Ben Simmons misses throwing a fish into the ocean.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/y1yQYnagvrU



I have nothing to add.

[FireDavidKahn]

:roll:

[ralph_i_el]

I'm going to be the first to stake out the controversial territory of "Ben Simmons is a gimmick player and is not worth the max"

You need 4 shooters around him and he has to be the primary playmaker as much as possible on offense, because otherwise he's a drag on the team's offense.

[FireDavidKahn]

I'm going to be the first to stake out the controversial territory of "Ben Simmons is a gimmick player and is not worth the max"

You need 4 shooters around him and he has to be the primary playmaker as much as possible on offense, because otherwise he's a drag on the team's offense.

There is a huge difference between being a max player and a top undisputed #1 option on a title team. Ben is absolutely a max player in every sense of the word.

[ralph_i_el]

There is a huge difference between being a max player and a top undisputed #1 option on a title team. Ben is absolutely a max player in every sense of the word.

His major weakness as a shooter is very limiting for his team. His weaknesses at finishing with with his right hand, and his weakness as a free throw shooter, can be exposed in the playoffs.

[Clippersfan86]

People love to attack Ben Simmons, but I will throw it out there that nobody dominated Kawhi as badly as him defensively this year. He completely shut Kawhi down in the H2H. So yes, his shooting is a limitation but he's basically a bigger, stronger Jason Kidd that can defend 4 positions and isn't quite as ball dominant. He's easily worth the max IF you can build around him the right way.

[Roundball_Rock]

His major weakness as a shooter is very limiting for his team. His weaknesses at finishing with with his right hand, and his weakness as a free throw shooter, can be exposed in the playoffs.

Agreed. If he can improve on these things the sky is the limit but until then teams are going to exploit those weaknesses in series.

[GOBB]

Ben is who he is, He's a max player regardless of what is being typed, What people are talking about as far as his game has zero relevance to how one gets paid in the got damn NBA. At what point do fans stop acting as if max players are the limited to a handful of guys? Max deals have never been given out that way. So Bens weaknesses, limitations means zilch.

Ben is Giannis sister. Look alike but one is softer than the other. One stands one squats. One punches holes in the wall the other gets a period.

Also shooting this shooting that. If he could finish a the rim like a badass his shooting woes wouldnt be that big of an issue.

He's a taller version of Rondo

[Kblaze8855]

His major weakness as a shooter is very limiting for his team. His weaknesses at finishing with with his right hand, and his weakness as a free throw shooter, can be exposed in the playoffs.

All but one team is gonna lose anyway. When one gets “exposed” in the process do they like....lose twice?

What does being exposed entail anyway?

When a guy can shoot and his team loses because he can’t play D was his weakness exposed?

What about poor rebounding? Playing hero ball?

Doesnt all losing expose a weakness? If you didn’t have exploitable issues you wouldn’t have lost.

We choose to harp on shooting for some when just as many teams will lose because of defense.

Hes not gonna be the reason his team loses more than most guards who can shoot will be. We will just act like they lose because of him and ignore the 25+ other losers who have a point who can shoot.

[ralph_i_el]

I guess the real issue here is the individual max contract system in general. Teams are getting guys who would be paid $60m/y (if teams were allowed to offer them that much). It gives a huge advantage to the teams who have one of the ~5 guys who are putting up $50m+ production and getting paid $30-40m.

I wouldn't have a problem with a team paying Simmons $30m if teams were allowed to offer Giannis way more than that. It would actually lead to a trade off between hunting stars and building a balanced team.

[Kblaze8855]

I like guys like him who play differently really. Reminds me of the old days when there was more individuality before camps and YouTube tutorials and youth coaches made everyone play pretty similar. Every young guard working on stepbacks now. I like a change now and then. And asI said....he’s gonna lose just like the shooters most of the time.

Not everyone needs to be the same. I enjoy a running hook now and then.

[Lebron23]

He needs to average over 20 ppg in the playoffs if the sixers wants to advance in the conference finals. In today's nba you need to be a good perimeter shooter in order not to be expose in the playoffs.

[tpols]

People love to attack Ben Simmons, but I will throw it out there that nobody dominated Kawhi as badly as him defensively this year. He completely shut Kawhi down in the H2H. So yes, his shooting is a limitation but he's basically a bigger, stronger Jason Kidd that can defend 4 positions and isn't quite as ball dominant. He's easily worth the max IF you can build around him the right way.

jkidd is top 10 all time in 3's... he was much better shooter and passer.

amazingly enough, he made more 3's than Dirk and kobe.

[ralph_i_el]

I like guys like him who play differently really. Reminds me of the old days when there was more individuality before camps and YouTube tutorials and youth coaches made everyone play pretty similar. Every young guard working on stepbacks now. I like a change now and then. And asI said....he’s gonna lose just like the shooters most of the time.

