Why doesn't David Robinson get more consideration for Defensive GOAT?

[1987_Lakers]

Team stats

89: Year before Robinson; 21-61, -7.45 SRS, 107.9 D rating (+0.1 relative to League average), 13th

90: Robinson Rookie; 56-26 (+35 wins), 3.58 SRS (11.03 SRS turnaround, 2nd best in history), 104.2 D rating (-3.9 LA, 4.0 turnaround relative to LA), 3rd (Lose All-NBA Defender Alvin Robertson, but still improve considerably on the defensive end with D-Rob.)

91: 55-27, 4.30 SRS, 103.3 D rating (-4.6 League Average), 1st D

92: 47-35, 2.81 SRS, 104.1 D rating (-4.1 LA), 1st , DPOY (D-Rob missed 14 games, look at the Spurs with and without him)
-68 G played: 102.6 D rating, 70.4 Dreb%, .512 TS%, +4.7 MOV
-14 G missed: 111.6 D rating (-9 D rating drop)

95: 62-20, 5.90 SRS, 105.4 D rating (-2.9 LA), 5th

96: 59-23, 5.97 SRS, 103.5 D rating (-4.1 LA), 3rd

1997(Season without D-Rob): 20-62 (39 win drop), -7.93 SRS (13.91 SRS drop), 112.3 D rating (+5.8 League Average), 29th (last in DRTG)

vs. Hakeem, 32 games (90-96):
Robinson: 21.8 PPG, 47.8 FG%, .545 TS%, 11.9 Reb, 3.3 AST, 5.72 STL/BLK
Olajuwon: 24.4 PPG, 44.9 FG%, .498 TS%, 12.1 Reb, 3.3 AST, 5.50 STL/BLK

vs. Ewing, 13 games (90-96):
DRob: 25.8 PPG, 53.2 FG%, .576 TS%, 9.9 Reb, 3.2 AST, 5.00 STL/BLK
Ewing: 22.4 PPG, 43.3 FG%, .463 TS%, 11.1 Reb, 2.9 AST, 4.23 STL/BLK

[Axe]

Do you also have the stats from games where he guarded against shaq? Just for reference.

Tia

[1987_Lakers]

Do you also have the stats from games where he guarded against shaq? Just for reference.

Tia

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=0c27O

Shaq without a doubt usually got the best of D-Rob.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt
4. Scottie Pippen
5. Kawhi
6. David Robinson
7. Hakeem
8. Jason Kidd
9. Kareem
10. Dwight Howard

Drob wouldn't even make my top 5 because he lacked playoff success and dominance.

[TheCorporation]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt
4. Scottie Pippen
5. Kawhi
6. David Robinson
7. Hakeem
8. Jason Kidd
9. Kareem
10. Dwight Howard

Drob wouldn't even make my top 5 because he lacked playoff success and dominance.

Are you BronBron23?

[Bawkish]

Because of something something Olajuwon blah blah

[iamgine]

I thought he's widely considered one of the defensive GOAT?

[HoopsNY]

I think in large part due to Hakeem and Tim Duncan coming along winning those two championships where Robinson wasn't the main focus. But you're right, Robinson was one of the greatest defensive players anyone ever saw and he does deserve more consideration.

[RRR3]

Because then he’d start having a case for top 10 and people like pretending D-Rob is somehow below players like Isiah Thomas.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Everything goes back to that 95 series.

After the narrative shifted to Hakeem > Robinson, which I agree with, people concluded the debate was laughable to begin with. A dumb notion but these are the talking points when rings equal priority.

Those 97 numbers are insane. I've seen similar drop-offs on offense. But those are under smaller samples like on/off, not an entire concentrated season.

Its an unpopular opinion but I always thought Dave was better than Tim. And if the roles were reversed, with Dave being in his prime, he would have similar success with Manu and Parker. Look at the casts he had in the 90s. He lacked another go-to sidekick like Hakeem had with Clyde, Shaq had with Penny and later Shaq with Kobe. Dave's best teammates were Sean Elliot and Dennis Rodman in 1995, who we all know isn't known for his *spectacular* scoring.

Checkout RAPM for the 90s (basically RPM)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/xrapm-per-100-91-14

He isn't rated that high by accident. Dave had indomitable impact.

[warriorfan]

I thought he's widely considered one of the defensive GOAT?

Me too.

[1987_Lakers]

I thought he's widely considered one of the defensive GOAT?

