Replace 2000-2002 Kobe with 2013-2015 Kawhi

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Replace 2000-2002 Kobe with Kawhi 2013-15

2013 Kawhi replaces Kobe in 2000 and only has to average 15PPG in finals. Kawhi 2013 led spurs in minutes during the finals, he also outplayed Curry in the 2nd round. Shaq gets a much better rebounder in Kawhi and defender, while Shaq can still average his 38PPG in finals. Kawhi might even explode offensively in these finals instead of the next year. Shaq is coming off the GOAT center season and is getting all the attention.

2014 Kawhi replaces Kobe in 2001. That was the year they lap the competition because Kobe improved. Well Kawhi improved as well (see finals mvp). Kawhi also led spurs in GmSc during two different series in 2014, so he would provide plenty of 2nd option help. Phil Jackson would develop Kawhi even quicker then Greg Pop I would imagine as well.

2015 kawhi replaces Kobe in 2002 and gives him 16-20PPG with DPOTY defense. This is the year Shaq had a +22.1 offensive rating ON/OFF and had Kobe shooting like shit vs Kings. I find it hard to believe 2015 Kawhi wouldn't be enough for 2002 Shaq which is arguably Shaq's greatest run and the GOAT center playoff run. 2015 Duncan was on his last legs and was more like Heat Shaq, so young Kawhi has a massive upgrade as his veteran star teammate.

[NBAGOAT]

come on man this stanning is a bit ridiculous. yes 01 kobe only scored 15ppg in the finals, he had to score 20 to squeak by portland the closest of margins. Kawhi likely has a lot more trouble vs pippen at that point in his career. Exploding offensively in the Finals is baseless specculation when he had role player scoring in 2013.

14 kawhi as nice as he is doesnt compare to 01 kobe. "Plenty of second option help" was 14ppg while kobe was putting up 28. playing on a less well rounded team does mean he score more but he's not scoring close to 28. It's possible lakers win a title because they breezed through the playoff but they're not going close 15-1.

Shaq did have a great run in 02 but the kings series was as close as it gets. any dropoff from kobe is enough to lose and I see an obvious one here too though kawhi was very good in 2015. The 2015 duncan point is meaningless, the spurs were built far differently from the lakers with all time depth. as many people here like to say though I think it gets a bit overstated, you also cant really transport kawhi's efficiency in 2015 to 2002.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

come on man this stanning is a bit ridiculous. yes 01 kobe only scored 15ppg in the finals, he had to score 20 to squeak by portland the closest of margins. Kawhi likely has a lot more trouble vs pippen at that point in his career. Exploding offensively in the Finals is baseless specculation when he had role player scoring in 2013.

14 kawhi as nice as he is doesnt compare to 01 kobe. "Plenty of second option help" was 14ppg while kobe was putting up 28. playing on a less well rounded team does mean he score more but he's not scoring close to 28. It's possible lakers win a title because they breezed through the playoff but they're not going close 15-1.

Shaq did have a great run in 02 but the kings series was as close as it gets. any dropoff from kobe is enough to lose and I see an obvious one here too though kawhi was very good in 2015. The 2015 duncan point is meaningless, the spurs were built far differently from the lakers with all time depth. as many people here like to say though I think it gets a bit overstated, you also cant really transport kawhi's efficiency in 2015 to 2002.

The upgrade of washed up Duncan to peak Shaq is not something you just quickly overlook. Kawhi would of benefited from all the attention Shaq received. 2013 Duncan didn't demand double teams anymore. The spurs offense in 2013 playoffs was 112.5 with Duncan OFF court and 107.3 with Duncan ON court.

I don't see blazers beating Kawhi/Shaq, they were due to choke after all. Kawhi was a goat level defender these years and Shaq is a goat level offensive player, you pair them together? You get titles. Its similar to Jordan/Pippen. Also with Phil Jackson in charge and Kawhi in the triangle? Kawhi's offense would most likely thrive at even faster pace.

2001 they may not wipe the floor with a 15-1 record but without question win the title. Washed up and dysfunctional blazers, 1 man team in 76ers/Spurs will not cut it.

2002 vs kings Kobe shot terrible. All Kawhi has to do is shoot halfway decent and they win the series. Shaq was the one doing all the work.

[SouBeachTalents]

The upgrade of washed up Duncan to peak Shaq is not something you just quickly overlook. Kawhi would of benefited from all the attention Shaq received. 2013 Duncan didn't demand double teams anymore. The spurs offense in 2013 playoffs was 112.5 with Duncan OFF court and 107.3 with Duncan ON court.

I don't see blazers beating Kawhi/Shaq, they were due to choke after all. Kawhi was a goat level defender these years and Shaq is a goat level offensive player, you pair them together? You get titles. Its similar to Jordan/Pippen. Also with Phil Jackson in charge and Kawhi in the triangle? Kawhi's offense would most likely thrive at even faster pace.

2001 they may not wipe the floor with a 15-1 record but without question win the title. Washed up and dysfunctional blazers, 1 man team in Nets/Spurs will not cut it.

