Allen Iverson vs Reggie Miller [Archive] - Page 2 - Message Board Basketball Forum

RRR3

07-21-2020, 04:15 PM

Think about that bros... If not for the GOAT Bulls in the way, imagine Reggie winning a ring or two and undoubtedly FMVP since they 99% of the time hand it to the highest scorer on the winning team. Utah's defense was middle rank... 17th last i checked. Which for a playoff team is awful. In contrast to the Bulls defense (and rebounding) which was GOAT. Just a couple turns of the tide, shot here shot there... Reggie could've had his 2011 Dirk Nowitzki moment. All Dirk did was score, and that run made his legacy.

Nobody would ever dare compare Iverson to Dirk after 2011 but before it was fair game.

Right?

:confusedshrug:
Dirk at least wasn’t useless on the boards and you’d have a hard time arguing Reggie was as impactful as Dirk was.

Phoenix

07-21-2020, 04:19 PM

Dirk at least wasn’t useless on the boards and you’d have a hard time arguing Reggie was as impactful as Dirk was.

Leave it to Tpols. He'll find a way. Reggie has scaled up from the Ray Allen/Klay Thompson tier to the Iverson bracket. At current pace I figure we'll have 20 pages on Reggie vs West by months end.

tpols

07-21-2020, 04:35 PM

Dirk at least wasn’t useless on the boards and you’d have a hard time arguing Reggie was as impactful as Dirk was.

Dirk was the only great big man on his teams. Shaq used to call Dampier Erica. And for right reason. If you play 40 minutes as the only serviceable big man on your team you will get boards. Whether you want to or not. Reggie was a shooting guard. He chased opposing guards all alongside the outer banks and left rebounding to 7'4 Smits and the Davis goons. Like he should have. I've always maintained Dirk's defense was underrated just like reggie's, but boards aren't something to totally hype as some crazy turning point in the case of a guard. That might be the oddest criticism we've seen yet. Angles are being run out of lmao....

Roundball_Rock

07-21-2020, 05:06 PM

Steve Smith too as far as big guards go at 6'8. Think he was the tallest in the space of time we're talking. He wasn't a particularly good rebounder either given his height.

Good one--yeah and he played some SF too so that makes it even more weird.

If not for the GOAT Bulls in the way

That's an excuse. The Bulls were beatable (BTW MJ fans: I'm saying their comp was good here :oldlol: ) throughout the series and in Game 7. MJ was 9 for 25 in Game 7. Pippen 6 for 18. Rodman a no show. All Miller had to do was grab 1 or 2 boards and they win or take more than 1 shot in the fourth.

. Reggie could've had his 2011 Dirk Nowitzki moment. All Dirk did was score, and that run made his legacy.

28/8/3 isn't the same as 23/3/3 but you are correct: Reggie had the same opportunity Dirk had. Dirk rose to the occasion and outplayed LeBron, Wade, Durant, Westbrook, Kobe in consecutive series; Miller was outplayed by Kukoc. If you want to be a champ, you have to be able to outplay the other team's 4th best player in a big series.

How does one instance of Reggie losing to the Bulls cover an 18 year career? 17 other seasons somebody else ended his season. 4 other years he got to the conference finals outside of 98 and the Bulls were nowhere in the picture. Reggie had his chances

That's why I think Reggie and co. are lucky to have "Jordan" as an excuse. Because of that excuse no one asks the hard questions. Jordan doesn't explain 17 other years, including 4 ECF's and a finals with MJ not around. The very next year MJ was retired, Miller gets outplayed by Allan Houston and the next year he loses in the finals (can't blame him for 00' IMO--sacrificial lamb but if you get the credit for making the finals you have to get some of the criticism for losing). Jordan doesn't explain Malone/Stockton contending from 1988-2000 and losing in the WC every year but two. Jordan doesn't explain Ewing choking in the 94' finals. Jordan isn't why Ewing missed the finger roll the next year.

Even in a lot of Bulls series, Jordan had nothing to do with Malone, Stockton struggling.

If it weren't for the MJ excuse they would be held accountable. No one says "Duncan" as an excuse for the Nash-era Suns or "Curry/GS" as an excuse for Harden or "Magic" as an excuse for the 80's Spurs. People don't even remember those 80's Bucks teams that were perennial contenders but we hear about the 90's Pacers and 90's Knicks all the time.

