Kevin Durant vs Hakeem Olajuwon

[Lebron23]

Who's the better player? Who rank higher in the all time lists? The Snake vs The Dreamshake

[Roundball_Rock]

Hakeem the better player, greater AT.

[SouBeachTalents]

Durant's title runs were more impressive, but I'll still give the edge to Hakeem

[tpols]

Honestly... Durant might be better even though he's way less respectable. His shooting and offensive ceiling is GOAT plus defense very good.

actually checking out the playoff splits, hakeem is better. Durant is great but Hakeem's metrics are off the charts good.

[Doranku]

Durant's title runs were more impressive, but I'll still give the edge to Hakeem

:kobe:

[Whoah10115]

Funny thread.

[tontoz]

A lot of people overlook Hakeem's issues. 4 straight first round exits in his prime. He was widely seen as a black hole that didnt play well with others. Settled for jumpers a lot. Scoring efficiency not that good.

Hakeem was a far better defender but Durant is a far better scorer. Which i would pick depends on the rest of the team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

As a 1st option scorer or offensive anchor, I take Kevin Durant. Overall player its Hakeem. Higher all time ranks is also easily Hakeem. Durant needs a ring in Brooklyn to cement his legacy. Sure Durant has a few rings but legacy wise he feels more like Harden/Westbrook/Malone type player.

[tpols]

A lot of people overlook Hakeem's issues. 4 straight first round exits in his prime. He was widely seen as a black hole that didnt play well with others. Settled for jumpers a lot. Scoring efficiency not that good.

Hakeem was a far better defender but Durant is a far better scorer. Which i would pick depends on the rest of the team.

How was Hakeem's scoring efficiency not good?

His first two long playoff runs 20 and 10 games a piece, he averaged 28 PPG on 120+ ORTG. That's as elite efficiency as you're ever gonna see and right on par with Durant. In 1988, he averaged 38/17 on a just unbelievable 134 ORTG. His best teammate was a fella named "Sleepy Floyd" who averaged 18 ppg with negative splits. I get what you're saying 38 PPG and 1.8 APG basically means anytime he touched the ball he was looking to score, but shit... when you do it that well I really cant blame the guy for losing.

[Roundball_Rock]

Hakeem was 2nd in scoring once, 3rd twice, and 4th. He peaked at 28 PPG but it was in a lower scoring era. Durant is the better scorer (peaked at 32 PPG) but the difference is being overblown. Hakeem also was a great passer for a center, Durant isn't a great passer for a SF.

Hakeem's 2 rings were won the hard way, the first time with Otis Thorpe as his team's second best player.

[PeroAntic]

Difficult choice, theyre close. I give it to Hakeem, his help to opposition difficulty ratio was lower than Durant for their repeats, and hes been much better on defense while only slightly worse on offense.

[getting_old]

A lot of people overlook Hakeem's issues. 4 straight first round exits in his prime. He was widely seen as a black hole that didnt play well with others. Settled for jumpers a lot. Scoring efficiency not that good.

Hakeem was a far better defender but Durant is a far better scorer. Which i would pick depends on the rest of the team.



He was a headcase his first few seasons. Developed into one of the best ever.

Biggest knock is failing to get to the Finals during the Bulls dominance, except the years with no or minimal MJ.... strange...

[Roundball_Rock]

Biggest knock is failing to get to the Finals during the Bulls dominance, except the years with no or minimal MJ.... strange...

That narrows it down to 6 seasons and during those his teams had a legit shot only in 93' and 97'. It isn't like they were perennial contenders getting bounced early in the West or something those years. 92' they didn't even make the playoffs.

Some of it is simply those two years in the middle coincide with Hakeem's three year peak.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem and its not really close. Hakeem scoring was more efficient while being doubled and tripled, better rebounder, better passer, better paint or rim protector defender, better 1 on 1 defender better shot blocker, better stealer and floor defender etc. Durant is the better shooter that's about it.

[Rudeboy3]

The question should be Giannis VS hakeem, an the answer is giannis. I made a thread about this over a year ago but the mods got triggered and deleted it cause i was spittin too many faxs

[bizil]

IF the scoring is close, u gotta go to the floor game for the tiebreaker a lot of the time when it comes to who is the better player. And Dream is the best two way center of all time. At his peak at LEGIT 10 at scoring and defending his position. That's MJ type territory. In today's game, a peak Dream would TOTALLY change how centers are perceived in today's game. No centers are considered in the argument for best player in the world. Because guys like a Giannis moved to the PF spot. And his secondary position could be SF just as easily as it could be center. Embid and Joker are top 10-12 players in the world. BUT the Dream was the closest we saw to an MJ level talent at the center spot. I'm talking in terms of skill, dominance, and athletic ability as a package. NO CENTER combined all those elements like Dream.

So give me the Dream EVEN THOUGH it could come down to what you need. KD and Dream are around the same territory in terms of peak-prime value at their respective position. Mt. Rushmore type guys for the SF and C respectively. So KD FOR SURE is a valid name to compare. And GOAT wise, I would give Dream the edge too. I got him #11 GOAT wise. BUT KD is top 15 GOAT caliber at this point in his career. And who knows how much he could go up the charts.

[Facepalm]

Hakeem dragged the 94 Rockets to the chip by himself. Durant had 3 hall of famers and couldn't get it done. Had to run and join one of the most stacked teams of all time. Put Durant on the championship Rockets and he would be a first round exit.

[tontoz]

How was Hakeem's scoring efficiency not good?

His first two long playoff runs 20 and 10 games a piece, he averaged 28 PPG on 120+ ORTG. That's as elite efficiency as you're ever gonna see and right on par with Durant. In 1988, he averaged 38/17 on a just unbelievable 134 ORTG. His best teammate was a fella named "Sleepy Floyd" who averaged 18 ppg with negative splits. I get what you're saying 38 PPG and 1.8 APG basically means anytime he touched the ball he was looking to score, but shit... when you do it that well I really cant blame the guy for losing.


