Top Defenders of the 90s by year and Defensive Rating

[tpols]

1990 - Hakeem Olajuwan 93
1991 - Hakeem Olajuwan 93
1992 - David Robinson 94
1993 - Pat Ewing 94
1994 - Pat Ewing 92
1995 - Scottie Pippen 98
1996 - David Robinson 95
1997 - Zo Mourning 96
1998 - David Robinson 93
1999 - David Robinson 87 (nick young what the **** gif)


Two things stand out to me.

Hakeem being statistical DPOY for 5 years from the late 80s to 1991.

David Robinson posting a ridiculous and maybe GOAT 87. He 187'ed offenses i guess you could say.

[Kblaze8855]

1999 had its own issues.

[Shooter]

Scottie Thickens

The only non Center to make the list :applause:

[tpols]

Scottie Thickens

The only non Center to make the list :applause:

He was a great defender but it also highlights the defensive impact of big men over perimeter players.

Pippen had by far the worse DRTG of any year on this list. And the media listed Gary Payton as a top 10 defensive player ever when he wasnt even top 10 in his own era most likely. There's no reason to ever consider accolades because theyre very biased and dont reflect the truth.

Isnt it funny how DRTG perfectly paints the best defensive players of an era but ORTG somehow doesn't.

[Kblaze8855]

Pretty clear neither one does. Look at this years rankings. 5 of the top 8 defenders in the nba do not play for the bucks and Malik rose and Will Perdue were not elite on 99 either. But great total defensive teams give the whole team high ratings.

I don’t care about Jordan being 17th in ortg or Jimmy Butler being 8th all time or Billips 25 with Dirk and Kareem in the 40s or bird in the 60s with Adrian Dantley 12th all time. It’s just....trivia.

[Round Mound]

Scottie Thickens

The only non Center to make the list :applause:

And 3-ball thinks he sucks :facepalm:rolleyes::no:

[Roundball_Rock]

And 3-ball thinks he sucks :facepalm:rolleyes::no:

:lol

I believe the only perimeter players to do every do so are Pippen and Kawhi.

It is a flawed stat (as KBlaze) noted but in those two cases it foots with all the available other evidence.

[Round Mound]

:lol

I believe the only perimeter players to do every do so are Pippen and Kawhi.

It is a flawed stat (as KBlaze) noted but in those two cases it foots with all the available other evidence.

I think Bird and Dr J also did it (finished in the Top of Tops in Defensive Rating while not being centers or powerforwards). But both of them where not the defenders Pippen was. Bird was a great team and help defender and solid post defender. Dr J was great at blocking shots ala Lebron chase downs etc but Pippen would hurt you while guarding 1-4 positions: defending one on one while also being a great team and help defender. He was also a good shot blocker his prime. To add to that, Pippen was a 20-22 PPG scorer if he wanted to be, a great slasher, finisher, dunker, coast to coast player, ballhandler for a 6'8 point forward and he was the best play making forward of the 90's in terms timing decision making while under control with the ball or ballhandling it. Pippen was one of the most verstaile players ever.

[tpols]

What's flawed about it?

It perfectly aligns with reality 10/10 here for the whole decade.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think Bird and Dr J also did it (finished in the Top of Tops in Defensive Rating while not being centers or powerforwards). But both of them where not the defenders Pippen was. Bird was a great team and help defender and solid post defender. Dr J was great at blocking shots ala Lebron chase downs etc but Pippen would hurt you while guarding 1-4 positions: defending one on one while also being a great team and help defender. He was also a good shot blocker his prime. To add to that, Pippen was a 20-22 PPG scorer if he wanted to be, a great slasher, finisher, dunker, coast to coast player, ballhandler for a 6'8 point forward and he was the best play making forward of the 90's in terms timing decision making while under control with the ball or ballhandling it. Pippen was one of the most verstaile players ever.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

You obviously actually watched the Bulls play. He also added a post game later in his career as he aged and couldn't slash to the hoop as well as he did when he was younger. A full arsenal to score along with the playmaking and great defense. I don't know how he had the energy to do all that. He didn't get to take a play off on the court and he was playing high minutes each year.