If you want to be a champ, you have to beat the best players and the best teams. That's just the way it works. No free lunches.

Phoenix

07-21-2020, 05:33 PM

Tpols downplaying guard rebounding, I'm imagining the conversation during game 7 98:

Reggie: Goons, can I count on you for all the boards so I can handle the scoring and Ortg?

Goons: sure Reg. We're gonna need you to score big tonight. One game from the finals

4th quarter goon production:

Smits/Davis Boys: 14 points, 7 rebounds

Reggie: 0/1

https://media0.giphy.com/media/tLql6mMHC6wvK/giphy.gif

Roundball_Rock

07-21-2020, 05:56 PM

tpols

07-21-2020, 06:11 PM

That's pretty much what the dynamic was. Goons rebound... Reggie puts the ball in the hole at a historic rate. There's never been somebody who was picked for pure rebounding early. It's the most low cost role to fill. Legendary scoring and clutch shot making is indispensable... the creme of the crop when it comes to talent scarcity.

Phoenix

07-21-2020, 06:15 PM

But...... 0/1 as the teams best scorer isnt getting it done while expecting the goons to carry the rebounding.....plus score the points he should have been contributing in the clutch. I mean wasn't that the deal?

And before we hear ' he lost to the GOAT' for the 10th time, MJ was 2/7 and the Bulls 6/18 in the 4th. Hardly 'GOAT' play on either account. One team did what they had to do to win, regardless of 'roles'. The other team was Indiana, but you can't put it on the goons. When it counted they did their jobs.....and Reggies.

tpols

07-21-2020, 06:22 PM

Kukoc and Kerr scored at 5-10 ppg volume in the 2nd 3peat. This is why people dont really take you fellas seriously.

I want you to look into this image and grasp it's philosophical presence.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81JYc79MqTL._AC_SX425_.jpg

Phoenix

07-21-2020, 06:33 PM

But we're supposed to take someone seriously who talks like they just discovered the term ORtg, tries to shoehorn it into every discussion they possibly can and downplays whatever doesn't fit the narrative. Guard rebounding is suddenly irrelevant because Reggie Miller sucks at it. A Tpols exclusive.

Grasp the philosophical concept of this:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1412/1710/products/101742800b_ad93a699-dbc2-4920-a2a4-62d7c0b9ad78_500x500.jpg?v=1476448812

You're full of it.

tpols

07-21-2020, 06:41 PM

Well...yea. You have look at volume when you look at efficiency. A 24 ppg prime player can't be compared to a 5 ppg player. That's... not being retarded.

Roundball_Rock

07-21-2020, 06:46 PM

Reggie puts the ball in the hole at a historic rate

:coleman:

On paper. On the court he was outplayed by Jordan, Pippen, and even Kukoc in the series and Game 7.

But...... 0/1 as the teams best scorer isnt getting it done while expecting the goons to carry the rebounding.....plus score the points he should have been contributing in the clutch. I mean wasn't that the deal?

4th quarter

Smits 9/2/0 on 2 for 5 FGA and 5 for 6 FTA
D. Davis 0/1/0 on 0 for 1 FGA (1 offensive board)
Jackson 0/0/0
A. Davis 5/4/0 on 2 for 2 FGA (1 offensive board)
Miller 0/0/1 on 0 for 1 FGA

Jordan 9/2/1 on 2 or 7 FGA, 5 for 7 FTA (1 offensive board)
Pippen 4/2/2 on 2 for 3 FGA, 0 for 1 FTA (2 offensive boards)
Longley 2/4/1 on 1 for 4 FGA

When the team needed Miller, Luc Longley was a bigger factor in the game. :lol

Kukoc and Kerr scored at 5-10 ppg volume in the 2nd 3peat. This is why people dont really take you fellas seriously.

Kukoc dominated the third quarter of Game 7 (14 points).

For the series:

Kukoc was 15/4/3 on 20.3% usage with a 12.6 GS
Miller 17/2/2 on 21.1% usage with a 11.6 GS

Stop the excuses. Kukoc had similar volume and outplayed Miller. Your boy got outplayed by the other team's fourth best player in the biggest series of his career. :lol

Phoenix

07-21-2020, 06:47 PM

A 24 ppg prime player but is 0/1 4th quarter in the most important game of his life to date and contributes literally nothing else in that moment to compensate for failing to provide the thing he's good at. You're spending 18 pages defending it. And I'm spending the same amount of time humoring it. I'm the fool.

