MJ won his titles with a 3 star team

[AirBonner]

MJ, Pippen, Oakley/ Rodman. While his opponents were 2 star teams

[RRR3]

Oakley? :roll:

[AirBonner]

Oakley? :roll:

Should I include BJ as well? Both were all stars so I guess technically they were a 4 star team

[Roundball_Rock]

Oakley was traded for Cartwright after the 88' season (they needed a C to defend Ewing and other centers and Grant made Oakley expendable).

You could argue Kukoc. 3ball's numbers say 98' Kukoc=13' Wade. Yeah, it's crazy but that's what his own numbers say. :lol

[AirBonner]

Oakley was traded for Cartwright after the 88' season (they needed a C to defend Ewing and other centers and Grant made Oakley expendable).

You could argue Kukoc. 3ball's numbers say 98' Kukoc=13' Wade. Yeah, it's crazy but that's what his own numbers say. :lol
I forgot they had Grant as well! He always slips my mind. MJ heavily relied on him in a couple finals

[Manny98]

Then you throw in Horace,Harper,Kukoc,BJ who were all borderline all star caliber players.

MJ had by FAR the most help of any all time great

[Roundball_Rock]

I forgot they had Grant as well! He always slips my mind. MJ heavily relied on him in a couple finals

His stats don't show it but all you need to look at is the W-L column to see his value. The Bulls went from champs to a contender without MJ but without Grant they slipped to fighting for the 5th seed*. It isn't "apples to apples" as when they lost Grant they were down their best and third best player and we know the SRS decline wasn't consistent with the W-L results (their SRS when healthy in 94' was that of a 55 win team, in 95' before MJ it was of a 52 win team--which was #2 in the East) but you get the point.

There is a reason priority number one after the 95' season was to find a PF to play the "Grant role" of rebounding and elite defense. They just got lucky into getting the best possible player for those things because Rodman's shenanigans allowed them to get him for free.

*Pippen missed two games officially and de facto a third game against a 17 win team when he was ejected in the second quarter. The Bulls lost all three. If you project their win pace in the 62 other Pippen, pre-MJ games, they would be 36-29 heading to a game with division leader Indiana, who was 39-24. So even minus MJ, Grant, they weren't that much different than the Pacers, who I am told were really, really, really good.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Horace is a geek who got swept with Shaq/Penny on his team during the 1995 finals.

Rodman was great the first ring but you can make an argument he started declining in 97/98.

Kukoc couldn't even shoot 40% FG in 96/97 rings.

Pippen is the superstar that i think gave Jordan an almost unfair advantage.

[AirBonner]

Conclusion: the reason MJ dominated the 2 star league because he was on the one team with 3 stars

[Roundball_Rock]

Horace is a geek who got swept with Shaq/Penny on his team during the 1995 finals.

True--but remember, before Grant got there they were swept in the first round by a 47 win team. Also check out their record with Grant and without him in 96': 50-12 with him (66 win pace), 10-10 without him. His impact went beyond his stats, as the Bulls learned the hard way.

[tpols]

:roll:

oakley was on the teams he BEAT.

talk about an epic backfire.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

These "Pippen fans" don't even know who he played with :lol

[AirBonner]

These "Pippen fans" don't even know who he played with :lol

He played with MJ 86-88

[tpols]

He played with MJ 86-88

and how many titles did he win?

Go get your ****ing shine box.

[AirBonner]

and how many titles did he win?

Go get your ****ing shine box.

Well he was putting up prime Ben Wallace numbers and MJ still couldn’t succeed with a player of that caliber

[Roundball_Rock]

Each day we get a thread saying "if only MJ got 20 PPG from a sidekick in the 80's he would have 9, 10, 20 rings!". Well, Oakley went 20/15 in the 87' PO. Woolridge 21 two years in a row in 85' and 86'. The results?

It seems a random 20 PPG doesn't cut it. It seems more is required on top of 20...

[getting_old]

MJ had to wait for Bird and Magic the Bad Boys to fall apart

Pippen was completely intimidated by Detroit for years, and FINALLY came to his game when it was patently obvious they were finished.

Lakers fans friends would rage at how weak MJ's teammates were, how that team couldn't remotely match up to prior champions, i would laugh and say those days are gone, enjoy what Michael and his lesser teammates are giving us.

[Axe]

MJ, Pippen, Oakley/ Rodman. While his opponents were 2 star teams
Oakley had rings? Damn.

[Shooter]

This is what I know for certain. Flowchart for Success: What the Jordaneers don't want you to know

I found a simple flow chart to soundly and accurately determine MJ's success. Let me know if it's useful for all:

https://i.postimg.cc/t4rdbbQd/mj-ring-flowchart.png

[Axe]

But pip got chips without baldan?

[NBAGOAT]

only 3 guys should even get thrown around and none have a strong case. grant, rodman, and kukoc. Bj doesnt count he was only an all star in 94(and not a legit one). rodman 96 and grant 92 likely the best cases. Kukoc is more than a role player and great as a 4th guy but he's like last 2 years eric gordon impact wise.

[warriorfan]

https://i.postimg.cc/CKHP7T9P/2224-D406-F616-4627-976-B-231-A3-EBF6-C45.jpg

[AirBonner]

https://i.postimg.cc/CKHP7T9P/2224-D406-F616-4627-976-B-231-A3-EBF6-C45.jpg

I’m not on your ignore list woo!

[Shooter]

I know you're going to look because you're a moron

https://i.postimg.cc/26mv7vf3/Ash.png

[Axe]

I’m not on your ignore list woo!
Lmao how the hell are you supposed to see yourself in his ignore list when none of your replies are even featured in that screenshot? Dumbo :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

True--but remember, before Grant got there they were swept in the first round by a 47 win team. Also check out their record with Grant and without him in 96': 50-12 with him (66 win pace), 10-10 without him. His impact went beyond his stats, as the Bulls learned the hard way.

Yes but he was still swept in the finals despite having a top 5 goat in Shaq and all nba 1st team Penny Hardaway.

Jordan/Pippen on the other hand went 3-0 in finals series with him.

[Roundball_Rock]

I’m not on your ignore list woo!

He has me on his ignore list but he has me on his small mind all the time. Rent free. :lol


Yes but he was still swept in the finals despite having a top 5 goat in Shaq and all nba 1st team Penny Hardaway.

He improved the team from the first round to the finals (although Penny becoming a superstar was a factor as well). That sweep can't really be charged to the third best player can it, when they had two superstars?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He has me on his ignore list but he has me on his small mind all the time. Rent free. :lol



He improved the team from the first round to the finals (although Penny becoming a superstar was a factor as well). That sweep can't really be charged to the third best player can it, when they had two superstars?

Horry gave Rockets a 19 GmSc and Mario Ellie had a 15 GmSc

Horace was at just 12. Seemed like he failed as a 3rd wheel during that series. Rockets weren't really a super team either. But it is only 1 series, maybe I'm not giving him a fair enough sample size.

[Roundball_Rock]

His personal NBA finals seemed to the Bulls series. He left amidst mutual recriminations with the owner (who blamed Grant's "blue flu" for costing the Bulls the 1 seed) and then Jackson dissed him by leaving him unguarded most of the series. Part of it was strategy: if you were doubling Shaq or Penny you didn't want to leave shooters Scott or Anderson open but part of it was he didn't think Grant could rise to the occasion (he would often note that Grant immediately passed up an open shot at the end of Game 6 against Phoenix). As we know, Grant hit those open shots while cleaning up on the glass and was hoisted away on the shoulders of his teammates. That's quite a high to come back from.