Spurs went 7 straight years being better defensively without Tim Duncan

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2004 was considered a GOAT level defensive year for Duncan but after that he wet the bed in the playoffs basically every year. I don't know if it was Duncan's knee issues, weight issues, marriage issues or the game just passing him by.

2005 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 107 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 101 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2006 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 110 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 109 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2007 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 103 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 102 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2008 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 106 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 100 with Duncan OFF

2009 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 117 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 100 with Duncan OFF

2010 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 109.9 with Duncan ON and 109.4 with Duncan OFF

2011 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 107 with Duncan on and 103 with Duncan OFF

And finally Kawhi gets drafted and Duncan looks good again.

[Marchesk]

Replace Jordan with Duncan, how many chips does Pip win?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Replace Jordan with Duncan, how many chips does Pip win?

They wouldn't be good enough offensively. 02/03 Duncan can win a few rings from 1991-1993 but the 2nd 3peat would never happen. 2004-2007 Duncan wasn't good enough to lead bulls to titles.

[Carbine]

What an overrated player. Those numbers are very telling.

I will not watch basketball anymore. Instead, the on/off numbers will be how I determine who the best offensive and defensive players are.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What an overrated player. Those numbers are very telling.

I will not watch basketball anymore. Instead, the on/off numbers will be how I determine who the best offensive and defensive players are.

His 2005-2011 run was without question overrated. Manu was their best player.

[Roundball_Rock]

They wouldn't be good enough offensively. 02/03 Duncan can win a few rings from 1991-1993 but the 2nd 3peat would never happen. 2004-2007 Duncan wasn't good enough to lead bulls to titles.

They were a top 10 offense without MJ and that was with Kukoc as their 2nd option (8th when healthy in 94', with Grant 2nd option), not Duncan. You don't like Duncan but surely you agree Duncan>>>Kukoc or Grant as an offensive player.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

They were a top 10 offense without MJ and that was with Kukoc as their 2nd option (8th when healthy in 94', with Grant 2nd option), not Duncan. You don't like Duncan but surely you agree Duncan>>>Kukoc or Grant as an offensive player.

Regular season they would be ok. I don't see see playoff basketball as the same thing though. Jordan's offense was too valuable in the 1998 playoffs in particular.

Don't forget that even old Karl Malone guarded Duncan in 2004 and locked him up. I don't see Duncan beating young Malone. So jazz were a much worse matchup.

[Roundball_Rock]

They were 5th of 16 playoff teams in offense without MJ and 2nd of the 8 teams that won a series. That is with Grant--this scenario would give them Duncan. Duncan was top 10 in scoring five times and top 5 once. Why are people act like he was Ben Wallace as a scorer? As far as the PO go, when the Spurs made the finals in his prime he averaged 23, 25, 24, 22 during those PO runs. What's the problem here?

Not everybody was scoring 25+ in the 90's or 00's like they do today where Lavine can go 26/5/5 and no one even notices it.


Don't forget that even old Karl Malone guarded Duncan in 2004 and locked him up.

21/12/3 on 47% isn't terrible. Reggie Miller gets praised as a GOAT-level scorer on ISH for 21/3/3.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

They were 5th of 16 playoff teams in offense without MJ and 2nd of the 8 teams that won a series. That is with Grant--this scenario would give them Duncan. Duncan was top 10 in scoring five times and top 5 once. Why are people act like he was Ben Wallace as a scorer? As far as the PO go, when the Spurs made the finals in his prime he averaged 23, 25, 24, 22 during those PO runs. What's the problem here?

Not everybody was scoring 25+ in the 90's or 00's like they do today where Lavine can go 26/5/5 and no one even notices it.



21/12/3 on 47% isn't terrible. Reggie Miller gets praised as a GOAT-level scorer on ISH for 21/3/3.

1998 bulls had a 110 offensive rating with Jordan ON and 95 offensive rating with Jordan OFF. Plus I don't see Duncan being able to close out Jazz without Pippen's scoring late in the series.

Duncan in 2004 vs Lakers had a 15 GmSc with a 99 offensive rating. That's never going to get it done as a 1st option. Manu wasn't good enough to carry Duncan yet, so they lost.

2005 finals Duncan averaged 20 PPG 47% TS

2007 finals Duncan gets 18PPG on 48% TS and a 102 offensive rating

Basically, 2005-2007 Duncan gets away with the offense/scoring of a 2nd option/beta type player because the combo of Manu/Parker offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

1998 bulls had a 110 offensive rating with Jordan ON and 95 offensive rating with Jordan OFF.