Cherry picking can make anyone an efficient scorer. For his career Hakeem had a 55.3% TS in the regular season, not great for a big. In comparison DRob scored the same ppg with a TS of 58.3% and he wasnt a great shooter either.

[Roundball_Rock]

Cherry picking can make anyone an efficient scorer. For his career Hakeem had a 55.3% TS in the regular season, not great for a big. In comparison DRob scored the same ppg with a TS of 58.3% and he wasnt a great shooter either.

The difference is the playoffs. RS TS % in parentheses.

Prime Efficiency for 90's Era Star Centers

Ewing 88’-97’: 52.8% (56.3%)
Robinson 90’-98’: 54.9% (59.0%)
Shaq 94’-05’: 56.7% (58.4%)
Mourning 94’-00’: 54.8% (58.7%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)
Daughtery 88'-94' 58.8% (59.2%)

Hakeem blows away Robinson, Mourning and embarrasses Ewing. Daughtery beats him--but Daughtery's 21.7% usage is 3rd/4th option volume. Hakeem is the only one who improved--and considerably, a full 2%, despite PO=facing tougher defenses.

How about Durant versus his peers?

10’s Stars Playoff Efficiency Versus Norm

LeBron 06’-16’: 56.7% (59.2%)
LeBron 06’-18’: 57.9% (59.6%)
Durant 10’-19’: 59.7% (62.6%)
George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Kawhi 16’-19’: 62.8% (60.9%)
Butler 15’-19’: 55.5% (57.9%)

This is boosted by joining arguably the GOAT team. He wasn't this efficient without Curry, Klay, Green, Iggy around him. He was at 57.5% in OKC, jumped to 64.2% on GS.

[tontoz]

The difference is the playoffs. RS TS % in parentheses.

Prime Efficiency for 90's Era Star Centers

Ewing 88’-97’: 52.8% (56.3%)
Robinson 90’-98’: 54.9% (59.0%)
Shaq 94’-05’: 56.7% (58.4%)
Mourning 94’-00’: 54.8% (58.7%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)

Daughtery 88'-94' 58.8% (59.2%)

Hakeem blows away Robinson, Mourning and embarrasses Ewing. Daughtery beats him--but Daughtery's 21.7% usage is 3rd/4th option volume.

How about Durant versus his peers?

10’s Stars Playoff Efficiency Versus Norm

LeBron 06’-16’: 56.7% (59.2%)
LeBron 06’-18’: 57.9% (59.6%)
Durant 10’-19’: 59.7% (62.6%)
George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Kawhi 16’-19’: 62.8% (60.9%)
Butler 15’-19’: 55.5% (57.9%)

This is boosted by joining arguably the GOAT team. He wasn't this efficient without Curry, Klay, Green, Iggy around him. He was at 57.5% in OKC, jumped to 64.2% on GS.


Hakeem's 55.8% TS is the lowest in your post.

Hakeem had a bunch of first round exits. His 145 playoff games are drawfed by 1238 regular season games. I'll go with the bigger sample size thank you.

Hakeem did have the best playoff series i ever saw though, from anyone.

[tpols]

Cherry picking can make anyone an efficient scorer. For his career Hakeem had a 55.3% TS in the regular season, not great for a big. In comparison DRob scored the same ppg with a TS of 58.3% and he wasnt a great shooter either.

I dont give much a **** about regular season compared to playoffs. That's a weak analysis. Compounded by the fact that, despite Hakeem's lower regular season efficiency, he totally shit on david robinson when it mattered most in the playoffs.

[tpols]

The difference is the playoffs. RS TS % in parentheses.

Prime Efficiency for 90's Era Star Centers

Ewing 88’-97’: 52.8% (56.3%)
Robinson 90’-98’: 54.9% (59.0%)
Shaq 94’-05’: 56.7% (58.4%)
Mourning 94’-00’: 54.8% (58.7%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)
Daughtery 88'-94' 58.8% (59.2%)

Hakeem blows away Robinson, Mourning and embarrasses Ewing. Daughtery beats him--but Daughtery's 21.7% usage is 3rd/4th option volume. Hakeem is the only one who improved--and considerably, a full 2%, despite PO=facing tougher defenses.

How about Durant versus his peers?

10’s Stars Playoff Efficiency Versus Norm

LeBron 06’-16’: 56.7% (59.2%)
LeBron 06’-18’: 57.9% (59.6%)
Durant 10’-19’: 59.7% (62.6%)
George 13’-19’: 57.1% (56.5%)
Kawhi 14’-19’: 61.9% (60.2%)
Kawhi 16’-19’: 62.8% (60.9%)
Butler 15’-19’: 55.5% (57.9%)

This is boosted by joining arguably the GOAT team. He wasn't this efficient without Curry, Klay, Green, Iggy around him. He was at 57.5% in OKC, jumped to 64.2% on GS.

So now you realize rate of successful shotmaking and offense matters huh? :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

His 145 playoff games are drawfed by 1238 regular season games. I'll go with the bigger sample size thank you.

You could say that about anyone. Ewing: 139 playoff games, 1,183 RS games. Robinson: 987 RS games, 123 PO games. Durant 849 RS games, 139 PO games. Daughtery: 548 RS games, 41 games. Jordan 1,072 RS games, 179 PO games.

Not surprising since there are 82 RS games each year, when Hakeem played a maximum of 26 PO games if you somehow went 5/7/7/7 (28 now).

[SouBeachTalents]

Real talk, does anyone think Durant wins a single playoff series with the '94 or '95 Rockets?

