The ball-dominator brand requires an elite 1st option to play 2nd option, aka

[3ball]

Kareem, Worthy, Wade, Kyrie, AD

^^^ all were elite 1st options forced to play 2nd option in a ball-dominator brand of offense

Guys like Nash and CP3 didn't have elite 1st options in 2nd option roles, so they couldn't win with this brand

Ultimately, Lebron team-hopped for the extra talent this suboptimal brand needs to win - "pre-decision" lebron was a playoff disappointer just like Nash/CP3

(especially from 08-10', when Lebron was shut down (08'), and he was the first guy to lose twice in a row with 60-win 1 seeds (09-10'), aka that's a record)

[RRR3]

Kyrie and Worthy being called elite first options :yaohappy:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Imagine thinking Worthy was #1 to Magic's #2.

Better watch more film, boss.

[3ball]

Kyrie and Worthy being called elite first options :yaohappy:

16' Kyrie Playoffs'... 25.2 ppg
16' Bron Playoffs.... 26.3 ppg

Kyrie 16' and 17' Playoffs... 26 on 47%
Kyrie 16' and 17' Finals....... 28 on 46%

Worthy 87' WCF....................... 30 on 64%
Worthy 88' Finals..................... FMVP
Worthy 87' and 89' Playoffs.... Lakers scoring leader, 24-25 ppg
Worthy 84' Finals..................... 22 on 60% (1st playoff appearance)



Ultimately, only MJ could win 3+ rings with a true 2nd option because everyone else needed their sidekick to occasionally get FMVP or 25-30 ppg.. and mj won SIX with a true 2nd option, so he did more with Pippen than anyone could (no one else even got 3)

[Roundball_Rock]

Kyrie and Worthy being called elite first options :yaohappy:

:lol

Fact check time.

Worthy

Career high: 21 PPG
Prime scoring: 20 PPG (1986-1992)
Top 10 scoring seasons: 0
Top 20 scoring seasons: 1 (18th)

This is with playing with Magic--he fell off a cliff without Magic (an elite 1st option would thrive as a 1st option and show dat eliteness...). He also was outscored by Byron Scott in his prime.

Irving scored 27 PPG in 20 games this year but over full seasons where he is qualified for the scoring title his career high scoring rank is 8th (which I am told by 3ball and co. means you suck at scoring). Irving has two top 10 scoring seasons.

These guys are being presented like they are Curry or Westbrook type second options. :lol

[3ball]

:lol

Fact check time.

Worthy

Career high: 21 PPG
Prime scoring: 20 PPG (1986-1992)
Top 10 scoring seasons: 0
Top 20 scoring seasons: 1 (18th)

This is with playing with Magic--he fell off a cliff without Magic (an elite 1st option would thrive as a 1st option and show dat eliteness...). He also was outscored by Byron Scott in his prime.

Irving scored 27 PPG in 20 games this year but over full seasons where he is qualified for the scoring title his career high scoring rank is 8th (which I am told by 3ball and co. means you suck at scoring). Irving has two top 10 scoring seasons.

These guys are being presented like they are Curry or Westbrook type second options. :lol

You're looking at regular season, which is meaningless especially for stacked teams like Worthy's

See the post season numbers in post #4 - teams face higher competition in the playoffs, and therefore needed elite 1st option contributions from Worthy and Kyrie (25-30 ppg on good efficiency, or FMVP)

[SouBeachTalents]

You're looking at regular season, which is meaningless especially for stacked teams like Worthy's

See the post season numbers in post #4 - teams face higher competition in the playoffs, and therefore needed elite 1st option contributions from Worthy and Kyrie (25-30 ppg on good efficiency, or FMVP)
It's funny you mention that, considering Pippen was outscoring the other teams 2nd option on a regular basis

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?482288-Pippen-s-Scoring-Compared-to-Opposing-Sidekicks-in-Title-Runs-(Each-Series)

[Roundball_Rock]

It's funny you mention that, considering Pippen was outscoring the other teams 2nd option on a regular basis

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?482288-Pippen-s-Scoring-Compared-to-Opposing-Sidekicks-in-Title-Runs-(Each-Series)

One of them was...Worthy. :roll:

The excuse he will proffer is efficiency but Pippen was as efficient as the opposing perimeter sidekicks in those series while operating on 1st option caliber usage (26%) while those guys were on 3rd/4th option type usage (22%).

Averages in the Finals/ECF: Pippen 20 on 52%, 26% usage; Perimeter #2's 16 on 53%, 22% usage

[3ball]

It's funny you mention that, considering Pippen was outscoring the other teams 2nd option on a regular basis

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?482288-Pippen-s-Scoring-Compared-to-Opposing-Sidekicks-in-Title-Runs-(Each-Series)

It's common and standard to win with a 2nd option outscoring the opponent's 2nd option

But it's also common for guys to win with their 2nd option outscoring or outplaying everyone by getting FMVP or 25-30 ppg

Infact, no one in three-pointer history won 3 rings without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25-30 ppg.. so they couldn't win 3 with Pippen, let alone 6.. :eek:

Only MJ won 3 with a true 2nd option (no fmvp or 25-30 ppg)

[1987_Lakers]

It's funny you mention that, considering Pippen was outscoring the other teams 2nd option on a regular basis

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?482288-Pippen-s-Scoring-Compared-to-Opposing-Sidekicks-in-Title-Runs-(Each-Series)

:oldlol:

[3ball]

:oldlol:

no one in three-pointer history won 3 rings without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25-30 ppg.. so they couldn't win 3 with Pippen, let alone 6..

Only MJ won 3 with a true 2nd option (no fmvp or 25-30 ppg)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's funny you mention that, considering Pippen was outscoring the other teams 2nd option on a regular basis

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?482288-Pippen-s-Scoring-Compared-to-Opposing-Sidekicks-in-Title-Runs-(Each-Series)

Damn.

Maybe the dumb canadian will invoke Byron Scott next. He's gotta be 1st option material, right? :lol

[3ball]

Damn.

Maybe the dumb canadian will invoke Byron Scott next. He's gotta be 1st option material, right? :lol

no one in history won 3 rings without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25-30 ppg.. so they couldn't win 3 with Pippen, let alone 6..

Only MJ could win with a true 2nd option (no fmvp or 25-30 ppg)

(history... aka modern history/3-pointer basketball)

[1987_Lakers]

Damn.

Maybe the dumb canadian will invoke Byron Scott next. He's gotta be 1st option material, right? :lol

:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn.

Maybe the dumb canadian will invoke Byron Scott next. He's gotta be 1st option material, right? :lol

Hey, if Scott can outscore prime Worthy--an "elite #1"--then surely Scott a clear #1 (what's higher than "elite #1" doe?)!


no one in three-pointer history won 3 rings without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25-30 ppg

:lol at this guy acting like the other team was getting 25-30 PPG. They were getting this: 19, 16, 17, 23, 15, 10.

It also is weak cherry picking that you are known for. Isiah and Kobe won 2 rings with sidekicks who never were first team all-NBA. Why couldn't MJ? See how cherry picking works? :oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

3ball is going be surprised as hell when the nets dont win shit next year. kd isnt a ball dominator, kyrie is an "elite first option", and dinwiddie and levert are "elite 2nd options"

[NBAGOAT]

and imagine thinking worthy is an elite 1st option but prime stat and blake arent. Nash and CP3 didnt win for other help reasons but their 2nd options were great

[97 bulls]

2ball should eventually be afraid to post.

[3ball]

and imagine thinking worthy is an elite 1st option but prime stat and blake arent. Nash and CP3 didnt win for other help reasons but their 2nd options were great

Worthy was the playoff scoring leader for the GOAT offense - the 87' Lakers had the #1 all-time ORtg and Worthy led them on their title run with 24.3 ppg, including 30 on 64% in the WCF.. Then he won FMVP in 88', and led the Lakers in playoff scoring again in 89' (25 ppg) - all with spectacular efficiency

That's elite 1st option scoring by any standard.. And "Big Game James" (known for clutch) could've averaged 30 if he had his own team instead of sharing with other HOF's.. The eye test also shows that Worthy is the most hold-time efficient half-court scorer ever.. no one shredded defenders quicker than Worthy (with footwork that was often too quick to see)

[Roundball_Rock]

Worthy was the playoff scoring leader for the GOAT offense - the 87' Lakers

Worthy 23.6
Magic 21.8
KAJ 19.2
Scott 14.8
Cooper 13.0

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html#all_playoffs_per_game

23.6 on a team that played at a 101.6 pace. If you adjust to the 98' Bulls pace of 89, since you bring them up all the time, 23.6 becomes 20.7 PPG. I thought that type of scoring "sucks"? :oldlol:

Worthy was a 22 PPG scorer in the playoffs in his prime on a team that generated a lot of easy baskets that had other strong scoring threats like Kareem, Magic, even Scott. When Magic, KAJ were gone Worthy got exposed.

Worthy 1991 with Magic: 21/5/4 on 53% TS
Worthy 1992 w/out Magic: 20/6/5 on 49% TS

By 93', age 31, he was done after his 92' injury. He was fine as a #2 option or #3 but he didn't do well as a #1 option.