Small sample size. We don't need to focus on minutes without MJ in 98' when we have 92 games from 94' (10 PO) plus 65 in 95'. You must be using PO numbers, which is an even smaller.

For the RS MJ played 80% of minutes. Their oRTG was 107 with him, 97 with him. That is bad but Pippen played 42% of minutes--so we have about half a season on either side of the sample. The Bulls' oRTG was 110 with him, 102 with him off. So another large delta.

97'? MJ and Pippen similar: 114 on, 107 off with MJ (79% of minutes on) and 114 on, 108 off (78% of minutes on).


Plus I don't see Duncan being able to close out Jazz without Pippen's scoring late in the series.

With Duncan they probably win 91', 94', 96', 97' IMO. 95' is tricky. MJ>Duncan but Duncan would fit what they lacked in 95' as an elite defensive big who rebounds. Maybe they win in 95' as well with Duncan.


Duncan in 2004 vs Lakers had a 15 GmSc with a 99 offensive rating. That's never going to get it done as a 1st option. Manu wasn't good enough to carry Duncan yet, so they lost.

2005 finals Duncan averaged 20 PPG 47% TS

2007 finals Duncan gets 18PPG on 48% TS and a 102 offensive rating

I'll look at his finals. If we count 04', we have to include stuff like the 01' and 08' WCF. The opposing #1 option in parentheses as a comp.

1999 Finals: Duncan 27 on 60% TS (Houston 22 on 50% TS)
2003 Finals: Duncan 24 on 55% TS (Kidd 20 on 45% TS)
2005 Finals: Duncan 21 on 47% TS (Billups 20 on 57% TS)
2007 Finals: Duncan 18 on 48% TS (LeBron 22 on 43% TS)

I'm not seeing a huge problem here. In 99', 03' he clearly outscored the other #1 on good efficiency. His efficiency fell in 05' and 07' but it isn't like the other team's #1 was putting up 30 on 60% TS in those series.

05' Manu scored 19, Parker 14. Manu 64% TS, Parker 47% TS. Manu was great in the finals but he took 6 less shots so we can't really compare their volume apples to apples.

07' you have a point but remember the real finals that year was the WCSF. In that series Duncan was 27 on 60% TS.


Basically, 2005-2007 Duncan gets away with the offense/scoring of a 2nd option/beta type player because the combo of Manu/Parker offense.

He was playing with 2 other HOF--they will reduce his scoring. That is a different question than his scoring capacity. Bird had finals where he wasn't scoring 30 either.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Small sample size. We don't need to focus on minutes without MJ in 98' when we have 92 games from 94' (10 PO) plus 65 in 95'. You must be using PO numbers, which is an even smaller.

For the RS MJ played 80% of minutes. Their oRTG was 107 with him, 97 with him. That is bad but Pippen played 42% of minutes--so we have about half a season on either side of the sample. The Bulls' oRTG was 110 with him, 102 with him off. So another large delta.

97'? MJ and Pippen similar: 114 on, 107 off with MJ (79% of minutes on) and 114 on, 108 off (78% of minutes on).



With Duncan they probably win 91', 94', 96', 97' IMO. 95' is tricky. MJ>Duncan but Duncan would fit what they lacked in 95' as an elite defensive big who rebounds. Maybe they win in 95' as well with Duncan.



I'll look at his finals. If we count 04', we have to include stuff like the 01' and 08' WCF. The opposing #1 option in parentheses as a comp.

1999 Finals: Duncan 27 on 60% TS (Houston 22 on 50% TS)
2003 Finals: Duncan 24 on 55% TS (Kidd 20 on 45% TS)
2005 Finals: Duncan 21 on 47% TS (Billups 20 on 57% TS)
2007 Finals: Duncan 18 on 48% TS (LeBron 22 on 43% TS)

I'm not seeing a huge problem here. In 99', 03' he clearly outscored the other #1 on good efficiency. His efficiency fell in 05' and 07' but it isn't like the other team's #1 was putting up 30 on 60% TS in those series.

05' Manu scored 19, Parker 14. Manu 64% TS, Parker 47% TS. Manu was great in the finals but he took 6 less shots so we can't really compare their volume apples to apples.

07' you have a point but remember the real finals that year was the WCSF. In that series Duncan was 27 on 60% TS.



He was playing with 2 other HOF--they will reduce his scoring. That is a different question than his scoring capacity. Bird had finals where he wasn't scoring 30 either.

Yeah I just don't see Duncan beating a prime Malone team. He lost to him in 1998 and then played awful when guarded by him in 2004. It has more to do with that. I know Pippen is great and all.