2002 vs kings Kobe shot terrible. All Kawhi has to do is shoot halfway decent and they win the series. Shaq was the one doing all the work.
Any upgrade Kawhi provides defensively would be met with a significant downgrade in scoring & playmaking. '13-'15 Kawhi would be a significant downgrade from Kobe in those facets. You want to argue post '16 Kawhi wins in his place you'd have no argument from me, but not these versions

[Doranku]

Yeah I don't think the Lakers are 3 peating with zero playmakers. :oldlol: People don't remember how much those Laker teams relied on Kobe breaking down defenses off the dribble and creating. Kawhi has improved that facet of his game, but it was basically nonexistent 2013-2015.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Any upgrade Kawhi provides defensively would be met with a significant downgrade in scoring & playmaking. '13-'15 Kawhi would be a significant downgrade from Kobe in those facets. You want to argue post '16 Kawhi wins in his place you'd have no argument from me, but not these versions

Kawhi was a goat level wing defender and spurs were 3rd best d with him and 13th best without him in 2014 playoffs. In 2000 Shaq averaged 38PPG to Kobe's 15PPG, in 2002 for the entire playoffs Shaq had a +22.1 offensive rating ON/OFF. Shaq was carrying the shit out of the offense in 2000/2002. Add to that a goat level defender like Kawhi who is also capable of having scoring bursts? Its over.

[SATAN]

I don't understand why this guy wasted time making another account to pull this gimmick. It's seriously lame as ****. Not even interesting.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah I don't think the Lakers are 3 peating with zero playmakers. :oldlol: People don't remember how much those Laker teams relied on Kobe breaking down defenses off the dribble and creating. Kawhi has improved that facet of his game, but it was basically nonexistent 2013-2015.

2000 and 2002 shaq was doing some pretty heavy lifting. 2002 the offense sucked with Shaq off the court, 2000 Shaq was averaging 38PPG to Kobe's 2015. And by 2002 Shaq is getting the 16-20PPG Kawhi. 2001 they may not dominate as much but I don't see them losing a series either. 2001 Drob was like 2014 Wade and look what Kawhi did to Lebron/Wade that year, I'm sure he does the same to Duncan/Drob in 2001/2002..

[NBAGOAT]

The upgrade of washed up Duncan to peak Shaq is not something you just quickly overlook. Kawhi would of benefited from all the attention Shaq received. 2013 Duncan didn't demand double teams anymore. The spurs offense in 2013 playoffs was 112.5 with Duncan OFF court and 107.3 with Duncan ON court.

I don't see blazers beating Kawhi/Shaq, they were due to choke after all. Kawhi was a goat level defender these years and Shaq is a goat level offensive player, you pair them together? You get titles. Its similar to Jordan/Pippen. Also with Phil Jackson in charge and Kawhi in the triangle? Kawhi's offense would most likely thrive at even faster pace.

2001 they may not wipe the floor with a 15-1 record but without question win the title. Washed up and dysfunctional blazers, 1 man team in 76ers/Spurs will not cut it.

2002 vs kings Kobe shot terrible. All Kawhi has to do is shoot halfway decent and they win the series. Shaq was the one doing all the work.

i'm not overlooking shaq's edge. just pointing out you're trying to say shaq>duncan means lakers>spurs and that's just a terrible arguments. The lakers are one of the most top heavy teams of all team and barely went 6 deep in the playoffs with truly no 3rd option(unlike say the Bulls as 3ball claims), the spurs were one of the deepest title teams ever. they played 9 guys 15+min in the playoffs, it's unheard of. the on/off stats are stronger evidence of how good the depth is not how good kawhi was.

As Doranku and Sou said kobe's playmaking which has always been a bit underrated is a huge advantage over kawhi and in general you need playmaking from your wings in the triangle, the point guard is there mostly to spot up. Young kawhi was not a playmaker at all, classic play finisher with extra shot making ability. this is the first year he's even been a strong playmaker.

[Phoenix]

Kawhi is just now coming into his own as a playmaker, but still isn't at the level Kobe was in that regard. Or as a scorer in the years we're talking about. Kawhi's defensive edge doesn't negate Kobe's clear scoring/facilitating advantage. It's not like Kobe was a slouch defensively those years either. Kawhi as a scorer was much more of a slow-burner and popping him into 2000 doesn't change that. Kobe always had more natural scoring ability. Phil is even on record as saying he never put as much responsibility on one of his perimeter guys to volume score+ facilitate like he did Kobe. And this is a guy who had MJ at his peak.

I like Kawhi but, between Cowherd's take and these kinds of posts....this is getting a bit silly.

[ImKobe]

Kobe was the playmaker and the closer for the Lakers. 13-15 Kawhi didn't have the ability to do either.

lol @ "has to only average 15 ppg in the Finals", Kobe actually averaged ~20 ppg in the full games he played, his averages are skewed due to injuring his ankle and leaving in the 1st quarter of that game and playing the rest of the series on one leg. No way does a 2013 Kawhi do what Kobe did in the WCF to even get to the Finals.

Idk why I even bother responding to autistic trolls anymore, but here I am.

[RRR3]

Kobe was the playmaker and the closer for the Lakers. 13-15 Kawhi didn't have the ability to do either.

lol @ "has to only average 15 ppg in the Finals", Kobe actually averaged ~20 ppg in the full games he played, his averages are skewed due to injuring his ankle and leaving in the 1st quarter of that game and playing the rest of the series on one leg. No way does a 2013 Kawhi do what Kobe did in the WCF to even get to the Finals.

Idk why I even bother responding to autistic trolls anymore, but here I am.
OP legit thinks Kawhi>Kareem :lol

[tpols]

They would've lost to portland handily.

