If PG stays at this MVP level in the bubble, who would beat the Clippers in a series?

[Clippersfan86]

Part of the Clippers limitation this year besides guys being out a lot, was PG just wasn't his MVP level of the previous year. He was still similar efficiency wise, but he was way more inconsistent and passive. He basically said it was due to the shoulders not actually being fully ready. So far in two official games in the bubble he's averaging 29/4/2/3 steals (just 30 minutes per game) on 55% from field/60% from 3 on 11 attempts per game. In the 3 scrimmage games he was putting up an ultra efficient 20 ish PPG in 15 minutes per game. I have never seen him play so well on both ends in a Clippers uniform. I imagine with more time with Kawhi and the guys, it will only get better. His defense is finally looking really good too.

This is everything I envisioned when we got him. Better than Kawhi in the regular season, with Kawhi taking over in the playoffs. Unfortunately until now he hadn't shown flashes of it because Kawhi was so damn dominant, and he was so meh this season. IF he maintains this legit superstar, two way play and plays at a level at least close to Kawhi, which team do you see legitimately beating them in 7 games? Multiple teams? One specific team? None?

If he keeps this up, I can stop missing SGA so much or regretting a trade at all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUtk9yBg-U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkmv17PKL2I

[NBAGOAT]

bucks have a chance. Their defense is still a threat. the clips have kawhi but not the interior defense to deal with giannis

[FireDavidKahn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rULYVUe5q68

[LAmbruh]

Playoff....... P??




























:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

No one in theory but you can say the same about LeBron/AD, Harden/Westbrook. If both superstars are playing at a MVP level their teams will be unbeatable in theory (they could lose if they face another team with two players playing at that level in a series of course but that is unlikely).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Bucks are the only team with a chance. But if Doc puts Kawhi on Giannis and have Zubac help in the paint, they should be able to win. Bucks are just a really well coached team with an MVP, they aren't really a great team in the playoffs. Coach bud turned the Al Horford Hawks into a 60 win team. So of course he's going to make Giannis and this bucks team look godly during regular season. Playoffs they will get exposed by Clippers.

[tpols]

I'm a huge fan of siakam but PG13 is better. If kawhi gets the bucks again it will be even shorter work.

[StrongLurk]

Clips are without a doubt the most talented team in the league.

[PeroAntic]

Its just been two games.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No one in theory but you can say the same about LeBron/AD, Harden/Westbrook. If both superstars are playing at a MVP level their teams will be unbeatable in theory (they could lose if they face another team with two players playing at that level in a series of course but that is unlikely).

Good point, and so true.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good point, and so true.

That's why I think people are sleeping on Houston. If their superstars get hot, they can beat anyone. Anything can happen in a 5-7 game sample or even 20 games.

[Marchesk]

That's why I think people are sleeping on Houston. If their superstars get hot, they can beat anyone. Anything can happen in a 5-7 game sample or even 20 games.

You're really going to bet on Harden and Westbrook to take down a Lebron or Kawhi team?

[Clippersfan86]

That's why I think people are sleeping on Houston. If their superstars get hot, they can beat anyone. Anything can happen in a 5-7 game sample or even 20 games.

Not exactly equal here. Not all of these duos at their absolute peak are equal. I think there is a clear step down from the Lakers+Clippers duos. Also as said by Marchek you really trust other stars like someone such as Kawhi??

[Roundball_Rock]

You're really going to bet on Harden and Westbrook to take down a Lebron or Kawhi team?

Only if I get good odds on the upset. :lol

The LA teams likely beat either--if the Rockets even get that far. What I am saying is it wouldn't be shocking to me if their MVP's get hot and they pull the upset. Even if the odds are 25-30% that is a better shot than the Nuggets, Jazz, OKC, Mavs have against LA.


Not exactly equal here. Not all of these duos at their absolute peak are equal. I think there is a clear step down from the Lakers+Clippers duos

Agree but small sample sizes can be freaky. In a series all you need is 4-5 hot games and you have a better shot with that with Harden/Westbrook than Jokic/Murray, Mitchell/Gobert, Luka/unicorn, etc.


Also as said by Marchek you really truth other stars like someone such as Kawhi??

Giannis and Kawhi are 1a/1b for me as the best players--then steps down to the rest.

[Clippersfan86]

Only if I get good odds on the upset. :lol

The LA teams likely beat either--if the Rockets even get that far. What I am saying is it wouldn't be shocking to me if their MVP's get hot and they pull the upset. Even if the odds are 25-30% that is a better shot than the Nuggets, Jazz, OKC, Mavs have against LA.



Agree but small sample sizes can be freaky. In a series all you need is 4-5 hot games and you have a better shot with that with Harden/Westbrook than Jokic/Murray, Mitchell/Gobert, Luka/unicorn, etc.



Giannis and Kawhi are 1a/1b for me as the best players--then steps down to the rest.

I do know what you're saying that you can't write off any superstars to get hot in a series. Some are definitely more proven in the playoffs though. Harden+Westbrook for example have pretty shaky, mixed playoff history. PG gets crapped on but the last 5-6 years in the playoffs he's basically still 25/5/5+ on solid efficiency and plays WAY better defense than either of those two.

[Roundball_Rock]

I do know what you're saying that you can't write off any superstars to get hot in a series. Some are definitely more proven in the playoffs though. Harden+Westbrook for example have pretty shaky, mixed playoff history. PG gets crapped on but the last 5-6 years in the playoffs he's basically still 25/5/5+ on solid efficiency and plays WAY better defense than either of those two.

Yeah agreed. If you give equal odds, I am picking 1) LAC 2) LAL 3) MIL 4) HOU 5) TOR to win in that order. Houston's record doesn't warrant them being that high but playoffs are small sample sizes and they have the superstar power to make a run. We have seen crazy stuff like the 8 seed Knicks or a 40 win team make the finals before (beating Kareem/Magic en route). No one thought Dallas was going to beat the Lakers or Heat going into the 11' playoffs. Etc.