I'm done with you on this topic. Anyone who boils every discussion down to spreadsheet numbers isn't really someone I need to invest this amount of energy talking ball with.

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 06:53 PM

Like I said if Miller can post up bigger players at his peak why not someone who is 5'11" 160?

The problem here is you are using a version of Miller that was past his prime. He was 32 in 98, 34 in their Finals berth and 35 the last time he faced Iverson in a series. How about we use a version of Miller where he was still in his athletic prime for this one on one matchup?

Roundball_Rock

07-21-2020, 07:14 PM

More or less equal teams ("apples to apples" as you like to say). All Reggie had to do was outplay Toni Kukoc and he would be a champion--he couldn't handle it.

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 07:20 PM

Seven game series against the Bulls and they are down 0-2 and your best player suffers a significant ankle injury in the second half of game three. What would you guys think should have happened going forward?

Miller dominates the 4th quarter of game three with his clutch shooting despite the obvious limp off the sprained ankle. He struggles in game 4 because of the injury but hits the Gamewinner in Jordans face to tie the series.

They get blown out in game 5 and his teammates tie the series in game 6. He has a good game 7 on both ends, defending Jordan better than most defensive superstars. He puts his trust in his teammates too much by setting up Smits for the 4th quarter for the mismatch on Kukoc/Longley (Smits was at 11/12 fg in game 6). Miller overthinks the game and does not shoot till a desperation heave that Antonio put back in(injured ankle and Jordans defense could be a factor plus the Smits kukoc mismatch) They keep the Bulls at bay playing this way till that Kerr three. They are still within striking distance but the athletic advantage of Jordan and Pippen shows with them getting the looseballs despite the Pacers matching them effort wise. Pacers eventually lose a tight game.

In that 7 game series, do we judge Miller solely on that 4th quarter of game 7? Or do we factor in his work in games 3 and 4 where he outclutched Jordan and the Bulls?

This is not even the closest they got to winning it all because they actually made the Finals in 2000 so why the need to cherry pick on one quarter for a player still not 100% because of an injury mid series?

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 07:26 PM

Kukoc was a big reason they won game 7 but is also one of the main reasons the Pacers got there in the first place. Smits, Dale and Antonio Davis had their way inside because of Kukoc's lack of defense and was the one advantage the Pacers had in the series.

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 07:35 PM

They were all still averaging around their regular totals but Antonio was at 54 fg%, Smits at 55% while Dale was at a whopping 69% field goal percentage which is one of the main reasons this got stretched to the brink.

Roundball_Rock

07-21-2020, 07:36 PM

The next year it was Allan Houston. Your other guy Ewing was out so a finals trip was there for the taking by Reggie.

Game 6 4th Qtr.

Miller 0/0/0 on 0 for 3 FGA
Smits 7/2/1 on 3 for 6 FGA and 1 for 1 FTA
Rose 10/0/1 on 4 for 9 FGA and 1 for 1 FTA

Houston 9/0/1 on 4 for 4 FGA and 1 for 2 FTA
Sprewell 10/1/1 on 3 for 3 FGA and 4 for 4 FTA
Childs 7/3/1 on 2 for 4 FGA and 2 for 2 FTA
Camby 5/4/1 on 1 for 2 FGA and 3 for 4 FTA

0/0/0 when Smits and Rose are balling and Houston and Sprewell on the other side? "Jordan" doesn't work as an excuse here...Chris Childs outplaying "alpha alpha clutch" Reggie?

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 07:38 PM

The next year it was Allan Houston. Your other guy Ewing was out so a finals trip was there for the taking by Reggie.

Game 6 4th Qtr.

Miller 0/0/0 on 0 for 3 FGA
Smits 7/2/1 on 3 for 6 FGA and 1 for 1 FTA
Rose 10/0/1 on 4 for 9 FGA and 1 for 1 FTA

Houston 9/0/1 on 4 for 4 FGA and 1 for 2 FTA
Sprewell 10/1/1 on 3 for 3 FGA and 4 for 4 FTA
Childs 7/3/1 on 2 for 4 FGA and 2 for 2 FTA
Camby 5/4/1 on 1 for 2 FGA and 3 for 4 FTA

0/0/0 when Smits and Rose are balling and Houston and Sprewell on the other side? "Jordan" doesn't work as an excuse here...

