end of their careers and I saw a lot of tightness...
whenever Milwaukee and LA played , it was literally the titan's of the NBA.
Needless to say it was exciting... but to see Wilt play in the early 70's just showed what an athlete he was... (Most bigs their careers are over when they hit 33)

[Roundball_Rock]

I know that due to my research that Wilt had 590 blocks in 81 playoffs games which would be first all-time if he never played another playoff game after that he played 160 games in the playoffs and he more then likely had 900 to 1000 blocks in the playoffs and many triple-doubles and quad doubles.

Wilt was a shot-blocking monster with the 76ers and Lakers and there are some games where he had 15 to 17 blocks in a playoff game like game 1 of the 1967 finals and also against Russell that year in the Ecf he went nuts against Russell that is the biggest ass-kicking a top ten player has delivered to another top ten player ever.

Also in game 7 of the 1969 finals, Wilt had 9 to 12 blocks along with his stats before he left the game hurt in the fourth quarter.:biggums: and that is viewed as a black mark on Wilt legacy by his critics lol



As to why blocks and steals were not being tracked in the 60's and early 70's i don't know why the reason why.


:applause:


When your TS takes a 12% decrease from regular season, I'm going to consider you having a terrible playoff series.

Agree Wilt did a great job on KAJ. We just disagree on how to describe it.

[Psileas]

Agreed, Coastal, people have gone too far when it comes to how much more successful Wilt's teams became when he cut down his scoring in general. It sure wouldn't seem the same if he was playing in the Western Conference since his scoring days, which he did in '64 and led to a Finals trip and a great playoff run in general. I'm also pretty sure cutting down some of his low percentage shots was at least as important. The rest is a matter of how competent your teammates are to blend with the elite scoring you can offer. Mikan had them, prime Kareem had them only for a while and didn't do much when he didn't, Shaq frequently had them, Wilt not so much.
If Wilt is to take some blame for his offense (except the obvious - FT's), it might be that at times he was holding the ball and thinking maybe a bit for too long of what he should do. It wasn't helping, however, that the rest of the guys were feeling so dependent that they'd just dump the ball to him and then do nothing but watch him shoot - IMO, a big factor of why Wilt's teams sometimes didn't thrive enough efficiency-wise. I've seen Wilt getting blamed for this thing and being called less than an elite offensive weapon, and, frankly, I find this almost ludicrous, hence I point out this.
Of course, we know that the other blame, not being physical enough, is wrong, since physicality was mostly era specific, as bigs bullying opponents was a no-no back then and often very minor contact would be whistled as offensive fouls. Not to mention the countless (compared to later on) 3 second violations whistled on bigs, sometimes with no reason. You hardly have the time to become physical when you get exaggerated 3'' violations on the spot.

[getting_old]

Wilt had Dwight Howard tendencies in crunch time.

Bill Russell was Jordanesque for killer instinct.

Poor Wilt would read a headline from Boston saying he was selfish, and made his mind up to be the assist leader that year, giving up free dunks just to try for a dime.

[coastalmarker99]

Agreed, Coastal, people have gone too far when it comes to how much more successful Wilt's teams became when he cut down his scoring in general. It sure wouldn't seem the same if he was playing in the Western Conference since his scoring days, which he did in '64 and led to a Finals trip and a great playoff run in general. I'm also pretty sure cutting down some of his low percentage shots was at least as important. The rest is a matter of how competent your teammates are to blend with the elite scoring you can offer. Mikan had them, prime Kareem had them only for a while and didn't do much when he didn't, Shaq frequently had them, Wilt not so much.
If Wilt is to take some blame for his offense (except the obvious - FT's), it might be that at times he was holding the ball and thinking maybe a bit for too long of what he should do. It wasn't helping, however, that the rest of the guys were feeling so dependent that they'd just dump the ball to him and then do nothing but watch him shoot - IMO, a big factor of why Wilt's teams sometimes didn't thrive enough efficiency-wise. I've seen Wilt getting blamed for this thing and being called less than an elite offensive weapon, and, frankly, I find this almost ludicrous, hence I point out this.
Of course, we know that the other blame, not being physical enough, is wrong, since physicality was mostly era specific, as bigs bullying opponents was a no-no back then and often very minor contact would be whistled as offensive fouls. Not to mention the countless (compared to later on) 3 second violations whistled on bigs, sometimes with no reason. You hardly have the time to become physical when you get exaggerated 3'' violations on the spot.

