Can Clippers become a dynasty?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I think if they just keep putting good role players around their big 3 of Kawhi/George/Harrell, we may have a potential dynasty on our hands. Harrell is playing the Manu 6th man role, while Kawhi/George are a better version of Duncan/Parker.

Kawhi is 29, George is 30, Harrell is 26. That big 3 could hang with any big 3 in NBA history. On top of that, they are still young enough to pull it off. If Kawhi/George/Harrell stay healthy and in prime until 2026 I see them winning at least 5 rings together. All clippers need to do is continue to build 3 and d guys around these three and they have a dynasty on their hands.

The winningest big 3 of all time is Duncan/Parker/Manu and I feel they hold their own with them.

Kawhi > Duncan
George = Manu
Harrell > Parker

[Shogon]

No.

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/4/750x445/954004.jpg

[StrongLurk]

They certainly can as long as Kawhi and PG stay healthy. Honestly it will be a big failure on the Clippers part if they don't win the chip this year (as long as they are healthy and no covid-19 shenanigans).

[dbugz]

best team in the west for sure :bowdown:

[Shogon]

To clarify, I expect the Clippers to win it all this year. But you think Kawhi's quads are going to hold out for 3+ titles? Dubious. A dynasty has to win 3 or more basically... and I don't see that happening.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

To clarify, I expect the Clippers to win it all this year. But you think Kawhi's quads are going to hold out for 3+ titles? Dubious. A dynasty has to win 3 or more basically... and I don't see that happening.

Keep load managing him through out the dynasty. By the 2nd half of the dynasty, Harrell can take a bigger role over aging George. Kawhi doesn't rely on athleticism, he relies on his iq, jumpshot, physical strength. So Kawhi's prime should go til about 2026.

[rawimpact]

I don't think so, Kawhi is on his last leg just like Durant

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I don't think so, Kawhi is on his last leg just like Durant

He just posted career highs in PPG and APG, how is that on your last legs.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Lol imagine Kawhi load managing his way to 5 fmvps. And less than 15k total points. He would be so hard to rank.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lol imagine Kawhi load managing his way to 5 fmvps. And less than 15k total points. He would be so hard to rank.

Prime kawhi fixing to go until 2026 to give him a 9 year prime.

2020 ring
2021 ring
2022 loss to Giannis
2023 ring
2024 ring
2025 loss to Luka
2026 ring

5 rings during his clippers tenure with George/Harrell rotating on who is his 2nd and 3rd wheels. 5 + 2 = 7 finals MVPS for Kawhi by 35 years old and he retires.

[Axe]

To clarify, I expect the Clippers to win it all this year. But you think Kawhi's quads are going to hold out for 3+ titles? Dubious. A dynasty has to win 3 or more basically... and I don't see that happening.
I agree with this.

But if the clippers match or exceed your expectations OP, i would be happy about that.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Shouldn't be talking dynasty about a team that doesn't even have one ring.

[Turbo Slayer]

So many factors have to go right for Kawhi and the Clippers. I don't think they can be a dynasty (depends on how you define "dynasty" in NBA terms) but I do believe they have the ability to go to 3+ Finals (consecutively or inbetween years, doesn't matter to me) and at least win 1 or 2 of them. That's my expections for Kawhi. If Kawhi snags a few more All-NBA selections, All-D selections, and get at least 1 Final MVPs, the LeBron vs Kawhi debates will start to heat up more frequently and become a lot more interesting. Regardless of my opinions, I wish Kawhi and the Clippers luck in the POs this year and in the near future. Of course the Clippers don't even have a ring yet so not sure why we should start labeling them as a "dynasty".

[Clippersfan86]

Shouldn't be talking dynasty about a team that doesn't even have one ring.

This. Let's see if they can even win 1 first. Let's say bad luck happens and Lakers or Bucks win the next two. PG and Kawhi are opting out after next year and if the results are disappointing, no telling what happens with this core. I think personally Kawhi is a lock to stay considering he doesn't wanna play with LeBron and fought so hard to come to LA, not as sure about PG. By then Lou+Pat Bev will need replacing.

[Clippersfan86]

So many factors have to go right for Kawhi and the Clippers. I don't think they can be a dynasty (depends on how you define "dynasty" in NBA terms) but I do believe they have the ability to go to 3+ Finals (consecutively or inbetween years, doesn't matter to me) and at least win 2 of them. That's my expections for Kawhi. If Kawhi snags a few more All-NBA selections, All-D selections, and get at least 1 Final MVPs, the LeBron vs Kawhi debates will start to heat up more frequently and become a lot more interesting. Regardless of my opinions, I wish Kawhi and the Clippers luck in the POs this year and in the near future.

Also gotta factor most dynasties happen with much younger stars. PG just turned 30 last week, Kawhi 29 couple weeks ago. Warriors dynasty for example happened when those guys were around 25 years old.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Also gotta factor most dynasties happen with much younger stars. PG just turned 30 last week, Kawhi 29 couple weeks ago. Warriors dynasty for example happened when those guys were around 25 years old.

Jordan was 33-35 years old during Bulls 3peat in the late 90s. It is possible, especially since Kawhi doesn't rely on athleticism, George can keep being a 3 point shooter and turn into a 3rd wheel by the mid 2020s, Harrell is only 26 years old and may have 5-6 all-star level years left.

[Axe]

The heat and cavs from 2011-18 under bran's guidance each went to four consecutive trips in the finals but i doubt if we can call them a dynasty. I'm guessing that it's more likely applied if they had won more than 2 rings and had at least two consecutive seasons of winning at least 60 games or more in the regular season.