SI didn't even have him in the top 10 a few years back.

https://i.gyazo.com/6f3b31b870475755003a663146f229c2.png

He's generally considered an all-time defender, but I rarely hear his name come up in the top 3-5 discussions.

[guy]

Everything goes back to that 95 series.

After the narrative shifted to Hakeem > Robinson, which I agree with, people concluded the debate was laughable to begin with. A dumb notion but these are the talking points when rings equal priority.

Those 97 numbers are insane. I've seen similar drop-offs on offense. But those are under smaller samples like on/off, not an entire concentrated season.

Its an unpopular opinion but I always thought Dave was better than Tim. And if the roles were reversed, with Dave being in his prime, he would have similar success with Manu and Parker. Look at the casts he had in the 90s. He lacked another go-to sidekick like Hakeem had with Clyde, Shaq had with Penny and later Shaq with Kobe. Dave's best teammates were Sean Elliot and Dennis Rodman in 1995, who we all know isn't known for his *spectacular* scoring.

Checkout RAPM for the 90s (basically RPM)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/xrapm-per-100-91-14

He isn't rated that high by accident. Dave had indomitable impact.

I'd take over Tim over Robinson, but I agree with alot of what you're saying. If they switched places, there successes are about the same. Furthermore, I think even if you put the Duncan in the 90s AND with the teams/coaches he had, they make a few finals but I don’t think they win any championships over the Bulls or even Hakeem’s Rockets. They are probably looked at a lot like some of those WC teams that were successful but never won a title.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Are you BronBron23?

I'm nobody who has ever posted here before, so get that out of your head. I used to post on realgm as HBK_kliq and occasional poster at reddit.

[RRR3]

Everything goes back to that 95 series.

After the narrative shifted to Hakeem > Robinson, which I agree with, people concluded the debate was laughable to begin with. A dumb notion but these are the talking points when rings equal priority.

Those 97 numbers are insane. I've seen similar drop-offs on offense. But those are under smaller samples like on/off, not an entire concentrated season.

Its an unpopular opinion but I always thought Dave was better than Tim. And if the roles were reversed, with Dave being in his prime, he would have similar success with Manu and Parker. Look at the casts he had in the 90s. He lacked another go-to sidekick like Hakeem had with Clyde, Shaq had with Penny and later Shaq with Kobe. Dave's best teammates were Sean Elliot and Dennis Rodman in 1995, who we all know isn't known for his *spectacular* scoring.

Checkout RAPM for the 90s (basically RPM)

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/xrapm-per-100-91-14

He isn't rated that high by accident. Dave had indomitable impact.
I’m curious where you rank DRob on your GOAT list if you have him over Duncan. Top 10?

[Carbine]

Im not old enough to have lived through Robinson's playoffs in the early 90s but I have seen plenty of the games.

I often wonder why people think he would have duplicated Tim's success. Robinson reminded me so much of watching a taller, more muscular Chris Bosh on offense. He was a jumpshooting and open court big man. He could score in the post too, but he preferred shooting jumpers and typically not doing it efficiently when it mattered most - in the playoffs.

You can blame the Spurs supporting cast for not winning titles, but he didn't hold up his end of the bargain in many playoff games

Go through his playoff resume....

90' playoff loss he drops a complete dud in game 1. They lost.

He plays great for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6..... It's going to a game 7 and he throws up a subpar performance. 20 pts on 7/21 shooting isn't getting it done.

Next year in round 1 David is playing great in the first three games. When his team needed him to perform with the season on the line in game 4.... He played 45 mins and only shot 11 times. He scored 18 points with 6 turnovers. He didn't get it done.

'93 against the Suns, game 7 he has another subpar performance in a close game. Shoots 40 percent and Charles hits the game winner in an ISO situation against David if I remember correctly.

In '94 after a great first game to put his team up 1-0.... They lose three straight with him putting up 18ppg on 38 percent. That's not good enough.

We all know about '95

Even '96 the final four games of the series he averaged 15.8 ppg on 42 percent.

That's a whole lot of underperforming offensively when you need it the most

[tpols]

SI didn't even have him in the top 10 a few years back.

https://i.gyazo.com/6f3b31b870475755003a663146f229c2.png

He's generally considered an all-time defender, but I rarely hear his name come up in the top 3-5 discussions.

The more shocking part about that list is no Wilt Chamberlain.

Plus it's an absolute sin to have gary payton and lebron over him, ben wallace, ewing, dwight etc.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I’m curious where you rank DRob on your GOAT list if you have him over Duncan. Top 10?