So basically the only guys Duncan can outplay are Jason Kidd, Allan Houston and Billups? You don't see the problem with that? They are average scorers for superstars who are on teams built on defense. Once Duncan plays a true offensive superstar like Dirk in 06 or Kobe in 08? He lost

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah I agree on 98'.


So basically the only guys Duncan can outplay are Jason Kidd, Allan Houston and Billups? You don't see the problem with that? They are average scorers for superstars who are on teams built on defense. Once Duncan plays a true offensive superstar like Dirk in 06 or Kobe in 08? He lost

The way I read those numbers is his scoring went down when Parker, Manu emerged as stars but I suspect the numbers will show your point regarding elite scorers. Let's check some series (excluding the ones mentioned earlier)--how big was the gap? Using TS %.

1999: Duncan 29 on 60%, Shaq 24 on 51%
2001: Duncan 23 on 51%, KG 21 on 57%; Duncan 27 on 54%, Dirk 23 on 56%; Duncan 23 on 54%, Kobe 33 on 57% Shaq 27 on 55%
2003: Duncan 28 on 58%, Kobe 32 on 53%, Shaq 25 on 59%; Duncan 28 on 60%, Dirk 25 on 56%
2004: Duncan 21 on 53%, Kobe 26 on 53%, Shaq 23 on 61%
2005: Duncan 25 on 54%, Allen 22 on 53%; Duncan 27 on 59%, Amare 37 on 61%
2007: Duncan 27 on 60%, Amare 26 on 58%; Duncan 20 on 49%, Carmelo 27 on 58%, Iverson 23 on 45%
2008: Duncan 25 on 52%, Amare 23 on 52%; Duncan 15 on 48%, Paul 24 on 56%; Duncan 22 on 47%, Kobe 29 on 59%

He did fine, outscoring everyone more often than not except Kobe. Amare outscored him in 05'--but Duncan edged him in 07' and 08'.

Duncan didn't exceed 30+ in any of these series but he was in the high 20's several times, including 28-29. Kobe twice and Amare once are the only ones who got to 30+. It was a lower scoring era than today.

I don't see why he is discussed of by some as Ben Wallace. He was not a top tier scorer but he was a second tier scorer who showed he could get to 28-29 PPG in multiple series, especially when Parker and Manu weren't taking on the large role they later did.

What is your take on these numbers?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah I agree on 98'.



The way I read those numbers is his scoring went down when Parker, Manu emerged as stars but I suspect the numbers will show your point regarding elite scorers. Let's check some series (excluding the ones mentioned earlier)--how big was the gap? Using TS %.

1999: Duncan 29 on 60%, Shaq 24 on 51%
2001: Duncan 23 on 51%, KG 21 on 57%; Duncan 27 on 54%, Dirk 23 on 56%; Duncan 23 on 54%, Kobe 33 on 57% Shaq 27 on 55%
2003: Duncan 28 on 58%, Kobe 32 on 53%, Shaq 25 on 59%; Duncan 28 on 60%, Dirk 25 on 56%
2004: Duncan 21 on 53%, Kobe 26 on 53%, Shaq 23 on 61%
2005: Duncan 25 on 54%, Allen 22 on 53%; Duncan 27 on 59%, Amare 37 on 61%
2007: Duncan 27 on 60%, Amare 26 on 58%; Duncan 20 on 49%, Carmelo 27 on 58%, Iverson 23 on 45%
2008: Duncan 25 on 52%, Amare 23 on 52%; Duncan 15 on 48%, Paul 24 on 56%; Duncan 22 on 47%, Kobe 29 on 59%

He did fine, outscoring everyone more often than not except Kobe. Amare outscored him in 05'--but Duncan edged him in 07' and 08'.

Duncan didn't exceed 30+ in any of these series but he was in the high 20's several times, including 28-29. Kobe twice and Amare once are the only ones who got to 30+. It was a lower scoring era than today.

I don't see why he is discussed of by some as Ben Wallace. He was not a top tier scorer but he was a second tier scorer who showed he could get to 28-29 PPG in multiple series, especially when Parker and Manu weren't taking on the large role they later did.

What is your take on these numbers?

2005 finals Manu/Parker combined for 33PPG 48% FG, 7 rebounds, 4 assists per game in the series vs pistons

That's basically like Duncan had another 1 superstar putting up 33/7/4 on his team. While Duncan gets locked down by Rasheed Wallace.

2007 played the suspension suns, then swept in finals despite having awful scoring efficiency.

