Evaulation of Tim Duncan's career and series of fortunate events

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1999- Duncan had worse advanced stats then Robinson and was basically a 1a at best but certainly not the clear cut best player

02-03 Duncan was a legit offensive superstar. In 2003 he was fortunate enough to avoid Dirk Nowitski for half the west finals and play a 1 man team in nets.

04-08 Duncan was no longer a great offensive player. 2004 Duncan gets locked down by old Karl Malone and plays terrible vs Lakers which kind of proved the 03 win was a fluke, especially since Parker/Manu improved. Manu had to carry the load in entire 05 playoffs. 06 Duncan lost to Dirk despite Jason Terry 1 game suspension and despite home court advantage. 07 Duncan again gets fortunate to play a 1 man finals team, as well as the suspension suns, and avoids Dirk once again. 08 Duncan finally runs into a generational player in Kobe and gets destroyed in 5 games.

You notice the trend of Duncan getting beat down by other generational players like Kobe and Dirk? But beating teams led by Billups, 21 year old LeBron, Jason Kidd in the finals all weak generational players.

2009-2011 Duncan gets fat, going through marriage problems and generally plays like shit. He even averages 13PPG in a 1st round exit during 2011 season.

2012 - Duncan gets lucky GOAT Kawhi came along to save Duncan from crying about his wife cheating on him hahaha. Pop always knew Kawhi was the better player from the very start and that's why even in 2013 finals Kawhi led the team in minutes, that's why Kawhi averaged 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG in the three straight 2014 finals wins. Duncan was still thinking he was a good player by 2016, it was kind of funny. Greg Pop made the decision to turn Duncan into a bench warmer in the playoffs vs thunder because he was playing so bad. Since Duncan retired in 2017, kawhi went on to eliminate Harden, Embiid, Giannis, Curry and has yet to lose a playoff series when healthy.

[Shooter]

Led their team in scoring in the Finals

LeBron: 8
MJ: 6
Shaq, Kareem: 5
Duncan: 4
Kawhi: 1

Only 4 players in league history ever led more teams in Finals scoring than Duncan. Chill :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Funny how you completely ignore Duncan defeating Shaq/Kobe in 2003, a team that had just won 3 straight titles. Duncan was the leading scorer on all his championship teams from '99-'07 and anchored the Spurs defense which was usually in the top 1-3.

[SouBeachTalents]

Duncan > Kawhit

[JohnMax]

So the guy with most championships since Jordan retired is overrated but guys with less rings (Dirk) and guys who can't win organically (Lebron, Durant) are great?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Led their team in scoring in the Finals

LeBron: 8
MJ: 6
Shaq, Kareem: 5
Duncan: 4
Kawhi: 1

Only 4 players in league history ever led more teams in Finals scoring than Duncan. Chill :lol

Kawhi led 2 finals in GmSc and the third one in minutes.

Duncan played 2nd fiddle to Manu in 05 finals, second fiddle to Parker in 07 finals and second fiddle to Kawhi in 2014 finals. He's basically a Pippen besides 99 and 03

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Funny how you completely ignore Duncan defeating Shaq/Kobe in 2003, a team that had just won 3 straight titles. Duncan was the leading scorer on all his championship teams from '99-'07 and anchored the Spurs defense which was usually in the top 1-3.

Phil Jackson wrote about 2003 Lakers in his book "last season" and how dysfunctional they are. How come Duncan couldn't beat Lakers in 2004 either? That makes it look like a fluke that he won in 2003

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So the guy with most championships since Jordan retired is overrated but guys with less rings (Dirk) and guys who can't win organically (Lebron, Durant) are great?

Anybody can win organically if you get guys like Manu/Kawhi/Robinson drafted into your franchise. Dirk had Jason Terry and Josh Howard during his peak years.

[Uncle Drew]

Duncan is probably a top 5 player in NBA history. Kawhit was lucky to come along his path and learn from him.

[Horatio33]

In the last minute of game 6 of the 2013 finals Kawhi bricks a free throw that would have won a championship.

Kawhi led Spurs got knocked out of the 2015 playoffs in the first round with Kawhi disappearing in game 7 shooting 1-7 in the fourth quarter.

Kawhi took a whole season off in 2017/18 to force a move to a different team. Great teammate.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan is probably a top 5 player in NBA history. Kawhit was lucky to come along his path and learn from him.