[Roundball_Rock]

Real talk, does anyone think Durant wins a single playoff series with the '94 or '95 Rockets?

They would beat the Blazers in the first round in 94' with KD but that is it.

The reverse: put Hakeem on OKC and then GS from 2017-2019 in place of KD. OKC does better with Hakeem, GS the same, most likely.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hakeem because he's proven to be the tougher player, mentally. Unlike Durant, Hakeem stayed with his organization and took his playoff lumps. Grew with his teams and finally broke through with one of the GOAT postseason runs. Hakeem also did more with less and could anchor a defense while maintaining elite commond on O.

Hakeem scores 46 points vs Portland (1994 WC1R GM2) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzQKjh3J5QY)
Hakeem closes out the Jazz - 22/10/6/4/7 (G5 - 1994 WCF) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvOhHwDfGec)
Hakeem Olajuwon closes out Phoenix - 37/17/5 (G7 - 1994 NBA Playoffs) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZAHUM7orDU)
Hakeem w/ a 30-point double-double vs Ewing in the Finals. Elimination game to tie the series 3-3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9DjbOWD4Gs)

Those performances were all in ONE playoff run. But en-route to a ring. That year, Hakeem also led Houston to the second best defense (behind Robinson's Spurs). Overall was second in blocks behind Mutombo, third in PPG, #4 in box plus minus and #2 in player efficiency. In the postseason, Hakeem was #1 in points, #2 in box plus minus (#1 in defensive box-plus minus), #2 in player efficiency. Again all in one year.

Durant is one of the best scorers ever, but Hakeem had the entire package. And is less prone to fold with everything equal.

[tontoz]

I dont give much a **** about regular season compared to playoffs. That's a weak analysis. Compounded by the fact that, despite Hakeem's lower regular season efficiency, he totally shit on david robinson when it mattered most in the playoffs.


History doesn't share your view. The regular season is the best predictor of playoff success.

If Hakeem could dominate Robinson in the playoffs (yes i watched that series) why didn't he dominate him in the regular season?

https://stathead.com/tiny/c0vxz

Either he was just coasting too much in the regular season or that series was a small sample anomaly. And if he was frequently coasting in the regular season that would mean a lower playoff seed. Maybe that's a reason why he has 8 first round exits on his resume.

[SouBeachTalents]

They would beat the Blazers in the first round in 94' with KD but that is it.

The reverse: put Hakeem on OKC and then GS from 2017-2019 in place of KD. OKC does better with Hakeem, GS the same, most likely.
Even that is extremely iffy to me, Hakeem averaged 34/11/5/2/4 in what was a pretty competitive series. Best case scenario Durant matches his scoring while the Rockets have a seismic drop off defensively

[tpols]

History doesn't share your view. The regular season is the best predictor of playoff success.


That... is just total bullshit. Kyle Lowry and Demar Derozan would like to have a word with you.

[SouBeachTalents]

That... is just total bullshit. Kyle Lowry and Demar Derozan would like to have a word with you.
As would Ewing, Malone, D-Rob, Harden etc.

[Lion's pride]

how about this for an answer, both equally great at heir respective positions... Tie breaker though is Hakeem as I believe Center was and should still be (but isn't) the MVP position..

[72-10]

While Durant certainly has the offensive edge, it's more than made up by Hakeem's impeccable footwork (though it helped more on offense), agility, timing and impact on the defensive end. Still clearly Hakeem.

[Roundball_Rock]

Even that is extremely iffy to me, Hakeem averaged 34/11/5/2/4 in what was a pretty competitive series. Best case scenario Durant matches his scoring while the Rockets have a seismic drop off defensively

Good points. The ceiling is winning one round with KD, maybe they don't even do that. With Hakeem they went all the way.

What KD teams do much worse with Hakeem? GS does the same with Hakeem.


As would Ewing, Malone, D-Rob, Harden etc.

Yeah, this is a rare point of view being expressed. Playoffs=tougher defenses (better teams, teams focus on your team defensively in a series versus playing multiple teams in a given week) and more pressure. If the Clippers lose this game to the Mavs tonight no one will care. The RS doesn't generate much scrutiny outside of a handful of high profile games (e.g., Christmas games), often rivalry games (like the LAL-LAC games this year).

[tpols]

As would Ewing, Malone, D-Rob, Harden etc.

All those guys are truly great players. But the trash bros showed that you could be dominant in a regular season, but ass when it matters in the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

DeRozan and Lowry have never dominated anything. They have a combined 3 all-NBA teams--no first teams and neither was ever a MVP candidate. Being good isn't the same as being dominant.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hakeem because he's proven to be the tougher player, mentally. Unlike Durant, Hakeem stayed with his organization and took his playoff lumps. Grew with his teams and finally broke through with one of the GOAT postseason runs. Hakeem also did more with less and could anchor a defense while maintaining elite command on O.

Hakeem scores 46 points vs Portland (1994 WC1R GM2) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzQKjh3J5QY)
Hakeem closes out the Jazz - 22/10/6/4/7 (G5 - 1994 WCF) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvOhHwDfGec)
Hakeem closes out Phoenix - 37/17/5 (G7 - 1994 NBA Playoffs) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZAHUM7orDU)
Hakeem w/ a 30-point double-double vs Ewing in the Finals. Elimination game to tie the series 3-3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9DjbOWD4Gs)

Those performances were all in ONE playoff run. But en-route to a ring. That year, Hakeem also led Houston to the second best defense (behind Robinson's Spurs). Overall was second in blocks behind Mutombo, third in PPG, #4 in box plus minus and #2 in player efficiency. In the postseason, Hakeem was #1 in points, #2 in box plus minus (#1 in defensive box-plus minus), #2 in player efficiency. Again all in one year.

Durant is one of the best scorers ever, but Hakeem had the entire package. And was less prone to fold with everything equal.