On top of that, Manu/parker were the closers. Mixed with a little big shot bob. Could you have replaced a player like Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Dirk with Duncan during 2005-2011 spurs years and still won 2+ rings? Yes and maybe even more. Duncan cost them 1st round exit in 2011 by averaging 13 points, 2008 he lost in embarrassing fashion to Kobe, 2006 lost to Dirk with HCA. There was a lot of missed opportunities I thought.

Besides the 2003 2nd round series, I don't think Duncan ever beat a great team. It was usually defensive minded stars like Kidd, Billups, LeBron in 2007 wasn't in his prime yet, Marcus Camby in 1999 and so on. A lot of people talk about Hakeem being the one that dodged Jordan/Pippen but Duncan also dodged Jordan/Pippen in 1999 and had another easy finals playing Allan Houston.

Duncan was great during the 1999-2004 defensive grind era but sucked 2005-2011

[999Guy]

You don’t have a historic anything without a lot of help whether it’s defense or offense.

SA was loaded defensively and in an era that allowed teams to bend rules on defense.

[Carbine]

It blows my mind that losing in '06 is somehow a black mark on Duncans career to someone. It was one of the top 3 series in his lengthy playoff career IMO.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's use Bird's scoring as a comp, looking at his finals.

1981: Maxwell 18, Bird/Parish 15; Moses 22, Reid 15
1984: Bird 24, Johnson 18, Parish 15; KAJ 27, Worthy 22, Magic 18
1985: McHale 26, Bird 23, Parish 17; KAJ 26, Worthy 24, Magic 18
1986: McHale 26, Bird 24, Johnson 17; Hakeem 25, McCray/Sampson 15
1987: Bird 24, Johnson/McHale 21; Magic 26, KAJ 22, Worthy 21

So Bird consistently is 23-24 PPG from 1984-1987 and in 81' was at 15. These numbers average out to 22 and he was outscored by his teammate 3 of 5 times and was never the highest scoring player in any of these series. Bird is considered an alpha scorer so why is Duncan being held to a higher standard than Bird?

[SouBeachTalents]

It blows my mind that losing in '06 is somehow a black mark on Duncans career to someone. It was one of the top 3 series in his lengthy playoff career IMO.
Some people will literally never be able to see past the team result when judging individual players. They'll get credit for a win when they don't even play well, and criticized in a loss even when they play great. Brady's last 2 Super Bowls are the perfect example of that, was phenomenal in losing to Philly, was atrocious in beating the Rams, yet he'll get more credit for the latter

[Roundball_Rock]

Some people will literally never be able to see past the team result when judging individual players. They'll get credit for a win when they don't even play well, and criticized in a loss even when they play great. Brady's last 2 Super Bowls are the perfect example of that, was phenomenal in losing to Philly, was atrocious in beating the Rams, yet he'll get more credit for the latter

Good points. HBK isn't the only one who has used 06'. tpols said Dirk>Duncan based on that series. Team stuff has gotten out of control and now we are seeing PPG get that way too. Every player is boiled down to their team success and/or PPG on ISH.

Regarding Brady, there is no shame in losing to the GOAT Nick Foles. :bowdown:

[SouBeachTalents]

Good points. HBK isn't the only one who has used 06'. tpols said Dirk>Duncan based on that series. Team stuff has gotten out of control and now we are seeing PPG get that way too. Every player is boiled down to their team success and/or PPG on ISH.

Regarding Brady, there is no shame in losing to the GOAT Nick Foles. :bowdown:
Hey, Foles played great :lol But the fact Brady will get more credit for his Rams wins than throwing for over 500 yards against Philly is mad stupid. Peyton is another perfect example, he won his 2nd Super Bowl legitimately playing like Trent Dilfer the entire playoffs

[Roundball_Rock]

Hey, Foles played great :lol But the fact Brady will get more credit for his Rams wins than throwing for over 500 yards against Philly is mad stupid. Peyton is another perfect example, he won his 2nd Super Bowl legitimately playing like Trent Dilfer the entire playoffs

Agreed. Brady threw for 500+, scored 33 and people use that against him while him doing little the next year is used for him. Manning is good example too.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Let's use Bird's scoring as a comp, looking at his finals.

1981: Maxwell 18, Bird/Parish 15; Moses 22, Reid 15
1984: Bird 24, Johnson 18, Parish 15; KAJ 27, Worthy 22, Magic 18
1985: McHale 26, Bird 23, Parish 17; KAJ 26, Worthy 24, Magic 18
1986: McHale 26, Bird 24, Johnson 17; Hakeem 25, McCray/Sampson 15
1987: Bird 24, Johnson/McHale 21; Magic 26, KAJ 22, Worthy 21

So Bird consistently is 23-24 PPG from 1984-1987 and in 81' was at 15. These numbers average out to 22 and he was outscored by his teammate 3 of 5 times and was never the highest scoring player in any of these series. Bird is considered an alpha scorer so why is Duncan being held to a higher standard than Bird?