I think the difference between the Clippers and those other teams is they get 19 PPG from their 3rd and 4th options and then they have Morris who was 20 PPG on the Knicks. Beverely is a good defender. They have more from 3-12 than anyone else and their duo arguably is the best anyway. Then Kawhi is super clutch.

The Clippers are the team to beat for sure IMO.

[Doranku]

You can literally pencil in PG for at least one 2-15 shooting night in a playoff series. NOBODY is scared of Playoff P.

[tpols]

You can literally pencil in PG for at least one 2-15 shooting night in a playoff series. NOBODY is scared of Playoff P.

you may be in for a rude awakening on that. Hibbert and westbrook are a far cry from kawhi and what he alleviates.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No one in theory but you can say the same about LeBron/AD, Harden/Westbrook. If both superstars are playing at a MVP level their teams will be unbeatable in theory (they could lose if they face another team with two players playing at that level in a series of course but that is unlikely).

Rockets don't play any defense. That's the main difference between Kawhi/George and Harden/Westbrook. Also D'antoni refuses to play anybody over 6"7? That's going to be a tough way to win it.

[Roundball_Rock]

you may be in for a rude awakening on that. Hibbert and westbrook are a far cry from kawhi and what he alleviates.

The 17' MVP--what a bum, right? 29/12/8 alongside PG in 18' in the PO. Your excuse will be "efficiency" but he was on 39% usage--his "efficiency" would be boosted if he operated on half that volume like some of your heroes. Westbrook is doing fine without PG while PG's numbers have fallen off a cliff in LA.

PG's track record is what it is--until he changes the narrative on the court. He is 29 so he still has time to do that.


Rockets don't play any defense. That's the main difference between Kawhi/George and Harden/Westbrook. Also D'antoni refuses to play anybody over 6"7? That's going to be a tough way to win it.

For sure--but you just need 4 games to win and crazier things have happened. They have a puncher's chance. I'm betting on LAC but the Rockets are my favorite outside of the LA teams/MIL.

[Clippersfan86]

The 17' MVP--what a bum, right? 29/12/8 alongside PG in 18' in the PO. Your excuse will be "efficiency" but he was on 39% usage--his "efficiency" would be boosted if he operated on half that volume like some of your heroes. Westbrook is doing fine without PG while PG's numbers have fallen off a cliff in LA.

PG's track record is what it is--until he changes the narrative on the court. He is 29 so he still has time to do that.



For sure--but you just need 4 games to win and crazier things have happened. They have a puncher's chance. I'm betting on LAC but the Rockets are my favorite outside of the LA teams/MIL.

Actually PG's can simply be explained as minutes. He's been in and out all season, his PER 36 and efficiency remains similar. He's playing 6 less minutes per game. He HAS dropped off defensively and overall consistency, which is why I made the thread. He's looking way more spry than I've seen all year. The 4 months off seem to have helped him heal.

[Roundball_Rock]

Actually PG's can simply be explained as minutes. He's been in and out all season, his PER 36 and efficiency remains similar. He's playing 6 less minutes per game

True--but keep in mind if he is playing 29 MPG instead of 37 MPG his per minute production should increase.

2019 was an outlier. He was 28/8/4. His next best seasons were 23/7/4 and 24/7/3. If he was the player he was in 2019 consistently throughout his prime he would be discussed alongside Kawhi and Carmelo in the 2010's but he wasn't.


He's looking way more spry than I've seen all year. The 4 months off seem to have helped him heal.

True. Health will be fine for him. The question is whatever mental block he has that causes him PO problems--but 1) maybe he has overcome that 2) maybe it doesn't apply with no fans.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

True--but keep in mind if he is playing 29 MPG instead of 37 MPG his per minute production should increase.

2019 was an outlier. He was 28/8/4. His next best seasons were 23/7/4 and 24/7/3. If he was the player he was in 2019 consistently throughout his prime he would be discussed alongside Kawhi and Carmelo in the 2010's but he wasn't.



True. Health will be fine for him. The question is whatever mental block he has that causes him PO problems--but 1) maybe he has overcome that 2) maybe it doesn't apply with no fans.

I would say Paul George in 2019 peaked higher then Carmello ever has? But Carmello had the longer prime. George is a much better defender, so I give him the edge over carmello as overall players. Peak George and peak Kawhi on the same team are like if 2003 Kobe and Mcgrady teamed up but the better version! Very scary duo

[ArbitraryWater]

PG is T-Mac 2.0

[Roundball_Rock]

I would say Paul George in 2019 peaked higher then Carmello ever has? But Carmello had the longer prime. George is a much better defender, so I give him the edge over carmello as overall players. Peak George and peak Kawhi on the same team are like if 2003 Kobe and Mcgrady teamed up but the better version! Very scary duo

Agreed. I am just saying 2019 PG to date is an outlier. If he was consistent at that level he would have been viewed as a first tier SF throughout his career (not an all-NBA third team type)--but no one thought of him that way until a year ago (his 9th season).

[KD7]

Playoff....... P??




























:roll:

This we all know PG ain't doing shit come the playoffs :roll:

[Tobio-Star]

Part of the Clippers limitation this year besides guys being out a lot, was PG just wasn't his MVP level of the previous year. He was still similar efficiency wise, but he was way more inconsistent and passive. He basically said it was due to the shoulders not actually being fully ready. So far in two official games in the bubble he's averaging 29/4/2/3 steals (just 30 minutes per game) on 55% from field/60% from 3 on 11 attempts per game. In the 3 scrimmage games he was putting up an ultra efficient 20 ish PPG in 15 minutes per game. I have never seen him play so well on both ends in a Clippers uniform. I imagine with more time with Kawhi and the guys, it will only get better. His defense is finally looking really good too.

