Was 2009 LeBron the best player in history?

[TheCorporation]

2009 Playoffs LeBron

PER: 37.4
WS/48: .399
BPM: 17.5
ORtg: 128
DRtg: 100

MJ's best for any year in his career:
PER: 32.0 (1991)
WS/48: .333 (1991)
BPM: 14.6 (1991)
ORtg: 127 (1991)
DRtg: 101 (1997)


https://media1.tenor.com/images/9a9c4c87bf9ddd21a4bdea41d83d9fdd/tenor.gif?itemid=7440462

[k 96]

3 of 9

[Shooter]

Yes. Even taking all of MJ's best seasons cannot compare to 1 of LeBron's.

[GimmeThat]

best player in the Eastern Conference history?

[Doranku]

The best player in history wouldn't lose to Dwight Howard with HCA.

[Akrazotile]

YES :rockon:

[Axe]

2009 Playoffs LeBron

PER: 37.4
WS/48: .399
BPM: 17.5
ORtg: 128
DRtg: 100

MJ's best for any year in his career:
PER: 32.0 (1991)
WS/48: .333 (1991)
BPM: 14.6 (1991)
ORtg: 127 (1991)
DRtg: 101 (1997)


https://media1.tenor.com/images/9a9c4c87bf9ddd21a4bdea41d83d9fdd/tenor.gif?itemid=7440462

Yes. Even taking all of MJ's best seasons cannot compare to 1 of LeBron's.
Talk about being delusional.

[Akrazotile]

The best player in history wouldn't lose to Dwight Howard with HCA.


Fvck.

YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't get why his '09 advanced numbers are SO much better than '17 or '18, when statistically they're extremely similar

[KD7]

2009 Playoffs LeBron

PER: 37.4
WS/48: .399
BPM: 17.5
ORtg: 128
DRtg: 100

MJ's best for any year in his career:
PER: 32.0 (1991)
WS/48: .333 (1991)
BPM: 14.6 (1991)
ORtg: 127 (1991)
DRtg: 101 (1997)


https://media1.tenor.com/images/9a9c4c87bf9ddd21a4bdea41d83d9fdd/tenor.gif?itemid=7440462
He was a literal god that year :bowdown::bowdown:

[ImKobe]

So, the "best player in history" lost to Dwight ****ing Howard with HCA?

[KD7]

So, the "best player in history" lost to Dwight ****ing Howard with HCA?
Do you realize that basketball is a team sport?

[ImKobe]

Do you realize that basketball is a team sport?

Do you realize the Cavs won 66 games and lost to a team that didn't even have it's star point guard? Rafer Alston and rookie Courtney Lee were starters for crying out loud...

[GimmeThat]

I don't get why his '09 advanced numbers are SO much better than '17 or '18, when statistically they're extremely similar

1st round 4-0
CLE 93.5
DET 78

2nd round 4-0
CLE 96.3
ATL 78.3

they were 29-12 vs 500, with the Lakers at 31-12, and 3-3 in 3 PT games for their regular season record

[KD7]

Do you realize the Cavs won 66 games and lost to a team that didn't even have it's star point guard? Rafer Alston and rookie Courtney Lee were starters for crying out loud...
So, they still had Hedo,Rashard and Pietrus whilst all LeBron had was Mo Williams who shot 37% from the field that series

[Phoenix]

I don't get why his '09 advanced numbers are SO much better than '17 or '18, when statistically they're extremely similar

That's why you should only put *so* much stock in them. If someone asked me to pick one version of Lebron out of those years to win a series I would take 17 or 18 over 09, even if the latter version was more explosive and the advanced numbers say something else.

[ELITEpower23]

That's why you should only put *so* much stock in them. If someone asked me to pick one version of Lebron out of those years to win a series I would take 17 or 18 over 09, even if the latter version was more explosive and the advanced numbers say something else.


How does LeBron have 5 peaks though, thats what I wanna know

[RRR3]

LeBron is the greatest human being of all time.

[imdaman99]

Him and Wade were incredible that year. Imagine if they had teamed up while Wade had 5-6 good years left in him :lebronamazed: they might have been able to figure it out and won 4-5

[ImKobe]

So, they still had Hedo,Rashard and Pietrus whilst all LeBron had was Mo Williams who shot 37% from the field that series

Lebron had the better back court and 2nd unit... all I'm hearing is excuses

Game 6

Delonte 22/4/3/2/1 9/17 FG 2/3 3PT
Williams 17/3/5 6/12 FG 3/4 3PT

Best player "of all time" can't win a game against Dwight Howard with that help?