Will also add that Hakeem shot 57%TS.

Not bad for someone who didn't take threes. But often took difficult shots :applause:

[tontoz]

That... is just total bullshit. Kyle Lowry and Demar Derozan would like to have a word with you.

Over the last 40 years a 1 seed has won the title 27 times. During that time frame only 1 team seeded lower than 3 (Rockets in 95) has won a title.

Like i said, history doesn't agree with you.

And of course there were many times that the consensus best team didn't have a 1 seed due to injuries.

[72-10]

Over the last 40 years a 1 seed has won the title 27 times. During that time frame only 1 team seeded lower than 3 (Rockets in 95) has won a title.

Like i said, history doesn't agree with you.

And of course there were many times that the consensus best team didn't have a 1 seed due to injuries.

The eighth-seeded Spurs won the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season.

[tontoz]

The eighth-seeded Spurs won the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season.


LOL the Spurs were the top seed.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1999_standings.html

[72-10]

oh rite, thinking of the Knicks my b

anyhow, I think Hakeem would shut down Kevin in a one-on-one.

[tontoz]

oh rite, thinking of the Knicks my b

anyhow, I think Hakeem would shut down Kevin in a one-on-one.

I think Hakeem would do well in this era because he could defend perimeter players on switches. Also the lane is more open for him to operate offensively. Doubt he would ever shoot 3s though.

Great player he just wasn't a guy you could count on to bring it every night. Best college player i ever saw. Watching him in college i was like W T F. Literally nobody talked about taking Jordan number 1 in the draft because Hakeem was so scary.

[72-10]

do you think Hakeem had more, like, raw, untapped potential coming out of college than Mike J?

[tontoz]

do you think Hakeem had more, like, raw, untapped potential coming out of college than Mike J?

That was the perception at the time.

MJ was held back in college by his coach Dean Smith. Jordan was better than anybody knew he just didn't get the chance to show it at UNC. When he played for the Olympic Team after the draft the coach Bobby Knight said Jordan the best player he had ever seen and he wasn't known for hyperbole. If the draft was held after the Olympics then Jordan might have gone number 1.

[HoopsNY]

Honestly... Durant might be better even though he's way less respectable. His shooting and offensive ceiling is GOAT plus defense very good.

actually checking out the playoff splits, hakeem is better. Durant is great but Hakeem's metrics are off the charts good.

Durant and "very good defense" don't go in the same sentence. He is one of the best offensive players ever, sure. But Hakeem could give you 25-27 ppg and is arguably the greatest defensive player, ever. The two are not in the same universe.

[HoopsNY]

A lot of people overlook Hakeem's issues. 4 straight first round exits in his prime. He was widely seen as a black hole that didnt play well with others. Settled for jumpers a lot. Scoring efficiency not that good.

Hakeem was a far better defender but Durant is a far better scorer. Which i would pick depends on the rest of the team.

After losing a HOF level teammate to career ending injuries together with 2 starters and one 6th man to drug abuse. Two of them got banned by the NBA. That is often left out of the conversation. Houston was the dynasty that never was, and none of that was Hakeem's fault.

And I don't know about KD being a "far better" scorer. Hakeem's prime saw him average nearly 24 PPG. KD is still in his prime averaging 27 PPG. And Hakeem played a bulk of his prime in a much more defensive era.

In the playoffs in Hakeem's prime (1985-99), he put up nearly 27 PPG to KD's 29 PPG. So the difference in scoring is not monumental. And again, that's without factoring in a bulk of it coming in a more defensive era.

[r0drig0lac]

akeem >>>>>>>>

[HoopsNY]

The question should be Giannis VS hakeem, an the answer is giannis. I made a thread about this over a year ago but the mods got triggered and deleted it cause i was spittin too many faxs

The answer is Giannis who has literally done nothing to prove himself in the playoffs? That's laughable.

[Whoah10115]

It isn't close. At his peak you can argue Hakeem is the best center to play. A peak Hakeem is only not the best player in the world right now if LeBron is still really in his prime.

Hakeem is not any less a scorer than Durant. Like Durant he can tangle himself up and not really raise others for stretches, but he could raise others at a much higher level and did so in big situations. He never had Westbrook. Stupid or not, he's a great player.

Guys are so desperate to hype up they need to evaluate current players by their current standing in the game and evaluate ex players by a "I don't know who Craig Elho's backup was" Trump-level ignorance of history.

It's Hakeem. Now shutup.

[HoopsNY]

Hakeem's 55.8% TS is the lowest in your post.

Hakeem had a bunch of first round exits. His 145 playoff games are drawfed by 1238 regular season games. I'll go with the bigger sample size thank you.

Hakeem did have the best playoff series i ever saw though, from anyone.

You're not being objective here. Look at Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq's TS% in their primes.

Shaq '92-'07: 58%
Hakeem '84-'99: 56%
Ewing '85-'98: 56%
Robinson '89-'00: 59%

The difference is not drastic at all.

Robinson, Ewing, and Hakeem were all around 50-52% FG% for their primes with Shaq being closer to 59%. And that's only because Shaq stayed around the rim for literally every scoring opportunity. And Hakeem shot more mid-range jumpers than Robinson.

[NBAGOAT]

You're not being objective here. Look at Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq's TS% in their primes.

Shaq '92-'07: 58%
Hakeem '84-'99: 56%
Ewing '85-'98: 56%
Robinson '89-'00: 59%

The difference is not drastic at all. Robinson, Ewing, and Hakeem were all around 50-52% for their primes with Shaq being closer to 59%. And that's only because Shaq stayed around the rim for literally every scoring opportunity. And Hakeem shot more mid-range jumpers than Robinson.

i got hakeem over kd but kd has a significant efficiency edge on his peers. his lowest ts% since 2013 was last year at 63.1%. Basketball reference has era adjusted efficiency now. KD's lowest since 2012 is 113 again last year and often over 115(where 100 is league average). Hakeem's highest ever is 109.