This is everything I envisioned when we got him. Better than Kawhi in the regular season, with Kawhi taking over in the playoffs. Unfortunately until now he hadn't shown flashes of it because Kawhi was so damn dominant, and he was so meh this season. IF he maintains this legit superstar, two way play and plays at a level at least close to Kawhi, which team do you see legitimately beating them in 7 games? Multiple teams? One specific team? None?

If he keeps this up, I can stop missing SGA so much or regretting a trade at all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUtk9yBg-U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkmv17PKL2I

Even at this level they are far from being unbeatable. PG at his best + Kawhi and the rest of the Clippers team are not even close of the 2017 and 18 Warriors. Yet Houston gave that team a run for their money

I could argue they arent even as good as the 2016 Warriors and we all know what LeBron did to them

Also that's a big IF, we still have to see if he can keep this up heading on to the playoffs

[imdaman99]

Lebron's defense literally locked him up the other night.

[Clippersfan86]

Lebron's defense literally locked him up the other night.

Yet LeBron in 4 games vs the Clippers is shooting 37% on 21 ppg and that's irrelevant? Kawhi is hanging an ultra efficient 30 ppg on the Lakers this year.

[Tobio-Star]

Lebron's defense literally locked him up the other night.

Yup and Kuz did too

[Tobio-Star]

Yet LeBron in 4 games vs the Clippers is shooting 37% on 21 ppg and that's irrelevant? Kawhi is hanging an ultra efficient 30 ppg on the Lakers this year.

Yes but LeBron is known for elevating his level comes playoffs time so that's not really worrying. But shutting Kawhi and PG is huge for the Clippers

[Clippersfan86]

Yes but LeBron is known for elevating his level comes playoffs time so that's not really worrying. But shutting Kawhi and PG is huge for the Clippers

Playing good defense a few possessions is a lot different than sustaining it in a series. Especially at his age, with his load.

[Tobio-Star]

Playing good defense a few possessions is a lot different than sustaining it in a series. Especially at his age, with his load.

I don't know about that. Almost everytime I seen him on Kawhi he played near elite defense on him. Kawhi seemed like he was scared tbh

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I don't know about that. Almost everytime I seen him on Kawhi he played near elite defense on him. Kawhi seemed like he was scared tbh

21PPG on 37% FG vs clippers

Now that's scared. LeBron always refuses to attempt scoring when he has Kawhi on him. Kawhi actually goes at Lebron's defense (besides when LeBron is pulling his wrist). Clippers will sweep Lakers in the playoffs if LeBron keeps playing like this. You better hope Anthony Davis keeps playing like he's prime Shaq or Lakers are done for.

[Tobio-Star]

Also even though we lost yesterday, I was pretty happy with what I saw in general. EVERYONE on the Lakers play good D. Our worst defenser is like KCP and even he is far from a liability.

The only thing left we have to improve is the offense but that will come once Vogel knows his rotations and LeBron take it to the next level

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Even at this level they are far from being unbeatable. PG at his best + Kawhi and the rest of the Clippers team are not even close of the 2017 and 18 Warriors. Yet Houston gave that team a run for their money

I could argue they arent even as good as the 2016 Warriors and we all know what LeBron did to them

Also that's a big IF, we still have to see if he can keep this up heading on to the playoffs

Even if Paul George is cold for a series, Kawhi can carry a team for a series. That was proven in 2019 2nd round vs the super team of Embiid/Butler/Simmons/Harris/Reddick

clippers also have other scorers like Lou or Harrell to make up for cold shooting George. When George actually has his shot going though? Nobody is beating clippers

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Also even though we lost yesterday, I was pretty happy with what I saw in general. EVERYONE on the Lakers play good D. Our worst defenser is like KCP and even he is far from a liability.

The only thing left we have to improve is the offense but that will come once Vogel knows his rotations and LeBron take it to the next level

Anthony Davis last night: 5 points 28% FG if you take away his freethrows

[Tobio-Star]

21PPG on 37% FG vs clippers

Now that's scared. LeBron always refuses to attempt scoring when he has Kawhi on him. Kawhi actually goes at Lebron's defense (besides when LeBron is pulling his wrist). Clippers will sweep Lakers in the playoffs if LeBron keeps playing like this. You better hope Anthony Davis keeps playing like he's prime Shaq or Lakers are done for.

Those numbers are irrelevant. Playoffs LeBron is a whole different animal

[Tobio-Star]

Even if Paul George is cold for a series, Kawhi can carry a team for a series. That was proven in 2019 2nd round vs the super team of Embiid/Butler/Simmons/Harris/Reddick
clippers also have other scorers like Lou or Harrell to make up for cold shooting George. When George actually has his shot going though? Nobody is beating clippers

Kawhi didnt prove shit in 2019. He got carried by Lowry and VanVleet. Lou is a complete defensive liability (as shown by the previous matchup with the Lakers) and Harrell is a role player

[Tobio-Star]

Just imagine what will happen when Jr and KCPs shots are falling, Green stops choking and the offense starts to mesh? Best case scenario Clippers take 2 games but that's it

[Tobio-Star]

Also 2019 Sixers were no superteam tf. They couldnt make a 3 to save their life :oldlol:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Just imagine what will happen when Jr and KCPs shots are falling, Green stops choking and the offense starts to mesh? Best case scenario Clippers take 2 games but that's it

Relying on role players now? Wow you have lost all hope in LeBron when facing Kawhi

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Also 2019 Sixers were no superteam tf. They couldnt make a 3 to save their life :oldlol:

They had 3 allstars, a 22PPG scorer, a 18PPG scorer. That's a damn superteam. Embiid also playing defense like he's Bill Russell. If Kawhi could get through all that with nothing, he should be fine with George/Harrell/Lou scoring.

[Tobio-Star]

Relying on role players now? Wow you have lost all hope in LeBron when facing Kawhi

As far as I know you need a team to win a chip

[Tobio-Star]

They had 3 allstars, a 22PPG scorer, a 18PPG scorer. That's a damn superteam. Embiid also playing defense like he's Bill Russell. If Kawhi could get through all that with nothing, he should be fine with George/Harrell/Lou scoring.