And the next year he beat Allan Houston enroute to the Finals, thanks for taking the time with your walls of bullshit

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 07:41 PM

I am actively trying to avoid this dude out of respect to those who mediated between us but what does he do? Post in a Miller thread with his cherry picked narratives :facepalm

tpols

07-21-2020, 07:50 PM

rockhead and pheonix have to be the same poster. there's no way you can jam as much stupidity, persistence, and timing into two individuals.

warriorfan

07-21-2020, 07:50 PM

I am actively trying to avoid this dude out of respect to those who mediated between us but what does he do? Post in a Miller thread with his cherry picked narratives :facepalm

He is a real piece of shit. Put him on ignore and call it a day imo.

Roundball_Rock

07-21-2020, 08:01 PM

They kept giving the ball to Smits in the 4th with the season on the line two years in a row, not your GOAT scorer. :lol That's damning. To be fair, Reggie couldn't get open, but that's part of the point...

We watched Reggie play and fall short when it counted most; you read spreadsheets of a stat perfectly suited to Reggie. Ray Allen has almost identical stats--and no one hypes Allen for the same

For MJ D riders, you implicitly are arguing the Pacers weren't real comp so of course they lost. That is an odd way to be "pro-MJ." You want to hype the opposing stars but not the team as real comp? :oldlol:

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 08:13 PM

Again with the "Anyone who opposes me is a Jordan stan" narrative :facepalm

insidious301

07-21-2020, 09:53 PM

Again with the "Anyone who opposes me is a Jordan stan" narrative :facepalm

You aren't a Jordan fan and this is something you already proved in another thread. Why the smear campaign?

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 10:45 PM

You aren't a Jordan fan and this is something you already proved in another thread. Why the smear campaign?

He does this to everyone he has disagreements with. There is a long list of people he dubbed as jordan stans just by not following his views on Pippen or giving compliments to Jordans comp because it somehow props up Jordan.

Imagine being called a fake Miller and Pacers fan because of this paranoia when the only reason I reply or make threads about other players and topics is because no one in here wants to talk about the Pacers with me except in Miller threads where half the posters want to pull him down.

I am apparently a Jordan stan because I try to say that the 98 Pacers were a great team with good players and great chemistry for the simple reason that it implies that Jordan had very good competition in his last run to the title. He hates all of that as evidenced by the multiple agenda driven Stockton Malone threads where he tries to bring them down to prove that Jordan had no competition to begin with.

insidious301

07-21-2020, 11:00 PM

It's not cool Reggie43. I have said this as you know but it doesnt seem to register. You are a big pacers fan so which year do you think Reggie Miller was second fiddle? He had big playoff games stretching through 2002 which means great longevity.

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 11:03 PM

insidious301

07-21-2020, 11:07 PM

Did you mean that i had a smear campaign against him?

I meant Roundball man. You don't accuse people of bogus claims.

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 11:09 PM

I meant Roundball man. You don't accuse people of bogus claims.

which ones? Everything is quoted which means he actually said it. Just because he retracted some of them doesnt mean he didnt say it in the first place

insidious301

07-21-2020, 11:15 PM

which ones?

Accuses everyone of being a Jordan fan. He even called me one. Also noticed he will intentionally misconstrue the stats to preach Pippen gospel. Earlier he was asking what Jordan did without Pippen. This is an obvious troll question

Reggie43

07-21-2020, 11:21 PM

Accuses everyone of being a Jordan fan. He even called me one. Also noticed he will intentionally misconstrue the stats to preach Pippen gospel. Earlier he was asking what Jordan without Pippen. This is an obvious troll question

Sorry im being slow today but yeah he does that in all his arguments.

As for your question about Miller being 2nd fiddle I think it was in the 2000 season that he seemingly passed the torch to Jalen Rose but when playoff time comes it still looked like that Miller was the better player. This was the trend till he was 37 years old when he clearly slowed down.

insidious301

07-22-2020, 12:27 AM

As for your question about Miller being 2nd fiddle I think it was in the 2000 season that he seemingly passed the torch to Jalen Rose but when playoff time comes it still looked like that Miller was the better player. This was the trend till he was 37 years old when he clearly slowed down.