[Wally450]

I'd say 2013 when you factor in efficiency.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron had the better back court and 2nd unit... all I'm hearing is excuses

Game 6

Delonte 22/4/3/2/1 9/17 FG 2/3 3PT
Williams 17/3/5 6/12 FG 3/4 3PT

Best player "of all time" can't win a game against Dwight Howard with that help?

You mean Lebron putting up 41/9/8 on 60.4 TS% through game 1-5, including a game winning buzzer beater, was only good enough to get the Cavs to 2-3 in the series?

Nice way of cherry picking and ignoring the Cavs getting smoked on defense, especially at the 3-point line, outside of Lebron. You should show "dwight's" help (not too mention Dwight himself was at his peak, which he was a great player then).

[Walk on Water]

If 2009 was Lebron’s best year that proves Kobe is better because back then not only did Kobe know he was better than LBJ, but LBJ said it himself.

Forget stats. Eye test and one on one footage plus King said it himself.

[ImKobe]

You mean Lebron putting up 41/9/8 on 60.4 TS% through game 1-5, including a game winning buzzer beater, was only good enough to get the Cavs to 2-3 in the series?

Nice way of cherry picking and ignoring the Cavs getting smoked on defense, especially at the 3-point line, outside of Lebron. You should show "dwight's" help (not too mention Dwight himself was at his peak, which he was a great player then).

Shouldn't be hearing about these excuses for "best player ever".

Delonte and Mo outplayed Dwight's help in Game 6

Lewis 18/8/2/2/1 6/13 FG 3/7 3PT
Turkoglu 10/7/5 3/12 FG 2/6 3PT

[StrongLurk]

Shouldn't be hearing about these excuses for "best player ever".

Delonte and Mo outplayed Dwight's help in Game 6

Lewis 18/8/2/2/1 6/13 FG 3/7 3PT
Turkoglu 10/7/5 3/12 FG 2/6 3PT

I'm not giving excuses, I'm explaining to you that there was 6 games in that playoff series, and you are only looking at one.

Try thinking a little harder next time. You look dumb trying to call out a player who was playing some of the best basketball ever.

[ImKobe]

I'm not giving excuses, I'm explaining to you that there was 6 games in that playoff series, and you are only looking at one.

Try thinking a little harder next time. You look dumb trying to call out a player who was playing some of the best basketball ever.

Yes, and he didn't shoot well outside the first two games. That does not qualify for "best ever".

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No, just enhanced stats from playing awful teams like the Mo Evans Hawks. The worst player to ever get to the finals Dwight Howard beat LeBron that year, somehow that makes LeBron the best ever? Hahahah

[tpols]

I don't get why his '09 advanced numbers are SO much better than '17 or '18, when statistically they're extremely similar

FTs.

He made almost 600 FT's in 2009 and only 200 something this year. His ORTG was 122 in 2009 and 117 this year.

[Roundball_Rock]

ISH is funny. The same people hyping Mo Williams in these 09' Cavs threads will go in other threads and say HOF help sucked. :lol


I don't get why his '09 advanced numbers are SO much better than '17 or '18, when statistically they're extremely similar

I believe that is because these stats are adjusted against the "league average." In BPM's case I think they also adjust against what your teammates did.


So, the "best player in history" lost to Dwight ****ing Howard with HCA?

It says "Orlando Magic defeated the Cleveland Cavaliers 4-2" not "Dwight Howard defeated LeBron James."


You mean Lebron putting up 41/9/8 on 60.4 TS% through game 1-5, including a game winning buzzer beater, was only good enough to get the Cavs to 2-3 in the series?

Nice way of cherry picking and ignoring the Cavs getting smoked on defense, especially at the 3-point line, outside of Lebron. You should show "dwight's" help (not too mention Dwight himself was at his peak, which he was a great player then).

Not only that, Orlando uniquely matched up well with the Cavs.

[KD7]

Lebron had the better back court and 2nd unit... all I'm hearing is excuses

Game 6

Delonte 22/4/3/2/1 9/17 FG 2/3 3PT
Williams 17/3/5 6/12 FG 3/4 3PT

Best player "of all time" can't win a game against Dwight Howard with that help?

Mikel Pietrus outscored the entire Cavs bench that game, some help that LeBron had that series

Who's fault it was that Dwight is going off for 40?

LeBron averaged 38/8/8 what more do you want from him,?

At some point you have to put the blame on his supporting cast, one man can't do everything by himself

And idgaf what West and Mo did for one game what about the other 3 losses?