It doesnt matter when you cant shoot 3s. Those are vital to win nowadays. Once JJ was out they were straight tr@sh. It says a lot that Kawhi had to go to game 7 to win with his stacked team (with a lucky bounce furthermore)

[imdaman99]

Also 2019 Sixers were no superteam tf. They couldnt make a 3 to save their life :oldlol:

3 of the top 15-20 players in the league and not a superteam? :kobe:

[Tobio-Star]

3 of the top 15-20 players in the league and not a superteam? :kobe:

Even if they were one it still wasnt a feat to beat them since they were ass at shooting 3s

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Even if they were one it still wasnt a feat to beat them since they were ass at shooting 3s

Hawks were top 4 in made 3 pointers during the 2019 season. Would it be a feat to beat them?

[3ball]

What's making him mvp-level

[Smoke117]

lol Two great games does not constitute an MVP level. He's due for a stinker.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What's making him mvp-level

The presence of Kawhi is.

Superstars can look great next to Kawhi (George)
3rd wheels can look great next to Kawhi (Harrell)

While LeBron would make George worse or he would just choke like 2011. LeBron would turn Harrell into a 9PPG guy as well.

[3ball]

The presence of Kawhi is.

Superstars can look great next to Kawhi (George)
3rd wheels can look great next to Kawhi (Harrell)

While LeBron would make George worse or he would just choke like 2011. LeBron would turn Harrell into a 9PPG guy as well.

what aspect of his stats see improvement so far in the bubble?

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Can't wait for Lou and Montrezl to come back

[HBK_Kliq_2]

what aspect of his stats see improvement so far in the bubble?

He makes 7 three pointers a game in the bubble, only made 3 in the season. Every other shot he sucks at though for some reason.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Kawhi didnt prove shit in 2019. He got carried by Lowry and VanVleet. Lou is a complete defensive liability (as shown by the previous matchup with the Lakers) and Harrell is a role player
Kawhi won without a superteam,something you can't say about L36ron.Lowry,Ibaka,Gasol,Green and Vanvleet were getting carried throughout the playoffs by Kawhi,especially in that Magic series in the first round.I'd like to see them get to the finals since you think they carried Kawhi.

Lou is a complete defensive liability (as shown by the previous matchup with the Lakers) and Harrell is a role player
I'll give you that he's a liability on defense but Lou can still give you 20 consistently off the bench and has a jumpshot.Montrezl also can give you 20 off the bench plus defensive effort.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lmao they got carried in a backdoor sweep 1st round? Who tf cares

Kawhi wasnt even unanimous FMVP

Nor the MVP of the closeout game.

He got carried in the finals. Something you cant say for Le3/9

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Lmao they got carried in a backdoor sweep 1st round? Who tf cares
Magic got 1 game over them thanks to DJ Augustin's game winner.If it was so easy in that series then Lowry and Vanvleet should have been shitting all over the Magic.


Kawhi wasnt even unanimous FMVP

Nor the MVP of the closeout game.

At the end of the day that was Kawhi's team,not Lowry's,not Siakam's,not Gasol's and not Vanvleet's.I honestly think the Raptors would have lost if Durant was 100% healthy because when he came back in one of those games in the finals he was cooking their ass.But since you say he got carried by the Toronto Raptors they should be able to get to the finals without Kawhi.


He got carried in the finals.Something you cant say for Le3/9
2011 Finals

[Axe]

Can't wait for Lou and Montrezl to come back
The clips can't be at their full power without those guys

[Roundball_Rock]

The presence of Kawhi is.

Superstars can look great next to Kawhi (George)
3rd wheels can look great next to Kawhi (Harrell)


HBK, what is your take on why the Clippers' offense falls off a cliff with Kawhi off the court? They still have PG, Williams, Harrell and now Morris. Why the massive falloff? This came up in passing in the other thread but due to the flood of trolling the discussion never fully developed.

With Kawhi on the court they have a 117.5 oRTG, #1 in the NBA. With him off they are 110.1, #19. That is +7.4.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

The clips can't be at their full power without those guys

You're right but when the Clippers faced Lakers the first time it was without PG the second was with PG.Clippers won both of those games,the third time it took Avery Bradley having a rare game hitting all of those 3 point shots for them to get the win.

The fourth was without their 2 best players off the bench.Imagine if this team was 100% healthy and played all their games together before the shutdown.They'd more than likely be the #1 seed.They blew out the Rockets ffs.

[ImKobe]

HBK, what is your take on why the Clippers' offense falls off a cliff with Kawhi off the court? They still have PG, Williams, Harrell and now Morris. Why the massive falloff? This came up in passing in the other thread but due to the flood of trolling the discussion never fully developed.

With Kawhi on the court they have a 117.5 oRTG, #1 in the NBA. With him off they are 110.1, #19. That is +7.4.

With PG on the court they have a 116.33 ORTG, with PG off the court they have a 112.7 ORTG.

They have a 117.51 ORTG when Kawhi & George are both on the court & 108.06 ORTG with both off.

[ImKobe]

Kawhi's obviously the best offensive player, thus they're at their best with him on the court, but they've had to play full games without either due to Kawhi's load managing early in the season with George being out due to injury as well. I believe they've played 3 games with PG & Kawhi both sitting out, all losses.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

With PG on the court they have a 116.33 ORTG, with PG off the court they have a 112.7 ORTG.

They have a 117.51 ORTG when Kawhi & George are both on the court & 108.06 ORTG with both off.

1st ranked offense with Kawhi on the court, 20th ranked offense with Kawhi off the court. The defense also declines when Kawhi is off the court. I think its because Kawhi is clippers main playmaker, so they rely on him. A team like Raptors have a good playmaker in Lowry to still carry things at least in the reg season anyway.