I also remember that paradox. Couldn't tell you who the best player was in the r/s. I would tell you Jalen some days and others Jermaine Oneal. Miller Time was reserved for big playoff games and series. You couldn't count him out and thats what makes the question an interesting one.

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 01:05 AM

rockhead and pheonix have to be the same poster. there's no way you can jam as much stupidity, persistence, and timing into two individuals.

As opposed to being uniquely stupid like you? Are you and Reggie43 the same guy? Because I can start that bullshit too.

Reggie43

07-22-2020, 01:24 AM

As opposed to being uniquely stupid like you? Are you and Reggie43 the same guy? Because I can start that bullshit too.

Have some respect bro. Keep me out of your drama with other posters.

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 01:27 AM

Have some respect bro. Keep me out of your drama with other posters.

I'm not disrespecting you and I don't think you're the same poster. But if we gonna take the conversation to flippantly accusing others of being alts you and Tpols tagteaming in this thread is no different than me and Roundball sharing similar views. Maybe talk to the drooling Ortg retard about not tossing out dumb ass accusations and we can keep it relatively clean.

Reggie43

07-22-2020, 01:30 AM

I'm not disrespecting you and I don't think you're the same poster. But if we gonna take the conversation to flippantly accusing others of being alts you and Tpols tagteaming in this thread is no different than me and Roundball sharing similar views. Maybe talk to the drooling Ortg retard about not tossing out dumb ass accusations and we can keep it relatively clean.

who did i accuse as alts? Dont even know what Ortg means because I hate advanced stats. Lets not stereotype all fans of one player as having the same views.

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 01:35 AM

who did i accuse as alts? Dont even know what Ortg means because I hate advanced stats. Lets not stereotype all fans of one player as having the same views.

Not 'you' accusing. Tpols saying that Roundball and I must be the same poster on the prior page basically because some of our talking points on Reggie mesh. I dont think Tpols knows what it means either, considering he raised it in a conversation about a one on one battle. In any case, you aren't being disrespected. Asking if you and Tpols are the same was merely intended as the same baseless nonsense he threw out.

Reggie43

07-22-2020, 01:49 AM

Not 'you' accusing. Tpols saying that Roundball and I must be the same poster on the prior page basically because some of our talking points on Reggie mesh. I dont think Tpols knows what it means either, considering he raised it in a conversation about a one on one battle. In any case, you aren't being disrespected. Asking if you and Tpols are the same was merely intended as the same baseless nonsense he threw out.

Just a question are you not aware of roundballs clear agenda or do you think his posts, replies and the threads he makes are all honest and fair?

I am admittedly a Pacers, Miller and 90s fan so thats where my bias begins. What do you think of Roundball's obvious bias?

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 01:59 AM

I also remember that paradox. Couldn't tell you who the best player was in the r/s. I would tell you Jalen some days and others Jermaine Oneal. Miller Time was reserved for big playoff games and series. You couldn't count him out and thats what makes the question an interesting one.

Jermaine wasn't on the 2000 team. During the regular season Jalen was the leading scorer( by like a fraction) but without looking it up I'm sure Reggie was the leading playoff/finals scorer. Jermaine Oneal joined in 01 and took over the leading scorer role in 02, followed by Jalen then Reggie. Artest came onboard that year as well. As he pushed 40 Reggie naturally scaled back to more of an elder statesman role.

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 02:20 AM

Just a question are you not aware of roundballs clear agenda or do you think his posts, replies and the threads he makes are all honest and fair?

I am admittedly a Pacers, Miller and 90s fan so thats where my bias begins. What do you think of Roundball's obvious bias?

He's said similar things about Reggie that I have here so would that make me biased as well? As I said some time ago I actually like Reggie and was pulling for him in those 90s battles against the Knicks. I find that this board puts you in position to appear biased or hating on someone because you face off with extreme fanbases.

I dont 'think' anything about Roundballs posts. He's a Pippen fan and there is a point that Scottie has often been disrespected here in order to prop up MJ. Alot of us here grew up on 90s ball and some of the topics are revisiting the era now with an older set of eyes. Whatever you think of the 'bias' of the topics it's an opportunity to reconcextualize the era with other people who came along at that time. I mean you cant do that with the 20 year old kiddes who think the NBA started in 2000. So it doesnt bother me. Everyone here on this board has problems with everyone else. I'm getting too old for the bullshit. At this point the Lebron trolls spamming Hornacek memes( anti MJ behavior) elicit a half chuckle. It's just....not that serious to me anymore.