LeBron literally dropped 50 points in game one and they still somehow lost :facepalm

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron's curse is he takes teams much farther than they had any business going and then gets attacked for losing there. Wade had a similar team in 09' and couldn't get out the first round. Kobe had similar teams in 05', 06', 07' and couldn't get out the first round (and missed the playoffs in 05'). If you go 44-38 and get bounced in the first round no one will care--hell, you will get praised for it if you put up big numbers getting swept.

[tpols]

The thing is they lost to Dwight Howard who had no better help than Lebron. 2 time all star Rashard Lewis was his second option. Big Z made two all star games. Mo made it that year. Varejeo and Delonte west were all defensive team level guys. Hedo Turkogulu and Mickael Pietrus don't bridge any gap. These were similar casts and EVERY analyst was picking Cleveland to beat Orlando. It was a bonafide upset.

Before the playoffs Cleveland was not only predicted to beat the magic, they were predicted to beat everybody. (https://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/041609-2009-nba-finals-odds-to-win-cleveland-cavaliers-54-favorites-to-win-nba-title)

Part of it I think is the defensive attention paid to each star.

Everyone knows Stan Van Gundy chose to single cover Lebron and stay home on shooters. In 2009? Nobody was leaving Dwight in single coverage as he was simply too dominant in the low post. It was an auto dunk if you didn't double him. So his shooters were open while Lebron's weren't. Dwight also averaged 26/13 on a blistering 133 ORTG. He shot 65% from the field and 70% from the line. Thats incredible for him, and a HUGE part of why Orlando won. He was defensively and offensively producing at a far better rate than Lebron.

[StrongLurk]

The thing is they lost to Dwight Howard who had no better help than Lebron. 2 time all star Rashard Lewis was his second option. Big Z made two all star games. Mo made it that year. Varejeo and Delonte west were all defensive team level guys. Hedo Turkogulu and Mickael Pietrus don't bridge any gap. These were similar casts and EVERY analyst was picking Cleveland to beat Orlando. It was a bonafide upset.

Before the playoffs Cleveland was not only predicted to beat the magic, they were predicted to beat everybody. (https://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/041609-2009-nba-finals-odds-to-win-cleveland-cavaliers-54-favorites-to-win-nba-title)

Part of it I think is the defensive attention paid to each star.

Everyone knows Stan Van Gundy chose to single cover Lebron and stay home on shooters. In 2009? Nobody was leaving Dwight in single coverage as he was simply too dominant in the low post. It was an auto dunk if you didn't double him. So his shooters were open while Lebron's weren't. Dwight also averaged 26/13 on a blistering 133 ORTG. He shot 65% from the field and 70% from the line. Thats incredible for him, and a HUGE part of why Orlando won. He was defensively and offensively producing at a far better rate than Lebron.

Dwight was amazing, but Dwight doesn't shoot threes. Magic crushed from 3.

Magic from 3 - 62/152 = 40.8%
Cavs from 3 - 42/130 = 32.3%

Magic were also clutch as a team (again not really Dwight Howard tho, his "cast").

Most other things in the series were pretty even.

[Roundball_Rock]

tpols cherry picking when defenses matter again. I guess Orlando having the #1 defense doesn't matter because they played a player he hates, not one of his favorites who got shut down (not 38/9/8 or whatever it was) against a top defense. :lol

[RRR3]

tpols cherry picking when defenses matter again. I guess Orlando having the #1 defense doesn't matter because they played a player he hates, not one of his favorites who got shut down (not 38/9/8 or whatever it was) against a top defense. :lol
He also insists Ewing would shut LeBron down but always ignores how LeBron eviscerated peak Dwight.

[tpols]

Dwight was amazing, but Dwight doesn't shoot threes. Magic crushed from 3.

Magic from 3 - 62/152 = 40.8%
Cavs from 3 - 42/130 = 32.3%

Magic were also clutch as a team (again not really Dwight Howard tho, his "cast").

Most other things in the series were pretty even.

What about the last paragraph? Dwight was doubled... Lebron wasn't. Watch Dwights second look of the game in this highlight... he was TRIPLE team'ed. Now watch Lebron @ 1:05. They weren't doubling him at all. Straight island. That was the theme of the whole series, and a huge reason orlando's shooters got better looks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMQH6Zi59cs

First bucket of the series for Orlando... Dwight dunked so hard, he broke the shotclock. :roll:

[tpols]

I just looked it up... Orlando and Cleveland had the same DRTG at 102. Couldnt be more apples to apples. :lol

Go look for yourself.