[tpols]

Kawhi averaged 11 and 12 ppg in 2013 and 2014. He didn't become a give that guy the ball and get out of the way until 2016 or 2017... so in this hypothetical he wouldnt have even been the 2nd option. Glen Rice would have at 16 ppg. Anybody that watched that version of kawhi knows he couldnt dribble or pass well. The spurs had and old tony parker and manu doing all the creation up top. Leonard did have an awesome shooting, rebounding, and defense game but the lakers needed an elite initiator, passer and ballhandler to run the triangle on the outside. Kawhi couldnt do that back then.

[Whoah10115]

If you put peak Kawhi they still don't win in either 2000 or 2002.

That's what it is.

[Shogon]

If you put peak Kawhi they still don't win in either 2000 or 2002.

That's what it is.

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

i'm not overlooking shaq's edge. just pointing out you're trying to say shaq>duncan means lakers>spurs and that's just a terrible arguments. The lakers are one of the most top heavy teams of all team and barely went 6 deep in the playoffs with truly no 3rd option(unlike say the Bulls as 3ball claims), the spurs were one of the deepest title teams ever. they played 9 guys 15+min in the playoffs, it's unheard of. the on/off stats are stronger evidence of how good the depth is not how good kawhi was.

As Doranku and Sou said kobe's playmaking which has always been a bit underrated is a huge advantage over kawhi and in general you need playmaking from your wings in the triangle, the point guard is there mostly to spot up. Young kawhi was not a playmaker at all, classic play finisher with extra shot making ability. this is the first year he's even been a strong playmaker.

But spurs in 2001 and 2002 were a terrible 1 man team on offense. Spurs in 2001 series put up a 90 offensive rating. Now throw a defender like Kawhi in there? It gets even more ugly for Spurs.

2002 spurs put up a 99.8 offensive rating vs Lakers in playoffs. That's good for 27th ranked. Adding 2015 defensive player of the year to that? They are finished.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kobe was the playmaker and the closer for the Lakers. 13-15 Kawhi didn't have the ability to do either.

lol @ "has to only average 15 ppg in the Finals", Kobe actually averaged ~20 ppg in the full games he played, his averages are skewed due to injuring his ankle and leaving in the 1st quarter of that game and playing the rest of the series on one leg. No way does a 2013 Kawhi do what Kobe did in the WCF to even get to the Finals.

Idk why I even bother responding to autistic trolls anymore, but here I am.

It still translated to 15PPG, injury or not. Lakers even won a game in 2000 finals with Kobe playing like 10 minutes.

[NBAGOAT]

Well the spurs weren’t the big lakers threat. The kings in 02 were

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi averaged 11 and 12 ppg in 2013 and 2014. He didn't become a give that guy the ball and get out of the way until 2016 or 2017... so in this hypothetical he wouldnt have even been the 2nd option. Glen Rice would have at 16 ppg. Anybody that watched that version of kawhi knows he couldnt dribble or pass well. The spurs had and old tony parker and manu doing all the creation up top. Leonard did have an awesome shooting, rebounding, and defense game but the lakers needed an elite initiator, passer and ballhandler to run the triangle on the outside. Kawhi couldnt do that back then.

2000 wasn't like that at all, though. Phil Jackson came to Lakers because of one guy only and that's Shaq. Phil was impressed by Shaq in 1995 when he beat the bulls. Phil said he built the offense strictly around Shaq. To give you a modern day example, 2000 Shaq is basically 2020 Giannis and 2000 Kobe was Middleton.

2001 is when Derek Fisher had an excellent playoff run as the 3rd wheel. He put up 16 and 17PPG in the blazers/spurs series on outstanding efficiency. Also take in consideration that 2014 Kawhi starts coming into his own, he led spurs in GmSc in multiple series that year.

2015 Kawhi is already an all-star and borderline all nba player.

Kawhi makes up for it with the efficiency/defense gap. Kawhi would also benefit from the triangle and his offensive would blossom. Also Kawhi has never came close to playing with a player like 00-02 Shaq.

[LAmbruh]

definitely take Kawhi over Kobe in any situation

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If you put peak Kawhi they still don't win in either 2000 or 2002.

That's what it is.

Kawhi led raptors to a top 3 offense and defense all the way to the title with Lowry/Siakam. Suddenly peak Shaq isn't going to be enough for him? Laughable claim. You're just jealous of Kawhi because he did in 1 year with Raptors that Ewing couldn't do his entire career with Knicks. Its not Kawhi's fault that Ewing in the playoffs couldn't cut the mustard.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Well the spurs weren’t the big lakers threat. The kings in 02 were

Kobe had terrible efficiency during that Kings series and Lakers still won. The problem for Lakers that series was also defense, this is when Kawhi comes into play.

[ImKobe]

It still translated to 15PPG, injury or not. Lakers even won a game in 2000 finals with Kobe playing like 10 minutes.

Lakers don't make the Finals if you replace '00 Kobe with '13 Kawhi lol.

[34-24 Footwork]

The idea that 95% of this forum believe that Kobe averaged 15ppg in the 2000 finals "just because" is interesting.

If Jalen Rose does what he did to Kobe in Indiana to Kawhi, Kawhi doesn't return til next season and load manages the rest of his career.

[Whoah10115]

Kawhi led raptors to a top 3 offense and defense all the way to the title with Lowry/Siakam. Suddenly peak Shaq isn't going to be enough for him? Laughable claim. You're just jealous of Kawhi because he did in 1 year with Raptors that Ewing couldn't do his entire career with Knicks. Its not Kawhi's fault that Ewing in the playoffs couldn't cut the mustard.

Yes.

That's exactly what it is.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lakers don't make the Finals if you replace '00 Kobe with '13 Kawhi lol.