The warriors under steve kerr's tutelage had three of them from 2015-17 and three rings in the last five years while being the western champs for five straight times. Thus, becoming the most recent dynasty today. If the clippers can somehow replicate a similar success to that in the next few years, then they would become a dynasty.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

This. Let's see if they can even win 1 first. Let's say bad luck happens and Lakers or Bucks win the next two. PG and Kawhi are opting out after next year and if the results are disappointing, no telling what happens with this core. I think personally Kawhi is a lock to stay considering he doesn't wanna play with LeBron and fought so hard to come to LA, not as sure about PG. By then Lou+Pat Bev will need replacing.

I don't see that happening unless Giannis or Luka go to a superteam some where. Healthy clippers are a walking 3peat, trust me.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The heat and cavs from 2011-18 under bran's guidance each went to four consecutive trips in the finals but i doubt if we can call them a dynasty. I'm guessing that it's more likely applied if they had won more than 2 rings and had at least two consecutive seasons of winning at least 60 games or more in the regular season.

The warriors under steve kerr's tutelage had three of them from 2015-17 and three rings in the last five years while being the western champs for five straight times. Thus, becoming the most recent dynasty today. If the clippers can somehow replicate a similar success to that in the next few years, then they could become a dynasty.

Ya i see them being similar to Durant's warriors but unlike Durant I think Kawhi is actually happy. So long term, that's where I see a dynasty building if they play their cards right.

[NBAGOAT]

harrell could demand 25mil and I dont think he's an all star though great for a third guy. lou might leave next year since he'll be getting a nice contract too and that will be missed. the alternative is they overpay to resign a 33 year old who should decline soon. the clips wont have cap flexibility with their big 3 to add much. They should be contenders for the next 3-5 years for sure with their big 3 but dynasty is a lot to ask for.

[Axe]

Ya i see them being similar to Durant's warriors but unlike Durant I think Kawhi is actually happy. So long term, that's where I see a dynasty building if they play their cards right.
Or their success could be similar to the spurs. Appearing in the finals every other year while being in the top 3 seeds of the west in three straight seasons.

[ClipperRevival]

I think they can.

I love the pieces.

Kawhi being that ultimate alpha, closing on the O end on top of the GOAT tier D.

PG plays like an alpha when motivated. But he can find his place as 2nd fiddle and thrive.

Harrell is that 3rd wheel in the mold of Grant, Rodman, Bosh etc. Ultimate hustle guy.

You add in Pat Bev, Lou, etc, they got the pieces. They can shut people down defensively on a GOAT tier level and score in the half court with several players. Key is health.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

harrell could demand 25mil and I dont think he's an all star though great for a third guy. lou might leave next year since he'll be getting a nice contract too and that will be missed. the alternative is they overpay to resign a 33 year old who should decline soon. the clips wont have cap flexibility with their big 3 to add much. They should be contenders for the next 3-5 years for sure with their big 3 but dynasty is a lot to ask for.

Lou doesn't fit into a Kawhi team, he's easily replaceable. In playoffs, he's just a guy you want in there when you're team is up 8+ points and have him pound opponent with an offensive burst. Gets picked on far too much on defensive to embarrassing levels.

Harrell on the other hand is an elite 3rd player and maybe even 2nd best if he works on his tunnel vision. Doesn't mind coming off the bench despite having all-star production and slightly better then average on defense. I say they keep him around as that 3rd wheel off the bench.

[NBAGOAT]

Lou doesn't fit into a Kawhi team, he's easily replaceable. In playoffs, he's just a guy you want in there when you're team is up 8+ points and have him pound opponent with an offensive burst. Gets picked on far too much on defensive to embarrassing levels.

Harrell on the other hand is an elite 3rd player and maybe even 2nd best if he works on his tunnel vision. Doesn't mind coming off the bench despite having all-star production and slightly better then average on defense. I say they keep him around as that 3rd wheel off the bench.

I agree with your overall point about lou not fitting but he's not easily replaceable for salary issues. dont think the clips can put out even 10mil for a scoring type. harrell's production is very good but it's not all star lvl right now. The rest of the roster is good right now but will get worse the next 3 years with the cap limitations(see what happened to the warriors from 16-19). That's possibly dynasty lvl during some weak periods but i dont think it is right now. So many teams have at least a duo of stars or a starting lineup with no weaknesses. Not even accounting for kawhi and george's injury history

[Clippersfan86]

I agree with your overall point about lou not fitting but he's not easily replaceable for salary issues. dont think the clips can put out even 10mil for a scoring type. harrell's production is very good but it's not all star lvl right now. The rest of the roster is good right now but will get worse the next 3 years with the cap limitations(see what happened to the warriors from 16-19). That's possibly dynasty lvl during some weak periods but i dont think it is right now. So many teams have at least a duo of stars or a starting lineup with no weaknesses. Not even accounting for kawhi and george's injury history

Harrell is all star level impact wise IMO. Also on a per minute, per possession type standpoint. He's a top 10 rim defender and a stupid efficient scorer this year. I actually DO think he's as elite as it gets for a 3rd option and can easily see him hitting 20/8 type Miami Bosh numbers and impact with a few more minutes per game. Where I disagree with the dynasty talk is more because of PG/Kawhi ability to walk in 1 more year+ guys like Lou/Bev will need to be replaced in 2 years. Then also all of these guys being injury prone. Most talented, deepest team in the NBA, but a lot still has to go right.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I agree with your overall point about lou not fitting but he's not easily replaceable for salary issues. dont think the clips can put out even 10mil for a scoring type. harrell's production is very good but it's not all star lvl right now. The rest of the roster is good right now but will get worse the next 3 years with the cap limitations(see what happened to the warriors from 16-19). That's possibly dynasty lvl during some weak periods but i dont think it is right now. So many teams have at least a duo of stars or a starting lineup with no weaknesses. Not even accounting for kawhi and george's injury history

Harrell's FG% makes it all-star production I think. As long as you have a big 3 of Kawhi/George/Harrell and plug in cheap contract 3 and d guys, they should be the favorite every year. Unless a team really stacks the deck like Giannis to Warriors or something.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Harrell is all star level impact wise IMO. Also on a per minute, per possession type standpoint. He's a top 10 rim defender and a stupid efficient scorer this year. I actually DO think he's as elite as it gets for a 3rd option and can easily see him hitting 20/8 type Miami Bosh numbers and impact with a few more minutes per game. Where I disagree with the dynasty talk is more because of PG/Kawhi ability to walk in 1 more year+ guys like Lou/Bev will need to be replaced in 2 years. Then also all of these guys being injury prone. Most talented, deepest team in the NBA, but a lot still has to go right.

