View Full Version : Why did Vince Carter underachieve so bad
Jay-B
07-19-2020, 12:06 AM
I remember when he was in Toronto thinking this guy might be the next MJ. I know he had some injuries but I think the trade to the NJ Nets hurt his career
light
07-19-2020, 01:02 AM
I don't think he did.
I think he fully maximized his talent.
What we saw was Vince Carter doing the very best he could do, imo.
I think his stint with the nets was quite decent. Could have done a much better job of leading them tho alongside kidd but at least he never averaged below 20 ppg during his 4 1/4 seasons with them, unlike he did with the rest of his other teams.
Shooter
07-19-2020, 02:37 AM
Not everyone can do what LBJ or even to a lesser extent MJ (LBJ lite) did.
6 Finals is tough, 9 is tougher.
dbugz
07-19-2020, 02:41 AM
Not everyone can do what LBJ or even to a lesser extend MJ (LBJ lite) did.
6 Finals is tough, 9 is tougher.
winning below 30% (all with *) of that 9 is really tougher to swallow. can't do that. 15th-20th goat list cemented.
Not everyone can do what LBJ or even to a lesser extend MJ (LBJ lite) did.
6 Finals is tough, 9 is tougher.
Kaj will just say "hold my beer" to both of them
Shooter
07-19-2020, 02:43 AM
winning below 30% (all with *) of that 9 is really tougher to swallow. can't do that. 15th-20th goat list cemented.
Cant hit 6,000 points? Yikes
#NotMyGoat
6,911 good luck to all
dbugz
07-19-2020, 02:44 AM
and only has 3 ring. Yup keep putting that number :roll:
Damn he just called mj 'lbj lite' lmfao :roll:
Real Men Wear Green
07-19-2020, 10:21 AM
Guys like MJ and Kobe are a little crazy with the competitive drive to succeed. Carter isn't like that. Carter is happy with his career. Of course he would have won 10 championships if he had his choice but he's good with how things went and if you think he's only a top 80 player of all time when he could have been top 5? He's not losing any sleep. That's a healthy approach to life (think about it: 20 years in the MBA and millions in the bank, he's had a great career) but it doesn't maximize talent.
StrongLurk
07-19-2020, 10:26 AM
Did he underachieve? I think he did reasonably well. If anything, his shortcomings in his career were mostly mental.
Overdrive
07-19-2020, 10:29 AM
Guys like MJ and Kobe are a little crazy with the competitive drive to succeed. Carter isn't like that. Carter is happy with his career. Of course he would have won 10 championships if he had his choice but he's good with how things went and if you think he's only a top 80 player of all time when he could have been top 5? He's not losing any sleep. That's a healthy approach to life (think about it: 20 years in the MBA and millions in the bank, he's had a great career) but it doesn't maximize talent.
His approach pretty much showed when he got offered contracts by contenders and declined. Some players just want to play basketball.
WhiteKyrie
07-19-2020, 12:29 PM
Not everyone can do what LBJ or even to a lesser extent MJ (LBJ lite) did.
6 Finals is tough, 9 is tougher.
Participation Trophies?
Then I guess Tom Heinsohn has a case for GOAT too.
Good Job, Good Effort.
To answer OP, natural talent, and athleticism alone doesn't dictate production, and accomplishment. More than anything the will of the man, not just the skill of the man.
Vince had no heart. No toughness. No determination. Not a super competitor.
Just complacency, and honestly given his talent, probably laziness. Basketball probably wasn't a first place passion for him.
Real Men Wear Green
07-19-2020, 01:30 PM
Participation Trophies?
Then I guess Tom Heinsohn has a case for GOAT too.
Good Job, Good Effort.
To answer OP, natural talent, and athleticism alone doesn't dictate production, and accomplishment. More than anything the will of the man, not just the skill of the man.
Vince had no heart. No toughness. No determination. Not a super competitor.
Just complacency, and honestly given his talent, probably laziness. Basketball probably wasn't a first place passion for him.