Reggie43

07-22-2020, 02:27 AM

There was this one time that Roundball castigated me for liking/praising Karl Malone and John Stockton in his thread and I was apparently a Jordan stan for propping them up but one of the reasons I became a Jazz fan was because of their Finals battles with the Bulls and I was rooting hard for them to win against Jordan. How does that even make me remotely close to being a Jordan stan when I wanted him to lose?

Just one of the many examples of how he operates which im pretty sure is already well known on Ish.

Reggie43

07-22-2020, 02:31 AM

He's said similar things about Reggie that I have here so would that make me biased as well? As I said some time ago I actually like Reggie and was pulling for him in those 90s battles against the Knicks. I find that this board puts you in position to appear biased or hating on someone because you face off with extreme fanbases.

I dont 'think' anything about Roundballs posts. He's a Pippen fan and there is a point that Scottie has often been disrespected here in order to prop up MJ. Alot of us here grew up on 90s ball and some of the topics are revisiting the era now with an older set of eyes. Whatever you think of the 'bias' of the topics it's an opportunity to reconcextualize the era with other people who came along at that time. I mean you cant do that with the 20 year old kiddes who think the NBA started in 2000. So it doesnt bother me. Everyone here on this board has problems with everyone else. I'm getting too old for the bullshit. At this point the Lebron trolls spamming Hornacek memes( anti MJ behavior) elicit a half chuckle. It's just....not that serious to me anymore.

You think he is an honest poster with a little bias or is he hugely biased and agenda driven with a few decent non troll posts?

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 02:34 AM

I don't know man, I think everyone needs to step away from the forum and breathe a bit. The energy being spent on all of this really isnt worth it.

Reggie43

07-22-2020, 02:44 AM

I don't know man, I think everyone needs to step away from the forum and breathe a bit. The energy being spent on all of this really isnt worth it.

100% agreed but unfortunately the pandemic limits our options on what to waste our time on lol. Anyways thanks for the time man.

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 02:45 AM

You think he is an honest poster with a little bias or is he hugely biased and agenda driven with a few decent non troll posts?

I dont think either. Most of the posters here I dont 'think' anything about on that level. I can identify tendencies and bias for or against but do I care for the most part? Not really. He's a Pippen fan who, as best I can tell, has been around a long time to see how much Scottie has been shit on over the years, and he presents a counter force to it. Actually he hasn't been around for years until recently, and I've been a consistent poster and for the most part I think people identify me as being a MJ guy. So on that point alone Tpols equating me and him as the same poster is the height of retardation.

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 02:58 AM

Like for example, Warriorfan gets grief on here and Roundball on a different thread asked me if I equated him with Axe who I was talking about. My reply was I didn't. So different posters on this board have issues with other posters but I treat everyone in a vacuum based on my own interactions. People have different views on me. Insidious the other day said I was a good poster. I 'think' I generally get along with most posters. I believe Roundball respects me. You and I have been a little rocky but I think there's some respect and common ground there. At one point I thought I generally got along with Tpols. Now I'm stupid because I dont see eye to eye on Reggie. I'm Axes asshole son. I can't keep up and honestly see no reason to try. It's all gravy.

Roundball_Rock

07-22-2020, 09:51 AM

I dont think either. Most of the posters here I dont 'think' anything about on that level. I can identify tendencies and bias for or against but do I care for the most part?

The amusing part is the individual you quoted identified the alleged agenda as (paraphrasing) "diminishing MJ's competition." Who again is diminishing MJ's competition here? The people saying the Pacers were tomato cans with no shot or the people saying the chip was right there for the taking? A sane person would say the former is the "anti-MJ" position, under his theory. As you surely know as an intelligent poster, the argument against MJ's "comp" isn't individual HOF players--it is based on the caliber of teams as a whole. If you hype one player and say his team sucked, you are echoing the "anti-MJ" position (even if one can't grasp it). :oldlol:

His basis for that is me being critical of Malone, Stockton, Miller. When I noted that I also have posted favorably towards Drexler, Barkley (I believe you were in a thread where I was praising Barkley just yesterday), Price, T. Hardaway, Mourning, Shaq and been mixed on Ewing while being silent on Payton--all "rivals" of MJ." Then you have Hakeem, Richmond, and Robinson--players with no relevance to MJ. I'm critical of Robinson, mixed on Hakeem, count as favorable to Richmond (unlike others in this thread). So three different stances on three players, all having 0 to do with MJ.