Kawhi is having a career year, I don't see any worries until his production actually declines.

[Clippersfan86]

Kawhi is having a career year, I don't see any worries until his production actually declines.

Kawhi is the only sure thing (healthy of course). It's everything else that's less known.

[Axe]

Kawhi is having a career year, I don't see any worries until his production actually declines.
That means he still has to undergo load management in regular season tho.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi is the only sure thing (healthy of course). It's everything else that's less known.

Harrell - 19/8 and he enjoys coming off the bench
George - if he wins 1 ring will want to stay with Kawhi

Lou you can dump, Beverly can actually stick around for like 5 more years as a 3 and d guy, zubac stays center.

That's basically their team for the next 6 years.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That means he still has to undergo load management in regular season tho.

George/Harrell can dominate in those games, while Kawhi takes over in playoffs. Rinse wash and repeat until 2026. Kawhi may end up taking himself off load management eventually as well, you never know. Maybe after kawhi gets 3 or 4 rings he will think about legacy and have an 82 game season like LeBron in 2018.

[ClipperRevival]

Yeah, Harrell is a bad dude. All out effort guy. Plays winning bball. And most casuals have no idea he is a darn good offensive player either down low or via face up. He can put the ball on the floor and get his own shot against other bigs. Perfect 3rd wheel type guy. Another thing few realize about him? He might have the longest arms ever. LOL.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah, Harrell is a bad dude. All out effort guy. Plays winning bball. And most casuals have no idea he is a darn good offensive player either down low or via face up. He can put the ball on the floor and get his own shot against other bigs. Perfect 3rd wheel type guy. Another thing few realize about him? He might have the longest arms ever. LOL.

That's another thing, look at their big 3's wingspan:

Harrell: 7'4
Leonard: 7'3
George: 6'11

[NBAGOAT]

Harrell's FG% makes it all-star production I think. As long as you have a big 3 of Kawhi/George/Harrell and plug in cheap contract 3 and d guys, they should be the favorite every year. Unless a team really stacks the deck like Giannis to Warriors or something.

I’ll play Devils advocate would say the nets will have add kd to their core and the warriors will have their big 3 back along with Wiggins/paschall and I don’t even think either team is that great.

There’s lakers, bucks, nuggets, raps, Celtics, Jazz, heat, rockets, sizers, mavs etc. all look fairly good though some will disappoint but others will get even better. Yes clips should be favorites but that’s a big step from dynasty. And yea based on how leagues trending, as soon as a team doesn’t like their chances they’ll try to stack the deck. Some big move/trade will be made.

Edit: and I’m not as high as others on Harrell because I don’t think he’s much better than average defensively. Bit too undersized to play c full time but can’t play him at pf in today’s nba. Both impact stats rpm and pipm rate him as neutral impact wise.

[HylianNightmare]

I got to see them win one for even start considering them anything the pieces are there but who knows

[Overdrive]

Harrell is playing the Manu 6th man role, while Kawhi/George are a better version of Duncan/Parker.

Kawhi > Duncan
George = Manu
Harrell > Parker

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:


I guarantee Kawhi/George/Harrell can beat Billups in 2005 and 22 year old LeBron in 2007, those were the prime big 3 wins for Parker/Manu/Duncan. I always felt like Tony Parker was just along for the ride of Duncan/Manu's greatness. So its really like big 2 and a half pretty much.

[NBAGOAT]

I guarantee Kawhi/George/Harrell can beat Billups in 2005 and 22 year old LeBron in 2007, those were the prime big 3 wins for Parker/Manu/Duncan. I always felt like Tony Parker was just along for the ride of Duncan/Manu's greatness. So its really like big 2 and a half pretty much.

i dont completely disagree about parker but you are either underrating prime duncan or overrating kawhi right now. and harrell as good as he is is no many who had top 10 type impact.

[iamgine]

They can but I think it's unlikely.

[Sulico]

I guarantee Kawhi/George/Harrell can beat Billups in 2005 and 22 year old LeBron in 2007, those were the prime big 3 wins for Parker/Manu/Duncan. I always felt like Tony Parker was just along for the ride of Duncan/Manu's greatness. So its really like big 2 and a half pretty much.

Do you think Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton can beat Billups? Cuz I got a feeling those guys are better than Kawhi/George/Harrell

[Bronbron23]

No.

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/4/750x445/954004.jpg

This. Kawhi isnt healthy enough and hes only gonna get older and even less healthy. I give him this year and maybe next and then its greeks turn. Whatever team hes on will be the next dynasty

[Clippersfan86]

I’ll play Devils advocate would say the nets will have add kd to their core and the warriors will have their big 3 back along with Wiggins/paschall and I don’t even think either team is that great.

There’s lakers, bucks, nuggets, raps, Celtics, Jazz, heat, rockets, sizers, mavs etc. all look fairly good though some will disappoint but others will get even better. Yes clips should be favorites but that’s a big step from dynasty. And yea based on how leagues trending, as soon as a team doesn’t like their chances they’ll try to stack the deck. Some big move/trade will be made.

Edit: and I’m not as high as others on Harrell because I don’t think he’s much better than average defensively. Bit too undersized to play c full time but can’t play him at pf in today’s nba. Both impact stats rpm and pipm rate him as neutral impact wise.