Sure Duncan is still top 5/8 GOAT even though I have problems with his offense being goat level. There's 2 main issues with Duncan:

1) He should of passed the torch to Kawhi much more quickly.

2) he's not as good as 2017,19,20 kawhi

3) goat level D player but his offense with the exception of 2002 and 2003 was underwhelming for Goat standards. Basically had similar efficiency in 05/07 rings to Pippen in the 1st 3peat.

[Horatio33]

Sure Duncan is still top 5/8 GOAT even though I have problems with his offense being goat level. There's 2 main issues with Duncan:

1) He should of passed the torch to Kawhi much more quickly.

.


Duncan had passed the torch to Parker. The offence didn't run through Duncan in 2012 onwards like it did in the 2000s.

Kawhi was a three and D player until 2014/15. He wasn't good enough to have the offence run through him.

You don't watch basketball. You pull some game score out of your arse but you don't even know how the offence was run when Kawhi was young, because you didn't watch.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan had passed the torch to Parker. The offence didn't run through Duncan in 2012 onwards like it did in the 2000s.

Kawhi was a three and D player until 2014/15. He wasn't good enough to have the offence run through him.

You don't watch basketball. You pull some game score out of your arse but you don't even know how the offence was run when Kawhi was young, because you didn't watch.

I know exactly what happened, tony parker was a selfish piece of shit who didn't give Kawhi a chance. 2012 thunder series tony parker had zero trust in Kawhi. Nobody was giving Kawhi a chance in 2012 and that was Duncan's fault because Duncan was the leader at the time. 2013 Kawhi was leading spurs in minutes and total BPM during the finals but didn't get a chance to take over on offense. Kawhi finally got a chance in 2014 and dominated the finals with 24PPG in 3 straight wins, as well as leading the team in GmSc during the blazers series.

They would of won back to back in 2015 but Tony Parker was being a piece of shit again.

[Uncle Drew]

Sure Duncan is still top 5/8 GOAT even though I have problems with his offense being goat level. There's 2 main issues with Duncan:

1) He should of passed the torch to Kawhi much more quickly.

2) he's not as good as 2017,19,20 kawhi

3) goat level D player but his offense with the exception of 2002 and 2003 was underwhelming for Goat standards. Basically had similar efficiency in 05/07 rings to Pippen in the 1st 3peat.

Yikes, another example of you not having seen the games. The Spurs system shifted from Duncan to Parker before Kawhi was even in the league, lmao. Second of all, Duncan was always going to be the leader in the locker room even if he was playing 3 seconds a game. Especially when their supposed best player Kawhit has severe autism.

[Horatio33]

I know exactly what happened, tony parker was a selfish piece of shit who didn't give Kawhi a chance. 2012 thunder series tony parker had zero trust in Kawhi. Nobody was giving Kawhi a chance in 2012 and that was Duncan's fault because Duncan was the leader at the time. 2013 Kawhi was leading spurs in minutes and total BPM during the finals but didn't get a chance to take over on offense. Kawhi finally got a chance in 2014 and dominated the finals with 24PPG in 3 straight wins, as well as leading the team in GmSc during the blazers series.

They would of won back to back in 2015 but Tony Parker was being a piece of shit again.

How many points did Kawhi score in the other two games of the 2014 NBA finals?

I agree with you about Tony Parker being selfish but Kawhi wasn't ready for high volume offence in 2012 and 2013.

I know you Stan for Kawhi but I think it gets in the way of you looking objectively about the Spurs of that era. Pop wasn't going to turn the offence over to Kawhi in his first three seasons. Kawhi wasn't ready. He didn't come into the league as 2017 onwards Kawhi, he was a kid who wasn't a sophisticated offensive player at SDS, he was an inside player, and he had to learn to play the perimeter with the Spurs. That's why Pop had him watch Kobe and Barkley tapes, to show him what he could become.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yikes, another example of you not having seen the games. The Spurs system shifted from Duncan to Parker before Kawhi was even in the league, lmao. Second of all, Duncan was always going to be the leader in the locker room even if he was playing 3 seconds a game. Especially when their supposed best player Kawhit has severe autism.

Duncan should of showed more leadership and did what was best for the team by getting Kawhi more involved in 2012/2013 years. Tony Parker isn't good enough to be the best player on a title team, that's why he choked in 2013.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

How many points did Kawhi score in the other two games of the 2014 NBA finals?

I agree with you about Tony Parker being selfish but Kawhi wasn't ready for high volume offence in 2012 and 2013.