[NBAGOAT]

Worthy was the playoff scoring leader for the GOAT offense - the 87' Lakers had the #1 all-time ORtg and Worthy led them on their title run with 24.3 ppg, including 30 on 64% in the WCF.. Then he won FMVP in 88', and led the Lakers in playoff scoring again in 89' (25 ppg) - all with spectacular efficiency

That's elite 1st option scoring by any standard.. And "Big Game James" (known for clutch) could've averaged 30 if he had his own team instead of sharing with other HOF's.. The eye test also shows that Worthy is the most hold-time efficient half-court scorer ever.. no one shredded defenders quicker than Worthy (with footwork that was often too quick to see)

stat put up 30ppg in the 2005 playoffs. blake put up 25.5 in 2015. So you're still wrong about nash and paul not having elite 2nd options.

[Hey Yo]

Worthy was the playoff scoring leader for the GOAT offense - the 87' Lakers had the #1 all-time ORtg and Worthy led them on their title run with 24.3 ppg, including 30 on 64% in the WCF.. Then he won FMVP in 88', and led the Lakers in playoff scoring again in 89' (25 ppg) - all with spectacular efficiency

That's elite 1st option scoring by any standard.. And "Big Game James" (known for clutch) could've averaged 30 if he had his own team instead of sharing with other HOF's.. The eye test also shows that Worthy is the most hold-time efficient half-court scorer ever.. no one shredded defenders quicker than Worthy (with footwork that was often too quick to see)
The 3 teams LA faced to get to the Finals that year had a combined record of 118-128.

Safe to say that's probably the worst combined record in modern NBA history.

[3ball]

stat put up 30ppg in the 2005 playoffs. blake put up 25.5 in 2015. So you're still wrong about nash and paul not having elite 2nd options.

We're actually talking 3rd options though - that's what Worthy was behind kareem and magic.. Love and Bosh were also elite 1st options turned into 3rd options

Ultimately, the ball-dominator style needs 1st options as secondary options to win - lebron simply team-hopped to maximize his 1st option teammates, and Nash/CP3/Lillard didn't

[Roundball_Rock]

stat put up 30ppg in the 2005 playoffs. blake put up 25.5 in 2015. So you're still wrong about nash and paul not having elite 2nd options.

Yup and 25 PPG in 07'. For their primes it isn't close.

Amare in the PO 05'-10': 25.5 PPG (24.6 if you include 11' when he was hurt in the PO)
Worthy in the PO 86'-91': 22.2 PPG (22.1 if you include 85')


And "Big Game James" (known for clutch) could've averaged 30 if he had his own team instead of sharing with other HOF's.

We saw Worthy crumble as a #1. How did Amare do without Nash?

Amare 10' with Nash: 23/9/1 62% TS
Amare 11' w/out Nash: 25/8/3 57% TS (26/9 before Carmelo trade, 57% TS)

So Amare's efficiency decreased without Nash but he remained an elite player. He was 2nd team all-NBA and before Carmelo got there was getting MVP talk. Compare that to:

Worthy 1991 with Magic: 21/5/4 on 53% TS
Worthy 1992 w/out Magic: 20/6/5 on 49% TS

[NBAGOAT]

We're actually talking 3rd options though - that's what Worthy was behind kareem and magic.. Love and Bosh were also elite 1st options turned into 3rd options

Ultimately, the ball-dominator style needs 1st options as secondary options to win - lebron simply team-hopped to maximize his 1st option teammates, and Nash/CP3/Lillard didn't

haha dont contradict yourself now you troll. You included worthy in your list of "elite 1st options forced to play 2nd option in a ball-dominator brand of offense". Just admit you were wrong to include worthy initially. It doesnt weaken your overall point that much even though it's a terrible point. We know you never concede on your main point so it's more productive to point out obvious contradictions or exaggerations you make.

[3ball]

Yup and 25 PPG in 07'. For their primes it isn't close.

Amare in the PO 05'-10': 25.5 PPG (24.6 if you include 11' when he was hurt in the PO)
Worthy in the PO 86'-91': 22.2 PPG (22.1 if you include 85')



We saw Worthy crumble as a #1. How did Amare do without Nash?

Amare 10' with Nash: 23/9/1 62% TS
Amare 11' w/out Nash: 25/8/3 57% TS (26/9 before Carmelo trade, 57% TS)

So Amare's efficiency decreased without Nash but he remained an elite player. He was 2nd team all-NBA and before Carmelo got there was getting MVP talk. Compare that to:

Worthy 1991 with Magic: 21/5/4 on 53% TS
Worthy 1992 w/out Magic: 20/6/5 on 49% TS
Lebron lost with Shaq in 2010

That's what you sound like when you post Worthy's stats in 92', when he was obviously declining

And Amar'e < Wade, Kyrie, AD, Worthy, Kareem and probably Bosh/Love too

So I don't know what your point is there

The issue is that the ball-dominator style needs elite 1st options as 2nd and 3rd options to win - guys like Magic and Lebron held out or team-hopped to acquire this help, while CP3 and Nash didn't

[Roundball_Rock]

That's what you sound like when you post Worthy's stats in 92', when he was obviously declining

So in the 91' finals/playoffs he is awesome, a vastly better 2nd option than Pippen but by 92' (his age 30 season) he is washed up? :roll:

Worthy was still a good player in 92'--he simply got exposed under greater defensive attention, volume, and without Magic spoon feeding him cake baskets. Amare remained elite without Nash since he was a legitimate #1 caliber offensive player (in the "#1 on a contender" sense--Worthy was fine if you want to go .500 with a team that was in the finals with Magic).

[3ball]

So in the 91' finals/playoffs he is awesome, a vastly better 2nd option than Pippen but by 92' (his age 30 season) he is washed up? :roll:

Worthy was still a good player in 92'--he simply got exposed under greater defensive attention, volume, and without Magic spoon feeding him cake baskets. Amare remained elite without Nash since he was a legitimate #1 caliber offensive player (in the "#1 on a contender" sense--Worthy was fine if you want to go .500 with a team that was in the finals with Magic).

despite being old and injured, Worthy still got his regular season averages on Pippen, and was outscoring him easily through 3 games before getting re-injured in Game 4.

91' Worthy was all-nba and had a reputation for leading numerous champions to victory

Otoh, Pippen wasn't an all-star and a relative nobody - he'd disappointed for 3 straight playoffs and a lot of people wrote him off heading into 1991 or didn't know about him at all... everyone considered "Big Game James" to be better than soft Pippen before the 91' playoffs

[Roundball_Rock]

91' Worthy was all-nba

Yeah, he made a whopping two all-NBA third teams in his career.

All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Worthy 0
All-NBA 1st/2nd: Pippen 5, Worthy 0

:pimp:

[3ball]

Yeah, he made a whopping two all-NBA third teams in his career.

All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Worthy 0
All-NBA 1st/2nd: Pippen 5, Worthy 0

:pimp:

But how many all-nba, all-star, and rings as of 1991, which is when they met in the Finals?

Advantage Worthy.. by a mile.. :pimp:

Break point 3ball

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol at comparing a guy who had been in the NBA for 9 years versus a guy who had been there for 4 years.

Through 9 seasons:

Worthy: 2x all-NBA third team, 0x top 10 MVP
Pippen: 3x all-NBA first team, 1x all-NBA second team, 1x all-NBA third; 2x top five MVP finishes and 4x top 10 MVP finishes, Dream Teamer (Worthy wasn't even considered)

Not even close.

You guys are becoming a joke with Worthy, PG, and all these clearly inferior players and then the gymnastics required to defend the original position.

[3ball]

:lol at comparing a guy who had been in the NBA for 9 years versus a guy who had been there for 4 years.



^^^ that's the comparison - 91' Worthy vs 91' Pippen.. veteran FMVP vs young puppy.. that's why everyone viewed Worthy as superior in 1991 heading into the Playoffs

Worthy's superiority at that time and experienced confidence is why an injured Worthy still got his normal averages against Pippen and led the Lakers in Finals ppg





Through 9 seasons:




Did the 91' Finals happen 9 seasons in or 4 seasons in?


Quit making up your own rules..

[FromDowntown]

HOL UP

Didnt Mike's #2 option outscore their opponents #2 option in 5 of 6 Finals?

#CheckMateSon

[3ball]

HOL UP

Didnt Mike's #2 option outscore their opponents #2 option in 5 of 6 Finals?

#CheckMateSon

And the bulls still had the lowest-scoring casts ever to win - so either the remaining cast was poor at scoring, or pippen wasn't scoring enough to make up for these weaker 3-12 options..

it's both, because the #3-12 guys couldn't score, but Pippen also should've scored more given his volume (weak efficiency.. a bricklayer, westbrooker-type).

[Roundball_Rock]

Compare the scoring, volume, and efficiency data yourself. Note: Pippen played only 7 minutes in Game 5 of the ECF so I excluded that.