RPM has had like 5 revisions lately for the worst. RAPTOR and WS/48 for example put him in the superstar level impact tier. Reality is he falls somewhere in between. He's basically borderline all star caliber.

[RRR3]

I like how we’re all just ignoring OP saying Kawhi is better than Tim Duncan.

[Bronbron23]

I like how we’re all just ignoring OP saying Kawhi is better than Tim Duncan.

he's not because Duncan's resume is much bigger and he was more reliable physically. You could make an argument that a healthy kawhi is as good or better player though.

[Overdrive]

I like how we’re all just ignoring OP saying Kawhi is better than Tim Duncan.

I reacted to that.

[Wally450]

Not with Kawhi leading the team. Now Duncan on the other hand...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If they manage Kawhi properly, anything is possible.

What I mean by that is, he'll probably sit more games and piss off regular-season ticket holders. But that's the sacrifice you make to inhibit the plaguing injury, and lead you to rings.

All of this assumes they keep their 'core' intact. Most players like Doc so I don't see him going anywhere for a while.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Do you think Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton can beat Billups? Cuz I got a feeling those guys are better than Kawhi/George/Harrell

Malone\Payton were washed up, Kobe/Shaq hated each other. The 03/04 Lakers are overrated due to horrible chemistry issues. That's why i think Duncan should of eliminated Lakers in 2004. Duncan lost to 04 Lakers which is the same team that would go on to get embarrassed in the finals.

[Sulico]

Malone\Payton were washed up, Kobe/Shaq hated each other. The 03/04 Lakers are overrated due to horrible chemistry issues. That's why i think Duncan should of eliminated Lakers in 2004. Duncan lost to 04 Lakers which is the same team that would go on to get embarrassed in the finals.

So you determine that one team is better than the other just by name dropping, and then when somebody drops even biigger names on you you suddenly start to analyse stuff like team chemistry.
Yeah, you are not biased at all and your opinion have a lot of value...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So you determine that one team is better than the other just by name dropping, and then when somebody drops even biigger names on you you suddenly start to analyse stuff like team chemistry.
Yeah, you are not biased at all and your opinion have a lot of value...

Context is key, you can't just name drop guys out of their primes. You don't see me bragging about kawhi destroying old Wade in 2014. Malone/Payton in 2004 were more washed up then Wade in 2014. Don't forget old Malone locked Duncan up that series as well.

[RRR3]

he's not because Duncan's resume is much bigger and he was more reliable physically. You could make an argument that a healthy kawhi is as good or better player though.
Tim Duncan won a ring with some of the least help ever in 2003, beating Shaq and Kobe along the way. Let me know when Kawhi does that, because we’ve yet to see him on a team that wouldn’t make the playoffs without him.

[Sulico]

Context is key, you can't just name drop guys out of their primes. You don't see me bragging about kawhi destroying old Wade in 2014. Malone/Payton in 2004 were more washed up then Wade in 2014. Don't forget old Malone locked Duncan up that series as well.

Even if you want to disrespect players like Malone and Payton, don't act like Shaq and Kobe alone weren't enough to trump Kawhi/George and whatever you want to add to that.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Tim Duncan won a ring with some of the least help ever in 2003, beating Shaq and Kobe along the way. Let me know when Kawhi does that, because we’ve yet to see him on a team that wouldn’t make the playoffs without him.

Let me know when Duncan wins a series averaging 35PPG 53% FG and has 7 teammates shoot worse then 45% FG like Kawhi did in 2019 2nd round vs 76ers

Parker/Manu would be a 50+ win team every year without Duncan from 2005-2011.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Even if you want to disrespect players like Malone and Payton, don't act like Shaq and Kobe alone weren't enough to trump Kawhi/George and whatever you want to add to that.

Shaq/Kobe when they start acting dysfunctional in 2003 and 2004 were just no longer a great team. Huge difference from 2001'-02 teams when Kobe was happy. But ok Duncan beat them in 03, I will give you that. Why did he lose the very year in 04 though? That makes it look kind of like a fluke.

[Jasper]

No.

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/4/750x445/954004.jpg

this
Double NO

[RRR3]

Let me know when Duncan wins a series averaging 35PPG 53% FG and has 7 teammates shoot worse then 45% FG like Kawhi did in 2019 2nd round vs 76ers

Parker/Manu would be a 50+ win team every year without Duncan from 2005-2011.
No one cares about your arbitrary stats. Duncan didn’t have anyone near the level of Lowry, Siakam or Marc Gasol in 2003.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No one cares about your arbitrary stats. Duncan didn’t have anyone near the level of Lowry, Siakam or Marc Gasol in 2003.

There was nothing special about Marc Gasol in 2019, he was fat and that's why grizzles traded him. Played some good defense but that's it, he was no better then 03 Robinson.

Lowry/Siakam are way less proven playoff performers then Parker/Manu. Parker with the finals 2007 MVP and Manu with the 2005 playoff leader in VORP. Your entire argument is in 2003 when Duncan beat Mavs without Dirk for half the series. Minus Duncan playing against Mavs without Dirk 50% of the series, 76ers series kawhi has a bigger GmSc gap relative to his next best teammate then Duncan does

[HBK_Kliq_2]

37 year old Robinson played 23 mins a game in playoffs and still averaged more rebounds then 2019 playoffs 34 year old Marc Gasol in 30 mins a game. Hahahhaha SOFT. Luckily Kawhi is turning into ****ing shaq and pulling down 4 offensive rebounds in close out games vs Giannis/Embiid.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not with Kawhi leading the team. Now Duncan on the other hand...

Duncan was 1-3 vs Shaq/Kobe in their primes.
0-1 vs Dirk when healthy lost in 2006
Kobe beat Duncan again 2008 and Duncan only went 4-1 like Dwight did the next year.