Kobe gave Lakers 20/5/6 on 55% TS vs blazers in 2000

Kawhi put up 15/11 on 58% TS vs Heat in 2013

An extra 5PPG on 3% worse TS. Also don't forget Kawhi's offense improves under the triangle and next to prime Shaq.

[LAmbruh]

Kobe gave Lakers 20/5/6 on 55% TS vs blazers in 2000

Kawhi put up 15/11 on 58% TS vs Heat in 2013

An extra 5PPG on 3% worse TS. Also don't forget Kawhi's offense improves under the triangle and next to prime Shaq.

:applause:

[ImKobe]

The idea that 95% of this forum believe that Kobe averaged 15ppg in the 2000 finals "just because" is interesting.

If Jalen Rose does what he did to Kobe in Indiana to Kawhi, Kawhi doesn't return til next season and load manages the rest of his career.

Zaza basically did the same thing to Kawhi, he missed the rest of the WCF and missed all but 8 games of the following season. Kobe came back and won a Finals game on the road with Shaq fouled out.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The idea that 95% of this forum believe that Kobe averaged 15ppg in the 2000 finals "just because" is interesting.

If Jalen Rose does what he did to Kobe in Indiana to Kawhi, Kawhi doesn't return til next season and load manages the rest of his career.

Now if you want to argue health, that's fine. Kawhi never even missed 1 game during the 2013/2014 finals runs though.

I'm not pointing out the 15PPG to knock on Kobe. I'm pointing it out to show how dominating Shaq was and how he can win finals series without much scoring from Kobe.

[LAmbruh]

damn, and I thought 16-6 was embarrassing


https://i.postimg.cc/43KcrgpW/fjkdgykdtgyk.png


yikes

[tpols]

To give you a modern day example, 2000 Shaq is basically 2020 Giannis and 2000 Kobe was Middleton.

No... it wasn't like that at all. Kobe was not a spacer 3 pt shooter and Shaq didnt play on the perimeter like Giannis. To even compare '01 peak playoff kobe to kris middleton would get you slapped in real life. They ran totally different offenses and were totally different player types. If anything Kobe was like a super pippen... had the same dribbling and playmaking skill but with superstar scoring on top... both running their roles in the triangle as primary ball handler. Middleton and baby kawhi werent dribblers or passers. They couldnt fill that role and didnt on their own teams even (Bucks, Spurs)



2001 is when Derek Fisher had an excellent playoff run as the 3rd wheel. He put up 16 and 17PPG

That hurts your point even more. When Derek Fisher was literally outscoring a young Kawhi, you know Lakers have no chance of winning. Shaq has never won without a superstar guard and young leonard wasn't even close to one.

I hype efficiency more than anybody but i do it apples to apples similar volume. Kawhi was a 12 PPG player when Kobe was doing 30 on 116 ORTG. It's not even remotely close.

[ImKobe]

Kobe gave Lakers 20/5/6 on 55% TS vs blazers in 2000

Kawhi put up 15/11 on 58% TS vs Heat in 2013

An extra 5PPG on 3% worse TS. Also don't forget Kawhi's offense improves under the triangle and next to prime Shaq.

Kobe was the leading playmaker and closer for the Lakers in those Playoffs and that series, 2013 Kawhi wasn't capable of doing such things. Kobe was also the 2nd option while Kawhi was 3rd/4th for the Spurs and played in a different era, so I doubt he would even score the 14.6 ppg he did in 2013 with a slower pace and less spacing and with Pippen checking him.

[ImKobe]

OP is clearly a Simon alt and legitimately autistic, we're done here.

[imdaman99]

Kobe was elite defensively back then too. Was he DPOY? Prob not but he was a great defender. Kawhi was not special those years. He has become great since though.

[Doranku]

Kobe gave Lakers 20/5/6 on 55% TS vs blazers in 2000

Kawhi put up 15/11 on 58% TS vs Heat in 2013

An extra 5PPG on 3% worse TS. Also don't forget Kawhi's offense improves under the triangle and next to prime Shaq.


Kobe had 41 assists against the Blazers in 2000. Kawhi had 22 assists the entire 2013 playoffs. :oldlol: 2013 Kawhi's offense is certainly NOT improving if he's expected to be the primary facilitator for the triangle.

[Phoenix]

Why is efficiency even being brought up in this discussion? Are we acting like early 2000s defense and post 2004 defense, and especially defenses of the last half a dozen years or more, are *remotely* comparable? Why is it also a given as to what Kawhi develops into on the Lakers? Kawhi wasn't a high volume scorer in 2013 and 14( under perimeter friendly rules) and there's no reason to think his efficiency is better in 2001 or his scoring output.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

damn, and I thought 16-6 was embarrassing


https://i.postimg.cc/43KcrgpW/fjkdgykdtgyk.png


yikes

Kobe couldn't even hit 40% FG and is shooting 11% worse then Kawhi. Not sure what that proves.

[Phoenix]

Kobe had 41 assists against the Blazers in 2000. Kawhi had 22 assists the entire 2013 playoffs. :oldlol: 2013 Kawhi's offense is certainly NOT improving if he's expected to be the primary facilitator for the triangle.

Kahwi 9 years into his career is only now developing decent passing instincts. This is after coming up under the tutelege of Gregg Poppovich. 2013 Kawhi was not at the level as either a ballhandler or passer to assume the lead guard role in the triangle, never mind the mental gymnastics of figuring how what he does as a scorer back then.