Bird has the massive playmaking/passing advantage and that's what makes him the better offensive player. Bird also beat better teams in the finals then Duncan did.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Good points. HBK isn't the only one who has used 06'. tpols said Dirk>Duncan based on that series. Team stuff has gotten out of control and now we are seeing PPG get that way too. Every player is boiled down to their team success and/or PPG on ISH.

Regarding Brady, there is no shame in losing to the GOAT Nick Foles. :bowdown:

Duncan is a better player then Dirk peak for peak because the defensive gap, that makes it Duncan for me. But Dirk was arguably a better player in 2006 or anytime after that.

[Smoke117]

2005 finals Manu/Parker combined for 33PPG 48% FG, 7 rebounds, 4 assists per game in the series vs pistons

That's basically like Duncan had another 1 superstar putting up 33/7/4 on his team. While Duncan gets locked down by Rasheed Wallace.

2007 played the suspension suns, then swept in finals despite having awful scoring efficiency.

On top of that, Manu/parker were the closers. Mixed with a little big shot bob. Could you have replaced a player like Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Dirk with Duncan during 2005-2011 spurs years and still won 2+ rings? Yes and maybe even more. Duncan cost them 1st round exit in 2011 by averaging 13 points, 2008 he lost in embarrassing fashion to Kobe, 2006 lost to Dirk with HCA. There was a lot of missed opportunities I thought.

Besides the 2003 2nd round series, I don't think Duncan ever beat a great team. It was usually defensive minded stars like Kidd, Billups, LeBron in 2007 wasn't in his prime yet, Marcus Camby in 1999 and so on. A lot of people talk about Hakeem being the one that dodged Jordan/Pippen but Duncan also dodged Jordan/Pippen in 1999 and had another easy finals playing Allan Houston.

Duncan was great during the 1999-2004 defensive grind era but sucked 2005-2011

Sheed was a great one on one post defender. He gave a lot of players trouble. That he never made a defensive team is crazy. A lot of competition at PF, but the idiots were also putting Tayshaun Prince on the 2nd team when Sheed was clearly a more impactful defensive player on the Pistons.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Sheed was a great one on one post defender. He gave a lot of players trouble. That he never made a defensive team is crazy. A lot of competition at PF, but the idiots were also putting Tayshaun Prince on the 2nd team when Sheed was clearly a more impactful defensive player on the Pistons.

I agree, Rasheed is a great defensive player. I think 2004 was Ben Wallace's run and 2005 was Rasheed's run, very close to back to back rings.

My point with Duncan, the spurs won the 2005 finals despite his poor scoring efficiency.

[Axe]

Pop's a great coach. Don't forget to give him credit for their success.

[iamgine]

2004 was considered a GOAT level defensive year for Duncan but after that he wet the bed in the playoffs basically every year. I don't know if it was Duncan's knee issues, weight issues, marriage issues or the game just passing him by.

2005 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 107 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 101 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2006 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 110 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 109 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2007 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 103 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 102 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2008 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 106 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 100 with Duncan OFF

2009 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 117 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 100 with Duncan OFF

2010 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 109.9 with Duncan ON and 109.4 with Duncan OFF

2011 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 107 with Duncan on and 103 with Duncan OFF

And finally Kawhi gets drafted and Duncan looks good again.

That is not apple to apple because when Duncan was ON, the team was playing the starters. When Duncan was OFF, the team was playing bench players.

For example,

2005 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 108 offensive rating with Bowen ON and 98 offensive rating with Bowen OFF.
2005 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 97 offensive rating with Nesterovic ON and 107 offensive rating with Nesterovic OFF.

Clearly not indicative of anything. Unless Nesterovic was secretly DPOY material.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That is not apple to apple because when Duncan was ON, the team was playing the starters. When Duncan was OFF, the team was playing bench players.

For example,

2005 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 108 offensive rating with Bowen ON and 98 offensive rating with Bowen OFF.
2005 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 97 offensive rating with Nesterovic ON and 107 offensive rating with Nesterovic OFF.

Clearly not indicative of anything. Unless Nesterovic was secretly DPOY material.

I'm guessing Rasho was playing with Manu a lot? Manu seemed to be the best player in the 05 playoffs whether it was offense or defense. A lot of it is based on lineups, I just find it odd that they were better without Duncan for 7 years straight.