Thanks for replying and you are right i think if Wilt had his 1967 supporting cast in 1964 or 1962 or his rookie year we would not be arguing that Wilt's scoring mentally hurt his team's chances of success as they would have won titles those years even with Wilt averaging 35 to 50 a game Wilt won titles not because he changed his game after 1966 but because for the first time he finally had a great team around him that could match Russell's teams for depth and talent.


It takes a team to win titles if Jordan has no Pippen to help him out in the playoffs then the same argument that applies to Wilt about his scoring. Hurting his team's chances of success more then likely would have been applied to Jordan but we saw once Jordan had those great supporting casts around him that his volume scoring did not hurt his teams it would have been the same for Wilt in his first seven-year if he had a decent and balanced supporting cast around him compared to what he actually had for his seven years as a warrior and 76er before 1967 and 1968.

[coastalmarker99]

:applause:



Agree Wilt did a great job on KAJ. We just disagree on how to describe it.

Indeed we do but that is what makes debating fun we all have our different opinions about things and that's alright.

[Horatio33]

I've never seen a superstar have so many excuses made for him than Wilt Chamberlain.

On one hand his supporters want to tell us how DOMINANT he was, how SKILLED he was, he was INCREDIBLY ATHLETIC and UNSTOPPABLE, but then the very same posters will blame his teammates, blame the refs, blame the coaching, blame injuries (Bill Russell was stabbed in the arm before one playoff series) and pretty much everything they can grasp onto to defend him from his failures. If he failed once despite his DOMINANCE and ATHLETICISM you can chalk that up to an aberration, but multiple times you have to find the constant problem, and that was Wilt wasn't a team basketball player.

Wilt was a great individual player, but basketball is a team game, and Wilt only grasped that on rare occasions.

[getting_old]

I've never seen a superstar have so many excuses made for him than Wilt Chamberlain.

On one hand his supporters want to tell us how DOMINANT he was, how SKILLED he was, he was INCREDIBLY ATHLETIC and UNSTOPPABLE, but then the very same posters will blame his teammates, blame the refs, blame the coaching, blame injuries (Bill Russell was stabbed in the arm before one playoff series) and pretty much everything they can grasp onto to defend him from his failures. If he failed once despite his DOMINANCE and ATHLETICISM you can chalk that up to an aberration, but multiple times you have to find the constant problem, and that was Wilt wasn't a team basketball player.

Wilt was a great individual player, but basketball is a team game, and Wilt only grasped that on rare occasions.


One of a kind

[coastalmarker99]

I've never seen a superstar have so many excuses made for him than Wilt Chamberlain.

On one hand his supporters want to tell us how DOMINANT he was, how SKILLED he was, he was INCREDIBLY ATHLETIC and UNSTOPPABLE, but then the very same posters will blame his teammates, blame the refs, blame the coaching, blame injuries (Bill Russell was stabbed in the arm before one playoff series) and pretty much everything they can grasp onto to defend him from his failures. If he failed once despite his DOMINANCE and ATHLETICISM you can chalk that up to an aberration, but multiple times you have to find the constant problem, and that was Wilt wasn't a team basketball player.

Wilt was a great individual player, but basketball is a team game, and Wilt only grasped that on rare occasions.

Well, Horatio, the data backs up the argument that Russell had the better teams compared to Wilt and that Wilt's teammates had a habit of letting Wilt down in the playoffs. Wilt gasped that basketball was a team game from the start of his career and if he had not grasped it then he would have never changed his playstyle with the 76ers and Lakers and instead kept scoring like he had done so from 1959 to 1966.