I know you Stan for Kawhi but I think it gets in the way of you looking objectively about the Spurs of that era. Pop wasn't going to turn the offence over to Kawhi in his first three seasons. Kawhi wasn't ready. He didn't come into the league as 2017 onwards Kawhi, he was a kid who wasn't a sophisticated offensive player at SDS, he was an inside player, and he had to learn to play the perimeter with the Spurs. That's why Pop had him watch Kobe and Barkley tapes, to show him what he could become.

Kawhi wasn't getting much opportunity in games 1/2 and that's why they found themselves tie 1-1. Once they gave Kawhi the ball, they won 3 straight games while Kawhi averaged 24PPG to Duncan's 12. On top of that, kawhi had the highest GmSc in the blazers series also.

From what I've seen of Kawhi, he was ready to be an all-star already by his 3rd season. Spurs just didn't give him opportunity because they were stuck in big 3 la la land. They couldn't open their eyes to pass the torch to Kawhi sooner. If they would of just let Kawhi iso and do his thing on offense, they probably win 3 titles from 2013-2015.

[Shooter]

In the last minute of game 6 of the 2013 finals Kawhi bricks a free throw that would have won a championship.

Kawhi led Spurs got knocked out of the 2015 playoffs in the first round with Kawhi disappearing in game 7 shooting 1-7 in the fourth quarter.

Kawhi took a whole season off in 2017/18 to force a move to a different team. Great teammate.

Murdered

[HBK_Kliq_2]

In the last minute of game 6 of the 2013 finals Kawhi bricks a free throw that would have won a championship.

Kawhi led Spurs got knocked out of the 2015 playoffs in the first round with Kawhi disappearing in game 7 shooting 1-7 in the fourth quarter.

Kawhi took a whole season off in 2017/18 to force a move to a different team. Great teammate.

- kawhi led the team in minutes and BPM during 2013 finals. It wasn't his fault they lost that series. You point at Tony Parker's efficiency.

- Kawhi averaged 20PPG in 2015 and led the team in scoring. It was again Tony Parker's efficiency that lost them the series. On top of that, they didn't have home court and lost by 1 shot. That 1 shot? Chris Paul over old man Duncan barely getting 2 inches off the ground in his embarrassing attempt to block the shot

- sat out the season shit happens. Curry/Durant sat out this season, Jordan sat out his 2nd season, LeBron basically sat out 2019 season.

[Horatio33]

Kawhi wasn't getting much opportunity in games 1/2 and that's why they found themselves tie 1-1. Once they gave Kawhi the ball, they won 3 straight games while Kawhi averaged 24PPG to Duncan's 12. On top of that, kawhi had the highest GmSc in the blazers series also.

From what I've seen of Kawhi, he was ready to be an all-star already by his 3rd season. Spurs just didn't give him opportunity because they were stuck in big 3 la la land. They couldn't open their eyes to pass the torch to Kawhi sooner. If they would of just let Kawhi iso and do his thing on offense, they probably win 3 titles from 2013-2015.

Did you watch how the Spurs team played in 2014? Its wasn't an iso offence and they destroyed the Heat. Green and Mills nailing threes, Ginobili making great passes and cuts, Kawhi blossoming, Boris Diaw and his all round brilliance, Duncan inside, Parker on the pick and roll, it was a TEAM victory.

2013 they had the title in their hands and blew it. No individuals fault, just a team mistake.

2015 Kawhi had chances to be this iso god but in only one game did he show it. He was hesitant and didn't dominate. Parker was injured, Duncan was great but 39 so he could play like he was 25 although he held the Spurs together, hit two free throws with 8 seconds left in game 7.

You look at a team sport as if its tennis. Its not an individual sport where you can critique a single player. Pulling numbers out doesn't show that Kawhi no showed 2015 game 7 or Duncan missing the shot and tip in game 7 2013 Danny Green hitting loads of threes in 2014. There is nuance to watching the game. But saying Kawhi had a higher game score means nothing without knowing who made the big plays, who passed the ball to someone who made a big play, who made stops and who was getting big rebounds or key steals. All you know is 24 points it more than 18, but the guy with 18 might have made 3 key baskets in the last couple of minutes. Nuance.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Did you watch how the Spurs team played in 2014? Its wasn't an iso offence and they destroyed the Heat. Green and Mills nailing threes, Ginobili making great passes and cuts, Kawhi blossoming, Boris Diaw and his all round brilliance, Duncan inside, Parker on the pick and roll, it was a TEAM victory.