Not everyone needs to be the same. I enjoy a running hook now and then.

I appreciate different players too, but something about this guy rubs me the wrong way. He's brash and confident...but he's missing the most core skill of the game. I think a lot of people have come around to the invisible impact of shooters when they're off the ball, but won't accept the negative impact of a non-shooter on and off the ball. Embiid is a really unique player too, and what kind of great point guard would make it harder for a guy like Embiid to shine?

[Clippersfan86]

jkidd is top 10 all time in 3's... he was much better shooter and passer.

amazingly enough, he made more 3's than Dirk and kobe.

Kidd had a later career transformation on 3 point shooting. He's a career 35% shooter from 3, and only hit 1 per game in his younger years. When you play 19 years, you tend to score a lot more.

[Clippersfan86]

Ben is who he is, He's a max player regardless of what is being typed, What people are talking about as far as his game has zero relevance to how one gets paid in the got damn NBA. At what point do fans stop acting as if max players are the limited to a handful of guys? Max deals have never been given out that way. So Bens weaknesses, limitations means zilch.

Ben is Giannis sister. Look alike but one is softer than the other. One stands one squats. One punches holes in the wall the other gets a period.

Also shooting this shooting that. If he could finish a the rim like a badass his shooting woes wouldnt be that big of an issue.

He's a taller version of Rondo

He's arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA (yes, I honestly would rank him above Kawhi) and can guard 4 positions. Rondo had better vision maybe, but Ben is a WAY better defender than peak Rondo. From a good NBC article.

"Overall, players Simmons has defended have shot just 41.3 percent. Aside from just being able to guard his man, the numbers show Simmons has also been one of the most disruptive players in the NBA. ... He's third in the NBA in deflections and tied for the league lead in defensive loose balls recovered per game."

[warriorfan]

His major weakness as a shooter is very limiting for his team. His weaknesses at finishing with with his right hand, and his weakness as a free throw shooter, can be exposed in the playoffs.

Yes it lowers his value. It makes it more difficult to build around him. It’s possible, but it won’t be easy.

[FKAri]

Obligatory: "My 14 year old cousin is a better 3pt shooter than a professional NBA guard."

[Phoenix]

I like guys like him who play differently really. Reminds me of the old days when there was more individuality before camps and YouTube tutorials and youth coaches made everyone play pretty similar. Every young guard working on stepbacks now. I like a change now and then. And asI said....he’s gonna lose just like the shooters most of the time.

Not everyone needs to be the same. I enjoy a running hook now and then.

I noted that the other day watching a youtube clip of some players. Alot of the guys were more or less carbon-copying similar series of iso moves and yes, 3/4 of them led to a step back.

[Mask the Embiid]

Luka calls him "pop pop or papa ben".He gets to see him 2 times a year and 3 if he's been really good

[Kblaze8855]

I appreciate different players too, but something about this guy rubs me the wrong way. He's brash and confident...but he's missing the most core skill of the game. I think a lot of people have come around to the invisible impact of shooters when they're off the ball, but won't accept the negative impact of a non-shooter on and off the ball. Embiid is a really unique player too, and what kind of great point guard would make it harder for a guy like Embiid to shine?


Let me ask a question.....


You go into a big playoff series.....which is more likely to be a problem?


Having Ben who doesn’t shoot at all or having Trae Young who doesn’t play defense at all?


If the end result is you losing either way.....

Why do we talk so much shit on non shooters when bad defenders have doomed as many teams or more?

Ben can defend the entire lineup of maybe 18-20 teams and most of the lineup of al of them.

Defense wins like shooting does.

Why call him out more than these bum ass defenders hoisting beautiful fade-aways as they give up 60 drives or jumpers a series because they can’t defend the pick and roll? Big shots have won titles but almost all of them are followed or or set up by an equally big stop.

Gotta have both sides. But so many dismiss non scorers as if we don’t watch guys with beautiful scoring arsenals lose for their entire careers.

I just don’t get it. Defense is exposed more than not having a jumper I’d say. It’s at least even.

[ralph_i_el]

I would say that your point guard's ability to shoot is more important than their ability to defend right now. Also, it's a lot easier to go out and get a versatile defender than it is to get a guy who can hit 3's off the dribble and run an offense.

If Simmons really is this world-beating defender, than I must be OVERrating his offense, by the way his +/- on/off numbers look.

[Kblaze8855]

So let me ask you again.

Who makes it less likely you beat a great team deep in the playoffs?

Trae young just had a 30/9 season. Among the few to ever do it. He’s wetting 30-35 footers off the dribble.

Which one hurts you more in a series?