Way back when Pierce vs Carter was a hotter topic I posted things that criticized Carter more harshly but looking back on his career more fairly this is excessive. He is not a supreme competitor but he did put in the work on his game. He was always in good shape and had a good skill set. Came into the league as the greatest dunker of all time and exits as a three-point specialist with several All-Star selections along the way. He had a great career. You're too caught up in what you think he could have been. He still deserves credit for the player that he became.
The only truly bad thing I would say about Carter is that I do believe he intentionally tanked his way ot of Toronto. Averaging 16 in his prime like that was questionable and the way he exploded after the trade to the Nets proved he was not giving an honest effort. But no almost everyone had something you can criticize.
ralph_i_el
07-19-2020, 01:45 PM
There's only one championship per year folks. Lots of great players are going to play their heart out and give us so much great basketball, and never sniff a ring. He joined Orlando and Dallas a year after their runs to the finals, and played good ball for both of those teams.
You don't get to be his level of player without being an extremely hard worker and competitor. Not unless you're a 7'+ freakazoid athlete.
Phoenix
07-19-2020, 01:56 PM
I remember that last season with Toronto, word got out that he was dropping plays to the opposition. Pretty bad stuff if true. As soon as he gets to NJ he's doing 27 a game that year so he was definitely half-assing his way out of town. I always hoped with enough time to heal wounds he would have come full circle and ended his career with the Raptors. Joining last years team and getting a ring would have been the perfect way to end it all.
Vince wasn't obsessively competitive as has been said already. His talent level was way up there but outside of his first 3 seasons I never got the sense he was that driven to be at the top of the league. Which would have been hard since his prime coincided with Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett, etc. Really tough era to be the best, but I feel like he stopped trying to be even 'one of' at a certain point. Still had a much longer career than I would have imagined.
WhiteKyrie
07-19-2020, 04:37 PM
Way back when Pierce vs Carter was a hotter topic I posted things that criticized Carter more harshly but looking back on his career more fairly this is excessive. He is not a supreme competitor but he did put in the work on his game. He was always in good shape and had a good skill set. Came into the league as the greatest dunker of all time and exits as a three-point specialist with several All-Star selections along the way. He had a great career. You're too caught up in what you think he could have been. He still deserves credit for the player that he became.
The only truly bad thing I would say about Carter is that I do believe he intentionally tanked his way ot of Toronto. Averaging 16 in his prime like that was questionable and the way he exploded after the trade to the Nets proved he was not giving an honest effort. But no almost everyone had something you can criticize.
No it’s not excessive. It’s the truth and answers OP’s question.
The most motivated and competitive VC ever was IMO was the 2000 Olympics. When he played angry after his brother’s unfortunate death.
But besides that, he had more natural talent than Kobe. Some people just want it more. Have a greater drive to succeed. The competitiveness just wasn’t there.
Same thing with his cousin, McGrady. But to a lesser extent. Look how much insane natural physical ability he had yet how poor of a defender VC was? Defense is indicative of try hardness, competitiveness, winning mentality and mental toughness. And he never played anything resembling defense. A microcosm for his lack of try hard.
VC coasted and had a great long career on insane natural ability and god given athletic gifts borderline exclusively. Was he still a perennial all star, HOF with skills? Absolutely. But that’s not near all it takes to be a winner.
I mean he out and out quit in actual games for a quarter to almost half a season in Toronto just to get traded. I can’t picture Bird, Magic, Mike, Iverson, Kobe, Wade or hell even competitive cowards like LeBron and KD doing that.
I remember that last season with Toronto, word got out that he was dropping plays to the opposition. Pretty bad stuff if true. As soon as he gets to NJ he's doing 27 a game that year so he was definitely half-assing his way out of town. I always hoped with enough time to heal wounds he would have come full circle and ended his career with the Raptors. Joining last years team and getting a ring would have been the perfect way to end it all.
Vince wasn't obsessively competitive as has been said already. His talent level was way up there but outside of his first 3 seasons I never got the sense he was that driven to be at the top of the league. Which would have been hard since his prime coincided with Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett, etc. Really tough era to be the best, but I feel like he stopped trying to be even 'one of' at a certain point. Still had a much longer career than I would have imagined.