Kawhi has carried Paul George this year. George missed training camp and never fully recovered from his shoulder injury. On top of that George also pulled his hamstring multiple times. You can even make an argument that Harrell has been better then George this year. George is finally starting to play like an MVP in the bubble only.

Kawhi is the best scorer, best rebounder, best defender, best playmaker on the clippers. Its his team, he's basically their LeBron. Once Kawhi leaves the court, they suck. This is not a raptors type situation at all. I think clippers 2020 is better then 2019 raptors but I think clippers were more dependent on Kawhi in reg season.

[Roundball_Rock]

1st ranked offense with Kawhi on the court, 20th ranked offense with Kawhi off the court.

That speaks for itself.


I think its because Kawhi is clippers main playmaker, so they rely on him. A team like Raptors have a good playmaker in Lowry to still carry things at least in the reg season anyway.

Good points. They have Williams but he isn't close to Lowry as a playmaker and PG isn't a relevant factor as a playmaker.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

1st ranked offense with Kawhi on the court, 20th ranked offense with Kawhi off the court. The defense also declines when Kawhi is off the court. I think its because Kawhi is clippers main playmaker, so they rely on him. A team like Raptors have a good playmaker in Lowry to still carry things at least in the reg season anyway.

Kawhi has carried Paul George this year. George missed training camp and never fully recovered from his shoulder injury. On top of that George also pulled his hamstring multiple times. You can even make an argument that Harrell has been better then George this year. George is finally starting to play like an MVP in the bubble only.

Kawhi is the best scorer, best rebounder, best defender, best playmaker on the clippers. Its his team, he's basically their LeBron. Once Kawhi leaves the court, they suck. This is not a raptors type situation at all. I think clippers 2020 is better then 2019 raptors but I think clippers were more dependent on Kawhi in reg season.

So you're pretty much saying he's both their floor general and defensive anchor

[ImKobe]

1st ranked offense with Kawhi on the court, 20th ranked offense with Kawhi off the court. The defense also declines when Kawhi is off the court. I think its because Kawhi is clippers main playmaker, so they rely on him. A team like Raptors have a good playmaker in Lowry to still carry things at least in the reg season anyway.

Kawhi has carried Paul George this year. George missed training camp and never fully recovered from his shoulder injury. On top of that George also pulled his hamstring multiple times. You can even make an argument that Harrell has been better then George this year. George is finally starting to play like an MVP in the bubble only.

Kawhi is the best scorer, best rebounder, best defender, best playmaker on the clippers. Its his team, he's basically their LeBron. Once Kawhi leaves the court, they suck. This is not a raptors type situation at all. I think clippers 2020 is better then 2019 raptors but I think clippers were more dependent on Kawhi in reg season.

Clippers haven't been healthy all season, aren't they like 10 - 1 when all their core guys play? So 11 games of a healthy roster? No wonder you get these On/off numbers.

[3ball]

He makes 7 three pointers a game in the bubble, only made 3 in the season. Every other shot he sucks at though for some reason.

So his increased scoring is what makes him MVP-caliber now

Hmmm.. scoring

Got it

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

At some point in the season they turned PG into mainly a spot-up shooter which I didn't like too much.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So you're pretty much saying he's both their floor general and defensive anchor

Yeah and a 33% usage

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That speaks for itself.



Good points. They have Williams but he isn't close to Lowry as a playmaker and PG isn't a relevant factor as a playmaker.

Yeah with kawhi they have the 1st ranked offense and hold teams to 30th ranked offense. Can't ask for much more then that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah with kawhi they have the 1st ranked offense and hold teams to 30th ranked offense. Can't ask for much more then that.

Wow. I knew about the offensive numbers but not that the D is that good. #1 on O, #1 on D. :oldlol: :bowdown:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wow. I knew about the offensive numbers but not that the D is that good. #1 on O, #1 on D. :oldlol: :bowdown:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01/on-off/2020

Holding teams to 105.3 offense which ranks last. Without him they are still pretty good on d holding teams to 22nd ranked offense. A lot of the time with Kawhi off though is garbage time and their defending scrubs. So that works both ways I guess, that's why on/off can be tricky. What we do know is Kawhi anchors the #1 d and #1 o when he's playing.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So his increased scoring is what makes him MVP-caliber now

Hmmm.. scoring

Got it

Generally speaking, yes. But Pippen is the ultimate intangibles guy. That's why Jordan said without Pippen there would be no dynasty.

[Roundball_Rock]

One thing that is interesting about Kawhi is because of load management we get a lot of full games with him out, plus whatever games he winds up missing due to injuries. He tends to pick games against scrub teams to rest so you would think they would at least maintain their performance without him but they don't. They are 6-7.

The games he has missed are against: Jazz, Bucks, Pelicans, OKC, Grizz, Pacers, Bulls, Knicks, Hawks, Kings, Cavs.

They have given up the following in those games: 110, 129, 132, 101, 88, 119, 99, 109, 118, 132, 102, 124, 92. That is an average of 111.9. For the season as a whole they give up 109.5, so a 2.4 negative shift against the average (and obviously more compared to the Kawhi games), despite playing weaker than average comp in those games.


Generally speaking, yes.

Isn't that the category his "advocates" kept invoking in that other thread? He can't have MVP impact via playmaking, rebounding. He is an elite defender but not at the Kawhi level. If he can score 28 PPG like he did last year, that is what makes him a MVP level impact guy instead of an all-NBA third team type that he was for the rest of his prime.

The problem is he has done it exactly once in his career. The first question is: is 19' an outlier or is that the "new normal" for PG for the next few years? The second is can he maintain it in the PO. If he does both, the Clippers will be unbeatable if healthy since we know Kawhi is guaranteed dominance in the PO. Even if he falters they are equipped to overcome it with Kawhi, Williams, Harrell, Morris all there to pick up the slack.