Take a look at plus minus rankings for both since you seem to already have done so for Ben. Tell me what you see. I’m not gonna argue. I just want your opinion

[ralph_i_el]

So let me ask you again.

Who makes it less likely you beat a great team deep in the playoffs?

Trae young just had a 30/9 season. Among the few to ever do it. He’s wetting 30-35 footers off the dribble.

Which one hurts you more in a series?

Take a look at plus minus rankings for both since you seem to already have done so for Ben. Tell me what you see. I’m not gonna argue. I just want your opinion

I can at least try and hide Trae on defense. You can't hide Simmons on offense, because he's only useful when he's handling the ball. I'm going to say that Trae hurts you less, but both guys have a significant weakness that hurts you. If I have Trae, I can go the Iverson route and prioritize defensive role players for my team, knowing that our offensive floor will still be high. One player can't really carry a defense in the same way, unless they're a big who defends the rim and the PnR at an elite level.

[ralph_i_el]

I've been watching old '08 Celtics playoff games, and I'm envisioning how they would defend Simmons or Trae. I feel like Simmons would be an absolute liability against that team on offense.

[GOBB]

He's arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA (yes, I honestly would rank him above Kawhi) and can guard 4 positions. Rondo had better vision maybe, but Ben is a WAY better defender than peak Rondo. From a good NBC article.

"Overall, players Simmons has defended have shot just 41.3 percent. Aside from just being able to guard his man, the numbers show Simmons has also been one of the most disruptive players in the NBA. ... He's third in the NBA in deflections and tied for the league lead in defensive loose balls recovered per game."

You're vastly overrating his defensive ability. He's not WAY better.

[Clippersfan86]

You're vastly overrating his defensive ability. He's not WAY better.

Than Rondo? Hell yea he is. PG defense is vastly overrated. The fact that Ben can guard 1-4 pretty reliably alone makes him have significantly more value defensively.

[GOBB]

Than Rondo? Hell yea he is. PG defense is vastly overrated. The fact that Ben can guard 1-4 pretty reliably alone makes him have significantly more value defensively.

The he can guard 1-4 is nonsense as well. Can he effectively guard the best players at 1-4? No. Its like listening to people say Draymond can guard 1-5, or Centers. Same with Bron. Yet some of these Centers arent even offensive threats. So why even celebrate that feat?

Where was Ben at when Sixers needed Tatum guarded?

For all this defensive prowess it sure aint help the Sixers get past Toronto.

[fsvr54]

No chance Ben is better than Kawhi as a defender. Kawhi doesn't even try anymore til the playoffs.

[Clippersfan86]

No chance Ben is better than Kawhi as a defender. Kawhi doesn't even try anymore til the playoffs.

That's part of it. Peak form Kawhi defensively kills him, but Kawhi is usually coasting.

[Clippersfan86]

The he can guard 1-4 is nonsense as well. Can he effectively guard the best players at 1-4? No. Its like listening to people say Draymond can guard 1-5, or Centers. Same with Bron. Yet some of these Centers arent even offensive threats. So why even celebrate that feat?

Where was Ben at when Sixers needed Tatum guarded?

For all this defensive prowess it sure aint help the Sixers get past Toronto.

Well it's arbitrary to point out that it's only so many centers etc. For example CP3 isn't guarding ANY 4s or 5s. The point is they have the versatility to guard most NBA positions. That's more valuable than PG defense obviously. Every player has bad matchups, doesn't mean they aren't great. Toronto is just a bad matchup.

Rondo was a guy who racked up a ton of steals but metrics show him as a VERY overrated defender in his prime. For example current day Patrick Beverley or CP3 of even 2 years ago have defensive metrics/opponent %s that crush peak Rondo. He just got a lot of hype due to his vocal approach and passing Lanes effort.

[ralph_i_el]

I watched CP3 guard KD in the clutch a few years back. It was surprising. I don't think this adds anything to the conversation, it was just the first thing that came to mind.

Defensive versatility is nice, but you're still only guarding one guy at a time usually. I'll take a player who can play elite D on one position over a guy that plays pretty good defense on 4 positions. It's a team game.

[tpols]

A better analogy would be harden vs gobert... total opposites by equal measure.

Harden can anchor an offense that will win you 50-60 games with pretty much anybody. Could Rudy do that on defense? I dont believe so... What it comes down to is defense is much more team based than offense, where 1 or 2 dominant individuals is all it takes. A single player can beat a defense over and over in a way a single defensive player can't stop an offense. You can't one man army a defense because the ball is going to move a lot and if your fellow defenders suck, the other team is going to score.

That's where the phrase "the best defense is a good offense" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_best_defense_is_a_good_offense#:~:text=%22The% 20best%20defense%20is%20a,strategic%20offensive%20 principle%20of%20war.) comes from...

quote george ****ing washington. :rockon:

Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, and Mao as well.