You actually think Kawhi would lose to Duncan when he's losing to inferior guys like Dirk and Kobe? In 2008, Kobe embarrassed Duncan and pau didn't do much of anything offensively, 2006 Dirk beat Duncan on his home court even with Jason terry suspension. Plenty of greats have given it to Duncan. He beat Billups and 19 year old LeBron or whatever but 2003 gets overrated because of this. I would still take 2019 kawhi over 2003 Duncan due to scoring/closing/ball handling and more versitale defender guarding a PG in Ben Simmons or even center in Giannis

[Axe]

The thing is, duncan and leonard were teammates for 5 years until 2016, the year in which the former retired in the league.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The thing is, duncan and leonard were teammates for 5 years until 2016, the year in which the former retired in the league.

Yeah and healthy leonard hasn't lost a playoff series when healthy since Duncan retired. Averaging 30PPG on 50/40/90 splits. Lets see this version of kawhi lose a playoff series when healthy and then we can question him.

[Axe]

Yeah and healthy leonard hasn't lost a playoff series when healthy since Duncan retired. Averaging 30PPG on 50/40/90 splits. Lets see this version of kawhi lose a playoff series when healthy and then we can question him.
You're right about that, i suppose. Game 1 of the 2017 wcf pretty much ruined the spurs' chances of giving the revamped warriors a run for their money.

[Sulico]

Shaq/Kobe when they start acting dysfunctional in 2003 and 2004 were just no longer a great team. Huge difference from 2001'-02 teams when Kobe was happy. But ok Duncan beat them in 03, I will give you that. Why did he lose the very year in 04 though? That makes it look kind of like a fluke.

No, that makes it look like Malone and Payton actually made a lot of difference.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No, that makes it look like Malone and Payton actually made a lot of difference.

Karl Malone played in 4/5 finals games and did nothing, pistons won in 5 that wasn't even a series. Gary Payton played in the finals all 5 games and put up 4PPG on 32% FG.

Malone was 40 years old, he had no right shutting down a prime Tim Duncan. When you're struggling with 40 year old Karl Malone, Pau Gasol, Rasheed Wallace. That tells me all time greats in the past like Russell/Wilt would eat him alive.

[Sulico]

Karl Malone played in 4/5 finals games and did nothing, pistons won in 5 that wasn't even a series. Gary Payton played in the finals all 5 games and put up 4PPG on 32% FG.

Malone was 40 years old, he had no right shutting down a prime Tim Duncan. When you're struggling with 40 year old Karl Malone, Pau Gasol, Rasheed Wallace. That tells me all time greats in the past like Russell/Wilt would eat him alive.

Timmy battled with a lot of great players in his career. Sometimes he outperformed them, other times he was outperformed. There is no shame in that.

Ya boy Kawhi met Kevin Durant, who's a great player too, seems like almost every year of his carrer. And Durant outperformed him in a series every single time untill 2019. There is no shame in that either, Durant is very very good and simply better than Kawhi.

But you act like Timmy, who outperformed all of his many rivals at least once in a series, is inferior to Kawhi, who never outperformed Durant until Durant broke down. This is just nonsense.

Kawhi is not the same tier player as Timmy.
Duncan is unanimously top 15 player, usually top10, sometimes top5 and top3 for a stans.
Kawhi can still add to his resume and surprise us, but it looks like he will stop around top30.
He's downhill now, and he still didn't even hit 10K points.

I'm not even hating on Kawhi here, he's third best SF of his generation, he was one of the best role players for Spurs and then showed enough mental toughness and work ethic to become star of his own and probably future HOFer. But putting him in the same conversation as Tim Duncan is ridiculous.

[Roundball_Rock]

The ingredients are there but two big questions:

1) How are Kawhi's knees? Is Kawhi going to have a normal career arc or will his knees cause him to abruptly and prematurely fall off? HBK, what is your take on this? You presumably know more about his health than anyone else on ISH.

2) Does PG stay?

If Kawhi stays healthy and PG stays in LA, they are set up well.

[imdaman99]

They can but they won't. There is too much talent in the West right now with good teams. It is not like when KD tucked his D between his legs and went to Golden State to ruin an entire conference and basically the NBA.

[rawimpact]

Karl Malone played in 4/5 finals games and did nothing, pistons won in 5 that wasn't even a series. Gary Payton played in the finals all 5 games and put up 4PPG on 32% FG.

Malone was 40 years old, he had no right shutting down a prime Tim Duncan. When you're struggling with 40 year old Karl Malone, Pau Gasol, Rasheed Wallace. That tells me all time greats in the past like Russell/Wilt would eat him alive.

IF you put a 50 year old malone up against an actual mail man, milk delivery man, or lebron23 like wilt's fierce competition... he'd have a 50pt games routinely.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Timmy battled with a lot of great players in his career. Sometimes he outperformed them, other times he was outperformed. There is no shame in that.

Ya boy Kawhi met Kevin Durant, who's a great player too, seems like almost every year of his carrer. And Durant outperformed him in a series every single time untill 2019. There is no shame in that either, Durant is very very good and simply better than Kawhi.

But you act like Timmy, who outperformed all of his many rivals at least once in a series, is inferior to Kawhi, who never outperformed Durant until Durant broke down. This is just nonsense.

Kawhi is not the same tier player as Timmy.
Duncan is unanimously top 15 player, usually top10, sometimes top5 and top3 for a stans.
Kawhi can still add to his resume and surprise us, but it looks like he will stop around top30.
He's downhill now, and he still didn't even hit 10K points.

I'm not even hating on Kawhi here, he's third best SF of his generation, he was one of the best role players for Spurs and then showed enough mental toughness and work ethic to become star of his own and probably future HOFer. But putting him in the same conversation as Tim Duncan is ridiculous.