[Clippersfan86]

1st ranked offense with Kawhi on the court, 20th ranked offense with Kawhi off the court. The defense also declines when Kawhi is off the court. I think its because Kawhi is clippers main playmaker, so they rely on him. A team like Raptors have a good playmaker in Lowry to still carry things at least in the reg season anyway.

Kawhi has carried Paul George this year. George missed training camp and never fully recovered from his shoulder injury. On top of that George also pulled his hamstring multiple times. You can even make an argument that Harrell has been better then George this year. George is finally starting to play like an MVP in the bubble only.

Kawhi is the best scorer, best rebounder, best defender, best playmaker on the clippers. Its his team, he's basically their LeBron. Once Kawhi leaves the court, they suck. This is not a raptors type situation at all. I think clippers 2020 is better then 2019 raptors but I think clippers were more dependent on Kawhi in reg season.

I mean... considering key guys like PG+Beverley were out of the lineup all year, I'm not surprised they fared much worse than the Raptors without Kawhi. Kawhi is having to carry more of the playmaking load, but part of that is team construction. Clippers as you implied don't have a playmaker like Lowry in his absence. I wish we got to see a more healthy Clippers team this year. They were basically a 67-68 win team if they had an intact core more of the season.

I'd still take the Clippers best 10 players over the Raptors 10 best players last year (assuming both have Kawhi). I think the Clippers won't be quite as versatile on defense (or good in general maybe), but offensively they are clearly better.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

One thing that is interesting about Kawhi is because of load management we get a lot of full games with him out, plus whatever games he winds up missing due to injuries. He tends to pick games against scrub teams to rest so you would think they would at least maintain their performance without him but they don't. They are 6-7.

The games he has missed are against: Jazz, Bucks, Pelicans, OKC, Grizz, Pacers, Bulls, Knicks, Hawks, Kings, Cavs.

They have given up the following in those games: 110, 129, 132, 101, 88, 119, 99, 109, 118, 132, 102, 124, 92. That is an average of 111.9. For the season as a whole they give up 109.5, so a 2.4 negative shift against the average (and obviously more compared to the Kawhi games), despite playing weaker than average comp in those games.



Isn't that the category his "advocates" kept invoking in that other thread? He can't have MVP impact via playmaking, rebounding. He is an elite defender but not at the Kawhi level. If he can score 28 PPG like he did last year, that is what makes him a MVP level impact guy instead of an all-NBA third team type that he was for the rest of his prime.

The problem is he has done it exactly once in his career. The first question is: is 19' an outlier or is that the "new normal" for PG for the next few years? The second is can he maintain it in the PO. If he does both, the Clippers will be unbeatable if healthy since we know Kawhi is guaranteed dominance in the PO. Even if he falters they are equipped to overcome it with Kawhi, Williams, Harrell, Morris all there to pick up the slack.

Yeah, especially the games with George playing and kawhi sitting. Clippers were still fine with no George and Kawhi playing but their play dropped off with no Kawhi and George playing.

And usually when you are anchoring 1st ranked offenses like that, you're coasting on defense. Like luka, the mavs hold teams to 113 rated offense with him and 110 rated offense without him. So kawhi is actually carrying a heavy load on both ends despite the load management. How many guys in history have anchored the 1st ranked o and d like 2020 Kawhi? That's pretty rare.

[Clippersfan86]

One thing that is interesting about Kawhi is because of load management we get a lot of full games with him out, plus whatever games he winds up missing due to injuries. He tends to pick games against scrub teams to rest so you would think they would at least maintain their performance without him but they don't. They are 6-7.

The games he has missed are against: Jazz, Bucks, Pelicans, OKC, Grizz, Pacers, Bulls, Knicks, Hawks, Kings, Cavs.

They have given up the following in those games: 110, 129, 132, 101, 88, 119, 99, 109, 118, 132, 102, 124, 92. That is an average of 111.9. For the season as a whole they give up 109.5, so a 2.4 negative shift against the average (and obviously more compared to the Kawhi games), despite playing weaker than average comp in those games.



Isn't that the category his "advocates" kept invoking in that other thread? He can't have MVP impact via playmaking, rebounding. He is an elite defender but not at the Kawhi level. If he can score 28 PPG like he did last year, that is what makes him a MVP level impact guy instead of an all-NBA third team type that he was for the rest of his prime.

The problem is he has done it exactly once in his career. The first question is: is 19' an outlier or is that the "new normal" for PG for the next few years? The second is can he maintain it in the PO. If he does both, the Clippers will be unbeatable if healthy since we know Kawhi is guaranteed dominance in the PO. Even if he falters they are equipped to overcome it with Kawhi, Williams, Harrell, Morris all there to pick up the slack.

The Clippers have been this way the entire last decade or so. The CP3/Blake era was EXACTLY the same. They play great in a lot of big games, but will have head scratching losses to teams like the Cavs, Knicks, Kings where they literally don't even try to win. It's a mentality+bad habits thing, nothing to do with talent sans Kawhi. Even if you took Kawhi off this team and they were just more healthy this year, they would likely be a 5 seed out west, probably in a similar situation to OKC right now.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, especially the games with George playing and kawhi sitting. Clippers were still fine with no George and Kawhi playing but their play dropped off with no Kawhi and George playing.

Yup it is pretty stark. Kawhi is the big variable that dictates the Clippers' fortunes to date--no matter what PG, Williams, Harrell are and are not doing. I think to win a chip they probably need PG to come up big at some point, whether the WCF or Finals, but if any team can absorb his inconsistency (especially in closeout and/or elimination games) it is the Clips.


. So kawhi is actually carrying a heavy load on both ends despite the load management. How many guys in history have anchored the 1st ranked o and d like 2020 Kawhi? That's pretty rare.

That's what I consider him MJ-lite in the sense of that two-way level of dominance and the similarities in their games. Maybe another Kobe, except more efficient but probably without the longevity Kobe had?