[StrongLurk]

What about the last paragraph? Dwight was doubled... Lebron wasn't. Watch Dwights second look of the game in this highlight... he was TRIPLE team'ed. Now watch Lebron @ 1:05. They weren't doubling him at all. Straight island. That was the theme of the whole series, and a huge reason orlando's shooters got better looks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMQH6Zi59cs

First bucket of the series for Orlando... Dwight dunked so hard, he broke the shotclock. :roll:

Okay, sounds like you are greatly complimenting Dwight as I have done? Dwight is easy to clown because of his personality but he was legit a great, top 5 player in the league for a 3-4 year stretch (including 09). I mean, plenty of all time greats have lost to players of Dwight's caliber leading a team or worse. 88 MJ lost to the 88 Pistons who didn't have a player as good as 09 Dwight, and MJ only put up 27/9/5 in that series (lost in 5).

Why not be objective and just admit that Lebron and Dwight were both great as individuals, and that the Magic's role players came through more overall than the Cavs? Seriously, Lebron was very clutch in this series yet MULTIPLE Magic role players kept being super clutch as well (Rashard, Hedo, Pietrus for sure).

[tpols]

They are both great players and peak Dwight was definitely something to behold. Post magic he got passed around more than a video girl at a sno0p dog and dr dre after party. Mostly because by then he didnt have the same ability he did before the back injury, but mentally thought he did so he commanded more touches than he could be efficient with. 2009? That wasn't the case... he was a monster. But I dont see why it's unfair to say his double coverage got his shooters better looks than lebron's single coverage. I can admit they are both great players, and still apply that context.

[knicksman]

LeBron's curse is he takes teams much farther than they had any business going and then gets attacked for losing there. Wade had a similar team in 09' and couldn't get out the first round. Kobe had similar teams in 05', 06', 07' and couldn't get out the first round (and missed the playoffs in 05'). If you go 44-38 and get bounced in the first round no one will care--hell, you will get praised for it if you put up big numbers getting swept.

Lebron is like law. As a stand alone course, its the best. Business or engineering isnt beating it. But the problem is its a finished product. You cant combine law with other courses so when it comes to duo, nobody is beating a business/engineering combo. Its the courses of the richest people. Its the same with lebron. Individually, nobody is beating lebron in terms of impact but the problem is hes a finished product. You cant put other players around him to make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Him winning 66 with a superteam and him winning 66 in cleveland is testament to that. While kobe has won 65 in the tougher west. So when it comes to who really is the better player? It really depends on your preference. If your contented with making the playoffs then go for lebron but if you want to win it all then go for kobe. Coz kobe has the better potential.

[TheCorporation]

The thing is they lost to Dwight Howard who had no better help than Lebron. 2 time all star Rashard Lewis was his second option. Big Z made two all star games. Mo made it that year. Varejeo and Delonte west were all defensive team level guys. Hedo Turkogulu and Mickael Pietrus don't bridge any gap. These were similar casts and EVERY analyst was picking Cleveland to beat Orlando. It was a bonafide upset.



And this Is why posters like you are not GMs. You think the casts were equal? Not a chance. I'll take Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkeyglu over Mo Williams and Delonte any day.

Dwight Howard's 5th option was scoring 13 ppg. Bron's 9 ppg.

Dwight's #3 option was Hedo. Bron's was Delonte West :lol

Bye

[AirBonner]

And this Is why posters like you are not GMs. You think the casts were equal? Not a chance. I'll take Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkeyglu over Mo Williams and Delonte any day.

Dwight Howard's 5th option was scoring 13 ppg. Bron's 9 ppg.

Dwight's #3 option was Hedo. Bron's was Delonte West :lol

Bye

Bingo. Magic had two role players better than Bron’s 2nd option

[TheCorporation]

I just looked it up... Orlando and Cleveland had the same DRTG at 102. Couldnt be more apples to apples. :lol

Go look for yourself.

Don't be dense the Magic had the number one defense over the 82 game season

[TheCorporation]

Okay, sounds like you are greatly complimenting Dwight as I have done? Dwight is easy to clown because of his personality but he was legit a great, top 5 player in the league for a 3-4 year stretch (including 09). I mean, plenty of all time greats have lost to players of Dwight's caliber leading a team or worse. 88 MJ lost to the 88 Pistons who didn't have a player as good as 09 Dwight, and MJ only put up 27/9/5 in that series (lost in 5).

Why not be objective and just admit that Lebron and Dwight were both great as individuals, and that the Magic's role players came through more overall than the Cavs? Seriously, Lebron was very clutch in this series yet MULTIPLE Magic role players kept being super clutch as well (Rashard, Hedo, Pietrus for sure).