Well "GOAT" is different than best. Tim is more decorated and we can't take that away from him. Objectively he's got the more accomplished career and its not that close either.

If the topic is best peak and prime or "who was best", I would pick Dave. I don't have a Top 10 list for primes although he'd be on it before Tim would, for sure. Better scorer with greater defensive impact, and faced higher quality centers.

[HoopsNY]

SI didn't even have him in the top 10 a few years back.

https://i.gyazo.com/6f3b31b870475755003a663146f229c2.png

He's generally considered an all-time defender, but I rarely hear his name come up in the top 3-5 discussions.

Don't think LeBron and KG deserve to be on that list above David Robinson, Ben Wallace, Kareem, Bruce Bowen, etc.

[HoopsNY]

The more shocking part about that list is no Wilt Chamberlain.

Plus it's an absolute sin to have gary payton and lebron over him, ben wallace, ewing, dwight etc.

I can agree with having Payton on the list over Ewing at least. Payton was a great on the ball defender who held is own against just about everyone, including MJ.

[Charlie Sheen]

Because then he’d start having a case for top 10 and people like pretending D-Rob is somehow below players like Isiah Thomas.

Why did you choose zeke to make some point about david robinson?

[ClipperRevival]

DRob is truly one of the most athletically gifted players to ever step on an NBA court. And most already consider him a GOAT tier defender.

But people saying he would have more success than Duncan if they switched roles?

Come on. This is where people need to look past eye test athleticism and see who helps you win more. DRob didn't have a dominant post game in the half court and that is everything come playoff time. TD wasn't Shaq or Wilt either but you could run you O through him and still maintain amazing efficiency in the playoffs. DRob relied too much on up tempo points or semi-trans buckets, i.e. easy buckets.

TD was just a better BASKETBALL player. Better athlete is DRob for sure. But there is a difference. TD gets underrated. All he did was consistently win.

[tpols]

I can agree with having Payton on the list over Ewing at least. Payton was a great on the ball defender who held is own against just about everyone, including MJ.

I can't ever put a specific man defender over a legit DPOY anchor. No matter how good he is.

Michael Cooper, Sidney Moncrief, Ron Artest, Tony Allen... there's a ton of man defenders on Payton's level that dont touch the impact of a big man that can defend the rim.

IMO, Scottie Pippen and MJ are the only perimeter players you can put on a top 10 GOAT list.

Duncan and Garnett need to be moved up that list big time.

Wilt replaced with mutumbo, and Ewing with Payton.

[Kblaze8855]

When you look at other bigs numbers vs Wilt it’s clear he made them work way harder for points. Guys like peak Kareem taking 38 shots for 35 points and shit. Mutombo wasn’t a man defender near that level and wasn’t blocking shots like Wilt either.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s really wild how much guys hard to shoot to score on Wilt. Kareem took 171 shots in 5 games and scored 169 points playing straight head to head with a washed up Wilt not coming out of the game ever if Kareem was in. Wilt played 47 minutes a game. Then you go wat h washed up Kareem giving Hakeem 40+ two or three times in a season with him getting pulled off him man to man.

[Axe]

The more shocking part about that list is no Wilt Chamberlain.

Plus it's an absolute sin to have gary payton and lebron over him, ben wallace, ewing, dwight etc.
Fyi that list shows historic great defenders, not scorers.

[ClipperRevival]

When you look at other bigs numbers vs Wilt it’s clear he made them work way harder for points. Guys like peak Kareem taking 38 shots for 35 points and shit. Mutombo wasn’t a man defender near that level and wasn’t blocking shots like Wilt either.

Wilt should've been the GOAT. But he isn't because he wasn't a killer. It's just that simple. To be THAT DUDE, you gotta look to destroy your opposition every time you step on that court. Wilt wasn't that guy. Not obsessed with bball. Not obsessed with proving a point.

Not really his fault though. You can't teach love for the game. MJ had it, Wilt didn't.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I can't ever put a specific man defender over a legit DPOY anchor. No matter how good he is.

Michael Cooper, Sidney Moncrief, Ron Artest, Tony Allen... there's a ton of man defenders on Payton's level that dont touch the impact of a big man that can defend the rim.

IMO, Scottie Pippen and MJ are the only perimeter players you can put on a top 10 GOAT list.

Duncan and Garnett need to be moved up that list big time.

Wilt replaced with mutumbo, and Ewing with Payton.