Pippen Scoring Compared to Opposing Sidekicks in Finals, ECFs

1991 ECF: Pippen 22 on 56% TS 28% usage, Dumars 13 on 45% TS 18% usage
1991 Finals: Pippen 21 on 53% 26% usage, Worthy 19 on 50% 25% usage
1992 ECF: Pippen 20 on 54% 26% usage, Daughtery 18 on 55% 20% usage (a center)
1992 Finals: Pippen 21 on 56% 25% usage, Porter 16 on 57% 17% usage
1993 Finals: Pippen 21 on 46% 28% usage, Johnson 17 on 49% 23% usage
1996 ECF: Pippen 19 on 51% 23% usage, Penny 26 on 55% 29% usage
1996 Finals: Pippen 16 on 43% 22% usage, Kemp 23 on 63% 27% usage (a PF)
1997 ECF: Pippen 21 on 52% 27% usage, Mourning 16 on 56% 25% usage (a center)
1997 Finals: Pippen 20 on 54% 26% usage, Stockton 15 on 61% 21% usage
1998 ECF: Pippen 17 on 46% 26% usage, Smits 16 on 63% 23% usage (a center)
1998 Finals: Pippen 17 on 50%* 23% usage, Stockton 10 54% 19% usage
Averages: Pippen 20 on 52%, 26% usage; Opposing #2 17 on 55%, 22% usage
Averages: Pippen 20 on 52%, 26% usage; Perimeter #2's 16 on 53%, 22% usage

So Pippen is operating on #1 option type usage (26% isn't #1 with MJ but would be on a random team) while the other guys are on #3-#4 option type volume and the gap in efficiency for the perimeter players is 1%?

This is the deception with efficiency, comparing Pippen at #1 option level usage to low usage on the other side. If Pippen had 18-19% usage he would shoot much more efficient too--that is common sense. The difference is Pippen could score 19-21 on solid efficiency against the best teams at that volume. If, say, Stockton tried to score on 26% volume his efficiency would go down the toilet due to the lack of the skill set required.

*20 PPG on 57% TS in fully healthy games (Games 1-4).

[MrFonzworth]

DaHeezy going in:applause:

[3ball]

Compare the scoring, volume, and efficiency data yourself. Note: Pippen played only 7 minutes in Game 5 of the ECF so I excluded that.

Pippen Scoring Compared to Opposing Sidekicks in Finals, ECFs

1991 ECF: Pippen 22 on 56% TS 28% usage, Dumars 13 on 45% TS 18% usage
1991 Finals: Pippen 21 on 53% 26% usage, Worthy 19 on 50% 25% usage
1992 ECF: Pippen 20 on 54% 26% usage, Daughtery 18 on 55% 20% usage (a center)
1992 Finals: Pippen 21 on 56% 25% usage, Porter 16 on 57% 17% usage
1993 Finals: Pippen 21 on 46% 28% usage, Johnson 17 on 49% 23% usage
1996 ECF: Pippen 19 on 51% 23% usage, Penny 26 on 55% 29% usage
1996 Finals: Pippen 16 on 43% 22% usage, Kemp 23 on 63% 27% usage (a PF)
1997 ECF: Pippen 21 on 52% 27% usage, Mourning 16 on 56% 25% usage (a center)
1997 Finals: Pippen 20 on 54% 26% usage, Stockton 15 on 61% 21% usage
1998 ECF: Pippen 17 on 46% 26% usage, Smits 16 on 63% 23% usage (a center)
1998 Finals: Pippen 17 on 50%* 23% usage, Stockton 10 54% 19% usage
Averages: Pippen 20 on 52%, 26% usage; Opposing #2 17 on 55%, 22% usage
Averages: Pippen 20 on 52%, 26% usage; Perimeter #2's 16 on 53%, 22% usage

So Pippen is operating on #1 option type usage (26% isn't #1 with MJ but would be on a random team) while the other guys are on #3-#4 option type volume and the gap in efficiency for the perimeter players is 1%?

This is the deception with efficiency, comparing Pippen at #1 option level usage to low usage on the other side. If Pippen had 18-19% usage he would shoot much more efficient too--that is common sense. The difference is Pippen could score 19-21 on solid efficiency against the best teams at that volume. If, say, Stockton tried to score on 26% volume his efficiency would go down the toilet due to the lack of the skill set required.

*20 PPG on 57% TS in fully healthy games (Games 1-4).

^^^ so Pippen was barely matching the opponent's 2nd option despite much higher usage/volume... :facepalm:..

And obviosly, his higher volume than other 2nd options meant the Bulls had no 3rd option and less firepower than opponents.. yet pippen was barely matching other 2nd options despite far higher volume!!... And he was actually outscored many times by a lower usage 2nd option... :facepalm:

Your data continues to make the case against Pippen.. :applause:

And you excluded ORtg, aka points produced per possession, aka production rate (it includes assists)

[Shooter]

HOL UP

Didnt Mike's #2 option outscore their opponents #2 option in 5 of 6 Finals?

#CheckMateSon

Close'r up bois

[Roundball_Rock]

so Pippen was barely matching the opponent's 2nd option despite much higher usage/volume

Pippen scored 25% more on 18% more volume compared to opposing perimeter second options. That's pretty impressive--since we know the pro-rated numbers for those guys would nose-dive if they sniffed 26% usage. That is why they had to cocoon themselves into 3rd/4th/5th option usage they could handle.

The bigger the stage, the bigger Jackson dialed up Pippen's usage. :rockon:


his higher volume than other 2nd options meant the Bulls had no 3rd option

It is nonsensical to compare the scoring of 3rd/4th options when one team has two superstars and the other team was one.

[3ball]

Close'r up bois

Thread Cliffs (per Round Ball)

Despite a weaker cast that allowed Pippen much higher volume than other 2nd options, Pippen barely matched opposing 2nd options because his shooting efficiency and efficiency per possession was piss-poor... aka a bricklayer, a westbrooker

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen scored 25% more on 18% more volume compared to opposing perimeter second options while shooting essentially the same efficiency. That's pretty impressive--since we know the pro-rated numbers for those guys would nose-dive if they sniffed 26% usage. That is why they had to cocoon themselves into 3rd/4th/5th option usage they could handle.

The "cast" excuse doesn't work--these players just shrunk on the big stage. Porter was 24 PPG through three rounds before the finals lights came on.Utah didn't even have a real 2nd option (12 PPG average in the two finals from their "2") and you are talking 3rd option?

I know facts are tough for you. :lol

[3ball]

Your stats are false because Pippen averaged 12 on 42% against the Pistons from 88-90'

So better redo those stats

And Pippen's stats were elevated from playing with someone that attracted attention like the goat, while also benefitting from the system, which he was nothing without

[Smoke117]

1-9

[3ball]

1-9

It's appropriate that the biggest criticism of the goat is that he lost with the biggest odds possible during his rookie years (8 vs 1 matchup)

:bowdown:

Otoh, Lebron's 30 to 40-win teams were lucky to miss the playoffs and 8 seed in 04', 05', and 19'.. So he never faced the 8 vs 1 matchup

[Tobio-Star]

It's appropriate that the biggest criticism of the goat is that he lost with the biggest odds possible during his rookie years
:bowdown:



I could have sworn that LeBron won his first chip at 27

[Smoke117]

It's appropriate that the biggest criticism of the goat is that he lost with the biggest odds possible during his rookie years (8 vs 1 matchup)

:bowdown:

Otoh, Lebron's 30 to 40-win teams were lucky to miss the playoffs and 8 seed in 04', 05', and 19'.. So he never faced the 8 vs 1 matchup

lol make up your mind. You tell us Orlando Woolridge is better than Pippen and he averaged 23ppg on 60%ts during Jordans rookie season. 8 vs 1, huh? Five less points than your hero while doing it on better efficiency.

[Roundball_Rock]

lol make up your mind. You tell us Orlando Woolridge is better than Pippen and he averaged 23ppg on 60%ts during Jordans rookie season. 8 vs 1, huh? Five less points than your hero while doing it on better efficiency.

:lol the hypocrisy never ends from 2ball and his mini-2balls.