2013 they had the title in their hands and blew it. No individuals fault, just a team mistake.

2015 Kawhi had chances to be this iso god but in only one game did he show it. He was hesitant and didn't dominate. Parker was injured, Duncan was great but 39 so he could play like he was 25 although he held the Spurs together, hit two free throws with 8 seconds left in game 7.

You look at a team sport as if its tennis. Its not an individual sport where you can critique a single player. Pulling numbers out doesn't show that Kawhi no showed 2015 game 7 or Duncan missing the shot and tip in game 7 2013 Danny Green hitting loads of threes in 2014. There is nuance to watching the game. But saying Kawhi had a higher game score means nothing without knowing who made the big plays, who passed the ball to someone who made a big play, who made stops and who was getting big rebounds or key steals. All you know is 24 points it more than 18, but the guy with 18 might have made 3 key baskets in the last couple of minutes. Nuance.

I think they could of went with Kawhi Iso ball but Duncan is too old school and wanted to keep posting up.

2013 - It doesn't really matter how you lost, you still lost. If kawhi would of been given an opportunity here, spurs take the series in 5 or 6 easily. Wade was already declining hard here, you took a L because you went with Tony Parker as your scoring threat instead of Kawhi.

2015 they still didn't give the ball to Kawhi enough. Duncan was posting up like its 1998. Out of touch, outdated. If they focused on forcing the ball to Kawhi, they easily win this series as well.

I agree you can't just look at PPG and that's part of what makes Kawhi in 2014 underrated. Outstanding defender and their best defender. Also showed he is their best scorer when called upon. What more can you ask for.

[Horatio33]

- kawhi led the team in minutes and BPM during 2013 finals. It wasn't his fault they lost that series. You point at Tony Parker's efficiency.

- Kawhi averaged 20PPG in 2015 and led the team in scoring. It was again Tony Parker's efficiency that lost them the series. On top of that, they didn't have home court and lost by 1 shot. That 1 shot? Chris Paul over old man Duncan barely getting 2 inches off the ground in his embarrassing attempt to block the shot

- sat out the season shit happens. Curry/Durant sat out this season, Jordan sat out his 2nd season, LeBron basically sat out 2019 season.

2015 game 7 fourth quarter Kawhi had plenty of opportunities to win the Spurs that game, but he went 1 for 7. One basket and he would have got the Spurs into the second round.

Duncan was 39. He had played on one leg for a few years. That's why he wore a big knee brace. But he never sat out a season and quit on his teammates.

In 1985/86 Jordan was desperate to come back. The Bulls management put a minutes restriction on him so he couldn't help the team win and get them a better draft pick. Then Jordan scored 49 and 63 points back to back in a series against one of the greatest basketball teams ever. Kawhi quit on his teammates and didn't want stick around like Duncan had in the late 2000s/early 2010s because Kawhi wanted to play in California.

Lebron had his first Major injury of his then 16 year career in 2018/19. Curry broke his hand. Hands are pretty important in the game of basketball.

[Horatio33]

I think they could of went with Kawhi Iso ball but Duncan is too old school and wanted to keep posting up.

2013 - It doesn't really matter how you lost, you still lost. If kawhi would of been given an opportunity here, spurs take the series in 5 or 6 easily. Wade was already declining hard here, you took a L because you went with Tony Parker as your scoring threat instead of Kawhi.

2015 they still didn't give the ball to Kawhi enough. Duncan was posting up like its 1998. Out of touch, outdated. If they focused on forcing the ball to Kawhi, they easily win this series as well.

I agree you can't just look at PPG and that's part of what makes Kawhi in 2014 underrated. Outstanding defender and their best defender. Also showed he is their best scorer when called upon. What more can you ask for.

2015 game 7 fourth quarter Duncan was 39 and making baskets and free throws. Kawhi was 23 and going 1 for 7 against Jamal Crawford and JJ Redick. Spurs had to go old school because Kawhi disappeared in the fourth quarter.

You say "you" when describing the Spurs. It shows you Stan for one player. That warps your view. You see a basketball TEAM as a bunch of individuals, like a tennis player or a sprinter.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2015 game 7 fourth quarter Kawhi had plenty of opportunities to win the Spurs that game, but he went 1 for 7. One basket and he would have got the Spurs into the second round.

Duncan was 39. He had played on one leg for a few years. That's why he wore a big knee brace. But he never sat out a season and quit on his teammates.