[34-24 Footwork]

Now if you want to argue health, that's fine. Kawhi never even missed 1 game during the 2013/2014 finals runs though.

I'm not pointing out the 15PPG to knock on Kobe. I'm pointing it out to show how dominating Shaq was and how he can win finals series without much scoring from Kobe.

Lol. Nah. It's ok, bro. You didn't know. There are guys in their 40's on here like Southbeachtalent who didn't know that Kobe was injured in 2000 until I brought it up. You probably looked at b-ball reference, opened up a few tabs, and compared some numbers like every other nerd on here. So that's that.

The fact that you guys plug and play with numbers cross different eras, different positions, rules, and styles of the play tells me all that I need to know.

Basketball, like Boxing, isn't played on paper through mathematical computations. It involves real human beings and context. But by all means, keep doing what you're doing.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No... it wasn't like that at all. Kobe was not a spacer 3 pt shooter and Shaq didnt play on the perimeter like Giannis. To even compare '01 peak playoff kobe to kris middleton would get you slapped in real life. They ran totally different offenses and were totally different player types. If anything Kobe was like a super pippen... had the same dribbling and playmaking skill but with superstar scoring on top... both running their roles in the triangle as primary ball handler. Middleton and baby kawhi werent dribblers or passers. They couldnt fill that role and didnt on their own teams even (Bucks, Spurs)




That hurts your point even more. When Derek Fisher was literally outscoring a young Kawhi, you know Lakers have no chance of winning. Shaq has never won without a superstar guard and young leonard wasn't even close to one.

I hype efficiency more than anybody but i do it apples to apples similar volume. Kawhi was a 12 PPG player when Kobe was doing 30 on 116 ORTG. It's not even remotely close.

I said 2000 Shaq/Kobe was similar to Giannis/Middelton, I never said 2001.

Lets pull up the stats:

Middleton in 2019 playoffs: 17PPG on 57% TS and 4 assists per game

Kobe in 2000 playoffs: 21PPG on 52% TS and 4 assists a game

Looks like similar tier stats to me. Does 2001 Kobe improve? Yes but so does 2014 Kawhi when he won finals MVP and led spurs in GmSc in the 2nd round as well.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lol. Nah. It's ok, bro. You didn't know. There are guys in their 40's on here like Southbeachtalent who didn't know that Kobe was injured in 2000 until I brought it up. You probably looked at b-ball reference, opened up a few tabs, and compared some numbers like every other nerd on here. So that's that.

The fact that you guys plug and play with numbers cross different eras, different positions, rules, and styles of the play tells me all that I need to know.

Basketball, like Boxing, isn't played on paper through mathematical computations. It involves real human beings and context. But by all means, keep doing what you're doing.
Why is this fakkit always making shit up, I'm in my 40's now :oldlol:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kobe was the leading playmaker and closer for the Lakers in those Playoffs and that series, 2013 Kawhi wasn't capable of doing such things. Kobe was also the 2nd option while Kawhi was 3rd/4th for the Spurs and played in a different era, so I doubt he would even score the 14.6 ppg he did in 2013 with a slower pace and less spacing and with Pippen checking him.

Shaq was by far the best scorer and received all the attention, so he was actually Lakers best playmaker. Why you think Fisher was going off in 2001? It's all because Shaq's presence.

Similar to Pippen getting more assists then Jordan. But most people will agree that Jordan was still a better playmaker then Pippen due to the attention he receives.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kahwi 9 years into his career is only now developing decent passing instincts. This is after coming up under the tutelege of Gregg Poppovich. 2013 Kawhi was not at the level as either a ballhandler or passer to assume the lead guard role in the triangle, never mind the mental gymnastics of figuring how what he does as a scorer back then.

1st of all, kawhi was averaging 5 assists in playoff series as far back as 2017.

2nd of all, the offense will not be as depended on because Kawhi is a superior defender over Kobe.

Kawhi's defense + Shaq's offense = rings

Not to mention that Shaq was dominating defensively in the 2001 playoff run as well. Shaq/Kawhi duo is scary.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lol. Nah. It's ok, bro. You didn't know. There are guys in their 40's on here like Southbeachtalent who didn't know that Kobe was injured in 2000 until I brought it up. You probably looked at b-ball reference, opened up a few tabs, and compared some numbers like every other nerd on here. So that's that.

The fact that you guys plug and play with numbers cross different eras, different positions, rules, and styles of the play tells me all that I need to know.

Basketball, like Boxing, isn't played on paper through mathematical computations. It involves real human beings and context. But by all means, keep doing what you're doing.

So Kobe misses time during the 2000 finals. Kawhi never misses any time during the 2013/14 finals runs. Yet your argument is injury? Just not buying it.

[Whoah10115]

You need to learn a bit.

Kobe 9 years into his career (out of high school and two seasons of the bench) is a greater player than Kawhi after 5 more years.

Comparing Kawhi Leonard to freaking Kobe Bryant.


Thread is done.

[Phoenix]

1st of all, kawhi was averaging 5 assists in playoff series as far back as 2017.

2nd of all, the offense will not be as depended on because Kawhi is a superior defender over Kobe.

Kawhi's defense + Shaq's offense = rings

Not to mention that Shaq was dominating defensively in the 2001 playoff run as well. Shaq/Kawhi duo is scary.

So it took 7 years for him to put up the same kind of assist numbers that Kobe was doing after 4 years in an offense that deflates individual assist numbers. Not a strong argument.