Durant is an all time great though, he's not Rasheed Wallace or Pau Gasol. Kawhi also only met Durant one time in his prime in 2016, he lost to Durant/Westbrook which was like Duncan losing to Shaq\Kobe in early 2000s. His team was outmatched, he didn't get locked down by Durant like how Rasheed/Pau/Malone lock up Duncan.

Besides, Kawhi wasn't the best offensive version of himself until 2017. Kawhi has never lost a playoff series when he's leading them in GmSc? Let that sink in for a second. When you give Kawhi the ball, you win. That's why Kawhi has the highest winning percentage of all time. Aldridge and Duncan just wanted to be shitheads in 2015/16 and not let Kawhi dominate.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The ingredients are there but two big questions:

1) How are Kawhi's knees? Is Kawhi going to have a normal career arc or will his knees cause him to abruptly and prematurely fall off? HBK, what is your take on this? You presumably know more about his health than anyone else on ISH.

2) Does PG stay?

If Kawhi stays healthy and PG stays in LA, they are set up well.

I'm not a doctor but my best guess is his knees just start hurting when he's over working himself. For example, playing back to back games. Another example, when he was carrying the shit out of raptors vs 76ers his knees started acting up. So it is what it is, time will tell really. He did say he's healthy during this bubble.

PG staying I have no clue. If he wins even 1 title, I can't see him leaving his hometown and a team he has a ring with. His contract is also exactly the same as Kawhi on when he can opt out and when it ends.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

IF you put a 50 year old malone up against an actual mail man, milk delivery man, or lebron23 like wilt's fierce competition... he'd have a 50pt games routinely.

35 year old Wilt held Kareem to 48% TS in the 1972 western conference finals. Duncan is having trouble with guys like Rasheed and Pau? Kareem would of murdered those guys. That's why i see wilt locking up Duncan in most likely embarrassing fashion.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm not a doctor but my best guess is his knees just start hurting when he's over working himself. For example, playing back to back games. Another example, when he was carrying the shit out of raptors vs 76ers his knees started acting up. So it is what it is, time will tell really. He did say he's healthy during this bubble.

PG staying I have no clue. If he wins even 1 title, I can't see him leaving his hometown and a team he has a ring with. His contract is also exactly the same as Kawhi on when he can opt out and when it ends.

Good points. Hopefully they stay healthy.

[RRR3]

There was nothing special about Marc Gasol in 2019, he was fat and that's why grizzles traded him. Played some good defense but that's it, he was no better then 03 Robinson.

Lowry/Siakam are way less proven playoff performers then Parker/Manu. Parker with the finals 2007 MVP and Manu with the 2005 playoff leader in VORP. Your entire argument is in 2003 when Duncan beat Mavs without Dirk for half the series. Minus Duncan playing against Mavs without Dirk 50% of the series, 76ers series kawhi has a bigger GmSc gap relative to his next best teammate then Duncan does
Marc Gasol shutting down Embiid is one of the main reasons they got past Philly. He was huge all playoffs. Watch the games.

And why are you using 05 and 07 to argue about how good Manu and Tony were in 03? Neither of them were stars yet in 03, that was my point. Lowry has been a star for quite some time, he took a backseat with Kawhi last year but he is up to around 20 PPG again without him. Siakam became a star level player last year as well. That’s immensely more help than Duncan had in 03. Kawhi legit had 3 all star level teammates plus great role players. Duncan didn’t have a single all star level player in 03. Kawhi would have lost in the first round with that kind of help.

[KD7]

Hell no, Lakers are winning this year

And then Next year you got the Nets and if Giannis goes to the Warriors it would be Nets vs Warriors in the finals for the next couple of years.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Marc Gasol shutting down Embiid is one of the main reasons they got past Philly. He was huge all playoffs. Watch the games.

And why are you using 05 and 07 to argue about how good Manu and Tony were in 03? Neither of them were stars yet in 03, that was my point. Lowry has been a star for quite some time, he took a backseat with Kawhi this year but he is up to around 20 PPG again without him. Siakam became a star level player last year as well. That’s immensely more help than Duncan had in 03. Kawhi legit had 3 all star level teammates plus great role players. Duncan didn’t have a single all star level player in 03. Kawhi would have lost in the first round with that kind of help.

I can say the same thing, David Robinson guarded Shaq. Drob also doesn't rebound like a pansy.

2003 was a rare exception: Running into a familiar Lakers team you seen the last 2 previous years, mavs without Dirk for half the series, and Kidd with Kenyon Martin in the finals lol

You are overrating the hell out of that 03 run to enhance Duncan's legacy. Basically had 1 impressive series and that's it. Meanwhile, kawhi beat Embiid/Butler, Giannis/Middelton, Curry/Dray/Klay. You can't really compare Kawhi's cast to Duncan's cast those years because the paths they had. But like I said, Kawhi's performance in 76ers series was a bigger GmSc carry job then Duncan vs Lakers or Nets when looking at relative to their next best teammate. So really all you're doing is exaggerating Duncan's performance vs the lonely mavs defense without Dirk for half the series.

Manu in 2005 led the playoffs in VORP, I'm still waiting for Kawhi to play with a player at this level during a playoff run. I'm sure Kawhi will not throw up a brickfest in the finals like Duncan did.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Hell no, Lakers are winning this year

And then Next year you got the Nets and if Giannis goes to the Warriors it would be Nets vs Warriors in the finals for the next couple of years.

Lakers had home court advantage taken away from them, when playing clippers it would of been home court for basically 7 games as well.

On top of that, Paul George says his shoulder finally recovered fully during the 4 month hiatus. Kawhi is healthy. I don't see Lakers getting past that unless some type of fluke happens.

[RRR3]

I can say the same thing, David Robinson guarded Shaq. Drob also doesn't rebound like a pansy.