Wilt was asked by his coaches teammates and ownership to score for them and most of his teammates admit that Wilt had to bear most of the offensive load for his teams as they were not great on offence and shot subpar from the field compared to Wilt who was incredibly efficient for his time.

Here is some data to back up my points

Wilt's FG% and his teammates FG% in first 5 PO series against the Celtics:

Year WC team Mates

1960 .50.0 .37.5

1962 .46.8 .35.4

1964 .51.7 .34.8

1965 .55.5 .38.2

1966 .50.9 .35.2

Gee, I wonder why Wilt took so many of his team's shots during his first seven years

Also as well Overall FG% in 49 PO games: .50.8 Wilt .38.7 Wilt's team mates

.41.7 Russell .40.6 Russ' teammates

Also, Russ' mates were much better FT shooters in the 49 PO games: .77.3 Russ' mates .72.8 Wilt's

Also as well I examined all 49 PO games of Wilt vs Russell I tracked data in four categories: TS%, Pts, Reb, Ast.

The overall data showed this: PTS: Wilt: 43-6 (Wilt had more points than BR in 43 games vs. 6 games for Russ.) REB: Wilt: 32-18 (1 tie) AST: BR: 27-15 (7 ties) TS%: Wilt: 32-17

I figured out Russ/Wilt’s teammates’ data by subtracting Russ/Wilt’s stats from team stats.

PTS: BR's teammates: 40-9 (BR teammates had more points than Wilt's in 40 of those games, vs. 9 for Wilt's mates.) REB: BR teammates, 33-15 (1 tie) AST: BR teammates: 28-16-5 TS%: BR teammates, 26-23

Celtics were 29-20 against Wilt's teams in the playoffs, and four-game 7's against him by a total combined margin of 9 points think about that if 10 points goes Wilt's way then he has 6 rings and Russell now has 7 rings despite having the lesser teams most of the time against Russell's teams.

Also if Chamberlain was truly selfish as you say he was he would have never sacrificed his scoring numbers after 1966. Wilt could have averaged 37 points a game for his career and lead the NBA in scoring every year until he had retired if he had wanted to.

[getting_old]

Well, Horatio, the data backs up the argument that Russell had the better teams compared to Wilt and that Wilt's teammates had a habit of letting Wilt down in the playoffs. Wilt gasped that basketball was a team game from the start of his career and if he had not grasped it then he would have never changed his playstyle with the 76ers and Lakers and instead kept scoring like he had done so from 1959 to 1966.

Wilt was asked by his coaches teammates and ownership to score for them and most of his teammates admit that Wilt had to bear most of the offensive load for his teams as they were not great on offence and shot subpar from the field compared to Wilt who was incredibly efficient for his time.

Here is some data to back up my points

Wilt's FG% and his teammates FG% in first 5 PO series against the Celtics:

Year WC team Mates

1960 .50.0 .37.5

1962 .46.8 .35.4

1964 .51.7 .34.8

1965 .55.5 .38.2

1966 .50.9 .35.2

Gee, I wonder why Wilt took so many of his team's shots during his first seven years

Also as well Overall FG% in 49 PO games: .50.8 Wilt .38.7 Wilt's team mates

.41.7 Russell .40.6 Russ' teammates

Also, Russ' mates were much better FT shooters in the 49 PO games: .77.3 Russ' mates .72.8 Wilt's

Also as well I examined all 49 PO games of Wilt vs Russell I tracked data in four categories: TS%, Pts, Reb, Ast.

The overall data showed this: PTS: Wilt: 43-6 (Wilt had more points than BR in 43 games vs. 6 games for Russ.) REB: Wilt: 32-18 (1 tie) AST: BR: 27-15 (7 ties) TS%: Wilt: 32-17

I figured out Russ/Wilt’s teammates’ data by subtracting Russ/Wilt’s stats from team stats.