In 1985/86 Jordan was desperate to come back. The Bulls management put a minutes restriction on him so he couldn't help the team win and get them a better draft pick. Then Jordan scored 49 and 63 points back to back in a series against one of the greatest basketball teams ever. Kawhi quit on his teammates and didn't want stick around like Duncan had in the late 2000s/early 2010s because Kawhi wanted to play in California.

Lebron had his first Major injury of his then 16 year career in 2018/19. Curry broke his hand. Hands are pretty important in the game of basketball.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-western-conference-semifinals-warriors-vs-spurs.html

21 year old Kawhi was just .6 lower GmSc then a 24 year old Stephen Curry. That should show you right there he was ready if given the opportunity.

2015 spurs were still going to win the series until old man Duncan got scored on by Chris Paul. Watch the replay, Duncan gives a half ass effort on the block. Old knee lost the series on that 1 shot alone.

All the rest of your post is just speculating. Kawhi has actually said he was having knee pain in 2018.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Nobody played the game of basketball more correct than Tim Duncan.

[Horatio33]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-western-conference-semifinals-warriors-vs-spurs.html

21 year old Kawhi was just .6 lower GmSc then a 24 year old Stephen Curry. That should show you right there he was ready if given the opportunity.

2015 spurs were still going to win the series until old man Duncan got scored on by Chris Paul. Watch the replay, Duncan gives a half ass effort on the block. Old knee lost the series on that 1 shot alone.

All the rest of your post is just speculating. Kawhi has actually said he was having knee pain in 2018.

Also because you love BPM so much, Kawhi was -6.2 in game 7 2015.

[Uncle Drew]

Why did supposed to be leader Kawhit choke on the line in 2013?

[rmt]

- kawhi led the team in minutes and BPM during 2013 finals. It wasn't his fault they lost that series. You point at Tony Parker's efficiency.

- Kawhi averaged 20PPG in 2015 and led the team in scoring. It was again Tony Parker's efficiency that lost them the series. On top of that, they didn't have home court and lost by 1 shot. That 1 shot? Chris Paul over old man Duncan barely getting 2 inches off the ground in his embarrassing attempt to block the shot

- sat out the season shit happens. Curry/Durant sat out this season, Jordan sat out his 2nd season, LeBron basically sat out 2019 season.

You wouldn't be getting 2 inches off the ground too if you were 39 years old after playing 37:17 mins (most on Spurs - 4 more minutes than 23 year old Kawhi) and scoring 27 points 11 rebs on 68.8%FG that game. It was just a great shot.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Also because you love BPM so much, Kawhi was -6.2 in game 7 2015.

That series never goes 7 if Tony Parker actually plays halfway decent. 11 points on 38% TS. Tony was spurs 2nd highest usage player in that series as well! He gave them a 4.9 GmSc for the series.

That's one compliment i give to Duncan, how the hell he ever won anything with Tony Parker on his team. Just shows how great the duo of Duncan with Manu was. Tony Parker cost spurs playoff exits so many years, its a joke.

- 2006 plays awful vs mavs
- 2012 ballhogs vs thunder
- 2013 plays awful vs heat
- 2005 played awful in finals but lucky Manu saved him

And he wins his finals MVP vs the worst finals team in history, so people actually pretend like he had a good career.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Why did supposed to be leader Kawhit choke on the line in 2013?

No offensive flow/rythym. That's why they should of gave Kawhi the ball more. As proven during his 2019 run, he's incredibly more clutch and a better 4th quarter closer then Duncan could ever dream of being.

2019 going into finals, Kawhi was 2nd since 2000 in points under 5 minutes left in 4th quarter during a playoff run.

[Uncle Drew]

No offensive flow/rythym. That's why they should of gave Kawhi the ball more. As proven during his 2019 run, he's incredibly more clutch and a better 4th quarter closer then Duncan could ever dream of being.

2019 going into finals, Kawhi was 2nd since 2000 in points under 5 minutes left in 4th quarter during a playoff run.