+1

Imagine blaming LeBron for a series loss in which he averaged 39-8-8 on 51% :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

He also insists Ewing would shut LeBron down but always ignores how LeBron eviscerated peak Dwight.

:lol

Now he is bringing up their defensive ratings.

LeBron against the Magic (#1 defense): 39/8/8 59% TS 29.3 GS
Howard against the Cavs (#3 defense): 26/13/3 69% TS 22.9 GS

LeBron easily wins this comparison. Some may cling to TS % but it is dumb to compare a center's efficiency to a SF's. Anyone who understands the sport knows the type of shots Howard took were a lot easier than what LeBron took.


88 MJ lost to the 88 Pistons who didn't have a player as good as 09 Dwight, and MJ only put up 27/9/5 in that series (lost in 5).

When MJ loses it is the team; when LeBron loses putting up 39/8/8 the question is why he didn't go 50/13/12 to overcome the team.


You think the casts were equal? Not a chance. I'll take Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkeyglu over Mo Williams and Delonte any day.

They were talking about Turk, the Magic's third or fourth best player (if Nelson is healthy), as all-star caliber back then. One of the commentators in the finals or ECF was saying he just needed more consistency to actually be an all-star. Now he is worse than Delonte? :lol

[insidious301]

I like "tpol" however he's got a tenacity to waver in opinion. Had a few conversations where he will apply standards for one player and not another. Odd behavior for someone who clearly isn't a troll.

[3ball]

He showed us how to lose with a 39 PER, aka the goat loser.. no one is better at it

The Magic were literally a top 5 underdog all-time ever to win a playoff series, and their coach openly states that they exploited Lebron's skillset..

[TheCorporation]

He showed us how to lose with a 39 PER, aka the goat loser.. no one is better at it

The Magic were literally a top 5 underdog all-time ever to win a playoff series, and their coach openly states that they exploited Lebron's skillset..

He just needed a Pippen.

If we trade spots with Pippen and Mo Williams I don't know if MJ even makes a Finals let alone wins a ring, where as LeBron would comfortably win 7 or 8 rings.

[warriorfan]

Give LeBron a break. He was going up against the big 3 of Howard, Lewis, and Rafer Alston.

He needed more help.

[Whoah10115]

2009 LeBron isn't close to best LeBron.

Says more about his fans that they think it is.

[Wally450]

Give LeBron a break. He was going up against the big 3 of Howard, Lewis, and Rafer Alston.

He needed more help.

The disrespect to Hedo Turkoglu.

[TheCorporation]

2009 LeBron isn't close to best LeBron.

Says more about his fans that they think it is.

Don't be so sure of yourself buddy boy. Advanced metric numbers better than all of Jordan's best years combined? I know the pain must hurt.

[3ball]

He just needed a Pippen.

If we trade spots with Pippen and Mo Williams I don't know if MJ even makes a Finals let alone wins a ring, where as LeBron would comfortably win 7 or 8 rings.
Weak teams with no "Pippen" were routinely winning the East at that time - 09' Magic, 07' Cavs, 02/03 Nets. 01' Sixers - indeed, lebron formed a super-team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the ECF win streak (the definition of stacking the deck, manufactured resume)

Otoh, an all-time great team with many HOF's was required to win the 80's East.. 1 and 2 star teams weren't contenders until the 90's when the parity was better.

Also, 89' MJ nearly beat the Pistons and made the Finals with Pippen getting 9.7 on 40%... He easily wins with Mo's 18 on 38%.

But more importantly, MJ was too good to lose to any team that that was close to his team, let alone a massive underdog like the Magic - everyone was surprised when the Magic started winning and the Cavs lost three 4th quarter leads in that series.. Dwight also destroyed lebron in the critical Game 4 OT

[Whoah10115]

Don't be so sure of yourself buddy boy. Advanced metric numbers better than all of Jordan's best years combined? I know the pain must hurt.

Stats stats stats.

No basketball. Sorry.

[Hey Yo]

So, the "best player in history" lost to Dwight ****ing Howard with HCA?
Didn't your hero Kobe lose to Ben fu**ing Wallace with HCA when they were expected to easily sweep?

[3ball]

Didn't your hero Kobe lose to Ben fu**ing Wallace with HCA when they were expected to easily sweep?