[3ball]

lol make up your mind. You tell us Orlando Woolridge is better than Pippen and he averaged 23ppg on 60%ts during Jordans rookie season. 8 vs 1, huh? Five less points than your hero while doing it on better efficiency.
MJ didn't win with Woolridge because it wasn't a 2-star vs 2-star format like the 90's were - you needed many HOF's and a dynasty to win the 80's East

So Pippen was just lucky that he arrived when 2-star teams were routinely contenders, so he could win 6 alongside the goat.. the goat + anyone will dominate a 2-star format

[97 bulls]

MJ didn't win with Woolridge because it wasn't a 2-star vs 2-star format like the 90's were - you needed many HOF's and a dynasty to win the 80's East

So Pippen was just lucky that he arrived when 2-star teams were routinely contenders, so he could win 6 alongside the goat.. the goat + anyone will dominate a 2-star format

But the Bulls beat the Pistons and the Lakers in 91. With theirn2 stars.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ didn't win with Woolridge because it wasn't a 2-star vs 2-star format like the 90's were - you needed many HOF's and a dynasty to win the 80's East

2ball in another thread going on at the same time:


I agree that the 90's Bulls would win 2-3 in the 80's


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?482501-Nobody-won-3-rings-without-their-sidekick-getting-a-FMVP-or-25-30-ppg-so

[3ball]

2ball in another thread going on at the same time:



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?482501-Nobody-won-3-rings-without-their-sidekick-getting-a-FMVP-or-25-30-ppg-so

I reduced MJ's ring count from 6 to 2 because the 80's required stacked teams to win

That's what the reduction was for - to account for this difference

And we've already discussed how Woolridge didn't have the time or system to grow a team with MJ... like Pippen did

Give Woolridge the same time and system that Pippen got, and he'd win with MJ in the 80's or 90's.. 2 in the 80's and at least twice that in the 90's

Heck, almost anyone would've won with MJ in 89', when they almost beat the Pistons with Pippen getting 9 on 40%... So anyone replacing Pippen would've won

But he wouldn't win 6 in the 80's because you needed juggernauts to win in the 80's

[NBAGOAT]

I reduced MJ's ring count from 6 to 2 because the 80's required stacked teams to win

That's what the reduction was for - to account for this difference

And we've already discussed how Woolridge didn't have the time or system to grow a team with MJ... like Pippen did

Give Woolridge the same time and system that Pippen got, and he'd win with MJ in the 80's or 90's.. 2 in the 80's and at least twice that in the 90's

Heck, almost anyone would've won with MJ in 89', when they almost beat the Pistons with Pippen getting 9 on 40%... So anyone replacing Pippen would've won

But he wouldn't win 6 in the 80's because you needed juggernauts to win in the 80's

you need juggernauts to win in the 80's but you've said many times mj didnt have juggernaut teams. Unless you're saying he's that much better than bird/magic that he's an exception you're contradicting yourself.

[3ball]

you need juggernauts to win in the 80's but you've said many times mj didnt have juggernaut teams. Unless you're saying he's that much better than bird/magic that he's an exception you're contradicting yourself.

That's why I said he'd win 2 or 3 in the 80's, not 6..

MJ can overcome superior talent, but not 6 times.. maybe 2-3 times sounds about right

Heck, 1989 didn't require 3 offensive stars, so MJ would've won that year with ANYONE other than Pippen - they almost beat the Pistons with Pippen getting 9 on 40%

But ultimately, if a sidekick like Woolridge, X-man or Pippen had the time to grow a team with MJ in the early 80's like Pippen did in the late 80's, then they would win at least 2 rings, including the gimme in 1989

[Roundball_Rock]

you need juggernauts to win in the 80's but you've said many times mj didnt have juggernaut teams. Unless you're saying he's that much better than bird/magic that he's an exception you're contradicting yourself.

:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

That's why I said he'd win 2 or 3 in the 80's, not 6..

MJ can overcome superior talent, but not 6 times.. maybe 2-3 times sounds about right

Heck, 1989 didn't require 3 offensive stars, so MJ would've won that year with ANYONE other than Pippen - they almost beat the Pistons with Pippen getting 9 on 40%

But ultimately, if a sidekick like Woolridge, X-man or Pippen had the time to grow a team with MJ in the early 80's like Pippen did in the late 80's, then they would win at least 2 rings, including the gimme in 1989
Nah, Jordan did not play well down the stretch of that series. After the Bulls took a 2-1 lead, he finished the series

With a very mediocre 23/2/4 on 5/15 performance in Game 4

Taking a grand total of 8 shots in Game 5

And while admittedly having a big game production wise, had 8 turnovers and shot a horrific 5/12 from the FT line in Game 6

Considering they lost the last 3 games all by single digits, suffice to say that was a series the Bulls really could've won had Jordan played up to his usual standards

[NBAGOAT]

That's why I said he'd win 2 or 3 in the 80's, not 6..

MJ can overcome superior talent, but not 6 times.. maybe 2-3 times sounds about right

Heck, 1989 didn't require 3 offensive stars, so MJ would've won that year with ANYONE other than Pippen - they almost beat the Pistons with Pippen getting 9 on 40%

But ultimately, if a sidekick like Woolridge, X-man or Pippen had the time to grow a team with MJ in the early 80's like Pippen did in the late 80's, then they would win at least 2 rings, including the gimme in 1989

no dont try to weasel your way out. when woolridge gets pointed out, your exact point was two stars cant win in the 80s because of the starpower in 80s east. Now you're saying he can overcome superior talent 2-3 times. Okay then at least admit he failed to overcome it his rookie year. You're trapped you wont admit it but also you dont want to concede pippen>woolridge because that destroys your points about only scoring mattering and/or conceding maybe mj's rookie year isnt mvp level.

that one guy underperforming making a difference like pippen scoring 9ppg can used for literally hundreds of series in bad faith including many vs the Bulls. Maybe give some credit to the pistons, they were pretty great on defense if you didnt know and are no "gimme".

[Roundball_Rock]

no dont try to weasel your way out. when woolridge gets pointed out, your exact point was two stars cant win in the 80s because of the starpower in 80s east. Now you're saying he can overcome superior talent 2-3 times. Okay then at least admit he failed to overcome it his rookie year. You're trapped you wont admit it but also you dont want to concede pippen>woolridge because that destroys your points about only scoring mattering and/or conceding maybe mj's rookie year isnt mvp level.

that one guy underperforming making a difference like pippen scoring 9ppg can used for literally hundreds of series in bad faith including many vs the Bulls. Maybe give some credit to the pistons, they were pretty great on defense if you didnt know and are no "gimme".

:applause:

Plus what he never tells you about 9 PPG is Pippen got hurt 1 minute into Game 6 and went 0/0/0 in that 1 minute. However, since he played, that game counts towards his averages. Pippen was not good in the series--12/9/4 in full games--but 2ball being 2ball he can't simply use that to make the same point. He has to use chicanery to make bad look even worse.

In the 91' ECF Dumars was 13/2/3 as an experienced player (not a second year player) in his peak age years (27). 2ball never mentions that.

[3ball]

Nah, Jordan did not play well down the stretch of that series. After the Bulls took a 2-1 lead, he finished the series

With a very mediocre 23/2/4 on 5/15 performance in Game 4

Taking a grand total of 8 shots in Game 5

And while admittedly having a big game production wise, had 8 turnovers and shot a horrific 5/12 from the FT line in Game 6

Considering they lost the last 3 games all by single digits, suffice to say that was a series the Bulls really could've won had Jordan played up to his usual standards

Yes MJ didn't play his best in game 4, but he fell off because there was no sidekick - Pippen was getting 9 on 40% so the Pistons started throwing 5 guys at MJ

This is common knowledge.. you've heard of the "Jordan Rules" right?.. they were successful because Jordan had no viable teammates and was forced to go 1-on-5 (pippen averaged 9 on 40%)

You should understand that 80's MJ had a completely accolade-less cast

So unlike 07' Lebron, MJ didn't have a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 all-defender wing, and the coach of the year (Zydrunas, Hughes, Coach Brown)

And unlike 10' Lebron, MJ didn't have an all-star guard, 2-time all-star forward, or all-defender forward (Mo, Jamison, Varejao)

Lebron's superior cast explains why he won more games despite less personal stats, aka lebron's 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47... Or 35/6/6 won 50... Or 37/5/5 won 42... Jordan's 80's casts infact compare to lebron's lottery casts from 04/05/19 (actually, they were all better than Jordan's casts too)

[NBAGOAT]

:applause:

Plus what he never tells you about 9 PPG is Pippen got hurt 1 minute into Game 6 and went 0/0/0 in that 1 minute. However, since he played, that game counts towards his averages. Pippen was not good in the series--12/9/4 in full games--but 2ball being 2ball he can't simply use that to make the same point. He has to use chicanery to make bad look even worse.

In the 91' ECF Dumars was 13/2/3 as an experienced player (not a second year player) in his peak age years (27). 2ball never mentions that.

yea even though many of their main guys were around 30, people know the pistons were kind of aging and declining that year. If they were all really still in their primes they would've won more than 48 games the next year. ofc that was an era where it was decently likely you were close to the end of your career when you turned 30.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is common knowledge.. you've heard of the "Jordan Rules" right?.. they were successful because Jordan had no viable teammates and was forced to go 1-on-5

More BS from 2ball. Here is the real story about the Jordan Rules and the 89' ECF:


In fact, the 46-point performance came when the Jordan Rules weren't in effect, Daly and his staff having called them off before the playoffs because they were concerned about the scoring of Chicago forwards Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. But after Jordan's Game 3 performance gave the Bulls a 2-1 series lead, the Piston players, led by Isiah Thomas, urged Daly to reinstitute the rules. He did, and Detroit won the three ensuing games as Jordan struggled to score 23, 18 and 32 points.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1989/11/06/mission-impossible-no-one-shuts-down-michael-jordan-but-the-champion-detroit-pistons-have-developed-an-intricate-defensive-system-called-the-jordan-rules-that-comes-close-to-containing-him

Detroit had elite wing defenders to throw at MJ in Dumars at SG and Rodman.


yea even though many of their main guys were around 30, people know the pistons were kind of aging and declining that year. If they were all really still in their primes they would've won more than 48 games the next year. ofc that was an era where it was decently likely you were close to the end of your career when you turned 30.

