Armstrong/Outlaw Magic and Arroyo/Kirilenko Jazz

[Reggie43]

Both teams were basically one win away from a playoff berth despite an obvious lack of talent. Both exceeded expectations despite losing key players to either injury, retirement or free agency but they proved that basketball is more than having star players and having great chemistry, playing the right way and competing hard every game would give you positive results.

Any other team in history that played a similar way? Wherein they defied the odds despite having a roster of mostly unheralded players?

Which teams are the opposite of this wherein they crash and burned despite all the talent in the world?

[XYY]

Kirilenko was a star that year

[warriorfan]

Kirilenko was a star that year

He was incredible that year.

[Reggie43]

Kirilenko was a star that year

He emerged as a star because of the situation. Dont you think the Jazz overachieved immensely that year?

[Reggie43]

That team was 42-40 and the next year year Andrei was injured half the season. The following year they were playing with Okur, Deron and they get back Harpring and Kirilenko still playing in his allstar form but only managed 41 wins despite being a much much more talented team individually than in 2004. How does that happen?

This is actually the point of the thread wherein a bunch of mostly unheralded players can outperform a more talented one by playing the right way.

[XYY]

Kirilenko was at his best playing the 4 when he was an all-star. Was at the 3 after they got Boozer and never as effective from there. Also Sloan changed the offense the year AK was an all-star. Went back to the Dick Motta offense once he had Boozer and Deron to run the pick and roll

[Reggie43]

2004 compared to 2006 he basically had the same numbers. Him playing the 4 spot is far from ideal because he is at a disadvantage physically every night against bruising power forwards. Small forward wa easily his most natural position for the nba.

Kirilenko was a big part of that 2004 team but them playing the right way, competing hard and having great chemistry is a bigger part on how they were able to compete for a playoff spot given the personnel that they had outside Ak47. That team wins under 20 games and nobody bats an eyelash because they were not that speacial individually outside AK. Would actually give more credit to Jerry Sloan on how he gave that team an identity despite losing Stockton and Malone.

[XYY]

He was quicker and more skilled than other 4's. It's where he played his best ball. He was never as good as that year

Probably Sloan's best coaching job because he actually built around the players he had instead of putting players into his system. If you have an all star you can compete as they showed and as they've shown since Gobert emerged 5 plus years ago

[Reggie43]

He was quicker and more skilled than other 4's. It's where he played his best ball. He was never as good as that year

Probably Sloan's best coaching job because he actually built around the players he had instead of putting players into his system. If you have an all star you can compete as they showed and as they've shown since Gobert emerged 5 plus years ago

How does Gobert factor into this discussion when he had Hayward and then Mitchell to play alongside with?

[XYY]

Because they sucked without Gobert just as that team would have without AK. You can win with a star.

[Reggie43]

Because they sucked without Gobert just as that team would have without AK. You can win with a star.

You dont consider Hayward and Mitchell stars?

[XYY]

Hayward was a star his last year in Utah. Mitchell isn't yet

[Akeem34TheDream]

Because they sucked without Gobert just as that team would have without AK. You can win with a star.

You have been out for a while. Were you banned?

[XYY]

lost password. won't let me recover

[Clifton]

Good thread. Threads like this are why I keep coming back here. All I see everywhere is discussion, highlights of Kobe, Lebron, Steph. This site is almost the only place you might see a thread with 5 people discussing someone like Antonio Daniels.


Any other team in history that played a similar way? Wherein they defied the odds despite having a roster of mostly unheralded players?
The Pacers after the Malice in the Palace. Lost their 3 best players for 15 games, their top scorer for the season. I remember James Jones starting games, which was never appropriate, even before he became just a character guy. They went 5-10 after the Malice, finished with 44 wins, lost in 6 in the second round. I remember it being damn respectable.

What team can lose its 3 best players at once and win 5 of 15 games? For comparison- and I know it's not fair because they're more top-heavy- the Warriors lost Steph, Klay, and KD and were immediately the worst team in the league. I suspect almost any other team would be as well.


Kirilenko was a star that year
Kirilenko was never a star. He was a Shawn Marion type, but way less reliable, even when healthy (which he almost never was)

[XYY]

He was certainly a star that year. Carried them on his back

That was a great coaching job by Carlisle

[Reggie43]

It was never my intention to imply that Kirilenko was not a star/allstar, he certainly was a defensive star with a good all around game but he was not your typical star that carries his team on his back offensively atleast. What I meant was with the personnel that they had they werent supposed to win that many games plus injuries to key players (harpring). Ak47 performed well but a bigger part of that was the players believing in Coach Sloan and his system and playing hard every night. A team that has Kirilenko, Arroyo, Ostertag, Raja and Deshawn Stevenson is just not a talented team collectively regardless of how well Kirilenko plays.

Kirilenko was my 2nd fave player ever behind Miller, too bad injuries took away what could have been a promising career.

[XYY]

Not sure we can blame the injuries. Deron said AK didn't stick around and work on his game. He did what he did just on pure talent. The greats put in lots of work. Also playing the 3 instead of the 4 hurt him.

[Reggie43]

Good thread. Threads like this are why I keep coming back here. All I see everywhere is discussion, highlights of Kobe, Lebron, Steph. This site is almost the only place you might see a thread with 5 people discussing someone like Antonio Daniels.


The Pacers after the Malice in the Palace. Lost their 3 best players for 15 games, their top scorer for the season. I remember James Jones starting games, which was never appropriate, even before he became just a character guy. They went 5-10 after the Malice, finished with 44 wins, lost in 6 in the second round. I remember it being damn respectable.

What team can lose its 3 best players at once and win 5 of 15 games? For comparison- and I know it's not fair because they're more top-heavy- the Warriors lost Steph, Klay, and KD and were immediately the worst team in the league. I suspect almost any other team would be as well.



What Rick Carlisle did for that Pacers team post brawl was insane. Undermanned due to injuries and suspensions and they still maintained a playoff seed til the others came back. The Joneses (Fred and James) had their moments due to the situation. I remember Fred dropping 31 points playing with an undermanned roster of 7-8 players i think and leading them to a win.

[Reggie43]

Not sure we can blame the injuries. Deron said AK didn't stick around and work on his game. He did what he did just on pure talent. The greats put in lots of work. Also playing the 3 instead of the 4 hurt him.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree but the insight is much appreciated especially with those modern jazz teams.

[Reggie43]

I tried searching for that 31point Fred Jones effort but they actually lost by 3 to a Grant Hill, Francis and Howard led Magic. Pacers played with just 6 players.

This was the game after the brawl.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200411200IND.html