When did Jordan lose to an underdog?.. he was too good to even get DOWN in a series to a comparable team.. (was rarely down in any series he won)

Jordan only lost when he was a big underdog, like Lebron was in 18' Finals.. those are the only deficits that Jordan ever lost with (And MJ's teams faced far worse deficits than the 18' Cavs because MJ lost with low-seeded, lottery-level teams, while the 18' Cavs were a high-seeded Finals team with the best 2nd option in the conference)

[Bronbron23]

2009 Playoffs LeBron

PER: 37.4
WS/48: .399
BPM: 17.5
ORtg: 128
DRtg: 100

MJ's best for any year in his career:
PER: 32.0 (1991)
WS/48: .333 (1991)
BPM: 14.6 (1991)
ORtg: 127 (1991)
DRtg: 101 (1997)


https://media1.tenor.com/images/9a9c4c87bf9ddd21a4bdea41d83d9fdd/tenor.gif?itemid=7440462

Mj in 87'-88 won mvp and dpoy. He was as first team defense, won all star mvp and the dunk off. He scored 35 pts a game that year and basically had 6 reb and 6 assists.

If lebron did this his stans would lose there tiny little minds:facepalm

[WhiteKyrie]

LeBron's curse is he takes teams much farther than they had any business going and then gets attacked for losing there. Wade had a similar team in 09' and couldn't get out the first round. Kobe had similar teams in 05', 06', 07' and couldn't get out the first round (and missed the playoffs in 05'). If you go 44-38 and get bounced in the first round no one will care--hell, you will get praised for it if you put up big numbers getting swept.
Kobe played in a vastly superior conference, with arguably even worse teammates relative to competition. In 2005 he was injured and only played 60 something games. Wade's roster in 2009 and 2010 was by far worse than anything LeBron dealt with from 2005 - 2010.

Context, you're being disingenuous.

Larry Hughes, Big Z, Drew Gooden, Boobie Gibson, Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, these aren't bums. And in the East? Considered talented.

LeBron raises floors for average to decent talent, yes. But it's also proven he minimizes perennial all star talent, or marginalizes them given his egocentric / ball dominance style of play, causing them to achieve dramatically less than they should. "Not 6, not 7, not 8" etc.

He dampens star talent to some level with all but the exception of Kyrie Irving. Who is just one of the all time greats a crafty, destructive half court isolation scorer on the ball, without needing to be fed to score. Kyrie consistently was their motivational, dominant half court scorer in the playoffs, and especially Finals. LeBron would rack up his points in transition, or in garbage moments of the game when in Miami and second stint in Cleveland.

Wade was merely hobbled in 2014. But even him, an MVP caliber Finals MVP player and HOF guy. Top 5 at his position. A better sidekick relative to himself than Scottie was to Mike. And he still managed to underachieve because Wade selflessly had to change his whole style to accommodate LeBron's mental, and skill limitations. Plus Bron's massive ego.

MJ, Kobe, Wade, can raise the floor for bum teams, but also don't casterate sidekicks or all star talent. In the case of Mike and Kobe, elevate the perception of talented but obvious Betas in Pippen and Gasol.

6 rings for 6 attempts.
5 rings for 7 attempts.

vs

3 rings for 9 attempts.

2 of them basically borderline fluky. Having the most well rounded stats on an individual level isn't the point of the game of basketball. It also doesn't make you the best player. No one holds losers like Oscar and Westbrick in that regard as being the best player.

[Roundball_Rock]

Excuses. :oldlol:

Conference isn't relevant when you suck that bad.

2005 he got hurt--and his team did about the same without him. So Kobe couldn't elevate them at all? That is the point--LeBron is arguably the GOAT floor raiser.


MJ, Kobe, Wade, can raise the floor for bum teams, but also don't casterate sidekicks or all star talent.

These players all have poor (for legends of their caliber) floor raising records, contrary to the hype. They didn't do anything unless they had good teams around them. Without that? First round bounces or missing the playoffs. LeBron was in the finals in 07' with bums and contending in 09' with Mo Williams as his best teammate.


In the case of Mike and Kobe, elevate the perception of talented but obvious Betas in Pippen and Gasol.

Another myth--list the players who had their best years playing alongside MJ. Pippen, Grant, BJ, Kukoc, Oakley, Cartwright, Stackhouse, Hamilton all did better without him. Kerr was about the same either way, although if you factor in the WNBA line for 1995-1997, 94' clearly is his best year then (no MJ).

Gasol was a star before Kobe, a star with Kobe, a star after Kobe.

LeBron does have issues with integrating with stars (that cuts both ways for Miami: Wade was on the same team...) but a lot of what else you posted isn't supported by the evidence.

Here are how Kobe's teams did without him in his prime when he missed at least 10% of the season. What is being raised here? They consistently basically do the same either way, outside of the outlier of 04'.