./. ./. ./.
Marchesk
07-20-2020, 01:34 AM
I remember when he was in Toronto thinking this guy might be the next MJ. I know he had some injuries but I think the trade to the NJ Nets hurt his career
So maybe people should hold off on saying Zion is the next GOAT for a few years. Vince Carter was ridiculously athletic and skilled, and that doesn't guarantee you a future place on NBA Mount Rushmore.
Smook A.
07-20-2020, 02:50 AM
He really did underachieve and I honestly think anyone who says otherwise is crazy.
He had so much talent, yet he was only named to an All-NBA team TWO times, and never a first team selection. He was also an 8x all-star, ROY, and slam dunk champ. That's it. That's where his accolades stop. In his 3rd year, he averaged his career high of 27 ppg and since that he only averaged above 25 ppg ONCE. Vince could've done so much more in his prime, imo. I really think he was just missing that extra step in his work ethic, and he lacked the motivation and determination other all-time superstars had.
He wasn't much of a playoff winner either. Only made it past the 2nd round once and that was during his lone year with Orlando in the 2010 season.
bullettooth
07-20-2020, 09:20 AM
Not everyone can do what LBJ or even to a lesser extent MJ (LBJ lite) did.
6 Finals is tough, 9 is tougher.
Where do you rank Jerry West and Elgin Baylor?
oldtimer28
07-20-2020, 09:40 AM
Participation Trophies?
Then I guess Tom Heinsohn has a case for GOAT too.
Good Job, Good Effort.
To answer OP, natural talent, and athleticism alone doesn't dictate production, and accomplishment. More than anything the will of the man, not just the skill of the man.
Vince had no heart. No toughness. No determination. Not a super competitor.
Just complacency, and honestly given his talent, probably laziness. Basketball probably wasn't a first place passion for him.
Come on. Hate to call you out but are you an NBA player?
'Vince had no heart. No toughness. No determination. Not a super competitor.'
Typical armchair quarterbacking (or a disgruntled Canadian...). I admit I can't play anymore and wasn't good enough to make the NBA on my best day, but still would never say the above about a definite NBA hall of famer, olympic champion, etc.
Vince just seemed a better offensive player than defensive and didn't drive/draw contact like some of the greats (eg. Iverson) but was still determined to score.
Vince's expectations 'next Jordan' were too high/inaccurate. He had a great career and bravo for him helping the hawks for his final year instead of joining a championship roster to tick a box.
Phoenix
07-20-2020, 09:49 AM
Vince came into the NBA in 99, a year after MJ left the Bulls. A bald 6'6 swingman with a 40+ vertical and a flair for the flashy play/dunk? Worst time for any player with that make-up to enter the league.
iamgine
07-20-2020, 03:14 PM
In what way did he underachieve?
Jay-B
07-20-2020, 04:23 PM
I for one thought he had the talent to have Kobe status and maybe lead a team to 1 or 2 championships. You guys don’t remember his first few years? U could say he was a top 5 player in those years
tpols
07-20-2020, 04:53 PM
He really didn't underachieve that bad at all imo... he was a 25/5/5 star in NJ for quite a few years. Best run with us 30/7/5 on 115 ORTG +10 split? Thats retardedly elite. They lost to shaq and wade... one team has to win and one has to lose. I will admit his efficiency was up and down, but it was better than anything iverson ever put up, and he was always voted all NBA over vince. Can anybody name a single thing basketball wise that iverson did better on the court than vince carter? He's worse offensively, defensively, and intangibly but his name sold records.
The man had a 20 year career in the NBA and is HOF for sure... if that's underachieving, everybody outside the couple players that hogged all the rings was a loser.
People citing All NBA teams... he played in a golden era for guards. Kobe, Wade, Kidd, Tmac, Ray Allen, Nash, etc. And there are a lot of sketchy years where other guys were taken over him for no reason.