What exactly is the "agenda" or pattern of the above paragraph? If you accept his theory, that it is anti-MJ to criticize MJ's opponents (only MJ's teammate is allowed to be criticized among 90's stars), then, using his own logic, the pattern in the previous paragraph is "pro-MJ" :oldlol: . You can't make this kind of stuff up.

The irony is the people who claim to not have the agenda are the ones who rush from thread to thread to defend every single 90's star--except the one who was MJ's teammate (a pure coincidence they swear!). Agendas=equal consistent patterns, like defending every 90's star as flawless greats, except MJ's teammate, who sucked, like many of the people in this thread...

:lol at the troll talking point from Team Jordan. 10,000 posts--probably half of them reported to mods--zero bans, unlike many others here. This isn't North Korea. You can't criminalize a difference of opinion and shut down any criticism of the Jordan mythology that is pushed. Jordan is a retired player, not a god above scrutiny.

He's a Pippen fan who, as best I can tell, has been around a long time to see how much Scottie has been shit on over the years, and he presents a counter force to it.

Yup, and I was pro-MJ when I joined. So from the 90's through 2009 I was pro-MJ. Not exactly someone who seethed at MJ each game in the 90's. :lol MJ was my second favorite player. He was superman in the clutch.

They don't want a counter. They want cart blanche to spread their BS like manure. Remember, they said the same stuff about Fatal9 and he arguably was the ISH GOAT. Easier to censor then try to win the debate.

My beef is the mythology his fans push. When you peel back the BS and have a real discussion, you find there isn't much different. Kuniva and I had a long exchange on MJ and Pippen. At the end we both agreed on 90% of things, even being close on how many rings MJ would win with other stars. The individual you quoted is incapable of having that type of exchange--too emotional.

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 10:04 AM

You and I are now linked Roundball as 'the same poster' due to similar thoughts on Reggie. So how many alts do you allegedly have at current count? I looked back at the thread and saw that KBlaze generally views Reggie in a similar fashion with a comparable level of disdain for throwing around advanced numbers. Not that they have no place but for some it's the backbone of their entire opinion and it enters *every* discussion. Blaze had the smarts to know when the conversation was a dead-end. Think I'm pretty much there too, just took me much longer.

Roundball_Rock

07-22-2020, 10:30 AM

You and I are now linked Roundball as 'the same poster' due to similar thoughts on Reggie. So how many alts do you allegedly have at current count?

:lol It is hilarious that "Reggie43" hates you. Is there anyone else who hates you? Do the same poster"s" also hate me and echo the same "3ball counterpart" and calls for a ban agenda? Hmm...coincidence? :oldlol:

Yeah, Blaze and most people in this thread had the same view. The divide was between those who saw Reggie in the 90's and younger people going by oRTG or TS %.

I also think it is comical the 98' Pacers--the team that came closest to beating those Bulls title teams--are being called a team of Miller and scrubs who had no shot to actually win. If the 98' Pacers weren't real competition, what they are saying is MJ won 6 chips with zero comp. That's the clear implication. That is very "anti-MJ"...

Phoenix

07-22-2020, 10:41 AM

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrouchyUnconsciousArmyworm-size_restricted.gif

by our stupidity, perseverance and timing' powers combined

:lol

Roundball_Rock

07-22-2020, 10:53 AM

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrouchyUnconsciousArmyworm-size_restricted.gif

by our stupidity, perseverance and timing' powers combined

:lol

:lol

insidious301

07-22-2020, 12:47 PM

Jermaine wasn't on the 2000 team. During the regular season Jalen was the leading scorer( by like a fraction) but without looking it up I'm sure Reggie was the leading playoff/finals scorer. Jermaine Oneal joined in 01 and took over the leading scorer role in 02, followed by Jalen then Reggie. Artest came onboard that year as well. As he pushed 40 Reggie naturally scaled back to more of an elder statesman role.

I think you misunderstood, Phoenix. This was me agreeing with Reggie43(who said you couldn't distinguish the best player until Reggie was 37). You could say Jermaine O'neal was been in the 2002 regular-season but Reggie Miller had a better playoffs from what I recall.