[fourkicks44]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xT1R9NVGq3oLdc5YGI/giphy.gif

[Chuckbe]

People love to attack Ben Simmons, but I will throw it out there that nobody dominated Kawhi as badly as him defensively this year. He completely shut Kawhi down in the H2H. So yes, his shooting is a limitation but he's basically a bigger, stronger Jason Kidd that can defend 4 positions and isn't quite as ball dominant. He's easily worth the max IF you can build around him the right way.

Wtf are you referring to? I remember watching Kawhi absolutely dominating Simmons on every possession, scoring at will. I looked it up to see if you were referring to a different game but out of the two against Philly, Simmons only played in one and Kawhi had 30 points on 52.2% from the field so what the hell are you on about?

[ralph_i_el]

Great way of putting it Tpols :applause:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

People love to attack Ben Simmons, but I will throw it out there that nobody dominated Kawhi as badly as him defensively this year. He completely shut Kawhi down in the H2H. So yes, his shooting is a limitation but he's basically a bigger, stronger Jason Kidd that can defend 4 positions and isn't quite as ball dominant. He's easily worth the max IF you can build around him the right way.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202002110PHI.html

Completely shut him down hahaha that's funny. 30 points 62% TS, 15.0 BPM and that was in Philly. If that's shut down you must have high standards for Kawhi.

Kawhi will forever be Ben Simmons daddy after last year's 2nd round series: 34PPG 63% and 41PPG in 3/4 wins

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wtf are you referring to? I remember watching Kawhi absolutely dominating Simmons on every possession, scoring at will. I looked it up to see if you were referring to a different game but out of the two against Philly, Simmons only played in one and Kawhi had 30 points on 52.2% from the field so what the hell are you on about?

He likes taking disguised shots at Kawhi because he resents Kawhi for making his franchise relevant.

[tpols]

Great way of putting it Tpols :applause:

to take it further, you could easily have 2 weak offensive players in your lineup and still be fine. Just let them space catch and shoot. But if you have 2 bad defenders in your lineup? the offense is going to consistently target them. And there going to isolate those poor defenders away from the great defender on the team so he cant make an impact on the possession. it's just how it is... great defensive teams cant have weaknesses anywhere where as great offenses can.

[ralph_i_el]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29456646/76ers-coach-brett-brown-thrilled-ben-simmons-power-forward-early-practices

This came out a few hours after my original post. Maybe we're about to see something different?

Embiid talks about Shake Milton playing point guard for the starters in practice. He's a pretty good shooter. We'll see if this opens up the floor any.

[GOBB]

Well it's arbitrary to point out that it's only so many centers etc. For example CP3 isn't guarding ANY 4s or 5s. The point is they have the versatility to guard most NBA positions. That's more valuable than PG defense obviously. Every player has bad matchups, doesn't mean they aren't great. Toronto is just a bad matchup.

Rondo was a guy who racked up a ton of steals but metrics show him as a VERY overrated defender in his prime. For example current day Patrick Beverley or CP3 of even 2 years ago have defensive metrics/opponent %s that crush peak Rondo. He just got a lot of hype due to his vocal approach and passing Lanes effort.

Being able to guard multiple positions is cute but call me when he is guarding the best player on the opposing team when needed. Again where was he when Tatum had his way with thr Sixers?

[GOBB]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29456646/76ers-coach-brett-brown-thrilled-ben-simmons-power-forward-early-practices

This came out a few hours after my original post. Maybe we're about to see something different?

Embiid talks about Shake Milton playing point guard for the starters in practice. He's a pretty good shooter. We'll see if this opens up the floor any.

Shake starting? *facepalm*

[Kblaze8855]

A better analogy would be harden vs gobert... total opposites by equal measure.

Harden can anchor an offense that will win you 50-60 games with pretty much anybody. Could Rudy do that on defense? I dont believe so... What it comes down to is defense is much more team based than offense, where 1 or 2 dominant individuals is all it takes. A single player can beat a defense over and over in a way a single defensive player can't stop an offense. You can't one man army a defense because the ball is going to move a lot and if your fellow defenders suck, the other team is going to score.

That's where the phrase "the best defense is a good offense" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_best_defense_is_a_good_offense#:~:text=%22The% 20best%20defense%20is%20a,strategic%20offensive%20 principle%20of%20war.) comes from...

quote george ****ing washington. :rockon:

Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, and Mao as well.


Thats....not even close to an apt analogy. Much as people complain Ben scores 17 a game with virtually no ability to catch and shoot off others....while also being over 8 assists a game. He’s not dependent on others to contribute on offense.