[HoopsNY]

I've said it time and time again, if Hakeem's teammates weren't severe drug addicts and Ralph Sampson doesn't have career ending injuries at the age of 25, then the Rockets become the next dynasty, possibly well into the 90s. MJ might not have sniffed a ring until 1996 (okay hyperbole, but you get the point).

Hakeem was a deadly force. I watched players like Penny, Nick Anderson, Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, KJ, etc change lanes and stop their momentum just because they saw Hakeem.

Look at how young Akeem played against All-Defensive 1st team Mark Eaton in his rookie season in the 1st round. Look at how he shut down Robert Parish in the '86 finals. Look at how he played against Kareem in the WCF.

Hakeem wasn't some anomaly. He was the real deal doing it against the best stars the league had to offer in the low post. He was a monster and is severely underrated.

[HoopsNY]

i got hakeem over kd but kd has a significant efficiency edge on his peers. his lowest ts% since 2013 was last year at 63.1%. Basketball reference has era adjusted efficiency now. KD's lowest since 2012 is 113 again last year and often over 115(where 100 is league average). Hakeem's highest ever is 109.

I'm not familiar with this advanced statistic, but just on a cursory level, guys like Alonzo Mourning, Robert Parish, DeAndre Jordan, Patrick Ewing, Vlade Divac, etc have posted higher eFG+ than Hakeem, so how reliable is it, really? And I'm not even trying to argue that KD is not the better scorer. He clearly is. My argument is the difference isn't monumental.

[NBAGOAT]

I'm not familiar with this advanced statistic, but just on a cursory level, guys like Alonzo Mourning, Robert Parish, DeAndre Jordan, Patrick Ewing, Vlade Divac, etc have posted higher eFG+ than Hakeem, so how reliable is it, really? And I'm not even trying to argue that KD is not the better scorer. He clearly is. My argument is the difference isn't monumental.

It’s not advanced. Just ts%/league average ts%*100. Therefore should be completely reliable. I wouldn’t say it’s monumental either but it’s not just slight

[Phoenix]

Difficult choice, theyre close. I give it to Hakeem, his help to opposition difficulty ratio was lower than Durant for their repeats, and hes been much better on defense while only slightly worse on offense.

Its not that difficult or particularly close as far as their legacy. They're both GOAT tier talents at their position, and people will throw all the numbers around as normal. But Durant losing to the Warriors then joining them for a back to back, how good that team was? If Hakeem loses to the Celtics in 86 then joins them and rides shotgun to two rings, what does that tell me about him as far as leading a team to a title? Not much, which is why KDs rings in context don't carry as much weight as he figured they would ( and dont take my word for it, he's on record as saying winning didnt make him as happy as he expected. I wonder why).

The Warriors won 73 with Harrison Barnes and barely lost in 2016. Theres a number of players who could have filled that spot and won a championship the following season. Hell, KD himself could have come back in 2017 with OKC ( I think if he re-signed Al Horford joins the Thunder). With the nuts and bolts of the same team that pissed away a 3-1 lead on GS? They had a great shot to actually close the deal the next season. But what happened happened, and 3 years later we're comparing him to someone who didnt shortcut their way into rings and went through a gauntlet of the leagues best centers plus Barkley, Malone etc on the way to doing so( the 95 run was entirely on the road).

We need to pump the brakes a bit here. Hakeems back to back elevated him to top 10 status. KDs elevated the number of burner accounts he uses to defend himself from people who don't think his championships catapulted him to some higher tier. In the 2018 offseason we were talking more about Rondo joining the Lakers than KD winning back to backs with finals MVPs to boot.

[Airupthere]

Just skills, I would pick KD. But then they play different positions so it's hard to say.

You can't factor out mentality and attitude though, so as a complete package, I would easily go with Hakeem. Best you'd get from KD would be 2 years, whereas you have a career-long worth commitment from Hakeem.

[Facepalm]

That was the perception at the time.

MJ was held back in college by his coach Dean Smith. Jordan was better than anybody knew he just didn't get the chance to show it at UNC. When he played for the Olympic Team after the draft the coach Bobby Knight said Jordan the best player he had ever seen and he wasn't known for hyperbole. If the draft was held after the Olympics then Jordan might have gone number 1.

Quite possibly but remember that big men were deemed much more valuable back then.

[Roundball_Rock]

After losing a HOF level teammate to career ending injuries together with 2 starters and one 6th man to drug abuse. Two of them got banned by the NBA. That is often left out of the conversation. Houston was the dynasty that never was, and none of that was Hakeem's fault.

And I don't know about KD being a "far better" scorer. Hakeem's prime saw him average nearly 24 PPG. KD is still in his prime averaging 27 PPG. And Hakeem played a bulk of his prime in a much more defensive era.

In the playoffs in Hakeem's prime (1985-99), he put up nearly 27 PPG to KD's 29 PPG. So the difference in scoring is not monumental. And again, that's without factoring in a bulk of it coming in a more defensive era.

All good points. Yeah, people on ISH go overboard with 2, 3, or 4 PPG differences. Some of that margin is simply due to being in a lower scoring era.


The answer is Giannis who has literally done nothing to prove himself in the playoffs? That's laughable.