The CP3/Blake era was EXACTLY the same. They play great in a lot of big games, but will have head scratching losses to teams like the Cavs, Knicks, Kings where they literally don't even try to win.

The Thibs Bulls were like that too. They would win big games on national television and then lose to a scrub team the next game. :oldlol:

[Clippersfan86]

Yup it is pretty stark. Kawhi is the big variable that dictates the Clippers' fortunes to date--no matter what PG, Williams, Harrell are and are not doing. I think to win a chip they probably need PG to come up big at some point, whether the WCF or Finals, but if any team can absorb his inconsistency (especially in closeout and/or elimination games) it is the Clips.



That's what I consider him MJ-lite in the sense of that two-way level of dominance and the similarities in their games. Maybe another Kobe, except more efficient but probably without the longevity Kobe had?



The Thibs Bulls were like that too. They would win big games on national television and then lose to a scrub team the next game. :oldlol:

I mean we got blown out start to finish basically by the KINGS TWICE this year. As you pointed out.. we had like 8 pathetic losses that infuriated me. I'd rather be like the Lakers or Bucks where they just destroy bad teams like Thanos, and mostly only lose to other really good teams. I mean even yesterday vs the Pelicans.. we only won by 23. We were up 42 in the 4th quarter, then just got careless and let them cut the lead a ton. Clippers have some sort of curse where they don't know how to keep an opponent on the ropes. They shoot themselves in the foot over and over again.

[Roundball_Rock]

It seems there is always a team or two like that in every sport. To me that suggests they just don't take games against bad teams seriously but no matter how bad, no matter the sport any team can win over a 2-3 hour time span.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yup it is pretty stark. Kawhi is the big variable that dictates the Clippers' fortunes to date--no matter what PG, Williams, Harrell are and are not doing. I think to win a chip they probably need PG to come up big at some point, whether the WCF or Finals, but if any team can absorb his inconsistency (especially in closeout and/or elimination games) it is the Clips.



That's what I consider him MJ-lite in the sense of that two-way level of dominance and the similarities in their games. Maybe another Kobe, except more efficient but probably without the longevity Kobe had?



The Thibs Bulls were like that too. They would win big games on national television and then lose to a scrub team the next game. :oldlol:

Kobe's best defense came in the early 2000s but 2008-2010 Kobe wasn't elite defensively anymore. Kawhi has a good supporting cast and all but he's not playing with peak Shaq. So to carry the load as clear cut best player and defender? That's very rare and only a thing usually big men like Shaq/Kareem/Duncan do. But we all know offense is more valuable then defense at the end of the day. Wing players naturally impact the offensive game because they can control the offense more frequently then big men can, especially in today's era. Take that with a defense that is holding teams to 30th ranked? That's why wings with elite defense and offense are the best overall value (kawhi, jordan, lebron, Pippen).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The Clippers have been this way the entire last decade or so. The CP3/Blake era was EXACTLY the same. They play great in a lot of big games, but will have head scratching losses to teams like the Cavs, Knicks, Kings where they literally don't even try to win. It's a mentality+bad habits thing, nothing to do with talent sans Kawhi. Even if you took Kawhi off this team and they were just more healthy this year, they would likely be a 5 seed out west, probably in a similar situation to OKC right now.

Sure but they can very well get eliminated in the 1st round like 2019 thunder. Regular season will only tell you so much at the end of the day. Get an elite coach with 1 borderline all-star on the team and you can get 50-60 wins like coach Bud did with Hawks and Al horford. Mavs with Rick Carlisle and Monta Ellis/washed up Dirk in 2015 were a top 5 offense until Rondo came in and shat on it.

Unfortunately, these teams are usually soft/chokers in playoffs without a true mega star leading them.

[Clippersfan86]

Sure but they can very well get eliminated in the 1st round like 2019 thunder. Regular season will only tell you so much at the end of the day. Get an elite coach with 1 borderline all-star on the team and you can get 50-60 wins like coach Bud did with Hawks and Al horford. Mavs with Rick Carlisle and Monta Ellis/washed up Dirk in 2015 were a top 5 offense until Rondo came in and shat on it.

Unfortunately, these teams are usually soft/chokers in playoffs without a true mega star leading them.

Yea, they would be at best a quick 2nd round exit. I'm more just saying the talent outside of Kawhi is still better that sometimes people act like (when comparing to Raptors etc). They are very deep. Problem is they haven't been healthy all year.

[NBAGOAT]

I mean we got blown out start to finish basically by the KINGS TWICE this year. As you pointed out.. we had like 8 pathetic losses that infuriated me. I'd rather be like the Lakers or Bucks where they just destroy bad teams like Thanos, and mostly only lose to other really good teams. I mean even yesterday vs the Pelicans.. we only won by 23. We were up 42 in the 4th quarter, then just got careless and let them cut the lead a ton. Clippers have some sort of curse where they don't know how to keep an opponent on the ropes. They shoot themselves in the foot over and over again.

i watched like you and always been an issue with doc teams. He experiments with rotations that go poorly. I wouldnt worry since the playoffs are a different story and the clippers are just better now than the cp3/blake team. They have tons of competent bench options while those teams were reliant on jamal and austin. Health is a small worry but still less so than cp3/blake. No kd gs to get by either as good as the bucks and lakers are.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

i watched like you and always been an issue with doc teams. He experiments with rotations that go poorly. I wouldnt worry since the playoffs are a different story and the clippers are just better now than the cp3/blake team. They have tons of competent bench options while those teams were reliant on jamal and austin. Health is a small worry but still less so than cp3/blake. No kd gs to get by either as good as the bucks and lakers are.

If clippers have a dominant playoff run and go something like 16-2 or 16-3, its time to start putting them in the sane category as 1996 bulls and 2017 warriors. The Curry/KD warriors were down 2-3 to Rockets in 2018 and pushed to 7. If this clippers team is fully healthy, I think they beat both 2018 rockets and warriors.