2000: 55-11 with Kobe (68 win pace)
2000: 12-4 without Kobe (62 win pace)

2001: 45-23 with Kobe (54 win pace)
2001: 11-3 without Kobe (64 win pace)

2004: 48-17 with Kobe (61 win pace)
2004: 8-9 without Kobe (39 win pace)

2005: 28-38 with Kobe (35 win pace)
2005: 6-10 without Kobe (31 win pace)

2010: 51-22 with Kobe (57 win pace)
2010: 6-3 without Kobe (55 win pace)

2012: 36-22 with Kobe (51 win pace)
2012: 5-3 without Kobe (51 win pace)

[WhiteKyrie]

Excuses. :oldlol:
Nah that only happens with 3 for 9. Playing alongside more HOFers, and Perennial All Stars than Jordan or Kobe did as they team's best players. Facts are facts. Stay salty, my friend.

[Cyrus334]

Sure, but that just makes him look even worse when he lost to Dwight Howard after winning upwards of 60 games lol.

"B-B-But it's a team game!"

I thought he was supposed to make his team mates better, yet they all shit the bed going up against an inferior team.

[StrongLurk]

Lot of sad alts/posters coming out of the woodwork...yikes.

[insidious301]

vastly superior conference

I see this get mentioned a lot. Now that LeBron is in a "vastly superior conference" though, he doesn't get brownie points for it. The conversation around LeBron making "stars worse" is funny too. While that may be true on its face, look at Davis' production this year. He leads the Lakers in a lot of major stat categories. Scoring included. We see this brought up to diminish LeBron however it is never used to give him credit. Not for taking a seat back or changing his role and becoming a facilitator first. Double standards everywhere.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, the guy whose teams go to trash without him was the one who really had the most help--not the guys whose teams beasted without them.


I see this get mentioned a lot. Now that LeBron is in a "vastly superior conference" though

The same conference the 09' Cavs went 26-4 against too. :oldlol:

[ZenMaster7210]

The best player in history wouldn't lose to Dwight Howard with HCA.
:oldlol::oldlol::rockon::oldlol::pimp:

[insidious301]

Yes, the guy whose teams go to trash without him was the one who really had the most help--not the guys whose teams beasted without them.



The same conference the 09' Cavs went 26-4 against too. :oldlol:

The "vastly superior" conference LeBron had his way with. Don't get me wrong, there are certain conference disparities. But they are mostly overstated for an agenda.

[Roundball_Rock]

The "vastly superior" conference LeBron had his way with. Don't get me wrong, there are certain conference disparities. But they are mostly overstated for an agenda.

Agreed. The reason you never see the vs. conference records posted is those numbers aren't convenient, especially in LeBron's prime. It's roughly an even split if you count the # of years they did better against one conference or the other.

One irony is with LeBron now in the West and his team in 1st place--their record is worse against the East. They have 7 losses against each conference--but played only 23 games against the East to get there versus 40 against the West.

[Cyrus334]

The "vastly superior" conference LeBron had his way with. Don't get me wrong, there are certain conference disparities. But they are mostly overstated for an agenda.

No it's not.

It's a fact that the West has been the far dominant conference for the majority of his career except the very early parts.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8uamza/oc_eastern_conference_vs_western_conference/

Just look at the disparities among these graphs.

[Roundball_Rock]

Comparing conferences as a whole has limited value when we are talking about a top team. You have to compare his team's record against each conference.

[insidious301]

Case in point, Roundball. Haha


No it's not.

It's a fact that the West has been the far dominant conference for the majority of his career except the very early parts.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8uamza/oc_eastern_conference_vs_western_conference/

Just look at the disparities among these graphs.

So, what's your take on '09 LeBron going 26-4 in the "mighty west"?

[Roundball_Rock]

I am not sure why people act like this is like baseball or football where only a small percentage of games are against the other "conference." In basketball each team plays every other team. About two-fifths of games will be against the other conference. We have a large sample size each year for "conference vs. conference." What we miss is we only get a couple of games between top teams across conferences, whereas within conference we can have a 4-5 game sample.

I did a post years ago about 2008-2012 and the top East teams did better against the top West teams during that time. The East got weaker after that but that doesn't tell us anything about the East's best team.

[Bronbron23]

best player in history with no chips, a loss to dwight howard and a finals sweep a couple years before. Bron stans are awesome:facepalm

[Cyrus334]

Case in point, Roundball. Haha



So, what's your take on '09 LeBron going 26-4 in the "mighty west"?

Impressive, but again like I said in my earlier post, the East was far stronger during Lebron's early years (09 was his 6th year so still before he entered his prime) than what it became during the later part of his career.