This is literally the last game he played....




https://youtu.be/FhyW0HB3Z0Y



He’s not a defensive player who contributes nothing but easy dunks on the other end.

He plays every bit of the game outside shooting. And despite the beliefs of many casual fans basketball is still being played when you aren’t shooting.

[fourkicks44]

Being able to guard multiple positions is cute but call me when he is guarding the best player on the opposing team when needed. Again where was he when Tatum had his way with thr Sixers?

TBF he has come a long way since then. His D has improved.

If he is healthy he doesn't have any excuses now.

[tpols]

Thats....not even close to an apt analogy. Much as people complain Ben scores 17 a game with virtually no ability to catch and shoot off others....while also being over 8 assists a game. He’s not dependent on others to contribute on offense.


This is literally the last game he played....




https://youtu.be/FhyW0HB3Z0Y



He’s not a defensive player who contributes nothing but easy dunks on the other end.

He plays every bit of the game outside shooting. And despite the beliefs of many casual fans basketball is still being played when you aren’t shooting.

By the same token he's nowhere near the defensive anchor gobert is. nor the specific offensive liability that throws his teams off whack in the halfcourt.

Before this corona shit, every team in the league would be taking rudy gobert over ben simmons.

[Clippersfan86]

He likes taking disguised shots at Kawhi because he resents Kawhi for making his franchise relevant.

Why would I resent Kawhi? That's silly. Just your own pro Kawhi agenda talking. Kawhi is the best player the Clippers have ever had in my 21 years. Kawhi went H2H 12+ possessions and scored once or twice. He did his damage on others. He literally couldn't get by Ben. Pull up the possession data.

[Clippersfan86]

Being able to guard multiple positions is cute but call me when he is guarding the best player on the opposing team when needed. Again where was he when Tatum had his way with thr Sixers?

Part of that may be that you guys have Thybulle... A top 3 perimeter defender in the game. He doesn't need to guard the best guy every night. Kawhi and LeBron rarely do.

[Clippersfan86]

This is what happens when people talk shit after reading a boxscore without actually watching the game. Kawhi did all of his damage against other defenders. I remember thinking damn, nobody has locked Kawhi like this.


https://youtu.be/5FwoPNz8GWA

Please stop arguing with diehard fans of teams if you're a player Stan or a boxscore clown not watching games.

[Clippersfan86]

Wtf are you referring to? I remember watching Kawhi absolutely dominating Simmons on every possession, scoring at will. I looked it up to see if you were referring to a different game but out of the two against Philly, Simmons only played in one and Kawhi had 30 points on 52.2% from the field so what the hell are you on about?

I posted the film. Kawhi did not do well vs Ben Simmons. You taking 10 seconds to look at a boxscore then come to a conclusion shows willful ignorance and poor basketball knowledge. He did all of his damage vs other defenders.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Why would I resent Kawhi? That's silly. Just your own pro Kawhi agenda talking. Kawhi is the best player the Clippers have ever had in my 21 years. Kawhi went H2H 12+ possessions and scored once or twice. He did his damage on others. He literally couldn't get by Ben. Pull up the possession data.


https://youtu.be/kYYC6MADADQ

Do you have the data? I only saw the game. There's plenty of examples of kawhi owning Simmons in 2020 reg season game

20 seconds in Kawhi blows right past Simmons,

35 seconds Kawhi blows by Simmons again then overpowers him and scores a layup,

55 seconds Kawhi makes a 3 in Simmons face,

1:45 kawhi makes a 3 in Simmons face,

1:55 seconds kawhi crosses Simmons over and makes a pull up jumper in his face, 2:05 Kawhi runs past Simmons and gets a layup,

3:05 Kawhi blows right pass Simmons for a dunk,

3:00 Kawhi drives and spins on Simmons for the basket

Kawhi dominated 76ers. That was the game Embiid owned Zubac and Morris had to stick up for him. Kawhi also averaged 34PPG vs Simmons team when he had Embiid/Butler on his team wow lol

[GOBB]

TBF he has come a long way since then. His D has improved.

If he is healthy he doesn't have any excuses now.

Dont get me wrong Ben is a good defensive player. But my man is making this dude seem like prime Pippen on D

[GOBB]

Part of that may be that you guys have Thybulle... A top 3 perimeter defender in the game. He doesn't need to guard the best guy every night. Kawhi and LeBron rarely do.