[iamgine]

I'm guessing Rasho was playing with Manu a lot? Manu seemed to be the best player in the 05 playoffs whether it was offense or defense. A lot of it is based on lineups, I just find it odd that they were better without Duncan for 7 years straight.

Again, they were not better as it wasn't an apple to apple comparison.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Again, they were not better as it wasn't an apple to apple comparison.

Manu started in 15 games during 2005, how come his on/off numbers destroy Duncan? Its not always starters vs starters and bench vs bench, its a mix of both.

Besides, my point here is Duncan getting exposed defensively in the playoffs. Four different years Duncan was allowing a top 10 offense when he was on the court

107 in 2005 - holding teams to 10th best offense

110 in 2006 - holding teams to 5th best offense

117 in 2009 - holding teams to 1st best offense

110 in 2010 - holding teams to 9th best offense

And I didn't even count his 1st round knockout when spurs were 1st seed!

[iamgine]

Manu started in 15 games during 2005, how come his on/off numbers destroy Duncan? Its not always starters vs starters and bench vs bench, its a mix of both.

Besides, my point here is Duncan getting exposed defensively in the playoffs. Four different years Duncan was allowing a top 10 offense when he was on the court

107 in 2005 - holding teams to 10th best offense

110 in 2006 - holding teams to 5th best offense

117 in 2009 - holding teams to 1st best offense

110 in 2010 - holding teams to 9th best offense

And I didn't even count his 1st round knockout when spurs were 1st seed!
Sure if you had other arguments by all means. I'm not saying Duncan was great. Just that using on/off is incorrect because it's not apple to apple.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Sure if you had other arguments by all means. I'm not saying Duncan was great. Just that using on/off is incorrect because it's not apple to apple.

It gives a good evaluation of how your team played with you on the court. Duncan's team with him on the court ofton underperformed defensively during this stretch. 07/08 were the only times he was good and 08 he looked bad in the WCF.

[iamgine]

It gives a good evaluation of how your team played with you on the court. Duncan's team with him on the court ofton underperformed defensively during this stretch. 07/08 were the only times he was good and 08 he looked bad in the WCF.

It does not because it's not apple to apple.

[GimmeThat]

Tim Duncan was a PF first defensively, it's what happened when they somewhat moved him to the C position. C's main priority is position and position only, which means, boxing out the opposing big. whereas Duncan was also the primary and often times sole help defender on the Spurs. Meaning, there were plenty of possessions, in which he switched out of the boxing position, in order to play help defense.

This actually showcases how athletic Bill Russell was, in comparison to other players during the 60s.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Tim Duncan was a PF first defensively, it's what happened when they somewhat moved him to the C position. C's main priority is position and position only, which means, boxing out the opposing big. whereas Duncan was also the primary and often times sole help defender on the Spurs. Meaning, there were plenty of possessions, in which he switched out of the boxing position, in order to play help defense.

This actually showcases how athletic Bill Russell was, in comparison to other players during the 60s.

Yeah, he's basically too slow to guard pick and rolls, teams like mavs/suns seemed to light him up. Kobe also did major damage on him in 2008 through screen switches.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It does not because it's not apple to apple.

We know the defense was average with Duncan in 2005 and elite with Manu. Its not always bench vs starters like I said. Manu played against starters plenty, he started every game in the WCF/finals.

We also know that spurs defense was mediocre on defense with Duncan in 2005,06,09,2010 and usually very good without him. Basically not being a difference maker for his team at all.

[GimmeThat]

Yeah, he's basically too slow to guard pick and rolls, teams like mavs/suns seemed to light him up. Kobe also did major damage on him in 2008 through screen switches.

the addition of Kawhi Leonard was quite similar to Ray Allen joining the Heat

[GimmeThat]

We know the defense was average with Duncan in 2005 and elite with Manu. Its not always bench vs starters like I said. Manu played against starters plenty, he started every game in the WCF/finals.

We also know that spurs defense was mediocre on defense with Duncan in 2005,06,09,2010 and usually very good without him. Basically not being a difference maker for his team at all.

summing up Steve Nash's 2 MVPs for us

[HBK_Kliq_2]

the addition of Kawhi Leonard was quite similar to Ray Allen joining the Heat

I would say Kawhi was massively more important. Spurs were taking a 1st round exit in 2011 leading into drafting Kawhi. Heat already won a title before Ray Allen came around.

[GimmeThat]

I would say Kawhi was massively more important. Spurs were taking a 1st round exit in 2011 leading into drafting Kawhi. Heat already won a title before Ray Allen came around.

so, it is safe to conclude that Scottie Pippen was indeed a 1st option?

[jayfan]

Replace Jordan with Duncan, how many chips does Pip win?