2nd, Kobe was first team all-NBA defense in 2000. The difference between their defense is smaller than the difference between their respective offensive games. And you're undervaluing the offensive aspect of it specifically because you know 2013 Kawhi doesn't measure up there. 2000 Kobe was much more refined as an all-around player and that becomes even more the case in 2001.

[tpols]

Why is efficiency even being brought up in this discussion? Are we acting like early 2000s defense and post 2004 defense, and especially defenses of the last half a dozen years or more, are *remotely* comparable? Why is it also a given as to what Kawhi develops into on the Lakers? Kawhi wasn't a high volume scorer in 2013 and 14( under perimeter friendly rules) and there's no reason to think his efficiency is better in 2001 or his scoring output.

it's not even only that... he's comparing 29 ppg player to 12 ppg. You simply cant compare efficiency on double triple volume deficit. If it was 29 to 24 or 25 or something a concession could be made but the former is just a downright disingenuous analysis.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No... it wasn't like that at all. Kobe was not a spacer 3 pt shooter and Shaq didnt play on the perimeter like Giannis. To even compare '01 peak playoff kobe to kris middleton would get you slapped in real life. They ran totally different offenses and were totally different player types. If anything Kobe was like a super pippen... had the same dribbling and playmaking skill but with superstar scoring on top... both running their roles in the triangle as primary ball handler. Middleton and baby kawhi werent dribblers or passers. They couldnt fill that role and didnt on their own teams even (Bucks, Spurs)




That hurts your point even more. When Derek Fisher was literally outscoring a young Kawhi, you know Lakers have no chance of winning. Shaq has never won without a superstar guard and young leonard wasn't even close to one.

I hype efficiency more than anybody but i do it apples to apples similar volume. Kawhi was a 12 PPG player when Kobe was doing 30 on 116 ORTG. It's not even remotely close.

Also another response to the bold. Quote from February of 2019 season: Entering Tuesday, Milwaukee Bucks superstar Giannis Antetokounmpo has 217 dunks on the season. The Greek Freak has dunked more than seven other teams this season and is on pace to break the single-season dunk record, according to Alex Boeder of Bucks.com"

So much for always playing on the wing lol

[34-24 Footwork]

Why is this fakkit always making shit up, I'm in my 40's now :oldlol:

Just wanted to let the guy know that he isn't alone when it comes to basketball reference and acontextual assessments. He was trying to separate himself from nerds like you, but rest assured, all of you guys are the same.

Hope this helps.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So it took 7 years for him to put up the same kind of assist numbers that Kobe was doing after 4 years in an offense that deflates individual assist numbers. Not a strong argument.

2nd, Kobe was first team all-NBA in 2000. The difference between their defense is smaller than the difference between their respective offensive games. And they're undervaluing the offensive aspect of it specifically because you know 2013 Kawhi doesn't measure up there. 2000 Kobe was much more refined as an all-around player and that becomes even more the case in 2001.

My argument is that Kawhi/Shaq still win rings. I'm not saying they do it in as dominating fashion as 2001 lakers but they still get the job done.

Kawhi by 2014 was already a defensive player of the year level player. He didn't get the attention yet because spurs are boring and everybody assumed it was just Duncan again.

Lakers offense wouldn't be as dependent on Kobe's play making because Kawhi's defense. Do you see Kobe shutting down a player like LeBron? The defense gap is massive.

[SouBeachTalents]

Just wanted to let the guy know that he isn't alone when it comes to basketball reference and acontextual assessments. He was trying to separate himself from nerds like you, but rest assured, all of you guys are the same.

Hope this helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4MEgj7ptU4

[Horatio33]

I don't know what's funnier, the obsessed Kawhi Leonard fan crowbaring his idol into every great player discussion by using statistics as he's never watched basketball, or Kobe stans falling for his pathetic ruse. Ignore OP. He will go away.

[Phoenix]

My argument is that Kawhi/Shaq still win rings. I'm not saying they do it in as dominating fashion as 2001 lakers but they still get the job done.

Kawhi by 2014 was already a defensive player of the year level player. He didn't get the attention yet because spurs are boring and everybody assumed it was just Duncan again.

Lakers offense wouldn't be as dependent on Kobe's play making because Kawhi's defense. Do you see Kobe shutting down a player like LeBron? The defense gap is massive.

Again, Kobe was an all-nba defender in 2000. 2013 Kawhi may be a better solo defender and you'd have a point if Kobe was shit defensively but he wasn't. He was more than a good enough defender and that's coupled with his offensive advantages, which you're underplaying for obvious reasons. The Lakers offense was still an important part of that teams identity and the triangle needed a proficient ball-handler/passer as the lead guard who could also drop 20ppg+ and play solid defense, not a robotic, offensively raw 12 ppg defender that could barely get 2 assists a game like 2013 Kawhi.

[Akeem34TheDream]

I don't know what's funnier, the obsessed Kawhi Leonard fan crowbaring his idol into every great player discussion by using statistics as he's never watched basketball, or Kobe stans falling for his pathetic ruse. Ignore OP. He will go away.

Well, they are stans. They cant help but argue. One of them only makes posts whenever someone disses Kobe. Like its a personal attack for him.

[tpols]

Also another response to the bold. Quote from February of 2019 season: Entering Tuesday, Milwaukee Bucks superstar Giannis Antetokounmpo has 217 dunks on the season. The Greek Freak has dunked more than seven other teams this season and is on pace to break the single-season dunk record, according to Alex Boeder of Bucks.com"

So much for always playing on the wing lol

Dude... you are seriously... seriously exposing yourself as a clown. And I'm close to a kawhi stan.