2003 was a rare exception: Running into a familiar Lakers team you seen the last 2 previous years, mavs without Dirk for half the series, and Kidd with Kenyon Martin in the finals lol

You are overrating the hell out of that 03 run to enhance Duncan's legacy. Basically had 1 impressive series and that's it. Meanwhile, kawhi beat Embiid/Butler, Giannis/Middelton, Curry/Dray/Klay. You can't really compare Kawhi's cast to Duncan's cast those years because the paths they had. But like I said, Kawhi's performance in 76ers series was a bigger GmSc carry job then Duncan vs Lakers or Nets when looking at relative to their next best teammate. So really all you're doing is exaggerating Duncan's performance vs the lonely mavs defense without Dirk for half the series.

Manu in 2005 led the playoffs in VORP, I'm still waiting for Kawhi to play with a player at this level during a playoff run. I'm sure Kawhi will not throw up a brickfest in the finals like Duncan did.
All I see here is that you can’t find a single star teammate Duncan had in 03 and he still beat prime Shaq and Kobe. It’s sad that you think Kawhi winning with 3 all star level teammates and excellent role players is equivalent to that.
Muh gamescore doe

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Imagine if PG/Kawhi/Bev do stay together though?

That's a 3-headed monster on defense for more years to come.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

All I see here is that you can’t find a single star teammate Duncan had in 03 and he still beat prime Shaq and Kobe. It’s sad that you think Kawhi winning with 3 all star level teammates and excellent role players is equivalent to that.
Muh gamescore doe

Who was playing like a star vs 76ers? When Kawhi had to beat 3 allstars and a 21 PPG scorer in Embiid/Butler/Simmons/Harris?

Lakers had the Kobe rape case, Kobe's jealousy of Shaq, they were a complete mess that year. Go read Phil Jackson's "last season" book.

Curry/Dray/Klay/Iggy = Shaq/Kobe

2003 nets are no where near as good as 2019 bucks

2003 mavs with Dirk missing the half the series are no where near as good as 2019 76ers

Again, you are looking at 1 series without looking at the playoff run as a whole.

[KD7]

Lakers had home court advantage taken away from them, when playing clippers it would of been home court for basically 7 games as well.

On top of that, Paul George says his shoulder finally recovered fully during the 4 month hiatus. Kawhi is healthy. I don't see Lakers getting past that unless some type of fluke happens.
LeBron & AD are fully rested as well

Clippers have zero chance

LeBron > Kawhi
AD > PG

[HBK_Kliq_2]

LeBron & AD are fully rested as well

Clippers have zero chance

LeBron > Kawhi
AD > PG

Kawhi > LeBron
George = Davis
Harrell > Kuzma

[Axe]

LeBron & AD are fully rested as well

Clippers have zero chance

LeBron > Kawhi
AD > PG
Drop the act, kid. We know your main dup is banned. :lol

[Clippersfan86]

BTW... Harrell is our 3rd guy in terms of numbers, but in terms of impact, the Clippers are almost unbeatable when Kawhi/PG/Pat are in the lineup. Pat is the 3rd most important guy. I just wish the damn guy was a better creator for others. Pat always seems to come up with back breaking offensive rebounds in the clutch, despite being a 6'0" tall guard. He's also a consistent 39% shooter from 3 the last few years on solid volume. He's the #1 defensive PG in the NBA according to a couple metrics such as DRPM.

[KD7]

Kawhi > LeBron
George = Davis
Harrell > Kuzma

:roll:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

BTW... Harrell is our 3rd guy in terms of numbers, but in terms of impact, the Clippers are almost unbeatable when Kawhi/PG/Pat are in the lineup. Pat is the 3rd most important guy. I just wish the damn guy was a better creator for others. Pat always seems to come up with back breaking offensive rebounds in the clutch, despite being a 6'0" tall guard. He's also a consistent 39% shooter from 3 the last few years on solid volume. He's the #1 defensive PG in the NBA according to a couple metrics such as DRPM.

But Harrell is in most of their best net rating lineups from what I've seen. Is Beverly as well?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

:roll:

The three games clippers faced Lakers this season:

Kawhi is averaging 31PPG on 72% TS

LeBron is averaging 27PPG on 49% TS

Only a 23% efficiency gap not bad hahahha

[Clippersfan86]

But Harrell is in most of their best net rating lineups from what I've seen. Is Beverly as well?

Not sure. I believe so. I do know the Kawhi/Beverley duo is insanely good with a 15+ net rating in a good amount of minutes. Something like 117 ORTG, 102 DRTG. Hard to tell how much of that comes from Beverley with as dominant as Kawhi is. I do think Beverley+Zubac are the two guys that have the best chemistry with Kawhi on court. Like Kawhi+Harrell have kind of a funky chemistry on court (Oddly PG+Harrell seem to pair well). Maybe double check this, but I believe Beverley is more valuable in lineups than Harrell. I'm gonna double check now

[Clippersfan86]

Yea, Kawhi+Beverley are the best 2 man lineup over 300 minutes total at least. They are +15.4 in 914 minutes. The 3rd most used duo. If you extend it out to 3 man lineups, interestingly enough both Harrell+Beverley top PG to be the most important players with Kawhi.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yea, Kawhi+Beverley are the best 2 man lineup over 300 minutes total at least. They are +15.4 in 914 minutes. The 3rd most used duo. If you extend it out to 3 man lineups, interestingly enough both Harrell+Beverley top PG to be the most important players with Kawhi.

Yeah and Kawhi/Harrell just need a few years together and they can potentially have that Duncan/Manu synergy. Only problem is Harrell can't shoot jump shots and Zubac can't shoot jump shots, so they never play together. That's when guys like Morris come in with shooting but gets crapped on defensively. So we will see how that all plays out with Harrell's contract, if he was smart and wants to win he would take a discount for clippers.