Agree--although Dumars remained good. He was an all-star as late as 97' and his best years were in the early 90's. He just had a bad series. It happens, especially when we are talking 4, 5, 6, or 7 game samples. It isn't as if Dumars had a history of doing that in big series but 2ball will never say anything about opposing sidekicks in the series he talks about all the time.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes MJ didn't play his best in game 4, but he fell off because there was no sidekick - Pippen was getting 9 on 40% so the Pistons started throwing 5 guys at MJ

This is common knowledge.. you've heard of the "Jordan Rules" right?.. they were successful because Jordan had no viable teammates and was forced to go 1-on-5 (pippen averaged 9 on 40%)

You should understand that 80's MJ had a completely accolade-less cast

So unlike 07' Lebron, MJ didn't have a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 all-defender wing, and the coach of the year (Zydrunas, Hughes, Coach Brown)

And unlike 10' Lebron, MJ didn't have an all-star guard, 2-time all-star forward, or all-defender forward (Mo, Jamison, Varejao)

Lebron's superior cast explains why he won more games despite less personal stats, aka lebron's 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47... Or 35/6/6 won 50... Or 37/5/5 won 42... Jordan's 80's casts infact compare to lebron's lottery casts from 04/05/19 (actually, they were all better than Jordan's casts too)
What does LeBron have to do with anything? I find it very interesting LeBron is literally always the bench mark you use in comparisons with Jordan, legit never a peep about Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq :lol Says a lot tbh

[NBAGOAT]

More BS from 2ball. Here is the real story about the Jordan Rules and the 89' ECF:



https://vault.si.com/vault/1989/11/06/mission-impossible-no-one-shuts-down-michael-jordan-but-the-champion-detroit-pistons-have-developed-an-intricate-defensive-system-called-the-jordan-rules-that-comes-close-to-containing-him

Detroit had elite wing defenders to throw at MJ in Dumars at SG and Rodman.



Agree--although Dumars remained good. He was an all-star as late as 97' and his best years were in the early 90's. He just had a bad series. It happens, especially when we are talking 4, 5, 6, or 7 game samples. It isn't as if Dumars had a history of doing that in big series but 2ball will never say anything about opposing sidekicks in the series he talks about all the time.

yea dumars and rodman werent declining, i mean the others

[Roundball_Rock]

yea dumars and rodman werent declining, i mean the others

Agreed. It is surprising how quickly they declined. The Bulls played them each year so we can use them as a benchmark.

Pistons vs. Bulls 1988-1991: 4-1, 4-2, 4-3, 0-4

So they were losing a game each year but then fell off a cliff in 91'. They still made the ECF but got crushed by the Bulls. They didn't make it out the first round after 91'.

[3ball]

yea even though many of their main guys were around 30, people know the pistons were kind of aging and declining that year. If they were all really still in their primes they would've won more than 48 games the next year. ofc that was an era where it was decently likely you were close to the end of your career when you turned 30.

- Isiah/Dumars/Rodman were 29/27/29 when MJ beat them in 91'

- Garnett/Allen/Pierce were 35/36/32 when lebron beat them (with a Big 3 super-team)

- Duncan/Ginobili/Parker were 35/36/32 when lebron beat them (with a Big 3 super-team)

NO COMPARISON

Also, Pippen averaged 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons - 3 straight years of choking and costing MJ rings... Thos is a travesty because do you know how great MJ was at the time? How about a 35/6/6 DPOY? How about 33/8/8?... Pippen lost with this guy, but he's an all-time great?... Horseshit...

MJ built Pippen and Pippen was completely carried.. the stats clearly shows this.. MJ shouldn't have to score 5 more than everyone in history AND assist 33% more often than Pippen, but Pippen made him do this.. so Pippen sucks and we already know that he's the lowest producer EVER in the clutch (down the stretch of tight games).. virtually zero clutch burden - MJ was tasked with doing it all down the stretch.. the GOAT clutch player and it isn't remotely close

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol at blaming Pippen for 88', when as MJ fans are usually quick to point out, Pippen was a role player. He was the 4th option in the series.

1990? Pippen 17/6/4, Grant 12/12/2. Dumars was 20/2/4 and Aguirre 12/6/2. That's 29/18/6 from Pippen/Grant compared to 32/8/6 from Dumars/Aguirre. Pippen and Grant weren't great but they weren't non-entities either.

2ball inadvertently admits the Bulls didn't win until Pippen/Grant began convincingly outplaying the opposing #2/#3.

1991: Pippen 22/8/5, Grant 14/8/2; Dumars 13/2/3, Aguirre 17/3/1.

[3ball]

More BS from 2ball. Here is the real story about the Jordan Rules and the 89' ECF:



https://vault.si.com/vault/1989/11/06/mission-impossible-no-one-shuts-down-michael-jordan-but-the-champion-detroit-pistons-have-developed-an-intricate-defensive-system-called-the-jordan-rules-that-comes-close-to-containing-him

Detroit had elite wing defenders to throw at MJ in Dumars at SG and Rodman.



That's exactly what my post said - they instituted the Jordan Rules to stop Jordan

And they had some success because Jordan had no viable teammates and was forced to go 1-on-5 (pippen averaged 9 on 40%)

You should understand that 80's MJ had a completely accolade-less cast

So unlike 07' Lebron, MJ didn't have a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 all-defender wing, and the coach of the year (Zydrunas, Hughes, Coach Brown)

And unlike 10' Lebron, MJ didn't have an all-star guard, 2-time all-star forward, or all-defender forward (Mo, Jamison, Varejao)

Lebron's superior cast explains why he won more games despite less personal stats, aka lebron's 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47... Or 35/6/6 won 50... Or 37/5/5 won 42... Jordan's 80's casts infact compare to lebron's lottery casts from 04/05/19 (actually, they were all better than Jordan's casts too)

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan had no viable teammates and was forced to go 1-on-5


In fact, the 46-point performance came when the Jordan Rules weren't in effect, Daly and his staff having called them off before the playoffs because they were concerned about the scoring of Chicago forwards Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. But after Jordan's Game 3 performance gave the Bulls a 2-1 series lead, the Piston players, led by Isiah Thomas, urged Daly to reinstitute the rules. He did, and Detroit won the three ensuing games as Jordan struggled to score 23, 18 and 32 points.

No viable teammates, doe. :lol

[3ball]

:lol at blaming Pippen for 88', when as MJ fans are usually quick to point out, Pippen was a role player. He was the 4th option in the series.

1990? Pippen 17/6/4, Grant 12/12/2. Dumars was 20/2/4 and Aguirre 12/6/2. That's 29/18/6 from Pippen/Grant compared to 32/8/6 from Dumars/Aguirre. Pippen and Grant weren't great but they weren't non-entities either.

2ball inadvertently admits the Bulls didn't win until Pippen/Grant began convincingly outplaying the opposing #2/#3.

1991: Pippen 22/8/5, Grant 14/8/2; Dumars 13/2/3, Aguirre 17/3/1.

Pippen averaged 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons - 3 straight years of choking and costing MJ rings... This is a travesty because do you know how great MJ was at the time? How about a 35/6/6 DPOY? How about 33/8/8?... Pippen lost with this guy, but he's an all-time great?... Horseshit... Any other so-called "star" wins with the goat as a teammate

MJ built Pippen and Pippen was completely carried.. the stats clearly shows this.. MJ shouldn't have to score 5 more than everyone in history AND assist 33% more often than Pippen, but Pippen made him do this.. so Pippen sucks and we already know that he's the lowest producer EVER in the clutch (down the stretch of tight games).. virtually zero clutch burden - MJ was tasked with doing it all down the stretch.. the GOAT clutch player and it isn't remotely close

[Roundball_Rock]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/a41b26e908e99b69688706b95771cc58/tenor.gif?itemid=8587495

[3ball]

No viable teammates, doe. :lol

Pippen averaged 9 on 40% in that series.. So yes, no viable teammates..