In today's game he would be able to play 1-5 along with having a much easier path to the hoop, making him even more lethal on both ends.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

From basketball reference:

"Individual offensive rating is the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?'"

The basic building blocks of the Offensive Rating calculation are Individual Total Possessions and Individual Points Produced. The formula for Total Possessions is broken down into four components: Scoring Possessions, Missed FG Possessions, Missed FT Possessions, and Turnovers"

A good example of a high offensive rating guy is Kawhi Leonard at 7th highest ever in career playoffs. Magic Johnson is also extremely high. Good offensive rebounding bigs who are efficient are also high like Horace Grant and Tristin Thompson.

Now on defensive rating:

The core of the Defensive Rating calculation is the concept of the individual Defensive Stop. Stops take into account the instances of a player ending an opposing possession that are tracked in the boxscore (blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds), in addition to an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks"

Big guys like Duncan/Gobert are great to anchor a defense for an entire season because rim protection kills at the end of the day. But when met with the wrong matchup in playoffs, its these same big men who can get torched in pick and roll and totally exposed. Harden usually gets the best of Gobert and Dirk torched Duncan's team in 06. I think I would prefer a wing who can lock down man to man but can also help out effectively like Pippen/Kawhi/LeBron.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What's flawed about it?

It perfectly aligns with reality 10/10 here for the whole decade.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career_p.html

There's flaws in it I think. Kenyon Martin and PJ Brown higher career defensive rating in playoffs then Hakeem. Its also heavily biased towards big men.

[Shooter]

:lol

I believe the only perimeter players to do every do so are Pippen and Kawhi.

It is a flawed stat (as KBlaze) noted but in those two cases it foots with all the available other evidence.

I think Draymond did one year as well. He was a 97 in 2015. Lebron was a 97 in 2012.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not a big advocate of individual ORTG or DRTG. They don't isolate a players impact like the stats I posted in that other thread do.

With that being said this looks accurate.

[Roundball_Rock]

"Individual offensive rating is the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?'"

The basic building blocks of the Offensive Rating calculation are Individual Total Possessions and Individual Points Produced. The formula for Total Possessions is broken down into four components: Scoring Possessions, Missed FG Possessions, Missed FT Possessions, and Turnovers"

Which isn't surprising when you look at who oRTG spits out as the GOAT players.


. Stops take into account the instances of a player ending an opposing possession that are tracked in the boxscore (blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds), in addition to an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks"


Yeah, this doesn't do a good job of capturing help defense.


I think Draymond did one year as well. He was a 97 in 2015. Lebron was a 97 in 2012.

Impressive. Thanks.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not a big advocate of individual ORTG or DRTG. They don't isolate a players impact like the stats I posted in that other thread do.

With that being said this looks accurate.

Just like basically every other basketball reference stat. Flawed but good.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I think Draymond did one year as well. He was a 97 in 2015. Lebron was a 97 in 2012.

Kawhi was 96 in back to back years 2015 and 2016 regular seasons. Which may be more impressive then Pippen in 1995 since Kawhi was in the better offensive era.

[Shooter]

Kawhi was 96 in back to back years 2015 and 2016 regular seasons. Which may be more impressive then Pippen in 1995 since Kawhi was in the better offensive era.

You have to look at games played though...Otherwise it's not fair to the players that expend more energy and don't 'pick and choose' the games they played.

In 2015 and 2016 Kawhi played 64 and 72 games with 96 and 96 DRtg

In 1994 and 1995 Pippen played 72 and 79 games with 97 and 98 DRtg

In order to make it fair since kawhit only played 64 games you would need to take Pippen's best 64 games thus eliminating his 8 worst games since he played 8 more and I'm sure Pippen would roast Kawhi's numbers by even more. Good effort tho

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Which isn't surprising when you look at who oRTG spits out as the GOAT players.



Yeah, this doesn't do a good job of capturing help defense.



Impressive. Thanks.

Yeah the way I see it.

