Who is more talented - 96' Shaq/Penny or 20' Giannis/Middleton

[3ball]

I'm wondering who would be tougher to beat all else being equal

[NBAGOAT]

shaq/penny. ik what you're getting at but mil is clearly better outside their top 2 and middleton is a bit underrated. Magic had no depth and had just grant and shooters around which lead to an average defense. Mil goes ten deep with guys who can shoot/defend, why they're easily the best defense this year.

Ofc you wouldnt know about any of this since you dont watch the nba anymore and all you care about is individual scoring.

[Uncle Drew]

Talent isn't related to year, lol. You can't become more or less talented between years.

[Kblaze8855]

All else cant be equal because the leagues in question change how useful some people are. Giannis isnt shaq. But because of the style of play and rules hes more productive than 96 Shaq even before you consider he plays less minutes. 27/11/3 for Shaq in 36 minutes. Giannis does 30/14/6 in under 31 minutes a night. And hes probably the DPOY on top of it. Giannis in 2020 might be harder to stop than 1996 Shaq...because Shaqs league wasnt rigged to make guys unguardable. Giannis clearly doesnt have Shaqs playoff resume but comparing those years? We dont know what Giannis does...but Shaq got swept by the Bulls. But thats the Bulls. But he also got swept 2 of the next 3 years with a loss in 5 in the other year. Obviously if that happens to Giannis ISH will act like hes a hyped up Stacey Augmon or some shit. In 2020.....2020 Giannis may be a tougher opponent than 1996 Shaq...in 1996. Kinda like how Luka may not be better than say....Dirk. But when you make the league hands off and defenses spread out to guard the shooters? Second season Luka looks harder to defend than Dirk most of his career.

Its not about better.....better doesnt matter. There is no static situation to put them in. You are as effective as the situation allows. If rank Shaq over Giannis just as id rank Dirk over Luka. But in this ho assed league they can do the same things while not being better on a base level.


All that said....the Magic were more talented because Penny comes through and delivers the Clothesline from Hell:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AshamedCheerfulCardinal-size_restricted.gif


to anyone else on the Bucks. Penny was a lot better than his numbers while its hard to say most stars today are even as good as theirs. Middleton is really good....but asking about talent? Hes no Penny. Hes a pretty good scorer and shooter in a league that makes it easy to shine doing those things. Most of the Bucks arent that talented really. They are the new version of the first couple years the Warriors were great. People talking about being stacked off having one superstar and a gang of people who played really really well together. Chemistry doesnt make you stacked. It makes your team great. Those are not at all the same thing.

[Kblaze8855]

There have been stacked teams that didnt play well. Not all great teams are stacked. Stacked teams...super teams...whatever you call it? They have a bunch of guys who established who they were individually. Stars playing together. Middleton is a star....but hes not like a Penny...or a Wade...hes not a guy to make people ask "Who's team is this really?". Hes a great complimentary piece. Bledsoe is really good. Nobody gave a shit till the Bucks started playing well together. Ersan is talented. Hes also a 7ppg 16 minutes a night player. Lopez is good. Hes also a stretch big who shoots 29% from 3. Most of his value this year is defense and keeping opposing bigs out of the paint for Giannis. So its really valuable.....but doesnt make him individually special. We talking up Divinchenso or whatever that guys name is? I like George Hill as a role player...but ISH was telling me I was wrong to say giving him the ball open under the basket was a good idea in the finals. Like hes just ass and a lock to fail.

The Bucks are an MVP....a guy who on a normally performing team might be a career 2 time all star....and several high end role players one of which could likely do good numbers and win 28 games on his own team(Bledsoe). They arent a superteam. They play super basketball. Which is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more important. But asked about talent?



Talent and talent alone?


The Magic were more talented than the Bucks. Nick Anderson was their Bledsoe(20ppg on a losing team type) before he was forced into being the #3 or #4. Horace all things considered was better than Lopez is now. Dennis Scott played no D but hed likely be a 20ppg guy now just off all the shooting. He was a career 40% shooter from 3 and had his best scoring years before they moved the line in. The 12 threes in a game record that was Kobes for a while was Dennis Scotts before that(11).

That was a talented ass team. The Bucks probably play better as a team...which is what counts in the end.

Most talent?


Shaq might be the most talented big ever when you factor in the physical side(as you must). If he isnt hes on the short list. Penny was an all time talent.

Giannis is an all time talent.....Middleton is maybe a...Steve Smith talent? Middleton better shooter. Smith the better ball handler and playmaker. Similar levels of talent id say.

Then you have Anderson, Dennis, and Horace vs Bledsoe, Lopez, Ersan, and the hangers on from each?


The advantage at the top makes Orlando more talented to me.

Arguably a worse basketball team. But more talented.

[Phoenix]

Relative to their status in the league? Shaq and Penny were two top 5 players in 96 and a natural inside/out pairing when that was important. Giannis is a top 2 or whatever and Middleton? I don't know..... Top 20?

[Bronbron23]

Easily shaq and penny. Shaq was a little better than greek but penny was way better than Middleton

[StrongLurk]

20 Bucks > 96 Magic at this point in the year

[tpols]

shaq didnt do that well in the playoffs that year... i know you guys dont want to hear this but when you shoot 39% from the FT line and lead your team in TO's... it offsets that 60% FG. Penny was better than Shaq in that run.

[Phoenix]

Shaq didnt start the 96 season until Dec 15th. For the first 22 games of the season Penny was 26/7/5/2 50%, the team was 16-6 including a win over the Bulls early on when he outscored MJ 36-23. Whatever you think of Shaq 96 and current Giannis, Penny was comfortably a better player than Middleton.

[Bronbron23]

shaq didnt do that well in the playoffs that year... i know you guys dont want to hear this but when you shoot 39% from the FT line and lead your team in TO's... it offsets that 60% FG. Penny was better than Shaq in that run.

Not really. He shot 10 foul shots a game and hit 4 of them. Its a difference of a point and a half if he shoots his regular 50-55% rate. As far as his turnovers they werent much different than any great player. Bron, mj and greek all get around the same amount.

Plus penny is much better than middleton

[tpols]

Not really. He shot 10 foul shots a game and hit 4 of them. Its a difference of a point and a half if he shoots his regular 50-55% rate. As far as his turnovers they werent much different than any great player. Bron, mj and greek all get around the same amount.

Plus penny is much better than middleton

Penny had the ball in his hands a ton, had more dimes and signifigantly less TO's. 39% on 10+ FTA's a game is atrocious. Combined with the turnovers it's 7+ possessions a game just thrown away. And it's the main reason penny had way better efficiency on nearly identical offensive volume.

[Bronbron23]

Penny had the ball in his hands a ton, had more dimes and signifigantly less TO's. 39% on 10+ FTA's a game is atrocious. Combined with the turnovers it's 7+ possessions a game just thrown away. And it's the main reason penny had way better efficiency on nearly identical offensive volume.

Right but you cant really look at that way because every great throws away possessions. Lebron is the greatest player in the world. He still gets around 3.5 turn overs a game and shoots about 70 from the field so if shot 10 foul shots a game like shaq hed be throwing away 6.5 possessions a game which is only 1 less than shaq. You could do this for mj and almost anyone also.

It sounds bad by itself but relative to others and even himself when he was dominating and winning chips it isn't. At his best he probably averaged 3 turnovers a game and around 55% from the line. Thats only about a half of a possession difference and 1.5 pts on foul shots. Its really not that significant although its not absolutely nothing either.