What about Kawhi? He has effectively guarded Lebron/Giannis and his team won the series because of it. Greg Pop also had Kawhi study a lot of Pippen's defense and I feel Kawhi has picked up a lot of his traits on help defense.

Generally speaking I agree with you, although I would make an exception for Jason Kidd as well since he was the best defender on those elite nets defense teams in the early 2000s.

Those are the big 3 for me on all time great wing defenders: Kidd, Kawhi, Pippen

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wilt should've been the GOAT. But he isn't because he wasn't a killer. It's just that simple. To be THAT DUDE, you gotta look to destroy your opposition every time you step on that court. Wilt wasn't that guy. Not obsessed with bball. Not obsessed with proving a point.

Not really his fault though. You can't teach love for the game. MJ had it, Wilt didn't.

Old wilt locked up Kareem in 1972 WCF, that alone should put him in top 10 defense GOAT.

[Roundball_Rock]

In '94 after a great first game to put his team up 1-0.... They lose three straight with him putting up 18ppg on 38 percent. That's not good enough.

He went from 30 PPG in the RS to 20 PPG as his TS % plummeted 11%. That is a full fledged meltdown as his 56 win team lost in the first round. 94' and 95' were his peak and what happened in the playoffs those years completely altered his legacy and reputation. A lot of people thought he was the best player in the world, better than Hakeem even in 94' and 95'.


What about Kawhi? He has effectively guarded Lebron/Giannis and his team won the series because of it. Greg Pop also had Kawhi study a lot of Pippen's defense and I feel Kawhi has picked up a lot of his traits on help defense.

Yeah, I put Kawhi in that class. Payton too.


Old wilt locked up Kareem in 1972 WCF

34/18/5 isn't being locked up, even if he underperformed due to Wilt's defense (FG % of 46%, down from 57% in the RS).

Being locked up is Ewing scoring 19 PPG in the Finals against Hakeem on 36% FG/39% TS or what Kawhi did when guarding LeBron in 14'.

[NBAGOAT]

people think because of hakeem's obvious advantage on offense, he's obviously better in other aspects too when really drob is comparable defensively. not the best at 1v1 post defense(duncan's better for example) but has great h2h numbers vs other centers and ofc like other rim protectors offers far more value with shot blocking and help defense which is where that athleticism kicks in. duncan wasnt as good switching onto guys as hakeem, drob or kg. Hakeem is great at those areas but had some discipline issues with foul trouble in his earlier years compared to drob and especially duncan. And yes committing fouls is a big mistake since it's gifting free points and that aspect is often overlooked in defense discussions.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He went from 30 PPG in the RS to 20 PPG as his TS % plummeted 11%. That is a full fledged meltdown as his 56 win team lost in the first round. 94' and 95' were his peak and what happened in the playoffs those years completely altered his legacy and reputation. A lot of people thought he was the best player in the world, better than Hakeem even in 94' and 95'.



Yeah, I put Kawhi in that class. Payton too.



34/18/5 isn't being locked up, even if he underperformed due to Wilt's defense (FG % of 46%, down from 57% in the RS).

Being locked up is Ewing scoring 19 PPG in the Finals against Hakeem on 36% FG/39% TS or what Kawhi did when guarding LeBron in 14'.

-12 TS relative to his reg season, 33 shots a game to get 34PPG, destroyed in the closeout game. That's close to being locked up for goat level standards, especially when you lose the series as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

37/25/8 is getting destroyed? 43% is bad for a C--but he took 37 shots, not 12 like Wilt. Jerry West was 8 for 29 in the same game, Oscar 1 for 4 (hurt early).

You guys and your efficiency fixation. :oldlol: They are trying to win the game. He isn't going to take 25 shots instead of 37 to goose his % for 50 years later.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

37/25/8 is getting destroyed? 43% is bad for a C--but he took 37 shots, not 12 like Wilt. Jerry West was 8 for 29 in the same game, Oscar 1 for 4 (hurt early).

You guys and your efficiency fixation. :oldlol: They are trying to win the game. He isn't going to take 25 shots instead of 37 to goose his % for 50 years later.

There's much more efficient ways to average 34PPG then to take 33 shots, that's what Kareem did the entire series. Wilt made sure he played exactly when Kareem played and turned Kareem into a Westbrook/Iverson type scorer. Not trying to shit on Kareem as Oscar played terrible that year. You also have to give credit to Wilt for beating Kareem with West shooting terrible during the series.