Individual offensive rating = evaluating your shooting/scoring/turnovers per 100 possessions

Individual defensive rating = evaluating your defensive rebounds, blocks, steals

Team offensive/defensive ratings seem good. Individual ratings are just flawed unless your entire point is to just look at the things I mentioned.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2016 Kawhi still played 72 games which was enough for Harden to win MVP in 2018, that's still enough games that year.

[Carbine]

There are too many things that go into being a good defensive player that any advanced stat is thrown out the window for me. This isn't baseball where it's a static game, with only a few outcomes per play which can all easily be measured by a stat.

[Shooter]

2016 Kawhi still played 72 games which was enough for Harden to win MVP in 2018, that's still enough games that year.

Yikes, still played 7 fewer games than Pip

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah the way I see it.

Individual offensive rating = evaluating your shooting/scoring/turnovers per 100 possessions

Individual defensive rating = evaluating your defensive rebounds, blocks, steals

Team offensive/defensive ratings seem good. Individual ratings are just flawed unless your entire point is to just look at the things I mentioned.

I think advanced stats have value but you have to look at the totality of advanced stats as well as judge their formulas against what we know about actual play. Like you noted, D Rating skews towards big men. If we are talking about Kawhi or Green's D Rating, we should take that into account.

Most advanced stats paint the same general picture but some people on ISH go around boiling players solely to their O Rating, not understanding it favors certain types of players and turns some weaknesses into pluses via the formula (e.g., an inability to handle the ball becomes a plus for individual O Rating because a player who barely has the ball in his hands won't have many turnovers).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Just like basically every other basketball reference stat. Flawed but good.

Not exactly. OBPM is flawed but nowhere near raw ORTG. With OBPM and OBPM at least these attempt to isolate a players impact. And yes both are available on bball-ref.

RAPM and RPM are both regression stats and superior versions of BPM. The goal is to provide more accurate results by employing “ridge regression”. Limits the standard errors in adjusted plus-minus. Moreover, RAPM and RPM are both used by ESPN and the NBA.

[tpols]

Look at this years rankings. 5 of the top 8 defenders in the nba do not play for the bucks and Malik rose and Will Perdue were not elite on 99 either. But great total defensive teams give the whole team high ratings.


Last 10 years going backwards

Giannis
Whiteside
Drummond
Drummond
Whiteside
Kawhi
Noah
Duncan
Garnett
Dwight
Dwight

:confusedshrug:

Looks like it's doing a decent job.


Its also heavily biased towards big men.

Big men are generally much more impactful at defense than perimeter players. The creme of the crop of defensive impact is elite rim protection. Same way the creme for offense is elite shooting and playmaking ability and why perimeter players are always the best crunchtime producers.

[Kblaze8855]

You realize that just because humans obsess over a few numbers(1, 5 and all multiples of 10) it doesn’t mean that one of them being accurate makes a ranking accurate in whole right? Even if #1 is correct(and it often isn’t) if number 2 or 6 or 9 are laughable that’s just as large an error.

This like all the other advanced stats spits out a list with lots of laughable results because thats unavoidable when you try to make any of these abstract things a single number.

[tpols]

Every great DPOY to ever exist had an awesome DRTG. Ditto offensive players with ORTG when you factor in volume.

All of life operates under the premise of standard bell curve.

https://tacunited.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/bell-curve-sm1.jpg

You cant point out outliers for anything.

Cherrypicking certain parameters and outliers doesn't mean anything because nothing is perfect like you want it to be.

[tpols]

it still amazes me... we're not allowed to count per possession rate of success on offense or defense.

:roll:

It's ****ing absurd.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not exactly. OBPM is flawed but nowhere near raw ORTG. With OBPM and OBPM at least these attempt to isolate a players impact. And yes both are available on bball-ref.

RAPM and RPM are both regression stats and superior versions of BPM. The goal is to provide more accurate results by employing “ridge regression”. Limits the standard errors in adjusted plus-minus. Moreover, RAPM and RPM are both used by ESPN and the NBA.

Let me clarify that. OBPM AND DBPM. You probably knew what I meant but some posters on here, well, you never know :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Every great DPOY to ever exist had an awesome DRTG. Ditto offensive players with ORTG when you factor in volume.