0


.

[imdaman99]

Duncan was the anchor. What is it with people trying to diminish all time greats to push their guy over them. Let's be real, Kawhi is great but he's not gonna end up higher than Duncan. It is what it is. Not a big deal.

[Roundball_Rock]

Player A: 22 PPG on 16 shots
Player B: 21 PPG on 14 shots

According to ISH, B is an awesome scorer and A sucks at scoring? All over 1.5 PPG versus 1.4 PPG per shot? :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Player A: 22 PPG on 16 shots
Player B: 21 PPG on 14 shots

According to ISH, B is an awesome scorer and A sucks at scoring? All over 1.5 PPG versus 1.4 PPG per shot? :lol


Duncan was the anchor. What is it with people trying to diminish all time greats to push their guy over them. Let's be real, Kawhi is great but he's not gonna end up higher than Duncan. It is what it is. Not a big deal.

Duncan is the 2000s version of Hakeem pretty much. He had two dominating years (02,03) but everything else is pretty unmemorable. Only reason Duncan's longevity is better is Duncan was handed young Kawhi and Hakeem had old fat Barkley.

[3ball]

2004 was considered a GOAT level defensive year for Duncan but after that he wet the bed in the playoffs basically every year. I don't know if it was Duncan's knee issues, weight issues, marriage issues or the game just passing him by.

2005 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 107 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 101 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2006 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 110 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 109 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2007 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 103 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 102 offensive rating with Duncan OFF

2008 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 106 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 100 with Duncan OFF

2009 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 117 offensive rating with Duncan ON and 100 with Duncan OFF

2010 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 109.9 with Duncan ON and 109.4 with Duncan OFF

2011 playoffs: Spurs hold teams to 107 with Duncan on and 103 with Duncan OFF

And finally Kawhi gets drafted and Duncan looks good again.

Yeah but the Spurs offense is probably a lot better with Duncan, without a meaningful drop-off defensively.. so overall, it's positive and the Spurs were better with him

And we all know that the best defense is a good offense

[rmt]

Duncan is the 2000s version of Hakeem pretty much. He had two dominating years (02,03) but everything else is pretty unmemorable. Only reason Duncan's longevity is better is Duncan was handed young Kawhi and Hakeem had old fat Barkley.

Not to diminish Leonard's outstanding 2014 Finals but it wasn't until the (2016) playoffs of Duncan's last year (at age 39) - that Leonard out-performed Duncan.

2011-12 Regular Season
Duncan 15.4 pts 9.0 rebs 2.3 asst 1.5 blks
Leonard 7.9 pts 5.1 rebs 1.1 asst 1.3 stl

2012 Playoffs
Duncan 17.4 pts 9.4 rebs 2.8 asst 2.1 blks
Leonard 8.6 rebs 5.9 rebs 0.6 asst 1.2 stls

2012-13 RS
Duncan 17.8 pts 9.9 rebs 2.7 asst 2.7 blks
Leonard 11.9 pts 6.0 rebs 1.6 asst 1.7 stl

2013 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 1.9 asst 1.6 blks
Leonard 13.5 rebs 9.0 rebs 1.0 asst 1.8 stls

2013-14 RS
Duncan 15.1 pts 9.7 rebs 3.0 asst 1.9 blks
Leonard 11.9 pts 6.0 rebs 1.6 asst 1.7 stl

2014 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 1.9 asst 1.6 blks
Leonard 12.8 rebs 6.2 rebs 2.0 asst 1.7 stls

2014-15 RS
Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 2.7 asst 2.7 blks
Leonard 11.9 pts 6.0 rebs 1.6 asst 1.7 stl

2015 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 3.0 asst 2.0 blks
Leonard 16.5 pts 7.2 rebs 2.5 asst 2.3 stls

2015-16 RS
Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 2.7 asst 2.7 blks
Leonard 11.9 pts 6.0 rebs 1.6 asst 1.7 stl

2016 Playoffs
Duncan 8.6 pts 7.3 rebs 2.7 asst 1.3 blks
Leonard 21.2 pts 6.8 rebs 2.6 asst 1.8 stls

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah but the Spurs offense is probably a lot better with Duncan, without a meaningful drop-off defensively.. so overall, it's positive and the Spurs were better with him

And we all know that the best defense is a good offense

Duncan was shooting like shit during some of these years (finals 05, finals 07, 2004 vs lakers) or just getting beat bad on defense (2006, 2009, 2010). Duncan is known for his defense, so I'm putting a lot of stock into his defense.
Hook a step down offensively from 2009'-2012 to parker/Manu. 2011 was Manu's 2nd best year and Duncan gave him 13PPG in playoffs. I guess big men just slow down at 30 years old more dramatically then wing players, shaq also slowed down after 1 year with the heat.