You should understand that 80's MJ had a completely accolade-less cast

So unlike 07' Lebron, MJ didn't have a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 all-defender wing, and the coach of the year (Zydrunas, Hughes, Coach Brown)

And unlike 10' Lebron, MJ didn't have an all-star guard, 2-time all-star forward, all-defender forward, or coach of the year (Mo, Jamison, Varejao, Coach brown)

Lebron's superior cast explains why he won more games despite less personal stats, aka lebron's 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47... Or 35/6/6 won 50... Or 37/5/5 won 42... Jordan's 80's casts infact compare to lebron's lottery casts from 04/05/19 (actually, they were all better than Jordan's casts too)

[NBAGOAT]

Isiah/Dumars/Rodman were 29/27/29 in 1991 when MJ beat them


Garnett/Allen/Pierce were 35/36/32 when lebron beat them (with a Big 3 super-team)

Duncan/Ginobili/Parker were 35/36/32 when lebron beat them (with a Big 3 super-team)

NO COMPARISON

Also, Pippen averaged 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons - 3 straight years of choking and costing MJ rings... Do you have any idea how great MJ was at the time? How about a 35/6/6 DPOY? How about 33/8/8?... Pippen lost with this guy, but he's an all-time great?... Horseshit... MJ built Pippen and Pippen was completely carried.. the stats clearly shows this.. MJ shouldn't have to score 5 more than everyone in history AND assist 33% more often, but Pippen made him do this.. so Pippen sucks and we already know that he's the lowest-scoring EVER in the clutch (down the stretch of tight games)

as soubeach said why are you bringing up lebron haha, i thought this thread was about 80's guys. You do sound legitimately angry about pippen "costing mj rings". You do realize mj has to go through the celtics/lakers in 88 and the blazers in 90.

I'll respond anyway for one could you provide any statistical backing for mj assisting "33% more often". I'm assuming you mean more than any other star i dont think a single stat shows that. Other guys have put up scoring in individual series though not sustained like mj and lost, it's disappointing but doesnt make their 2nd option a scrub. are klay and cp3 not all time greats because curry put up 31/5/6 and lost and harden put up 34/7/5.5 and lost. amare put up 37/10 and the suns lost in 5, that's not even a huge indictment against nash.

Onto the pistons you know a player's lonegvity has improved. 30 in 1991 is not 30 in 2015. Also no one isnt claiming the celtics and spurs werent old. what you purposely not mention is the celtics also had an all star pg in rondo and the spurs had insane depth. You know laimbeer aguirre etc were declining in 91.

[3ball]

You do sound legitimately angry about pippen "costing mj rings". You do realize mj has to go through the celtics/lakers in 88 and the blazers in 90.



Playoff record vs Pistons in 89' and 90'

Bulls......... 5-8
League... 2-22


You forget that the 90' Blazers lost to the Pistons in 5 easy games, while the Bulls went 7 games, so the Bulls would've beaten the Blazers..

And the 89' Lakers were injured, so the bulls easily beat them.. but pippen's 9 on 40% prevented the bulls from making the Finals





statistical backing for mj assisting "33% more often".



Career Playoff Assist Percentage

Jordan... 28%
Pippen... 21%


You forget that MJ can't assist on his own shot volume - and since his volume was much higher than Pippen's, there were less available shots for him to assist on, hence the higher assist percentage (33% higher)

But MJ still led in apg for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (88', 89', 90', 91', 93', 97')

And btw, if we just look at the 91-93' playoffs or the 96-98' playoffs, Jordan leads Pippen in assist percentage for both 3-peats

[NBAGOAT]

Playoff record vs Pistons in 89' and 90'

Bulls......... 5-8
League... 2-22


You forget that the 90' Blazers lost to the Pistons in 5 easy games, while the Bulls went 7 games, so the Bulls would've beaten the Blazers.. And 90' Jordan averages 40 vs Drexler instead of only 36 like 92'..




Career Playoff Assist Percentage

Jordan... 28%
Pippen... 21%


You forget that MJ can't assist on his own shot volume - and since his volume was much higher than Pippen's, there were less available shots for him to assist on, hence the higher assist percentage (33% higher)

But MJ still led in apg for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (88', 89', 90', 91', 93', 97')

oh you mean 33% more than his teammate. well that's not a can of worms you want to open :lol. Plenty of lead guys have assisted more than 50% more often than the 2nd assist guy.

[3ball]

l. Plenty of lead guys have assisted more than 50% more often than the 2nd assist guy.




But they weren't also doubling the sidekick's scoring

Jordan doubled Pippen's scoring while assisting 33% more

and winning the title

That's my point - lebron needed an equal scoring partner to win - he only averaged 2-5 more than his sidekick in Finals wins, compared to 10-20 for Jordan..

and Wade/Kyrie were also matching Lebron in possession usage.. equal scoring and usage = shared load, whereas MJ had carry-jobs (big gap in scoring and usage)

Ultimately, nobody won 3 rings without their sidekick getting a FMVP or 25-30 ppg, so they couldn't win 3 with Pippen, let alone 6

[red1]

OP we've been through this many times already. pippen was able to lead the bulls to 55-wins without jordan. thats the definition of stacked.



how many games do you think kuzma and AD would win without lebron? they'd be the pelicans 2.0 - a far cry from the 55 win bulls. :oldlol:

[3ball]

But they weren't also doubling the sidekick's scoring

Jordan doubled Pippen's scoring while assisting 33% more

and winning the title

That's my point - lebron needed an equal scoring partner to win - he only averaged 2-5 more than his sidekick in Finals wins, compared to 10-20 for Jordan..

and Wade/Kyrie were also matching Lebron in possession usage.. equal scoring and usage = shared load, whereas MJ had carry-jobs (big gap in scoring and usage)

Ultimately, nobody won 3 rings without their sidekick getting a FMVP or 25-30 ppg, so they couldn't win 3 with Pippen, let alone 6

^^^ did this finish you NBAGOAT?

I don't feel a pulse

[red1]

I see OP is still the forum whipping boy - glad some things never change :oldlol:

[3ball]

OP we've been through this many times already. pippen was able to lead the bulls to 55-wins without jordan. thats the definition of stacked.



how many games do you think kuzma and AD would win without lebron? they'd be the pelicans 2.0 - a far cry from the 55 win bulls. :oldlol:

The Lakers must develop goat know-how by 3-peating with AD/Lebron to match the situation 94' Pippen had (the best situation anyone could have)

So your 55-win example means nothing

Everyone knows those bulls won via system and brand/know-how, not talent... That's why they won 55 with only 22 ppg from Pippen, while the 88' Bulls needed 35/6/6/dpoy to win 50 with Jordan.. the 88' bulls were all rookies, while the 94' Bulls were 3-peat vets.. neither team was talented, bit the 94' bulls had experience and the best brand in the league

[red1]

The Lakers must develop goat know-how by 3-peating with AD/Lebron (with AD still in his prime) to match the situation 94' Pippen had (the best situation anyone could have)

So your 55-win example means nothing

Everyone knows those bulls won via system and brand/know-how, not talent

cool.


they still won 55-games losing jordan in his prime and replacing him with nothing. the definition of stacked. :oldlol:

[red1]

3ball you've made more excuses than any poster in the history of the board. newsflash - jordan wasn't a one-man team.



in fact he played on a stacked roster. against relatively weak competition. I dont see any championships over 70-win teams in that trophy case. :oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

^^^ did this finish you NBAGOAT?

I don't feel a pulse

talk about rent free :lol. no i dont have much to say since you finally made a consistent coherent point, maybe your 1st in the last 50 haha and I was watching the nuggets thunder game. You shouldve just started with jordan doubled pippen's scoring and put up 33% more assists. Ofc you insert that at the end to "win" the argument.

And idc about lebron, his 2nd options have given more offensive help and people arent usually arguing otherwise. Pippen's superior defense to the large majority of 2nd options whether it's wade, kyrie, mchale, worthy etc is usually the easy counter than you've never ever disproved. Lebron has assisted 60% more than his 2nd guy however and that's impressive in its own right

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball you've made more excuses than any poster in the history of the board. newsflash - jordan wasn't a one-man team.



in fact he played on a stacked roster. against relatively weak competition. I dont see any championships over 70-win teams in that trophy case. :oldlol:
At least he admits the Bulls only win 2 titles in the 80's, confirming the 90's were weak

[red1]

At least he admits the Bulls only win 2 titles in the 80's, confirming the 90's were weak

a rare moment of honesty :applause:



he acts like jordan was a one man team meanwhile we all know basketball is a team sport and even mj didnt win a single ring without a great, or at least good supporting cast.



the only way 3balls arguments work is if he diminishes pippen to being an incompetent scrub which just isnt true. which is why he's always lying saying things like kevin love is better and that he'd rather have mo williams. mo williams over scottie pippen. :oldlol:



new thread: "hurr durr the ball-dominator jordan brand requires an elite 55-win team to win a ring, hurr durr jordan didnt win a single ring without a top 10 all-time SF and top 5 all-time coach" :oldlol:

[3ball]

jordan wasn't a one-man team.



I'll take Reggie Miller's word for it in 1991 over yours 30 years later

Ditto Isiah and Magic in 1993





in fact he played on a stacked roster.




- Why did he average 10-20 more than his sidekick in every Finals? (with more apg)... Who else is close to this type of carry-job?

- Why did MJ get all 6 FMVP's?.. 2nd place only has 3 FMVP's

- Why is MJ the only guy that beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick?.. MJ beat five good teams with 16 on 40% from his sidekick (or less).. No one else did this even once except Duncan (once)

- Nobody won 3 rings without their sidekick getting a FMVP or 25-30 ppg, so how could anyone win 3 with Pippen???... Let alone 6???.. how come only MJ had to win with a "true" 2nd option?

- Why did MJ have the goat production rate if his team was stacked (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP seasons, PPG)?