PTS: BR's teammates: 40-9 (BR teammates had more points than Wilt's in 40 of those games, vs. 9 for Wilt's mates.) REB: BR teammates, 33-15 (1 tie) AST: BR teammates: 28-16-5 TS%: BR teammates, 26-23

Celtics were 29-20 against Wilt's teams in the playoffs, and four-game 7's against him by a total combined margin of 9 points think about that if 10 points goes Wilt's way then he has 6 rings and Russell now has 7 rings despite having the lesser teams most of the time against Russell's teams.

Also if Chamberlain was truly selfish as you say he was he would have never sacrificed his scoring numbers after 1966. Wilt could have averaged 37 points a game for his career and lead the NBA in scoring every year until he had retired if he had wanted to.


Not a hope that Wilt didn't have the better teams in 1968, 1969 (absolutely criminal theft the C's beat Wilt's teams) and then way more against the Knicks in 1970 and 1973...

He only won when his team was 25+ better, lost a lot merely being 20 points better.

[coastalmarker99]

In 8 elimination games vs Russell
Wilt 215 pts v Russell 113 pts.

7x won by Celtics by a combined 25 pts

4x won by a Celtic not name Russell
-Heinsohn tip-in
-S. Jones buzzer-beater
-Havlicek steals the ball
-Nelson winner

Wilt was very unlucky to lose some of that elimination games despite playing phenomenal the majority of the time in these elimination games.

Celtics won the 7 elimination games against Wilt by a combined total of 25 points (average 3.5 point victory). What if I told you that 4 of those 7 series that Bill Russell's teams won, they won on a game-winning shot or steal by a Celtic not named Bill Russell. What if Bill Russell's teammates missed those shots? Would the Russell Narrative be different? What does 4 clutch plays by the other team really say about Wilt Chamberlain being a winner or a loser?

Its a narrative-driven by 11 championships > 2 championships. Russell deserves a lot of credit for the 11 championships. And Wilt may deserve some of the criticism. But definitely not the extent in which they are viewed. I know for the Russell supporters regular season does not matter, but did you know that Wilt beat out Russell in the ALL NBA 1st Team 7x (Russell beat out Wilt 2x). That is an individual award. Championships are a team award.

[getting_old]

In 8 elimination games vs Russell
Wilt 215 pts v Russell 113 pts.

7x won by Celtics by a combined 25 pts

4x won by a Celtic not name Russell
-Heinsohn tip-in
-S. Jones buzzer-beater
-Havlicek steals the ball
-Nelson winner

Wilt was very unlucky to lose some of that elimination games despite playing phenomenal the majority of the time in these elimination games.

Celtics won the 7 elimination games against Wilt by a combined total of 25 points (average 3.5 point victory). What if I told you that 4 of those 7 series that Bill Russell's teams won, they won on a game-winning shot or steal by a Celtic not named Bill Russell. What if Bill Russell's teammates missed those shots? Would the Russell Narrative be different? What does 4 clutch plays by the other team really say about Wilt Chamberlain being a winner or a loser?

Its a narrative-driven by 11 championships > 2 championships. Russell deserves a lot of credit for the 11 championships. And Wilt may deserve some of the criticism. But definitely not the extent in which they are viewed. I know for the Russell supporters regular season does not matter, but did you know that Wilt beat out Russell in the ALL NBA 1st Team 7x (Russell beat out Wilt 2x). That is an individual award. Championships are a team award.



Russell knew he had to let Wilt do his thing all game, keep it close, and then take him out FTW in the last 3 minutes.


Wilt lost every frgging time when it mattered except 67 and 72 when his team's were so perfect that not even he could screw it up.


Jerry West must have gone postal in privacy for hours on end after every Wilt flake-out loss, until he vomited and passed out. The most perfectionist DRIVEN suppressed-angry man ever and Wilt mentally checking out when it mattered was a fun duo.

[coastalmarker99]

Not a hope that Wilt didn't have the better teams in 1968, 1969 (absolutely criminal theft the C's beat Wilt's teams) and then way more against the Knicks in 1970 and 1973...

He only won when his team was 25+ better, lost a lot merely being 20 points better.