I am a Giannis fan but it is too early to anoint him anything. He has top 10 AT potential but too early. I don't think you necessarily need to win a chip but you need to at least perform well in the PO and he had a poor (by his standards of course) ECF last year.


i got hakeem over kd but kd has a significant efficiency edge on his peers. his lowest ts% since 2013 was last year at 63.1%

In the RS--not in the PO. Hakeem, Kawhi are the efficiency PO kings for their positions in their eras.


ust on a cursory level, guys like Alonzo Mourning, Robert Parish, DeAndre Jordan, Patrick Ewing, Vlade Divac, etc have posted higher eFG+ than Hakeem

Hakeem is ahead of Ewing career vs. career. BBR isn't letting me look at prime vs. prime but it can be plausible. Look at D. Jordan: all he did was dunk.


f Hakeem loses to the Celtics in 86 then joins them and rides shotgun to two rings, what does that tell me about him as far as leading a team to a title?

Good point.


We need to pump the brakes a bit here. Hakeems back to back elevated him to top 10 status. KDs elevated the number of burner accounts he uses to defend himself from people who don't think his championships catapulted him to some higher tier.

:roll:

[insidious301]

Likely Hakeem because of defense. Both are great scorers with Durant being technically better however the defensive gap is steep. If your team was desperate for shooting and volume scoring, I might understand taking Durant however the best of Hakeem vs the best of Durant isn't so much about what your team needs. In most situations, management would just go with the better player.

[HoopsNY]

Its not that difficult or particularly close as far as their legacy. They're both GOAT tier talents at their position, and people will throw all the numbers around as normal. But Durant losing to the Warriors then joining them for a back to back, how good that team was? If Hakeem loses to the Celtics in 86 then joins them and rides shotgun to two rings, what does that tell me about him as far as leading a team to a title? Not much, which is why KDs rings in context don't carry as much weight as he figured they would ( and dont take my word for it, he's on record as saying winning didnt make him as happy as he expected. I wonder why).

The Warriors won 73 with Harrison Barnes and barely lost in 2016. Theres a number of players who could have filled that spot and won a championship the following season. Hell, KD himself could have come back in 2017 with OKC ( I think if he re-signed Al Horford joins the Thunder). With the nuts and bolts of the same team that pissed away a 3-1 lead on GS? They had a great shot to actually close the deal the next season. But what happened happened, and 3 years later we're comparing him to someone who didnt shortcut their way into rings and went through a gauntlet of the leagues best centers plus Barkley, Malone etc on the way to doing so( the 95 run was entirely on the road).

We need to pump the brakes a bit here. Hakeems back to back elevated him to top 10 status. KDs elevated the number of burner accounts he uses to defend himself from people who don't think his championships catapulted him to some higher tier. In the 2018 offseason we were talking more about Rondo joining the Lakers than KD winning back to backs with finals MVPs to boot.

KD is a phenomenal player with or without the Warriors. Having said that, everything you said is spot on. The difference is Hakeem's leadership still led to a finals appearance in just his second season, and then an eventual back-to-back title runs without the mountain of support. All of this comes with the demise of a dynasty that Hakeem had to endure in the midst of his prime, and in a great conference.

People act like Hakeem did it against David Robinson alone. They forget young Hakeem and how he stood out against guys like Parish, Kareem, and Eaton. Hakeem was no joke and his game 6 performance against Seattle in the '87 playoffs might have been one of the best, if not the best performance in a playoff game.

Hakeem went for 49 points, 25 rebounds, 6 blocks, 2 stls, on 58% (85% from the line). I've watched KD his entire career and can't recall him doing that in an elimination game.

[Lion's pride]

On KD being a better scorer, I feel like this is a bit off.. Yes KD's versatility and skills for a SF is better.. But I am willing to bet that Hakeem had to be or was doubled FAR more than KD because quite simply one on one Hakeem would have put up far better scoring numbers..

Or in another way of thinking, Shaq did not have much scoring skills.. Yet was a better scorer than most players in history..

See my point gents, carry on..

[Phoenix]

On KD being a better scorer, I feel like this is a bit off.. Yes KD's versatility and skills for a SF is better.. But I am willing to bet that Hakeem had to be or was doubled FAR more than KD because quite simply one on one Hakeem would have put up far better scoring numbers..

Or in another way of thinking, Shaq did not have much scoring skills.. Yet was a better scorer than most players in history..

See my point gents, carry on..

KD could isolate on the Warriors because he had Curry and Klay there to keep the defense honest. You simply couldn't afford to think about doubling him. Hakeem would get doubled and then kick out to the shooters but the league back then wasnt as built around the 3pointer like it is now. It was still inside-out basketball when Dream was doing his thing.

[kawhileonard2]

Hakeem. Won for a franchise that never won before.

[Airupthere]

If they’re good KD could team up with them

[houston]

Hakeem slightly better than Durant.

[72-10]

Durant's patented stiff-arm push-off is really working wonders for him on offense. When he sits on the bench you can see his team fall apart before his eyes.

[tontoz]

In his last 3 full seasons with OKC Durant put up the following numbers:

12/13 28.1 ppg 64.7% TS
13/14 32.0 ppg 63.3% TS
15/16 28.2 ppg 63.4% TS

The narrative that his efficiency suddenly jumped after joining the Warriors is nonsense. He came into the league at 19 and it took a few years for him to reach peak production.

[tontoz]

It should also be noted that Hakeem finished top 5 in scoring only 3 times in his career. KD led the league in scoring 4 times. I am pretty comfortable saying Durant was a far better scorer.

[Roundball_Rock]

In his last 3 full seasons with OKC Durant put up the following numbers:

12/13 28.1 ppg 64.7% TS
13/14 32.0 ppg 63.3% TS
15/16 28.2 ppg 63.4% TS

The narrative that his efficiency suddenly jumped after joining the Warriors is nonsense. He came into the league at 19 and it took a few years for him to reach peak production.

It comes from the playoffs. RS TS % in parentheses.

12'-16' PO: 57.9% (63.2%)
17'-19' PO: 64.2% (64.0%)

Those are stark splits. He declined over 5% in 12'-16' but in GS he manged to actually slightly increase in the playoffs.