[red1]

I'll take Reggie Miller's word for it in 1991 over yours 30 years later

Ditto Isiah and Magic in 1993




- Why did he average 10-20 more than his sidekick in every Finals? (with more apg)... Who else is close to this type of carry-job?

- Why did MJ get all 6 FMVP's?.. 2nd place only has 3 FMVP's

- Why is MJ the only guy that beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick?.. MJ beat five good teams with 16 on 40% from his sidekick (or less).. No one else did this even once except Duncan (once)

- Nobody won 3 rings without their sidekick getting a FMVP or 25-30 ppg, so how could anyone win 3 with Pippen???... Let alone 6???.. how come only MJ had to win with a "true" 2nd option?

- Why did MJ have the goat production rate if his team was stacked (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP seasons, PPG)?

Dude I only troll about mj because I know it triggers you. My only point that you fought and debated me on was always that lebron is top 5 guaranteed I was saying 2nd greatest of all-time already.


You were arguing that he isn't top 15.



You already lost. I already won. And Im not going to stop repeating it.



ring ring ring. :oldlol:


https://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Lebrons+a++butt_f9f73f_4923207.gif


Its great that jordan is your favorite player - it doesnt mean that you have to be such a repetitive fanboy.


90% of your posts are "bron bron bron" and unlike skip you dont get paid or entertain anyone. at least thhkip's shtick is entertaining. :oldlol:

[3ball]

a rare moment of honesty :applause:



he acts like jordan was a one man team meanwhile we all know basketball is a team sport and even mj didnt win a single ring without a great, or at least good supporting cast.



the only way 3balls arguments work is if he diminishes pippen to being an incompetent scrub which just isnt true. which is why he's always lying saying things like kevin love is better and that he'd rather have mo williams. mo williams over scottie pippen. :oldlol:



new thread: "hurr durr the ball-dominator jordan brand requires an elite 55-win team to win a ring, hurr durr jordan didnt win a single ring without a top 10 all-time SF and top 5 all-time coach" :oldlol:

MJ was more of a 1-man team than anyone that ever won 2+ rings

BY FAR

that's why he had to score 10-20 more than his sidekick to win every Finals

every SERIES infact lol

no one is close to this record of carry-job.. show me someone else that compares to the scoring gap with his 2nd option or FMVP count

Again, no one is close

[red1]

one more ring bitch and its consensus top 2 arguable 1. deal with it :roll:



"buh buh ray allen and kyrie"

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oEdv07JVXwhImYGWc/giphy.gif
https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oEdv07JVXwhImYGWc/giphy.gif
https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oEdv07JVXwhImYGWc/giphy.gif

[red1]

MJ was more of a 1-man team than anyone that ever won 2+ rings

BY FAR

that's why he had to score 10-20 more than his sidekick to win every Finals

every SERIES infact lol

no one is close to this record of carry-job.. show me someone else that compares to the scoring gap with his 2nd option or FMVP count

Again, no one is close

disagree. I'll give that one to lebron.


mj and lebron toss-up top-2 players all of time. complete coin toss. can go either way.

[3ball]

one more ring bitch and its consensus top 2 arguable 1. deal with it :roll:



"buh buh ray allen and kyrie"

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oEdv07JVXwhImYGWc/giphy.gif
https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oEdv07JVXwhImYGWc/giphy.gif
https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oEdv07JVXwhImYGWc/giphy.gif

Are you talking about Lebron's fat ass

It's a testament to how weak today's players are that Kawhi and PG couldn't get by Lebron's slow, fat ass

Jordan would blow by him like he's not even there

And then what awaits him.... An open paint... :roll:

12 rings for MJ in today's game

[AirBonner]

Isaiah Thomas had a 29ppg season. Kyrie never had anything close to that. Is IT>Kyrie?

[3ball]

Isaiah Thomas had a 29ppg season. Kyrie never had anything close to that. Is IT>Kyrie?

IT's injury effectively ended his career as a prime player

So we never got to see prime IT with Lebron

And I don't know what IT's playoff stats look like, but I doubt they match Kyrie's from 16 and 17' (26 on 47%... nearly equal scoring with Lebron)

[red1]

just one more ring. already at a respectable 3 rings and now can get up to a healthy 4 rings. and can possibly get a 4th finals MVPs.




Are you talking about Lebron's fat ass

It's a testament to how weak today's players are that Kawhi and PG couldn't get by Lebron's slow, fat ass

Jordan would blow by him like he's not even there

And then what awaits him.... An open paint... :roll:

12 rings for MJ in today's game

I dont know what you're talking about dude kawhi and PG are great defenders and they definitely do give lebron a hard time. I'd love to see them guarding mj and pippen. :oldlol:


there you go with your delusional mythologizing again. the bulls would score more in todays game but that doesnt mean the clippers are trash. you're only saying that because lebron aka the king just beat them. :oldlol:


I feel you still owe me an apology for all of the things you argued with me on. I was right and you were wrong. shout out to kyrie and ray allen. :)


"not top 15 all-time" he said - "kg and moses malone better all-time" he said...





'tards gonna 'tard?


https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P_z80ZWMG7w/WtowYlT0pEI/AAAAAAAAYSg/7WLgvkRE1OEyX0tRsTg-CQjzqj_6_EghACLcBGAs/s1600/KF2CZjJ.gif

[3ball]

disagree. I'll give that one to lebron.


mj and lebron toss-up top-2 players all of time. complete coin toss. can go either way.

Lebron won every Finals with 2-5 more ppg and usage than his sidekick (shared load)

MJ won every Finals with 10-20 more ppg and usage than his sidekick (carry job)

no comparison

Ultimately, nobody won 3 rings without their sidekick getting a FMVP or 25-30 ppg, so how could they win 3 with Pippen?.. let alone 6?

[red1]

Lebron won every Finals with 2-5 more ppg and usage than his sidekick (shared load)

MJ won every Finals with 10-20 more ppg and usage than his sidekick (carry job)

no comparison

Ultimately, nobody won 3 rings without their sidekick getting a FMVP or 25-30 ppg, so how could they win 3 with Pippen?.. let alone 6?

cool bro.



lebron won a ring leading both teams in every single major stat. thats the definition of carrying a team.



he also won with two different casts. can potentially win with a third different cast.



man that fourth potential ring, hopefully this year or next - that fourth one is really going to hurt the haters.

[AirBonner]

IT's injury effectively ended his career as a prime player

So we never got to see prime IT with Lebron

And I don't know what IT's playoff stats look like, but I doubt they match Kyrie's from 16 and 17' (26 on 47%... nearly equal scoring with Lebron)
IT averaged 25ppg/7ast/4reb on similar percentages as Kyrie in the 16’ playoffs. So IT matched Kyrie on offense while being a better all around player. That same playoffs Isaiah dropped 53pts in a game (more than Kyrie) so IT was also more explosive on offense as well

[3ball]

lebron won a ring leading both teams in every single major stat. thats the definition of carrying a team.



If Rik Smits had outplayed Shaq in the 00' Finals, would anyone say that Miller had the goat accomplishment or "carried" his team?

If Kenyon had outplayed Duncan in the 03' Finals, would anyone say that Kidd had the goat accomplishment or "carried" his team?

So why would we say Lebron carried anything when Kyrie demolished Curry.??..

given Kyrie's destruction of Curry,, Lebron should've won much easier than 7 games - but it went 7 because lebron wet the bed for the first 4 (24 and 6 TO's)






he also won with two different casts. can potentially win with a third different cast.



he landed on teams favored to win the title in Year 1 (easiest path).. he didn't build those teams from rookies (toughest path)

The 11' Heat, 15' Cavs, and 20' Lakers were all the Vegas favorites to win in preseason

[AirBonner]

Interestingly Kyrie and MJ have similar success without LeBron and Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

And idc about lebron, his 2nd options have given more offensive help and people arent usually arguing otherwise.

It is a myth because of what 2ball and co. push all the time. Look at finals as a comparison and let's use scoring since that's all we hear about, how poor MJ had no scoring help.

2007: Parker 25, Gooden 13
2011: Wade 27, Terry 18
2012: Westbrook 27, Wade 23
2013: Wade 20, Parker 16
2014: Kawhi 18, Wade 15
2015: Klay 16, Smith 12
2016: Irving 27, Curry 20
2017: Irving 29, Curry 27
2018: Curry 28, Love 19
Averages: 22 for opposing sidekick, 21 for LeBron sidekick

LeBron's sidekick was outscored 5x out of 9 times. How about Jordan's?

1991: Pippen 21, Worthy 19
1992: Pippen 21, Porter 16
1993: Pippen 21, Johnson 17
1996: Kemp 23, Pippen 16
1997: Pippen 20, Stockton 15
1998: Pippen 16 (20 healthy), Stockton 10

That's 5-1 and it wasn't even close most of the time. The other guy couldn't get to 20, other than one time.

How about the conference finals?