Kawhi > Curry
George < Durant since being in bubble though its close

Harrell > Klay
Beverly = Draymond
Lou Williams = Iggy

Slight edge to clippers there

[NBAGOAT]

If clippers have a dominant playoff run and go something like 16-2 or 16-3, its time to start putting them in the sane category as 1996 bulls and 2017 warriors. The Curry/KD warriors were down 2-3 to Rockets in 2018 and pushed to 7. If this clippers team is fully healthy, I think they beat both 2018 rockets and warriors.

Kawhi > Curry
George < Durant since being in bubble though its close

Harrell > Klay
Beverly = Draymond
Lou Williams = Iggy

Slight edge to clippers there

Well my point was those clips teams were never going to beat the warriors this comparison is pretty awful however so I have to respond. Underrating curry and klay. Curry I understandable but yes I think he’s comparable to kawhi.

Klay=Harrell come on now, I’m taking one the best 3pt shooters who adds great perimeter defense vs a big who’s main strength is finishing and plays slightly above average defense for a big.

The worse is draymond=Beverly. No guards defense even comes close to what dray does on defense, not even Marcus smart. I’ll even give you lou this over iggy and Clippers having a lot better depth bit that’s enough.

You should be comparing dray to Harrell, Lou
to klay, and iggy to Bev and I think the warriors have a clear though not big advantage top 5 vs top 5 even if you pick kawhi>curry. The great depth for clips imo isn’t enough vs even the 18 warriors.

Finally the warriors fit better than the clippers with skill sets that covered for each other’s weaknesses and a system that maximized their skills more.

You overlook this with the 2018 rockets too they’re not as good as the clippers talent wise but I give them a decent chance vs the clips because of that..

[GimmeThat]

they are 14th in OPP PTS OFF TO, 8th in OPP 2nd PTS, and 20th in OPP FBPS

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Well my point was those clips teams were never going to beat the warriors this comparison is pretty awful however so I have to respond. Underrating curry and klay. Curry I understandable but yes I think he’s comparable to kawhi.

Klay=Harrell come on now, I’m taking one the best 3pt shooters who adds great perimeter defense vs a big who’s main strength is finishing and plays slightly above average defense for a big.

The worse is draymond=Beverly. No guards defense even comes close to what dray does on defense, not even Marcus smart. I’ll even give you lou this over iggy and Clippers having a lot better depth bit that’s enough.

You should be comparing dray to Harrell, Lou
to klay, and iggy to Bev and I think the warriors have a clear though not big advantage top 5 vs top 5 even if you pick kawhi>curry. The great depth for clips imo isn’t enough vs even the 18 warriors.

Finally the warriors fit better than the clippers with skill sets that covered for each other’s weaknesses and a system that maximized their skills more.

You overlook this with the 2018 rockets too they’re not as good as the clippers talent wise but I give them a decent chance vs the clips because of that..

Klay turns into a liability on defense in the playoffs. Harrell seems to be more well balanced player on both ends, while Klay is more one dimensional.

Beverly is the ultimate role player. His on/off stats look great. On top of that, the best 2 man lineup for clippers has been Kawhi/Beverly at +17.1

Kawhi/Beverly out there is similar Kawhi/Manu defense back in 2014. Clippers also have a bad record without Beverly for years now.

Beverly in a vacuum yeah he kind of sucks on offense but so does Draymond.

[Smoke117]

Klay turns into a liability on defense in the playoffs. Harrell seems to be more well balanced player on both ends, while Klay is more one dimensional.

Beverly is the ultimate role player. His on/off stats look great. On top of that, the best 2 man lineup for clippers has been Kawhi/Beverly at +17.1

Kawhi/Beverly out there is similar Kawhi/Manu defense back in 2014. Clippers also have a bad record without Beverly for years now.

Beverly in a vacuum yeah he kind of sucks on offense but so does Draymond.

Paul George >>>>>>> Kawhi Leonard

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Paul George >>>>>>> Kawhi Leonard

All the stats prove that Kawhi has carried George this season, we just went over all of that. Finally, George is playing well. George has never had a playoff run like 2019 Kawhi. He's the 2nd fiddle to Kawhi only.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Paul George >>>>>>> Kawhi Leonard

I'll agree with you if it's the Paul George from OKC pre shoulder injury

[ArbitraryWater]

One thing that is interesting about Kawhi is because of load management we get a lot of full games with him out, plus whatever games he winds up missing due to injuries. He tends to pick games against scrub teams to rest so you would think they would at least maintain their performance without him but they don't. They are 6-7.

The games he has missed are against: Jazz, Bucks, Pelicans, OKC, Grizz, Pacers, Bulls, Knicks, Hawks, Kings, Cavs.

They have given up the following in those games: 110, 129, 132, 101, 88, 119, 99, 109, 118, 132, 102, 124, 92. That is an average of 111.9. For the season as a whole they give up 109.5, so a 2.4 negative shift against the average (and obviously more compared to the Kawhi games), despite playing weaker than average comp in those games.



Isn't that the category his "advocates" kept invoking in that other thread? He can't have MVP impact via playmaking, rebounding. He is an elite defender but not at the Kawhi level. If he can score 28 PPG like he did last year, that is what makes him a MVP level impact guy instead of an all-NBA third team type that he was for the rest of his prime.

The problem is he has done it exactly once in his career. The first question is: is 19' an outlier or is that the "new normal" for PG for the next few years? The second is can he maintain it in the PO. If he does both, the Clippers will be unbeatable if healthy since we know Kawhi is guaranteed dominance in the PO. Even if he falters they are equipped to overcome it with Kawhi, Williams, Harrell, Morris all there to pick up the slack.

The thing is, you should check who else missed the games Kawhi sat. They usually missed other core players, sometimes even PG.

[Doranku]

Paul George >>>>>>> Kawhi Leonard

Have you graduated whiskey and moved onto pure gasoline?