Giannis starts possesions from the top with a live dribble... yes he dunks a lot... after dribbling and running to the rim from the perimeter. Shaq... eh, **** it. No point in explaining further to you.

[Phoenix]

Well, they are stans. They cant help but argue.

Or you could have just watched Kobe in 2001 and think replacing him with 2013 or 2014 Kawhi is a joke, without stanning. That version of Kawhi was still a role player, albeit a very good one. 2001 Kobe was a top 3 level player by the end of that season.

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol. There's a strange subset of nba 'fans' who still try to disrespect Kobe even AFTER his death. Strange times we're in, for sure.

[LAmbruh]

damn, and I thought 16-6 was embarrassing


https://i.postimg.cc/43KcrgpW/fjkdgykdtgyk.png


yikes

still can't believe Kobe never won a single game against baby Kawhi, damn

[34-24 Footwork]

Or you could have just watched Kobe in 2001 and think replacing him with 2013 or 2014 Kawhi is a joke, without stanning. That version of Kawhi was still a role player, albeit a very good one. 2001 Kobe was a top 3 level player by the end of that season.

Pretty much this. The idea that anyone siding with Kobe in this scenario is a 'stan' is laughable.

People that watched hoops in the early 2000s know what's up. No way Kawhi (let alone Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Penny or etc) replaces Kobe just because Shaq was dominant

[Uncle Drew]

Lol. There's a strange subset of nba 'fans' who still try to disrespect Kobe even AFTER his death. Strange times we're in, for sure.

You can't be critical of someone after they have passed away? Such nonsense. His death was a tragedy, but it doesn't take anything away, nor does it add anything, to his career.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Or you could have just watched Kobe in 2001 and think replacing him with 2013 or 2014 Kawhi is a joke, without stanning. That version of Kawhi was still a role player, albeit a very good one. 2001 Kobe was a top 3 level player by the end of that season.

BRO OF COURSE THIS THREAD IS A JOKE. Op is a troll. A few months later when Clippers win the title(they will) he will compare Kawhi to peak mj.

[scuzzy]

You can't be critical of someone after they have passed away? Such nonsense. His death was a tragedy, but it doesn't take anything away, nor does it add anything, to his career.
:oldlol:

Chamberlaine has been getting ridiculed for decades

What a awkward feminin take

[Uncle Drew]

:oldlol:

Chamberlaine has been getting ridiculed for decades

What a awkward feminin take

I guess Hitler is a saint now, but dead for a while 'ey.

[scuzzy]

I guess Hitler is a saint now, but dead for a while 'ey.
it's been ___ years since Kobe retired and his name is brought up on a NBA forum still :cry:

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol @ bringing up Adolf in order to reach for a point. Yikes. Stick to basketball reference and VORP.

Half of you clowns were still going in on Kobe the day he died. It speaks to the odd realities that some of you live in where you guys really believe in superheroes and villains and shit :lol

But go forth - open up some new tabs and crunch some numbers.

[LAmbruh]

damn, 6-24 Footfetish having a full blown meltdown



dem Lakers scrimmage W's be hittin hard



hang in there little guy

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Again, Kobe was an all-nba defender in 2000. 2013 Kawhi may be a better solo defender and you'd have a point if Kobe was shit defensively but he wasn't. He was more than a good enough defender and that's coupled with his offensive advantages, which you're underplaying for obvious reasons. The Lakers offense was still an important part of that teams identity and the triangle needed a proficient ball-handler/passer as the lead guard who could also drop 20ppg+ and play solid defense, not a robotic, offensively raw 12 ppg defender that could barely get 2 assists a game like 2013 Kawhi.

Yeah and 2000 Kobe put up 15PPG in the finals, Kawhi 2013 put up 15/11 in the finals with much better defense. Kawhi's scoring also would increase next to all the attention that Shaq gets.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Dude... you are seriously... seriously exposing yourself as a clown. And I'm close to a kawhi stan.

Giannis starts possesions from the top with a live dribble... yes he dunks a lot... after dribbling and running to the rim from the perimeter. Shaq... eh, **** it. No point in explaining further to you.

You called a guy a wing player who breaks records for most dunks, yet I'm the clown.

Giannis game is ultimately all about what he does in the paint, the guy can't shoot for shit. Him and Shaq are similar because they both dunk a lot, they just have different ways of doing it.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

still can't believe Kobe never won a single game against baby Kawhi, damn

Yeah that should shut some people up in this thread. And shaq 2000-2002 was even a better offensive player then young Duncan, let alone old Duncan who Shaq runs laps around. Kawhi would benefit from playing with prime Shaq instead of old Duncan.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lol. There's a strange subset of nba 'fans' who still try to disrespect Kobe even AFTER his death. Strange times we're in, for sure.

This is a basketball discussion, it has nothing to do with personal life. Everybody dies eventually.

[Phoenix]

Yeah and 2000 Kobe put up 15PPG in the finals, Kawhi 2013 put up 15/11 in the finals with much better defense. Kawhi's scoring also would increase next to all the attention that Shaq gets.

Ultimately this is a dumb plug and play exercise between two players that had different responsibilities, skill-sets for the years in question, and playing under different rules. You seem like you'll go to bat for Kawhi regardless of the situation so this isn't energy I need to keep wasting.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

BRO OF COURSE THIS THREAD IS A JOKE. Op is a troll. A few months later when Clippers win the title(they will) he will compare Kawhi to peak mj.