2007: Hamilton 20, Z 13
2011: Wade 19, Deng 17
2012: 21 for both Wade & Rondo
2013: Hibbert 22, Wade 15
2014: Wade 20, West 16
2015: Teague 22, Smith 18
2016: Irving 24, Lowry 20
2017: Irving 26, Bradley 19
2018: Brown 20, Love 13

It is an even split here. LeBron's sidekicks were outscored 4x, outscored the other guy 4x, and they tied once. How about Chicago?

1991: Pippen 22, Dumars 13
1992: Pippen 20, Daughtery 18
1993: Pippen 23, Starks 15
1996: Penny 26, Pippen 19
1997: Pippen 21, Mourning 16 (full Pippen games--7 MPG in the final game)
1998: Pippen 17, Smits 16

Pippen wins 5-1 again and yes, even if you count the 7 MPG game for 20% of the 97' ECF, Pippen still outscores Mourning. :oldlol: Not one of the other sidekicks could crack 50.

Jordan's sidekick outscores the other guy 10-2 (since only one of those cracked 20+ in 12 series--yet we hear daily complaints about Pippen's 20); LeBron's were usually outscored, it is 8-9-1 being the tally. Yet the narrative is MJ had less sidekick scoring help?

The numbers are pretty clear: the people who didn't have sidekick scoring help were Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Miller, Price, etc. (of course Pippen outscored Price three years in a row and matched Miller so they can't really blame the "sidekick" :lol ).

[3ball]

It is a myth

because of what 2ball and co. push all the time. Look at finals as a comparison and let's use scoring since that's all we hear about, how poor MJ had no scoring help.

2007: Parker 25, Gooden 13
2011: Wade 27, Terry 18
2012: Westbrook 27, Wade 23
2013: Wade 20, Parker 16
2014: Kawhi 18, Wade 15
2015: Klay 16, Smith 12
2016: Irving 27, Curry 20
2017: Irving 29, Curry 27
2018: Curry 28, Love 19
Averages: 22 for opposing sidekick, 21 for LeBron sidekick

LeBron's sidekick was outscored 5x out of 9 times. How about Jordan's?

1991: Pippen 21, Worthy 19
1992: Pippen 21, Porter 16
1993: Pippen 21, Johnson 17
1996: Kemp 23, Pippen 16
1997: Pippen 20, Stockton 15
1998: Pippen 16 (20 healthy), Stockton 10

That's 5-1 and it wasn't even close most of the time. The other guy couldn't get to 20, other than one time.

How about the conference finals?

2007: Hamilton 20, Z 13
2011: Wade 19, Deng 17
2012: 21 for both Wade & Rondo
2013: Hibbert 22, Wade 15
2014: Wade 20, West 16
2015: Teague 22, Smith 18
2016: Irving 24, Lowry 20
2017: Irving 26, Bradley 19
2018: Brown 20, Love 13

It is an even split here. LeBron's sidekicks were outscored 4x, outscored the other guy 4x, and they tied once. How about Chicago?

1991: Pippen 22, Dumars 13
1992: Pippen 20, Daughtery 18
1993: Pippen 23, Starks 15
1996: Penny 26, Pippen 19
1997: Pippen 21, Mourning 16 (full Pippen games--7 MPG in the final game)
1998: Pippen 17, Smits 16

Pippen wins 5-1 again and yes, even if you count the 7 MPG game for 20% of the 97' ECF, Pippen still outscores Mourning. :oldlol: Not one of the other sidekicks could crack 50.

Jordan's sidekick outscores the other guy 10-2 (since only one of those cracked 20+ in 12 series--yet we hear daily complaints about Pippen's 20); LeBron's were usually outscored, it is 8-9-1 being the tally. Yet the narrative is MJ had less sidekick scoring help?

The numbers are pretty clear: the people who didn't have sidekick scoring help were Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Miller, Price, etc. (of course Pippen outscored Price three years in a row and matched Miller so they can't really blame the "sidekick" :lol ).

1998 ECF

Pippen... 16.6 on 39.2%
Smits..... 16.3 on 55.1%


^^^ Now who actually played better?... :kobe:

Pippen was the "Iverson bricklayer" of small forwards with his abnormally-high shot volume and horrific efficiency.

Pippen had to take more shots than opposing 2nd options because the Bulls had no 3rd option and replaceable junk from the 3 thru 12 spots.. literally replaceable junk (everyone was replaced for the 2nd three-peat)

Accordingly, scoring 1 or 2 more points means nothing if your efficiency is the worst.. see the above example with Smits..

So again, Pippen's horrible efficiency at high volume hurt the Bulls every game and many superior scorers and higher efficiency players would've won easier with MJ, such as Reggie Miller, Ewing, Drexler, Kemp, Payton, Penny, Grant Hill, Derrick Coleman - TONS of guys like this that Pippen shouldn't be ranked ahead of

[FromDowntown]

It is a myth because of what 2ball and co. push all the time. Look at finals as a comparison and let's use scoring since that's all we hear about, how poor MJ had no scoring help.

2007: Parker 25, Gooden 13
2011: Wade 27, Terry 18
2012: Westbrook 27, Wade 23
2013: Wade 20, Parker 16
2014: Kawhi 18, Wade 15
2015: Klay 16, Smith 12
2016: Irving 27, Curry 20
2017: Irving 29, Curry 27
2018: Curry 28, Love 19
Averages: 22 for opposing sidekick, 21 for LeBron sidekick

LeBron's sidekick was outscored 5x out of 9 times. How about Jordan's?

1991: Pippen 21, Worthy 19
1992: Pippen 21, Porter 16
1993: Pippen 21, Johnson 17
1996: Kemp 23, Pippen 16
1997: Pippen 20, Stockton 15
1998: Pippen 16 (20 healthy), Stockton 10

That's 5-1 and it wasn't even close most of the time. The other guy couldn't get to 20, other than one time.

How about the conference finals?

2007: Hamilton 20, Z 13
2011: Wade 19, Deng 17
2012: 21 for both Wade & Rondo
2013: Hibbert 22, Wade 15
2014: Wade 20, West 16
2015: Teague 22, Smith 18
2016: Irving 24, Lowry 20
2017: Irving 26, Bradley 19
2018: Brown 20, Love 13

It is an even split here. LeBron's sidekicks were outscored 4x, outscored the other guy 4x, and they tied once. How about Chicago?

1991: Pippen 22, Dumars 13
1992: Pippen 20, Daughtery 18
1993: Pippen 23, Starks 15
1996: Penny 26, Pippen 19
1997: Pippen 21, Mourning 16 (full Pippen games--7 MPG in the final game)
1998: Pippen 17, Smits 16

Pippen wins 5-1 again and yes, even if you count the 7 MPG game for 20% of the 97' ECF, Pippen still outscores Mourning. :oldlol: Not one of the other sidekicks could crack 50.

Jordan's sidekick outscores the other guy 10-2 (since only one of those cracked 20+ in 12 series--yet we hear daily complaints about Pippen's 20); LeBron's were usually outscored, it is 8-9-1 being the tally. Yet the narrative is MJ had less sidekick scoring help?

The numbers are pretty clear: the people who didn't have sidekick scoring help were Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Miller, Price, etc. (of course Pippen outscored Price three years in a row and matched Miller so they can't really blame the "sidekick" :lol ).

Wow

I've seen enough

[3ball]

Wow

I've seen enough

Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


^^^ it certainly wasn't MJ's fault!!!!

this shows how garbage the bulls were at the 3 thru 12 spots, and how much Pippen under-scored given his volume (due to poor efficiency)

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow

I've seen enough

Data after data blows 2ball's mythology away. :lol

[Shooter]

Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


^^^ it certainly wasn't MJ's fault!!!!

this shows how garbage the bulls were at the 3 thru 12 spots, and how much Pippen under-scored given his volume (due to poor efficiency)

Okay but now do the opponents scoring I bet its low...

You only nee to score 60 as a team if your weak opponent can only score 50

[Shooter]

Data after data blows 2ball's mythology away. :lol

I've noticed he makes a lot of stuff up and then gets blown away by you, TheCorp, and Red1

Funny stuff to watch these days :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Okay but now do the opponents scoring I bet its low...

You only nee to score 60 as a team if your weak opponent can only score 50

Utah's 2nd/3rd options combined for 20.4 PPG in the 98' finals (yet 2ball and the mini-2balls bitch every day about Pippen scoring 19-21 consistently as a 2nd option). They had a game where the entire team scored 54. Malone scored 22, the rest of the team 32 (Stockton racked up 2 points--imagine if Pippen ever did that in a finals game :oldlol: ). https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199806070CHI.html


Funny stuff to watch these days

:lol

[Shooter]

Utah's 2nd/3rd options combined for 20.4 PPG in the 98' finals (yet 2ball and the mini-2balls bitch every day about Pippen scoring 19-21 consistently as a 2nd option). They had a game where the entire team scored 54. Malone scored 22, the rest of the team 32 (Stockton racked up 2 points--imagine if Pippen ever did that in a finals game :oldlol: ). https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199806070CHI.html



:lol


Geeeeeeeeeze 90s ball was by far the weakest era ever, I don't ever want to hear about people dissing the 70s or 80s again

[GimmeThat]

yes, you don't win championships without having low turnovers