[tontoz]

It comes from the playoffs. RS TS % in parentheses.

12'-16' PO: 57.9% (63.2%)
17'-19' PO: 64.2% (64.0%)

Those are stark splits. He declined over 5% in 12'-16' but in GS he manged to actually slightly increase in the playoffs.

Once again we are in small sample size theater, conveniently leaving out that he had a 63% TS in OKC's only Finals run.

[Roundball_Rock]

Once again we are in small sample size theater, conveniently leaving out that he had a 63% TS in OKC's only Finals run.

Most fans don't consider playoff careers "small sample size theater." You also can't invoke small sample sizes when 68 games are averaged together and then cherry pick the 20 most convenient from that sample. :oldlol:

If you add his first two playoff runs it becomes 57.5% across 91 games, versus 64.2% across 48 games in GS.

Spin away all you want but it is obvious he had a trend that magically disappeared alongside two other GOAT level shooters. Let's see what he does in Brooklyn. It has been 14 months. He should be "healed" at some point.

[HoopsNY]

It should also be noted that Hakeem finished top 5 in scoring only 3 times in his career. KD led the league in scoring 4 times. I am pretty comfortable saying Durant was a far better scorer.

You do make a good point here. In Hakeem's case, he doesn't have much of an excuse since he didn't play alongside top scorers. KD has and that didn't stop him from putting up big numbers. So I guess that does have to be considered.

[SouBeachTalents]

In his last 3 full seasons with OKC Durant put up the following numbers:

12/13 28.1 ppg 64.7% TS
13/14 32.0 ppg 63.3% TS
15/16 28.2 ppg 63.4% TS

The narrative that his efficiency suddenly jumped after joining the Warriors is nonsense. He came into the league at 19 and it took a few years for him to reach peak production.
It did suddenly jump after joining the Warriors :oldlol: He went from 58%TS & 33% from 3 in the playoffs on OKC to 64%TS & 40% from 3 on Golden State, a significant spike in efficiency. I've honestly never seen anyone try to dismiss playoff performance over being "too small a sample size" before :lol To me playoff performance is significantly more important than regular season, you're facing the best teams and getting their best effort every minute of the game

[tpols]

It did suddenly jump after joining the Warriors :oldlol: He went from 58%TS & 33% from 3 in the playoffs on OKC to 64%TS & 40% from 3 on Golden State, a significant spike in efficiency. I've honestly never seen anyone try to dismiss playoff performance over being "too small a sample size" before :lol To me playoff performance is significantly more important than regular season, you're facing the best teams and getting their best effort every minute of the game

Yup... all tontoz showed was that with OKC Durant went from a 64 TS player in the regular season to a 58 TS player in the playoffs. Big drop off. With the dubs, and specifically against Cleveland, the man hung 35 ppg on 70 TS. Just absolutely absurd, literal GOAT production.

[Roundball_Rock]

It did suddenly jump after joining the Warriors :oldlol: He went from 58%TS & 33% from 3 in the playoffs on OKC to 64%TS & 40% from 3 on Golden State, a significant spike in efficiency. I've honestly never seen anyone try to dismiss playoff performance over being "too small a sample size" before :lol To me playoff performance is significantly more important than regular season, you're facing the best teams and getting their best effort every minute of the game

Yeah I have never seen it either. Usually people go the other direction: narrow down entire careers to one series or one game.


He went from 58%TS & 33% from 3 in the playoffs on OKC to 64%TS & 40% from 3 on Golden State, a significant spike in efficiency

All overnight in his 10th season--this wasn't natural growth of a young player. This was a grizzled vet benefiting from his new teammates.

[insidious301]

Why would anyone ignore postseason play? What a bizarre take.

[tontoz]

68 games out of 988 games played is a small sample size. But if you want to focus on the playoffs.....Durant led the league in playoff scoring 4 times while in OKC. For his career he ranks 4th all time in playoff ppg at 29.09


In 11/12 and 12/13 Durant had no drop in efficiency during the playoffs. After the Harden trade he was forced to take more shots in the playoffs (3 more shots per game than 12/13) and his efficiency went down a bit. Let's not pretend like he was dogging it.

Who else did opposing defenses have to worry about? They were happy to let Westbrook shoot all the jumpers he wanted.

After he was traded to GS his shot attempts went down and naturally his efficiency went back up.

[red1]

kd is a bitch.




gotta give this one to the dream.

[insidious301]

68 games out of 988 games played is a small sample size. But if you want to focus on the playoffs.....Durant led the league in playoff scoring 4 times while in OKC. For his career he ranks 4th all time in playoff ppg at 29.09


In 11/12 and 12/13 Durant had no drop in efficiency during the playoffs. After the Harden trade he was forced to take more shots in the playoffs (3 more shots per game than 12/13) and his efficiency went down a bit. Let's not pretend like he was dogging it.

Who else did opposing defenses have to worry about? They were happy to let Westbrook shoot all the jumpers he wanted.

After he was traded to GS his shot attempts went down and naturally his efficiency went back up.

Everyone focuses on the playoffs. What do you mean if you "want" to?

[tontoz]

Everyone focuses on the playoffs. What do you mean if you "want" to?

You may not be aware of this but the MVP award doesn't count the playoffs.

I like to look at all the games, not just the playoffs.

[insidious301]

You may not be aware of this but the MVP award doesn't count the playoffs.

What does "MVP" have to do with you ignoring the playoffs. And deeming it a "small" sample? People focus on the playoffs just as they do the regular-season.

[tontoz]

What does "MVP" have to do with you ignoring the playoffs. And deeming it a "small" sample? People focus on the playoffs just as they do the regular-season.

Is English your 2nd language or something?

I look at all the games. I am not going to pick a handful of playoff runs out of an entire career to push a narrative.