:roll:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

:roll:

Have you actually seen prime Kawhi score and prime Duncan score? Kawhi looks like he has been running basketball drills his entire life and made for it. Duncan looks like an awkward swimmer who can't be efficient unless Keith Van Horn in 06 or Raef Lafrenz in 03 are guarding him Hahahha

04,05,07,08 he always had frustrating offensive series

04 - owned by Karl Malone

05 - owned by Rasheed

06 - He lights up mavs because they go small for most of game 7. Once Diop comes in during overtime he owned Duncan as well

07 - shot like crap in finals and his team still swept without him doing anything offensively

08 - owned by Pau Gasol

Then his wife started cheating on him I guess? And he turned into a zombie all the way until 2013.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Is this gimmick a tribute to 3ball or just another one of his accounts? :lol

[Uncle Drew]

Is this gimmick a tribute to 3ball or just another one of his accounts? :lol

Whatever it is, the account is hilarious.

[Carbine]

Tim Duncan played for the most team oriented club of his era. He was never going to put up big scoring numbers consistently because that's not how he played or was coached.

It's why Manu's per game numbers are so low in comparison to the type of player he was. It's why Parker was usually around 16-18ppg for the majority of his prime.

Tim from 2004 to 2015 (By 2016 he was pretty average) in the playoffs shot the ball over 20 times just 1/6th of the time.

If he pushed for and cared about individual scoring - he would have done so at the risk of team success. Same goes for Manu.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Tim Duncan played for the most team oriented club of his era. He was never going to put up big scoring numbers consistently because that's not how he played or was coached.

It's why Manu's per game numbers are so low in comparison to the type of player he was. It's why Parker was usually around 16-18ppg for the majority of his prime.

Tim from 2004 to 2015 (By 2016 he was pretty average) in the playoffs shot the ball over 20 times just 1/6th of the time.

If he pushed for and cared about individual scoring - he would have done so at the risk of team success. Same goes for Manu.

Duncan doesn't take that much shots but still has efficiency issues in many playoff years (04,05,08). That should tell you something about his offense right there.

[Carbine]

So three playoffs define a career.

Alrighty then. Good to know.

[TheCorporation]

Led their team in scoring in the Finals

LeBron: 8
MJ: 6
Shaq, Kareem: 5
Duncan: 4
Kawhi: 1

Only 4 players in league history ever led more teams in Finals scoring than Duncan. Chill :lol

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Axe]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Why do you often respond to your own dups.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So three playoffs define a career.

Alrighty then. Good to know.

2004-2008 playoffs he is putting up 22PPG on 54% TS that's like Pippen 1991/1992 type numbers. Now would you compare that type of scorer to Kawhi? 4 years so that's half his prime from 1998-2008 and he missed the 2000 playoffs.

And should I give you a pass on his 2009-2011 years when he was lazy and averaging 2 playoff wins a year?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

2003 Duncan is the only year that I view as comparable to Kawhi 2017-present. Every other year of Duncan's career can you honestly say he couldn't be replaced with 2009 Dwight Howard and they still win rings with superstar co stars Robinson/Manu in 1999, 2005, 2007?

[rmt]

2003 Duncan is the only year that I view as comparable to Kawhi 2017-present. Every other year of Duncan's career can you honestly say he couldn't be replaced with 2009 Dwight Howard and they still win rings with superstar co stars Robinson/Manu in 1999, 2005, 2007?

2001-02 Duncan was every bit as good (imo, better) than the 2002-03 one as he had to carry them more offensively - the big difference (and all most remember is that they won the championship in 03).

Regular Season
02 Duncan 25.5 pts 12.7 rebs 3.7 asst 2.5 blks
03 Duncan 23.3 pts 12.9 rebs 3.9 asst 2.9 blks

Playoffs
02 Duncan 27.6 pts 14.4 rebs 5 asst 4.3 blks
03 Duncan 24.7 pts 15.7 rebs 5.3 asst 3.3 blks

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2001-02 Duncan was every bit as good (imo, better) than the 2002-03 one as he had to carry them more offensively - the big difference (and all most remember is that they won the championship in 03).

Regular Season
02 Duncan 25.5 pts 12.7 rebs 3.7 asst 2.5 blks
03 Duncan 23.3 pts 12.9 rebs 3.9 asst 2.9 blks

Playoffs
02 Duncan 27.6 pts 14.4 rebs 5 asst 4.3 blks
03 Duncan 24.7 pts 15.7 rebs 5.3 asst 3.3 blks

Ya 02/03 years are comparable to Kawhi's 17/19 years I feel. But if Kawhi has another lengthy playoff run averaging 30PPG in 2020? Duncan doesn't have a playoff run to match it.

I think Duncan is a top 3 defense GOAT and probably even #1 so I'm not criticizing him there. Its his offense outside of 02/03 that I'm skeptical on.