Doranku
07-20-2020, 05:08 PM
Can't really fault him for team success when the best player he played with in his prime was Richard Jefferson.
tpols
07-20-2020, 05:09 PM
Can't really fault him for team success when the best player he played with in his prime was Richard Jefferson.
he played with jason kidd bro... and he was still very very much in his prime when Carter came over.
Doranku
07-20-2020, 05:11 PM
he played with jason kidd bro... and he was still very very much in his prime when Carter came over.
Kidd was 32, idk about that being "very very much" in his prime.
tpols
07-20-2020, 05:15 PM
Kidd was 32, idk about that being "very very much" in his prime.
He averaged a playoff triple double on big time positive splits as late as 2007. 14/11/11 on incredible efficiency. they lost to LBJ and the Cavaliers. Vince Carter shit the bed completely against Lebron, Kidd was always great pretty much.
He averaged a playoff triple double on big time positive splits as late as 2007. 14/11/11 on incredible efficiency. they lost to LBJ and the Cavaliers. Vince Carter shit the bed completely against Lebron, Kidd was always great pretty much.
If Kidd was still in his prime and they had Carter and Jefferson, why was that team so mediocre?
tpols
07-20-2020, 05:29 PM
If Kidd was still in his prime and they had Carter and Jefferson, why was that team so mediocre?
because carter shit the bed after 2006. He went from 30 ppg on 115 ORTG the year prior to 19 ppg on 95 ORTG... just pathetic. Now go look up what Lebron put on him and RJ.
Big Z also performed way better than Vince. That's actually sad.
because carter shit the bed after 2006. He went from 30 ppg on 115 ORTG the year prior to 19 ppg on 95 ORTG... just pathetic. Now go look up what Lebron put on him and RJ.
I meant in the regular season dude. They were 41-41. Hell, they were only 42-40 in 2004-05.
tpols
07-20-2020, 05:36 PM
Now that I'm reviewing it, it is pretty damning how hard he fell of at only 30 years old. I didn't know his age when I used to watch all those games, but if you look at the numbers he never did anything star worthy past once he hit 30. Fell off a total cliff for whatever reason.
Now that I'm reviewing it, it is pretty damning how hard he fell of at only 30 years old. I didn't know his age when I used to watch all those games, but if you look at the numbers he never did anything star worthy past once he hit 30. Fell off a total cliff for whatever reason.
What? He was still putting up 20.8/5.1/4.7 at age 32. Please answer my question on why those Nets teams were mediocre Im curious.
tpols
07-20-2020, 05:41 PM
I meant in the regular season dude. They were 41-41. Hell, they were only 42-40 in 2004-05.
They did underachieve on offense.
Just looking it up they were 25th rank offense both years carter, kidd, and RJ were all dead prime. That's... really bad. For their talent. But, when you check the splits, you'll see that big 3 actually performed very well. Big time positive. It was the role players that sucked. If you look at any teams splits, usually there will be role players who just go off. Usually a couple, because they work off the star's action and get great looks. The Nets role players were truly, truly terrible. Look it up. Krstic, Jason Collins, Jaques Vaughn, the ghost of clifford robinson...
They did underachieve on offense.
Just looking it up they were 25th rank offense both years carter, kidd, and RJ were all dead prime. That's... really bad. For their talent. But, when you check the splits, you'll see that big 3 actually performed very well. It was the role players that sucked. If you look at any teams splits, usually there will be role players who just go off. Ussually a couple, because they work off the star's action and get great looks. The Nets role players were truly, truly terrible. Look it up.
Gotcha, that makes sense. I agree they definitely shouldn't have had such a shit offense. Thanks.
getting_old
07-20-2020, 07:01 PM
I remember when he was in Toronto thinking this guy might be the next MJ. I know he had some injuries but I think the trade to the NJ Nets hurt his career
he didn't care
made for a long career
Vince came into the NBA in 99, a year after MJ left the Bulls. A bald 6'6 swingman with a 40+ vertical and a flair for the flashy play/dunk? Worst time for any player with that make-up to enter the league.
./.