[Psileas]

SI didn't even have him in the top 10 a few years back.

https://i.gyazo.com/6f3b31b870475755003a663146f229c2.png

He's generally considered an all-time defender, but I rarely hear his name come up in the top 3-5 discussions.

Laughable list, I'd expect SI to come up with something a little more objective than this ESPN-level thing. Having a top 10 GOAT defenders list with about half of them being perimeter players (if we include prime Rodman's ability to play at the perimeter) is as good as having a GOAT shooters list with half of them being bigs. And the worst of it is that it's missing the absolutely GOAT 1-on-1 defender, Nate Thurmond.

[guy]

DRob is truly one of the most athletically gifted players to ever step on an NBA court. And most already consider him a GOAT tier defender.

But people saying he would have more success than Duncan if they switched roles?

Come on. This is where people need to look past eye test athleticism and see who helps you win more. DRob didn't have a dominant post game in the half court and that is everything come playoff time. TD wasn't Shaq or Wilt either but you could run you O through him and still maintain amazing efficiency in the playoffs. DRob relied too much on up tempo points or semi-trans buckets, i.e. easy buckets.

TD was just a better BASKETBALL player. Better athlete is DRob for sure. But there is a difference. TD gets underrated. All he did was consistently win.

I initially said similar success, not more, but after looking at it a little deeper by lining it up year by year, that might be an overexaggeration. With that said, he doesn’t necessarily have to be just as good as Duncan to win every title. The average version of Robinson in place of Duncan probably wins most of the titles they won from 99 to 07 and a lesser version of him in place of him in 14 probably wins too.

[Phoenix]

Just straight up swapping out Duncan and assuming the team still gets to the finals those years,I can see prime Robinson winning in 2007. That Cavs team was mediocre outside Lebron and he himself wasnt quite ready for primetime at that level as his performance showed. I'll also give him 2014 which was more of a by-commitee effort. I think you can safely sub out a 37 year old Duncan with prime Admiral and they win. So in essence, the Spurs teams that didn't really have a peak version of Duncan could still end up winning if you dropped 95 Robinson in there in place of Timmy. Maybe even up to 98 Robinson.

The 99 season was interesting. The Bulls run was over, the Shaq and Kobe Lakers hadnt taken over yet. The 80s guys/90s MVPs like Barkley, Hakeem, and Malone were out of prime( a 36 year old Malone winning MVP should say something about the state of the league). The new wave of Garnett, Iverson, Kobe still needed some time in the oven. Robinson of course was on the Spurs team that won, as a 34 year old aging star playing behind an ascending Duncan. Could 94-96 Robinson have won that year as the main guy? Depends on who would be his second option, but it's not like the Knicks were a juggernaut in the finals. If Prime Robinson, a solid 2nd guy and the rest of the team are able to get past the Lakers I'd say they take 99. That's kind of a 'it depends' year. But it brings the question of, is a 2nd year Duncan better capable of winning a title than Robinson was at his best?

Robinson wouldn't have gotten that 2003 title in place of Duncan. No doubt in my mind about that. I dont see a peak Robinson led team getting past the Lakers without a really good 2nd option. But just prime Admiral, young Parker/Ginobli, Captain Jack and whatever the equalivent would be for a 38 year old Robinson? Nah.

2005 I can see Robinson dropping 94 playoff numbers against that Pistons D. That ain't getting it done.

David was every bit as talented and maybe even more than Duncan in a vacuum. The nature of his game though, namely his inability to anchor down low in the post and have the team run its offense through him in the playoffs against physical play, is what I feel makes him more subject to underperformance in the circumstances peak Duncan found himself in and thats gonna cost them a few of those titles. I'd safely give him 2 titles, 1 'maybe it depends' and 2 'nahs'.

[Smoke117]

SI didn't even have him in the top 10 a few years back.

https://i.gyazo.com/6f3b31b870475755003a663146f229c2.png

He's generally considered an all-time defender, but I rarely hear his name come up in the top 3-5 discussions.

lol Any list that has Jordan 2nd and Payton 5th shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Axe]

lol Any list that has Jordan 2nd and Payton 5th shouldn't be taken seriously.
Seething.

[warriorfan]

37/25/8 is getting destroyed? 43% is bad for a C--but he took 37 shots, not 12 like Wilt. Jerry West was 8 for 29 in the same game, Oscar 1 for 4 (hurt early).

You guys and your efficiency fixation. :oldlol: They are trying to win the game. He isn't going to take 25 shots instead of 37 to goose his % for 50 years later.

Cringe