I'm telling you, something was wrong with Duncan from 09-11. He finally lost weight in 2013 and started playing good again.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not to diminish Leonard's outstanding 2014 Finals but it wasn't until the (2016) playoffs of Duncan's last year (at age 39) - that Leonard out-performed Duncan.

2011-12 Regular Season
Duncan 15.4 pts 9.0 rebs 2.3 asst 1.5 blks
Leonard 7.9 pts 5.1 rebs 1.1 asst 1.3 stl

2012 Playoffs
Duncan 17.4 pts 9.4 rebs 2.8 asst 2.1 blks
Leonard 8.6 rebs 5.9 rebs 0.6 asst 1.2 stls

2012-13 RS
Duncan 17.8 pts 9.9 rebs 2.7 asst 2.7 blks
Leonard 11.9 pts 6.0 rebs 1.6 asst 1.7 stl

2013 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 1.9 asst 1.6 blks
Leonard 13.5 rebs 9.0 rebs 1.0 asst 1.8 stls

2013-14 RS
Duncan 15.1 pts 9.7 rebs 3.0 asst 1.9 blks
Leonard 11.9 pts 6.0 rebs 1.6 asst 1.7 stl

2014 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 1.9 asst 1.6 blks
Leonard 12.8 rebs 6.2 rebs 2.0 asst 1.7 stls

2014-15 RS
Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 2.7 asst 2.7 blks
Leonard 11.9 pts 6.0 rebs 1.6 asst 1.7 stl

2015 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 3.0 asst 2.0 blks
Leonard 16.5 pts 7.2 rebs 2.5 asst 2.3 stls

2015-16 RS
Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 2.7 asst 2.7 blks
Leonard 11.9 pts 6.0 rebs 1.6 asst 1.7 stl

2016 Playoffs
Duncan 8.6 pts 7.3 rebs 2.7 asst 1.3 blks
Leonard 21.2 pts 6.8 rebs 2.6 asst 1.8 stls

Sure Duncan looks a little bitter in traditional stats. It was Kawhi that destroys Duncan in advanced stats, on/off stats in 2013, 2014 finals runs.

2014 playoffs on/off:

Spurs offensive rating with Kawhi on: 115.2

Spurs offense rating with Kawhi off: 112.4

Spurs offensive rating with Tim Duncan on: 114.0

Spurs offensive rating with Tim Duncan off: 114.8

Kawhi holding teams to a 102.7 offensive rating on and 106.9 off

Duncan holds teams to a 104.1 offensive rating on and 104.1 off

Kawhi BPM: 4.7
Duncan BPM: 3.1

Kawhi: 1.3 VORP
Duncan: 1.0 VORP

And then in 2015 Kawhi led the team in scoring during playoffs and was a shot away from beating clippers but Duncan couldn't block a midget Chris Paul scoring in Duncan's face.

2016 Duncan was a role player and Kawhi was an MVP candidate.

[rmt]

Sure Duncan looks a little bitter in traditional stats. It was Kawhi that destroys Duncan in advanced stats, on/off stats in 2013, 2014 finals runs.

2014 playoffs on/off:

Spurs offensive rating with Kawhi on: 115.2

Spurs offense rating with Kawhi off: 112.4

Spurs offensive rating with Tim Duncan on: 114.0

Spurs offensive rating with Tim Duncan off: 114.8

Kawhi holding teams to a 102.7 offensive rating on and 106.9 off

Duncan holds teams to a 104.1 offensive rating on and 104.1 off

Kawhi BPM: 4.7
Duncan BPM: 3.1

Kawhi: 1.3 VORP
Duncan: 1.0 VORP

And then in 2015 Kawhi led the team in scoring during playoffs and was a shot away from beating clippers but Duncan couldn't block a midget Chris Paul scoring in Duncan's face.

2016 Duncan was a role player and Kawhi was an MVP candidate.

Kawhi did not lead the team in scoring during 2015 playoffs and in the game against the Clippers to which you refer - see below. You need to get your facts straight - I might add that this is a 38 year old Duncan vs a 23 year old Leonard that you are comparing.

2015 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 3.0 asst 2.0 blks
Leonard 16.5 pts 7.2 rebs 2.5 asst 2.3 stls

2015 playoffs vs Clippers - game 7
Duncan 27 pts 11 rebs 1 asst 68.8%FG 37:17 mins
Leonard 13 pts 10 rebs 1 asst 38.5%FG 33:19 mins