Stop it. You're trolling

[Clippersfan86]

Stop it. You're trolling

Man you really hate your team. He's a cream of the crop perimeter defender. I think he's in the mix with Kawhi/Simmons on the perimeter. He ranks behind a handful of bigs probably. He's a top 10 defender overall IMO. Some good film and articles with data below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUxvSp6nN0M

https://thesixersense.com/2020/01/30/philadelphia-76ers-matisse-thybulle-shaping-nba-top-defender/

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/2019/12/19/matisse-thybulle-philadelphia-76ers-defensive-rating-stats-rookie/

[Clippersfan86]

https://youtu.be/kYYC6MADADQ

Do you have the data? I only saw the game. There's plenty of examples of kawhi owning Simmons in 2020 reg season game

20 seconds in Kawhi blows right past Simmons,

35 seconds Kawhi blows by Simmons again then overpowers him and scores a layup,

55 seconds Kawhi makes a 3 in Simmons face,

1:45 kawhi makes a 3 in Simmons face,

1:55 seconds kawhi crosses Simmons over and makes a pull up jumper in his face, 2:05 Kawhi runs past Simmons and gets a layup,

3:05 Kawhi blows right pass Simmons for a dunk,

3:00 Kawhi drives and spins on Simmons for the basket

Kawhi dominated 76ers. That was the game Embiid owned Zubac and Morris had to stick up for him. Kawhi also averaged 34PPG vs Simmons team when he had Embiid/Butler on his team wow lol

Watch my film. I posted it above Kawhi struggled badly with Simmons on him compared to other defenders. It's all relative. Kawhi's still a superstar and going to get his. I was just disappointed that he didn't have his way with Simmons, especially later in the game. I'm not saying Simmons in general has had his number his entire career or something. That one game in February he literally ripped Kawhi multiple times, forced 3 turnovers 1 on 1 and just stopped him in his tracks like 5 or 6 other times. I didn't miss a game all year and I didn't see anyone individually do that to Kawhi this year. For example Raptors (despite us going 2-0 vs them) slowed Kawhi a lot by sending basically triple teams all game. No other team had 1 guy do as much damage defensively on Kawhi as Simmons in that game.

In this video you posted, I'd say Kawhi scored 3x on him straight up (I said 1 or 2, so I'll give you another). Half of these what stands out to me is how incredible the screens Zubac sets are. Kawhi isn't even guarded by Simmons really because he's getting murdered on screens 10 feet away from the catch (especially on the 3's). Even in these few buckets on Simmons he's really well defended, such as the last shot where Simmons is right on him, straight up and Kawhi hits a tough hook shot in the paint.

[GOBB]

Man you really hate your team. He's a cream of the crop perimeter defender. I think he's in the mix with Kawhi/Simmons on the perimeter. He ranks behind a handful of bigs probably. He's a top 10 defender overall IMO. Some good film and articles with data below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUxvSp6nN0M

https://thesixersense.com/2020/01/30/philadelphia-76ers-matisse-thybulle-shaping-nba-top-defender/

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/2019/12/19/matisse-thybulle-philadelphia-76ers-defensive-rating-stats-rookie/

I dont hate my team and I know all about the rookie. You're just going overboard with the ratings. Top 3 perimeter defender already? Nonsense.

[Clippersfan86]

As for Kawhi burning Simmons in the playoffs, the data says otherwise. Look I love Kawhi. He's already the best player the Clippers have ever had. If it was up to me, he'd average 40 ppg and never lose a matchup and we would 3 peat. The reality though is, people on this site have zero ability to be objective for the most part unfortunately.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/sports/sixers/kawhi-leonard-helped-create-ben-simmons-defensive-prowess/2293541/

Early on in that series, Brett Brown tried different players on Leonard. He wanted to show the star different looks and had the likes of Jimmy Butler to also match up. After Leonard scorched the Sixers early in the series, Brown made the decision to keep Simmons on him.

In those seven games, Leonard shot 53 percent (86 of 164). When guarded by Simmons, he shot 40 percent (20 of 50) and just 4 of 17 from three. When anyone not named Simmons guarded him, Leonard hit a scorching 58.7 percent (67 of 114).

While his final shot went down in Game 7, Leonard was held to just 16 of 39 that night. Unfortunately, one of those 16 ended the Sixers' season.

[Clippersfan86]

I dont hate my team and I know all about the rookie. You're just going overboard with the ratings. Top 3 perimeter defender already? Nonsense.

Name the perimeter defenders you think I'm slighting, leaving out your 2 elite Sixers perimeter defenders then.

[3ball]

I'm going to be the first to stake out the controversial territory of "Ben Simmons is a gimmick player and is not worth the max"

You need 4 shooters around him and he has to be the primary playmaker as much as possible on offense, because otherwise he's a drag on the team's offense.




true, and how much does the 1 playmaker and 4 shooter approach win?.... I'm going out on a limb and say barely 1/3 of the time even with super-teams.. he's a poorer man's Lebron... not totally destitute, but poorer

[GOBB]

Name the perimeter defenders you think I'm slighting, leaving out your 2 elite Sixers perimeter defenders then.