[999Guy]

Don’t leave the forum when this gets bumped

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Don’t leave the forum when this gets bumped

By this time next year, expect Kawhi to have 4 finals MVPS at 30 years old just like Duncan after 2007. Except Kawhi isn't going to cry about his wife divorcing him and turn into a miserable piece of shit like 08-11 Duncan did hahahah

Kawhi in his 30's will continue the dynasty, especially if Harrell or George are taking paycuts after they see the rings.

[Axe]

By this time next year, expect Kawhi to have 4 finals MVPS at 30 years old just like Duncan after 2007. Except Kawhi isn't going to cry about his wife divorcing him and turn into a miserable piece of shit like 08-11 Duncan did hahahah

Kawhi in his 30's will continue the dynasty, especially if Harrell or George are taking paycuts after they see the rings.
Having that said, what can doc do to make this possible?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Having that said, what can doc do to make this possible?

Doc has won a title before, I'm sure he will get the job done as a coach. Top 3 offense, top 5 defense and he has had a lot of guys in and out of the lineup. I guess the only thing I would advise is during playoff if Lou/Morris don't have their shots going then pull them quickly.

[Axe]

Doc has won a title before, I'm sure he will get the job done as a coach. Top 3 offense, top 5 defense and he has had a lot of guys in and out of the lineup. I guess the only thing I would advise is during playoff if Lou/Morris don't have their shots going then pull them quickly.
His lone chip in 2008, he had an assistant coach who's a defensive specialist. That guy was thibs. He mostly pioneered kg to become the dpoy 12 years ago and thus, also led the celtics out of the east despite their woes outside td garden during the first two rounds of the postseason. The closing game of the finals was very epic back then, ending with a 39-point victory against the lakers. Now I'm not sure about the clips but this reminds me. They have lue in their coaching staff right now and I doubt if he's any help to doc at all.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

His lone chip in 2008, he had an assistant coach who's a defensive specialist. That guy was thibs. He mostly pioneered kg to become the dpoy 12 years ago and thus, also led the celtics out of the east despite their woes outside td garden during the first two rounds of the postseason. The closing game of the finals was very epic back then, ending with a 39-point victory against the lakers. Now I'm not sure about the clips but this reminds me. They have lue in their coaching staff right now and I doubt if he's any help to doc at all.

But thibs did terrible with Twolves and was running a damn circus with the Jimmy Butler antics. Doc has basically been a winner for 90% of his 20 year coaching career.

[kawhileonard2]

While having the best player in the league in Kawhi yes.

[Clippersfan86]

Yeah and Kawhi/Harrell just need a few years together and they can potentially have that Duncan/Manu synergy. Only problem is Harrell can't shoot jump shots and Zubac can't shoot jump shots, so they never play together. That's when guys like Morris come in with shooting but gets crapped on defensively. So we will see how that all plays out with Harrell's contract, if he was smart and wants to win he would take a discount for clippers.

I think Harrell is the heart and soul of our team emotionally. Kawhi sets the tone with his quiet leadership, but Harrell+Bev+Lou are the vocal leaders and emotion guys. I don't see any of those 3 leaving this team unless traded. Beverley and Lou have already said they are willing to take paycuts to make sure they retire here. Harrell may be looking for a payday but his heart is here and the COVID situation+reduced salary cap likely messed up his next contract. Unless he goes super nova in the playoffs and someone throws a max at him I guess.

Zubac actually shows nice touch from mid, but he rarely shoots it. Zubac needs more minutes and touches TBH. Not a lot, but maybe 5 more minutes and 3 more shots.

[Axe]

But thibs did terrible with Twolves and was running a damn circus with the Jimmy Butler antics. Doc has basically been a winner for 90% of his 20 year coaching career.
Wth are you trying to say here? In the last decade, thibs was the only head coach who led those wolves team to the playoffs in 2018, breaking their 14-year postseason drought iirc. And earlier in 2010, when he was with the bulls, he led rose to his first mvp year and to 62 wins in 2011, the most for a rookie coach until kerr led the warriors to 67 wins five years ago.

So ofc he's not perfect but there's no doubt that thibs is a more successful coach than a scrub like lue, who's only a beneficiary on bran's continuous finals streaks with the cavs and their lone championship in 2016 but he's terrible at coaching them defense, which is why the cavaliers went 1-8 in their last two finals against the warriors that just acquired kd after ultimately blowing their 3-1 finals during their 73-win season.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wth are you trying to say here? In the last decade, thibs was the only head coach who led those wolves team to the playoffs in 2018, breaking their 14-year postseason drought iirc. And earlier in 2010, when he was with the bulls, he led rose to his first mvp year and to 62 wins in 2011, the most for a rookie coach until kerr led the warriors to 67 wins five years ago.

So ofc he's not perfect but there's no doubt that thibs is a more successful coach than a scrub like lue, who's only a beneficiary on bran's continuous finals streaks with the cavs and their lone championship in 2016 but he's terrible at coaching them defense, which is why the cavaliers went 1-8 in their last two finals against the warriors that just acquired kd after ultimately blowing their 3-1 finals during their 73-win season.

Doc Rivers has a 20 career of like 2 seasons under .500 and doesn't have to rely on Thibs to win a title, that's what I'm trying to say here. Thibs was ran out of Wolves franchise in embarrassing fashion and let Butler take over practices.

[Axe]

Doc Rivers has a 20 career of like 2 seasons under .500 and doesn't have to rely on Thibs to win a title, that's what I'm trying to say here. Thibs was ran out of Wolves franchise in embarrassing fashion and let Butler take over practices.
Lmao no no. You're somehow thinking that I'm saying that thibs was a better coach than doc himself just because i mentioned him earlier when he was on the 2008 Celtics coaching staff. I don't.

What I'm saying is, does doc have an assistant coach as good as thibs in his coaching staff at the clippers right now? It might help somehow but i don't think lue is one of them.