I already think 2019 playoffs Kawhi was better then any Jordan playoff run, so you don't have to wait that long. You're just in a delusional state of mind because your hero Hakeem "can only win a ring vs Jordan during my dream". So now you're putting Jordan on a pedastol, regardless of how other all time greats play. All because Hakeem only won when Jordan was on vacation playing baseball.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Ultimately this is a dumb plug and play exercise between two players that had different responsibilities, skill-sets for the years in question, and playing under different rules. You seem like you'll go to bat for Kawhi regardless of the situation so this isn't energy I need to keep wasting.

Kobe was the sidekick. I'm asking Kawhi to be a sidekick. What's the big deal? Phil and everybody have said that was Shaq's team.

Kawhi led spurs in minutes during 2013 finals, won 2014 finals MVP, led team in scoring in 2015. So asking to play a sidekick role to the greatest center of all time shouldn't be a bigger responsibility then playing with washed up Tim Duncan.

[NBAGOAT]

I already think 2019 playoffs Kawhi was better then any Jordan playoff run, so you don't have to wait that long. You're just in a delusional state of mind because your hero Hakeem "can only win a ring vs Jordan during my dream". So now you're putting Jordan on a pedastol, regardless of how other all time greats play. All because Hakeem only won when Jordan was on vacation playing baseball.

haha come on man with the stanning. This is going get 3ball here now like the bat signal and batman

[3ball]

Didn't Shaq need 30 ppg from Kobe to win the 02' WCF against Sacramento?

13-15' kawhi was still getting Pippen-type stats and therefore was grossly insufficient

[Phoenix]

Kobe was the sidekick. I'm asking Kawhi to be a sidekick. What's the big deal? Phil and everybody have said that was Shaq's team.

Kawhi led spurs in minutes during 2013 finals, won 2014 finals MVP, led team in scoring in 2015. So asking to play a sidekick role to the greatest center of all time shouldn't be a bigger responsibility then playing with washed up Tim Duncan.

Like I said, you're plug and playing apples and oranges. Then I see the comment above about 2019 Kawhi's playoffs being better than any Jordan run, and remembering you were also arguing for Kawhi over Kareem some time ago and yeah.....I'll stick with my conclusion to my last post. You're the latest gimmick account to hit ISH.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Didn't Shaq need 30 ppg from Kobe to win the 02' WCF against Sacramento?

13-15' kawhi was still getting Pippen-type stats and therefore was grossly insufficient

Shaq/Kawhi would basically be the 2000s version of Jordan/Pippen with Kawhi in the Pippen role. Would they go 15-1 like Shaq/Kobe? Maybe not but they still win 3 rings and that's my point. Some series probably are just more competitive then Shaq/Kobe that's all.

Kobe averaged 27PPG vs kings but taking 24.5 shots to do it and he's at just 44% TS. If Shaq gives Kawhi even 15 shots with much better defense? I don't see how Lakers lost to kings.

Meanwhile, shaq is averaging 30PPG on 22.5 FGA and on 56% TS

So yeah Kobe provides volume but he's in the triangle. The triangle makes every player better and Kawhi would be no exception.

Another thing is offensive rebounding. Kawhi had 50 offensive rebounds in 775 minutes during 2013 playoffs. Kobe had 26 offensive rebounds in 857 minutes during 2000. Pair that up with the goat offensive rebounder in Shaq? Its over

[RRR3]

Shaq is not the GOAT offensive rebounder, where did you get that idea?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Shaq is not the GOAT offensive rebounder, where did you get that idea?

He averaged 6 offensive rebounds per game in back to back finals wins 2000 and 2001. Who else has done that in the last 30 years?

[Gougou]

Nah that young Kawhi can't do it, they needed Kobe. They will struggle vs the Kings.

The 2019 Kawhi would 3 peat for sure.

[3ball]

.

Kobe averaged 27PPG vs kings but taking 24.5 shots to do it and he's at just 44% TS. If Shaq gives Kawhi even 15 shots with much better defense? I don't see how Lakers lost to kings.

Meanwhile, shaq is averaging 30PPG on 22.5 FGA and on 56% TS



Lakers needed 27 from Kobe, which Kawhi can't provide - volume is irrelevant.. if Kawhi could shoot 25 times to get 27 points, then the Lakers could win with Kawhi.. but Kawhi wasn't capable of that, so his Lakers would lose that series (vs Kings)... And badly... 22 ppg for Kawhi in Kobe's spot = blowout loss

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lakers needed 27 from Kobe, which Kawhi can't provide - volume is irrelevant.. if Kawhi could shoot 25 times to get 27 points, then the Lakers could win with Kawhi.. but Kawhi wasn't capable of that, so his Lakers would lose that series (vs Kings)... And badly... 22 ppg for Kawhi in Kobe's spot = blowout loss

Volume scoring isn't everything, especially if its inefficient scoring. Elgin Baylor put up 35PPG in the finals one year and Jerry West still lost to Russel's defense.

The big 3 were kind of shrugging Kawhi at first (especially Tony Parker). In this hypothetical scenario, kawhi would be able to develop quicker through the triangle and Shaq's offensive star power. Look what happened when spurs gave kawhi the ball in the 2014 finals...3 straight wins with kawhi at 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG. That's what Duncan was at that point and that's why it worked.

[LAmbruh]

taking Kawhi in the clutch over Kobe everytime, especially the last shot