Marcus Smart and Pat Beverly. Super easy.

[Clippersfan86]

Marcus Smart and Pat Beverly. Super easy.

Those two complete the top 5 perimeter defenders IMO. I'd have the top 5 perimeter defenders in no specific order as.

Kawhi
Bev
Smart
Simmons
Thybulle

I know you watch more Sixers than I do, but these guys are legit defensive powerhouses on the perimeter. I think sometimes our expectations of defenders are unrealistic simply because good offense almost always beats good defense on a possession by possession basis. You can play amazing D and stay with your man and they will still score. A lot of my views on this are also because we are at a weak point in perimeter defense. Due to the rules now I feel like there are only maybe 10 impact perimeter defenders in the NBA to begin with. Most of the high impact defenders are bigs.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Watch my film. I posted it above Kawhi struggled badly with Simmons on him compared to other defenders. It's all relative. Kawhi's still a superstar and going to get his. I was just disappointed that he didn't have his way with Simmons, especially later in the game. I'm not saying Simmons in general has had his number his entire career or something. That one game in February he literally ripped Kawhi multiple times, forced 3 turnovers 1 on 1 and just stopped him in his tracks like 5 or 6 other times. I didn't miss a game all year and I didn't see anyone individually do that to Kawhi this year. For example Raptors (despite us going 2-0 vs them) slowed Kawhi a lot by sending basically triple teams all game. No other team had 1 guy do as much damage defensively on Kawhi as Simmons in that game.

In this video you posted, I'd say Kawhi scored 3x on him straight up (I said 1 or 2, so I'll give you another). Half of these what stands out to me is how incredible the screens Zubac sets are. Kawhi isn't even guarded by Simmons really because he's getting murdered on screens 10 feet away from the catch (especially on the 3's). Even in these few buckets on Simmons he's really well defended, such as the last shot where Simmons is right on him, straight up and Kawhi hits a tough hook shot in the paint.

So he didn't really shut him down he just avoided him and got shit on less then his teammates pretty much.
Guarding Kawhi for just 30% of his shots taken isn't sufficient enough evidence.

Game 7 Kawhi had to have 48% usage because every player on raptors was scared to do anything. Kawhi still dominated with 41 points and a 11.8 BPM

[fourkicks44]

As for Kawhi burning Simmons in the playoffs, the data says otherwise. Look I love Kawhi. He's already the best player the Clippers have ever had. If it was up to me, he'd average 40 ppg and never lose a matchup and we would 3 peat. The reality though is, people on this site have zero ability to be objective for the most part unfortunately.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/sports/sixers/kawhi-leonard-helped-create-ben-simmons-defensive-prowess/2293541/

Early on in that series, Brett Brown tried different players on Leonard. He wanted to show the star different looks and had the likes of Jimmy Butler to also match up. After Leonard scorched the Sixers early in the series, Brown made the decision to keep Simmons on him.

In those seven games, Leonard shot 53 percent (86 of 164). When guarded by Simmons, he shot 40 percent (20 of 50) and just 4 of 17 from three. When anyone not named Simmons guarded him, Leonard hit a scorching 58.7 percent (67 of 114).

While his final shot went down in Game 7, Leonard was held to just 16 of 39 that night. Unfortunately, one of those 16 ended the Sixers' season.

This is true.

Kawahi was unstoppable THE WHOLE PLAYOFFS. He got his and was always gonna. Just look at his FG attempts.

Simmons was the most effective defender against him.



By the same token he's nowhere near the defensive anchor gobert is. nor the specific offensive liability that throws his teams off whack in the halfcourt.

Before this corona shit, every team in the league would be taking rudy gobert over ben simmons.

Gobert?

Defensive anchor?

He plays on the SAME team as Al Horford AND Joel Embiid!

And usually at the SAME time!






This is literally the last game he played....




https://youtu.be/FhyW0HB3Z0Y




Nobody wants to touch that one, Kblaze.

EVERYBODY wants to pretend like that game never even happened...

[Clippersfan86]

So he didn't really shut him down he just avoided him and got shit on less then his teammates pretty much.
Guarding Kawhi for just 30% of his shots taken isn't sufficient enough evidence.

Game 7 Kawhi had to have 48% usage because every player on raptors was scared to do anything. Kawhi still dominated with 41 points and a 11.8 BPM

Did you watch the video though? He forced 3 turnovers on Kawhi (2 offensive fouls), stripped him multiple times and stopped him in his tracks on drives a handful of times. Remember good defense isn't just the shot attempt man. It's also deterrence.

[ralph_i_el]

This is true.

Kawahi was unstoppable THE WHOLE PLAYOFFS. He got his and was always gonna. Just look at his FG attempts.

Simmons was the most effective defender against him.




Gobert?