The 76ers in 1968 had almost half their team get injured during that playoff run including Wilt and they were missing for the series their Hof 6 man billy cunningham who may have changed the result of that tight series the 76ers had with the Celtics if he had played despite all the injuries they had endured that year in the postseason.

1969 I agree with you that was theft by the Celtics and Wilt should have won that year

1970 Wilt had suffered a massive career-threatening injury nine games into that season and Wilt was on fire to start the season before his knee injury in the ninth game of the season and his coach said afterwards that Wilt would miss the entire year as a result of his knee injury.

And it was viewed as a miracle that Wilt even came back to play for the Lakers in their playoff run that year and played well despite his lack of agility and mobility which Reed abused Wilt for the first 4 games of the 1970 finals before he got hurt in game 5 of that series and the Knicks had been favoured to beat the Lakers in the finals that year also as they had the MVP in Reed and Hca.

1973 in the finals West was injured and as a result, did not have much of an impact that series and some other key lakers players were also injured that series and the Knicks had six hof on their roster that year they were deeply balanced and powerful like the 2014 spurs were.

[Psileas]

Russell knew he had to let Wilt do his thing all game, keep it close, and then take him out FTW in the last 3 minutes.


Wilt lost every frgging time when it mattered except 67 and 72 when his team's were so perfect that not even he could screw it up.


Jerry West must have gone postal in privacy for hours on end after every Wilt flake-out loss, until he vomited and passed out. The most perfectionist DRIVEN suppressed-angry man ever and Wilt mentally checking out when it mattered was a fun duo.

Pure BS. Wilt brought the Warriors/Sixers back in the last possessions both in Game 7 of 1962 and in 1965 with consecutive points, so the "Russell let Wilt do his game till the last minutes" narrative holds little water. As for screw-ups, I know of a big one in the end of the second game I mentioned, and it belonged to Russell.

[Horatio33]

As for screw-ups, I know of a big one in the end of the second game I mentioned, and it belonged to Russell.

And on the next possession its Sixers ball and the Sixers throw it to Hal Greer because they didn't trust Wilt shooting the free throws because the Celtics would have fouled him, and because of Wilt's failures at the line the pass to Greer gets picked off by Havlicek and the Celtics win.

Thought you'd made a killer point there, didn't you?

[coastalmarker99]

Pure BS. Wilt brought the Warriors/Sixers back in the last possessions both in Game 7 of 1962 and in 1965 with consecutive points, so the "Russell let Wilt do his game till the last minutes" narrative holds little water. As for screw-ups, I know of a big one in the end of the second game I mentioned, and it belonged to Russell.

Indeed Psileas I hate that narrative it is the most Bs narrative in the history of the NBA.

[FireDavidKahn]

Wilt..........Unselfish?


:roll:

[Psileas]

And on the next possession its Sixers ball and the Sixers throw it to Hal Greer because they didn't trust Wilt shooting the free throws because the Celtics would have fouled him, and because of Wilt's failures at the line the pass to Greer gets picked off by Havlicek and the Celtics win.

Thought you'd made a killer point there, didn't you?

Nice job trying to avoid the point that Russell was the one who has made the single biggest blunder among the two and that he wasn't able to stop Wilt at will, but the facts remain and, like you mentioned, Wilt not getting the ball was a result of him being a bad FT shooter, not the result of fear that Russell would stop him. Btw, to add something more, Wilt has actually made the game winning FT's in 2 separate playoff games, something that the "killer" Russell has never done.

[coastalmarker99]

Nice job trying to avoid the point that Russell was the one who has made the single biggest blunder among the two and that he wasn't able to stop Wilt at will, but the facts remain and, like you mentioned, Wilt not getting the ball was a result of him being a bad FT shooter, not the result of fear that Russell would stop him. Btw, to add something more, Wilt has actually made the game winning FT's in 2 separate playoff games, something that the "killer" Russell has never done.

I think he hit game-winning free throws against the hawks in 1970 game 4 and the other game I can't remember