[tontoz]

In 11/12 and 12/13 Durant had no drop in efficiency during the playoffs.

Correction. In 10/11 and 11/12 Durant had no drop in efficiency in the playoffs.

[insidious301]

Is English your 2nd language or something?

I look at all the games. I am not going to pick a handful of playoff runs out of an entire career to push a narrative.

That's a funny way of backtracking. You saw the playoff numbers that were posted, and then tried to brush them off as a "small" sample. But when we include the regular-season and playoffs, Durant's percentages all got better in GS, so they did in fact "jump". Contradicting your dumb claim.

[tontoz]

That's a funny way of backtracking. You saw the playoff numbers that were posted, and then tried to brush them off as a "small" sample. But when we include the regular-season and playoffs, Durant's percentages all got better in GS, so they did in fact "jump". Contradicting your dumb claim.

First of all, no they didn't. Regular season efficiency was virtually identical with both teams.

Secondly, relative to the regular season, Durant's playoff efficiency dropped only in the 3 years after the harden trade. That is 48 games. BTW Durant led the league in playoff scoring in all three seasons. With harden gone he forced up some shots he wouldn't ordinarily take.. so what?

In his first season with GS Durant took nearly 5 fewer shots per game in the playoffs than the 3 previous seasons with OKC.

[insidious301]

First of all, no they didn't. Regular season efficiency was virtually identical with both teams.

Secondly, relative to the regular season, Durant's playoff efficiency dropped only in the 3 years after the harden trade. That is 48 games. BTW Durant led the league in playoff scoring in all three seasons. With harden gone he forced up some shots he wouldn't ordinarily take.. so what?

In his first season with GS Durant took nearly 5 fewer shots per game in the playoffs than the 3 previous seasons with OKC.


But when we include the regular-season and playoffs, Durant's percentages all got better in GS, so they did in fact "jump".

You asked me if English was my second language, yet you are not comprehending what is being said. Again: When Durant's regular-season and playoff numbers are combined, they jumped immediately in GS. The keyword is combined. And the thing is, why would Durant not shoot better with more spacing? You're going against logic but also straying away from the point by cherry-picking. His numbers are what they are, and were better in GS.

[tontoz]

You asked me if English was my second language, yet you are not comprehending what is being said. Again: When Durant's regular-season and playoff numbers are combined, they jumped immediately in GS. The keyword is combined. And the thing is, why would Durant not shoot better with more spacing? You're going against logic but also straying away from the point by cherry-picking. His numbers are what they are, and were better in GS.

Correlation does not equal causation. Durant was only 19 when he was drafted. He was 28 when he went to GS. I think it is safe to say he was a much better player at 28 than he was 19-22 so of course his combined numbers will be better in GS. So what?

If you look at his last few full seasons with OKC vs his 3 with GS he is pretty much the same guy he just took fewer shots in the playoffs with GS.

[insidious301]

Correlation does not equal causation. Durant was only 19 when he was drafted. He was 28 when he went to GS. I think it is safe to say he was a much better player at 28 than he was 19-22 so of course his combined numbers will be better in GS. So what?

If you look at his last few full seasons with OKC vs his 3 with GS he is pretty much the same guy he just took fewer shots in the playoffs with GS.

Nobody is arguing that it does. But it is obvious playing with better players would alleviate defensive pressure. That is just common sense. It is also why Durant shot better in GS, contrary to your claim.

[tontoz]

Nobody is arguing that it does. But it is obvious playing with better players would alleviate defensive pressure. That is just common sense. It is also why Durant shot better in GS, contrary to your claim.

Correction, it is part of the reason he shot better in the playoffs in GS.

It isn't just an issue of opposing defenses. It is also a question of the confidence he has in his teammates. If he lacks confidence in his teammates, as I believe he did after the harden trade, then he will be more inclined to take tough, contested shots.

And of course there is the natural progression that driven players will make over the years in their prime.

I just reject.the premise that Durant's play fell off during the playoffs. I also reject the premise that he needed better teammates to score efficiently. He is an iso player. He can abuse guys 1 on 1 on any team.

[insidious301]

Correction, it is part of the reason he shot better in the playoffs in GS.

It isn't just an issue of opposing defenses. It is also a question of the confidence he has in his teammates. If he lacks confidence in his teammates, as I believe he did after the harden trade, then he will be more inclined to take tough, contested shots.

And of course there is the natural progression that driven players will make over the years in their prime.

I just reject.the premise that Durant's play fell off during the playoffs. I also reject the premise that he needed better teammates to score efficiently. He is an iso player. He can abuse guys 1 on 1 on any team.

Fair enough. All of that just goes back to playing with better teammates though. More open shots. Things you cannot measure like "confidence" etc. Nobody claimed Durant was inefficient before playing in GS either. Only that he clearly saw an increase there. Durant has always been a great scorer.

[HoopsNY]

68 games out of 988 games played is a small sample size. But if you want to focus on the playoffs.....Durant led the league in playoff scoring 4 times while in OKC. For his career he ranks 4th all time in playoff ppg at 29.09


In 11/12 and 12/13 Durant had no drop in efficiency during the playoffs. After the Harden trade he was forced to take more shots in the playoffs (3 more shots per game than 12/13) and his efficiency went down a bit. Let's not pretend like he was dogging it.

Who else did opposing defenses have to worry about? They were happy to let Westbrook shoot all the jumpers he wanted.

After he was traded to GS his shot attempts went down and naturally his efficiency went back up.

I agreed with your previous response. But where the playoffs is concerned, Hakeem averaged 27 PPG until 1999. KD at 29 PPG is not a tremendous difference, especially when you consider the eras in which they both played.

This doesn't mean that Hakeem was the better scorer. He wasn't. But I'm not sure the disparity is as a great as you're making it seem.