Defensive anchor?

He plays on the SAME team as Al Horford AND Joel Embiid!

And usually at the SAME time!





Nobody wants to touch that one, Kblaze.

EVERYBODY wants to pretend like that game never even happened...

Lol you can fawn over the great game he had that Kblaze posted, but he also has games were he's very ineffective. https://youtu.be/tb4XmzPu7zU

[Clippersfan86]

So he didn't really shut him down he just avoided him and got shit on less then his teammates pretty much.
Guarding Kawhi for just 30% of his shots taken isn't sufficient enough evidence.

Game 7 Kawhi had to have 48% usage because every player on raptors was scared to do anything. Kawhi still dominated with 41 points and a 11.8 BPM

No, he forced 3 turnovers (2 offensive fouls) in 1 on 1 possessions, stripped Kawhi twice, got multiple stops 1 on 1 where Kawhi got stopped in his tracks. He played him great as you can, nothing to be ashamed of brother. Nobody this year challenged Kawhi like that 1 on 1. It's not just shot attempts, it's also deterrence of shots that matters defensively. Kawhi's damage mostly came against other defenders as I said, or on plays he had a ton of space from screens. Even on the times Kawhi scored, Simmons played good D.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Did you watch the video though? He forced 3 turnovers on Kawhi (2 offensive fouls), stripped him multiple times and stopped him in his tracks on drives a handful of times. Remember good defense isn't just the shot attempt man. It's also deterrence.

40% on just 30% shots is your sample size? Jordan had entire series when he shot 40% like vs Knicks. Kawhi averaged 40PPG in game 4 and game 7 wins when guarded by Simmons, so it didn't really ever effect him. Kawhi didn't have 1 bad single game in the 76ers series.

40% on 30% of shots I would say that's still much better then what LeBron did while guarded by Kawhi in 2013 or 2014 finals. Simmons had 15% usage that game 7 and was basically a 2013 Kawhi level player, so relax man.

[FireDavidKahn]

His major weakness as a shooter is very limiting for his team. His weaknesses at finishing with with his right hand, and his weakness as a free throw shooter, can be exposed in the playoffs.

True, but he is basically elite in every other area.

He is absolutely a max player but isn't a #1 option on a title contending team.

[Clippersfan86]

40% on just 30% shots is your sample size? Jordan had entire series when he shot 40% like vs Knicks. Kawhi averaged 40PPG in game 4 and game 7 wins when guarded by Simmons, so it didn't really ever effect him. Kawhi didn't have 1 bad single game in the 76ers series.

40% on 30% of shots I would say that's still much better then what LeBron did while guarded by Kawhi in 2013 or 2014 finals. Simmons had 15% usage that game 7 and was basically a 2013 Kawhi level player, so relax man.

I never claimed in general that Simmons is a Kawhi stopper. That being said in the playoffs last year+ this Feb game he did a fantastic job.

[fourkicks44]

Lol you can fawn over the great game he had that Kblaze posted, but he also has games were he's very ineffective. https://youtu.be/tb4XmzPu7zU

The reason it was impressive is because of the two man game between Embiid and Simmons, which had never been seen before.

The team was virtually at full strength and Brown moved Horford to the bench and was running new offensive plays and options we hadn't really seen before.

Ben and Joel dominated down low together against the Championship favourites, and also destroyed the popular narrative that Simmons and Embiid can't play together and win.

And it was the last game he played, not 2018.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I never claimed in general that Simmons is a Kawhi stopper. That being said in the playoffs last year+ this Feb game he did a fantastic job.

Kawhi never had 1 bad game in the series vs 76ers though. Simmons failed to ever take Kawhi out of his rhythm. 39 points on 20 shots and 77% TS in game 4, game 5 blowout, game 6 kawhi dominated, game 7 kawhi 41 points on 48% usage and kawhi was also Simmons man in the buzzer beater.

[Clippersfan86]

Kawhi never had 1 bad game in the series vs 76ers though. Simmons failed to ever take Kawhi out of his rhythm. 39 points on 20 shots and 77% TS in game 4, game 5 blowout, game 6 kawhi dominated, game 7 kawhi 41 points on 48% usage and kawhi was also Simmons man in the buzzer beater.

He shot 40% with Simmons as his primary defender in that series. I posted it on the previous page. Nearly 60% vs anyone else.

[Sulico]

He's still a great player, because he's able to pass the fish to somebody who CAN throw it into the ocean, and if ocean tries to throw the fish back, he can defend the land.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He's still a great player, because he's able to pass the fish to somebody who CAN throw it into the ocean, and if ocean tries to throw the fish back, he can defend the land.
https://www.humilityofmary.org/images/default-source/default-album/contemplation.jpg?sfvrsn=647d069a_0