All of life operates under the premise of standard bell curve.

https://tacunited.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/bell-curve-sm1.jpg

You cant point out outliers for anything.

Cherrypicking certain parameters and outliers doesn't mean anything because nothing is perfect like you want it to be.


It’s not an outlier when the obviously wrong rankings are so common. Offense or defense the wrong ones are far too common to call them outliers. The accurate ones are outliers.

[Kblaze8855]

it still amazes me... we're not allowed to count per possession rate of success on offense or defense.

:roll:

It's ****ing absurd.


Because it obviously doesn’t exist independently of teammates, coaching, era, and other factors....like what you mentioned as a GOAT 1999. Suddenly starting the season with a bunch of out of shape guys who didn’t expect to have to return and a lot of bad basketball coming of it doesnt make the top defenders the best ever.

It means half the league was off its game. The Hawks scored like 83ppg....

You can’t use these numbers reasonably without more context than most of you really feel like providing.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In fairness to tpols, his OP does look accurate at first glance. Robinson? Ewing? Hakeem? Zo? All of those guys were powerhouses on defefense.

I get that DRTG is flawed like TS% is depending on who you use it for. We all have are reservations. But nobody is going to argue those names. Nobody in their right mind anyway.

[Kblaze8855]

And then you look at the rest of each individual list to see the obvious issues. The ones more obvious even than Andre Drummond. The best defensive teams tend to have several of these guys. And there is an incredibly short list of teams to have more than one truly elite defender at a time. Doesn’t take long to work out how that happens.

A great defender alone can’t make a team that good on D. It takes a culture. Coaching. Everyone’s numbers look good and the top guy looks like god. All these guys are nice. Few of them drag teammates into all time defender status. Even if the teammates numbers suggest it.

You can find years with 4-5 guys on one team at the top. Drob is nice. He doesn’t make Will Perdue into Dennis Rodman. Even if Perdues ratings in 99 say otherwise.

Those are the meat of the rankings. The other guys who clearly don’t make sense. And there are too many to call them outliers.

[tpols]

You can look at Hakeem, Ewing, Zo, Robinson, Pippen etc. every year they were elite DRTG. Amongst a million changing circumstances. True defensive talent shines through. Jason Kidd inherited a team that finished 23rd on defense and in his FIRST year led them to 1st rank defense.

He had a 93 DRTG in the 2004 series against the Detroit Pistons. Just absolutely ridiculous from a perimeter player. GOAT even. I knew it back then, and the numbers validate it today.

[Roundball_Rock]

How do you calculate individual statistical contributions fully? How does defensive rating capture help defense? If a player covers 4 players on a possession and that leads to a miss--there is no stat showing what that player did since there is no block, steal, or turnover involved.

These things are useful but need to be compared against other data, the eye test, etc. and against the formula. PER, for instance, deflates ballhandlers because they generate more turnovers for obvious reasons. When comparing PER between a PG and a C, that has to be weighed.

[97 bulls]

How do you calculate individual statistical contributions fully? How does defensive rating capture help defense? If a player covers 4 players on a possession and that leads to a miss--there is no stat showing what that player did since there is no block, steal, or turnover involved.

These things are useful but need to be compared against other data, the eye test, etc. and against the formula. PER, for instance, deflates ballhandlers because they generate more turnovers for obvious reasons. When comparing PER between a PG and a C, that has to be weighed.

All stats have to taken with context. Generally speaking, centers shoot a higher FG%. Does that mean they're better scorers? No, they tend to be closer to the basket, and thus get higher percentage shots.

Just because you lead the league in scoring doesn't necessarily mean you're the best offensive player. Or even best scorer. Other players may have to share the ball more, or it may be the offense that is being run.

The only real inarguable stat is FT%.

[Roundball_Rock]

All stats have to taken with context. Generally speaking, centers shoot a higher FG%. Does that mean they're better scorers? No, they tend to be closer to the basket, and thus get higher percentage shots.

Just because you lead the league in scoring doesn't necessarily mean you're the best offensive player. Or even best scorer. Other players may have to share the ball more, or it may be the offense that is being run.

The only real inarguable stat is FT%.

Yup.