Reggie43
07-20-2020, 08:23 PM
He was the type of talent that could have lead his own team to the Finals. I remember him killing the Pacers in their first few meetings with about 9+ threes and was amazed how he could shoot this good while also having the ability to jump and dunk all over the place.
Reggie43
07-20-2020, 08:46 PM
might have been against a different team but you guys probably get what im saying.
Mauzah
07-20-2020, 09:07 PM
It's a strange case. As a Canadian I watched my fair share of Raptors games and aside from his last few months with Toronto you can't say that the man didn't compete while he was out on the floor and yet somehow VC wasn't an empty stats guy and wasn't a Kobe or AI type either.
I wonder if it's because he didn't have a true sidekick throughout his career. A guy who can score the ball, not JKidd who was obviously one of the best PG's to play the game but VC never really had that other big name to ease the scoring burden off himself. The hill might have been just to steep to climb so why bother giving it your all when your just going to come up short.
And even with multiple all-star appearances and a 20 year career with the amount of raw talent and athletic ability that man had.... yah I would say he underachieved. Still a great career though.
Phoenix
07-21-2020, 03:33 AM
I don't think Vince wanted the expectations after a while. 2000 I was at Uni in Canada and saw ALOT of Raptor games on TSN. The hype was real.
He basically maxed out by his 3rd season. That missed shot against Philly in game 7? That was more or less the end of Vinsanity on *that* level. He had some nagging injury issues afterwards till he played his way out of Toronto. Played well and had somewhat of a return to form his first season or two in Jersey but it wasn't the same. Other than the Colorado incident soiling his image Kobe more or less occupied MJs spot and then you had the young guns Lebron and Wade coming in. Vince sticking around as a journeyman role player is much closer to his personality level, just wanting to ball and be one of the guys, than trying to live up to some next MJ moniker. Guys like Kobe and Lebron never coiled from that label but Vince never seemed to want to be the best as badly as we wanted him to be.
I don't think Vince wanted the expectations after a while. 2000 I was at Uni in Canada and saw ALOT of Raptor games on TSN. The hype was real.
He basically maxed out by his 3rd season. That missed shot against Philly in game 7? That was more or less the end of Vinsanity on *that* level. He had some nagging injury issues afterwards till he played his way out of Toronto. Played well and had somewhat of a return to form his first season or two in Jersey but it wasn't the same. Other than the Colorado incident soiling his image Kobe more or less occupied MJs spot and then you had the young guns Lebron and Wade coming in. Vince sticking around as a journeyman role player is much closer to his personality level, just wanting to ball and be one of the guys, than trying to live up to some next MJ moniker. Guys like Kobe and Lebron never coiled from that label but Vince never seemed to want to be the best as badly as we wanted him to be.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/4e97670a67f135b533b9464cb9ac95e9/tenor.gif
Uncle Drew
07-21-2020, 11:41 AM
I think Carter lived up to expectations just fine. Everyone heralded him being the next Jordan, and he was just that. Difference is, he didn't have a Scottie Pippen to carry him. :confusedshrug: Other than that, they were pretty much equals, although it has to be said Vince was more athletic.
Jay-B
07-22-2020, 12:28 AM
I think Carter lived up to expectations just fine. Everyone heralded him being the next Jordan, and he was just that. Difference is, he didn't have a Scottie Pippen to carry him. :confusedshrug: Other than that, they were pretty much equals, although it has to be said Vince was more athletic.
I remember thinking McGrady was the Pippen and Carter was the Jordan when they first came in the league
Never mind the delusional stans but these toxic mudslingers seem to forget that basketball is a team sport. By saying that he didn't win chips at all without pip, why are they trying to make it sound like pip did so without him? Besides, he didn't recruit him to the bulls anyway just to get one or more.
Phoenix
07-22-2020, 01:24 AM
I remember thinking McGrady was the Pippen and Carter was the Jordan when they first came in the league
That's how it appeared at first. I don't recall there being the expectation that Tmac had the kind of offensive talent he displayed in Orlando. He was supposed to be Grant's sidekick when he left.
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