[Stanley Kobrick]

i think his playoff IQ and confidence was at its peak between 2012-2018, 2009 may have been his peak athletically

[SouBeachTalents]

i think his playoff IQ and confidence was at its peak between 2012-2018, 2009 may have been his peak athletically
'09 was kind of an aberration for LeBron for his pre title playoff runs. He often really struggled in his teams final playoff series, he had the two worst series of his career his first 2 trips to the Finals, then had some really bad stretches of games against Boston in '08 & '10. '09 was the one time he not only played well throughout the entire playoffs, he played some of the best basketball of his entire career

[Roundball_Rock]

Impressive, but again like I said in my earlier post, the East was far stronger during Lebron's early years (09 was his 6th year so still before he entered his prime) than what it became during the later part of his career.

This year the Lakers have done much worse against the East.

2016: Cavs 35-17 against the East (67%), 22-8 against the West (73%).
2013: 25-5 against the West (83%), 41-11 against the East (79%).
2012: 11-7 against the West, 35-13 against the East.
2011: 15-15 against the West, 32-20 against the East.
2010: 23-7 against the West (77%), 38-14 against the East (74%).

His teams have been better against the West in 20', 16', 13', 10', 09'.
His teams have been better against the East in 12', 11'.

Someone can look up 2007-2008 and 2014-2019 to fill in the gaps but we already have a 5-2 edge for doing better against the West.

[Cyrus334]

This year the Lakers have done much worse against the East.

2016: Cavs 35-17 against the East (67%), 22-8 against the West (73%).
2013: 25-5 against the West (83%), 41-11 against the East (79%).
2012: 11-7 against the West, 35-13 against the East.
2011: 15-15 against the West, 32-20 against the East.
2010: 23-7 against the West (77%), 38-14 against the East (74%).

His teams have been better against the West in 20', 16', 13', 10', 09'.
His teams have been better against the East in 12', 11'.

Someone can look up 2007-2008 and 2014-2019 to fill in the gaps but we already have a 5-2 edge for doing better against the West.

What's the record this year? And I'll need to see that missing data cuz because I'm fairly certain his record against the West from 2014-2018 is worse than the East.

[Roundball_Rock]

Anyone can look the other years up on BBR. This year they have 7 losses against both conferences--but it took 23 games to lose 7x against the East and 40 games to do it against the West.

2014? It turns out they did slightly better against the West again. So now 6-2.

2014: 20-10 (67%) against the West, 34-18 (65%) against the East

The Western conference has been vastly overrated over the 2010's. It's playoffs rarely are competitive as the parity in the West is fiction.

The West legitimately was much stronger from 1999 to 2007 but it's reputation hasn't changed as its advantage declined. It has been slightly better than the East since--but the West has been better than the East in probably every decade except the 80's. The only time people gave a damn about it was 2007-2018 (mysteriously the conference talk ended suddenly as soon as LeBron switched conferences :oldlol: ).

[Cyrus334]

Anyone can look the other years up on BBR. This year they have 7 losses against both conferences--but it took 23 games to lose 7x against the East and 40 games to do it against the West.

2014? It turns out they did slightly better against the West again. So now 6-2.

2014: 20-10 (67%) against the West, 34-18 (65%) against the East

The Western conference has been vastly overrated over the 2010's. It's playoffs rarely are competitive as the parity in the West is fiction.

The West legitimately was much stronger from 1999 to 2007 but it's reputation hasn't changed as its advantage declined. It has been slightly better than the East since--but the West has been better than the East in probably every decade except the 80's. The only time people gave a damn about it was 2007-2018 (mysteriously the conference talk ended suddenly as soon as LeBron switched conferences :oldlol: ).

Well he's only been there for a season and a half lol. It's gonna take much longer than that for people to start using conference disparity.

[light]

All versions of LeBron are the best player in history.

If you believe in Jesus, it's like asking which version of him was most Christ.

[Axe]

All versions of LeBron are the best player in history.

If you believe in Jesus, it's like asking which version of him was most Christ.
Yeah but he's not a god to everybody as you try to make it seem like he's actually one

[TheCorporation]

2009 Playoffs LeBron

PER: 37.4
WS/48: .399
BPM: 17.5
ORtg: 128
DRtg: 100

MJ's best for any year in his career:
PER: 32.0 (1991)
WS/48: .333 (1991)
BPM: 14.6 (1991)
ORtg: 127 (1991)
DRtg: 101 (1997)


https://media1.tenor.com/images/9a9c4c87bf9ddd21a4bdea41d83d9fdd/tenor.gif?itemid=7440462

Focus

[kawhileonard2]

Not when you losing to Dwight Howard with HCA. No other all time great would lose to Dwight freaking Howard with HCA.