Which years would prime LeBron be the BEST PLAYER in the 90s?

[insidious301]

Dump 2009-2018 LeBron into the 90s and presuppose the order doesn't matter. Which years from that 9 year span is he the best player? I believe 2012 and 2013 LeBron would be "the best" in 1990 and arguably 1993. 1994 and 1995 as well along with 1996-1998. Anyone think he would have a case for 1992 or 1993? And are the Hakeem years a given or were his playoff runs just that great?

[Carbine]

Isn't this another Jordan vs LeBron?

[insidious301]

Typo in there also. "Anyone think he would have a case for 1992 or 1993?" should be years 1991 & 1992.


Isn't this another Jordan vs LeBron?

No. There are many 90s topics of late so why not another one? Hakeem is clearly mentioned in the OP too. So, which years do you think LeBron would be the best?

[coastalmarker99]

[QUOTE=insidious301;14067472]Dump 2009-2018 LeBron into the 90s and presuppose the order doesn't matter. Which years from that 9 year span is he the best player? I believe 2012 and 2013 LeBron would be "the best" in 1990 and arguably 1993. 1994 and 1995 as well along with 1996-1998. Anyone think he would have a case for 1992 or 1993? And are the Hakeem years a given or were his playoff runs just that great?[/QUOTE

If you put Lebron in that era he would have dominated it so hard Jordan is in no way getting 6 rings if Lebron is on the rockets Jazz suns Lakers sonics Cavs or New york he maybe gets 2 rings for his career New york with Lebron and Ewing would have crushed the Bulls every year preventing them from getting to the finals.




But as for the question 1990 1992 1997 1998 1994 1995 and 1999

Jordan is the luckiest out of the top ten players of all time if pre injuries Sabonis comes over to Portland earlier then Portland more then likely gets 2 to 3 rings from 1990 to 1992 also along this train of thought If len never dies then he has a rival player that could have matched him in the east and stolen rings from him as well.

[Whoah10115]

Jordan is never not the best.

So when he isn't playing, then a peak LeBron would be.

[insidious301]

If you put Lebron in that era he would have dominated it so hard Jordan is in no way getting 6 rings if Lebron is on the rockets Jazz suns Lakers sonics Cavs or New york he maybe gets 2 rings for his career New york with Lebron and Ewing would have crushed the Bulls every year preventing them from getting to the finals.

But as for the question 1990 1992 1997 1998 1994 1995 and 1999

Jordan is the luckiest out of the top ten players of all time if pre injuries Sabonis comes over to Portland earlier then Portland more then likely gets 2 to 3 rings from 1990 to 1992 also along this train of thought If len never dies then he has a rival player that could have matched him in the east and stolen rings from him as well.

I can't speak on Jordan getting "demolished", because frankly, I strongly disagree. You do have a unique take however. You're a Wilt fan and as I read your post, it reminded me of a topic weeks ago. It was Russell vs Wilt and you had made a similar argument for Wilt that you have now for LeBron. Sans Arvydas Sabonis however how "lucky" was Jordan? We do agree on most of the years, including 1994 and 1995. Hakeem was so good then that its difficult to say LeBron was better, but 2012 and 2013 were the peak of his powers. Why do you think LeBron bests Jordan in 1992? Quite a few believe that was Jordan at his best.

[LegendaryBaller]

90 - Jordan
91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan
93 - Jordan
94 - Hakeem
95 - Hakeem
96 - Jordan
97 - Jordan
98 - Jordan
99 - Shaq

So, none. And in various seasons he might not be second, third or maybe even forth what with Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, D-Robinson, and Shaq in the thick of the mix too. Stacked era. Especially the early to mid 90s.

[insidious301]

You don't think any version of LeBron from that span was better than 1998 Jordan? Pretty wild take. Those other players were great but would they really have "various seasons" over LeBron? I can only think of 1 for David Robinson and Charles Barkley. You could make a case for Magic in 1990 and 1991 however I wouldn't take him over LeBron in 2012/2013/2016/2018

[NBAGOAT]

You don't think any version of LeBron from that span was better than 1998 Jordan? Pretty wild take. Those other players were great but would they really have "various seasons" over LeBron? I can only think of 1 for David Robinson and Charles Barkley. You could make a case for Magic in 1990 and 1991 but I wouldn't take him over LeBron in 2012/2013/2016/2018

yea apologies to 99 shaq but a few versions of lebron at least are above him. even if you're much higher on jordan than lebron, 98 jordan often gets compared to perimeter peaks from kobe, wade, tmac.

[Manny98]

90 - Magic
91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan
93 - Lebron
94 - Lebron
95 - Lebron
96 - Jordan
97 - Lebron
98 - Lebron
99 - Malone

[Manny98]

90 - Jordan
91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan
93 - Jordan
94 - Hakeem
95 - Hakeem
96 - Jordan
97 - Jordan
98 - Jordan
99 - Shaq

So, none. And in various seasons he might not be second, third or maybe even forth what with Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, D-Robinson, and Shaq in the thick of the mix too. Stacked era. Especially the early to mid 90s.
:facepalm

[Sulico]

90-99

There is 0 question about that. Lebron would be by very VERY far best player in the 90s.

People forget that we as far removed from the 90's as 80's were removed from 50's.
Does anyone want to ask if Larry Bird or Magic would be best players in the 50's or 60's?

Lebron is in the race to be Greatest Player, not Best Player. He's by far better than anything that came before him.

Anyone who thinks Lebron is not as GREAT as Jordan have a valid point. Anyone who thinks Lebron is not MUCH MUCH BETTER than Jordan is delusional.

[warriorfan]

90-99

There is 0 question about that. Lebron would be by very VERY far best player in the 90s.

People forget that we as far removed from the 90's as 80's were removed from 50's.
Does anyone want to ask if Larry Bird or Magic would be best players in the 50's or 60's?

Lebron is in the race to be Greatest Player, not Best Player. He's by far better than anything that came before him.

Anyone who thinks Lebron is not as GREAT as Jordan have a valid point. Anyone who thinks Lebron is not MUCH MUCH BETTER than Jordan is delusional.

Yes. Lebron is much better at colluding and choking.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

His best chance would be 99

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

90 - Magic
91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan
93 - Lebron
94 - Lebron
95 - Lebron
96 - Jordan
97 - Lebron
98 - Lebron
99 - Malone
Any particular reason why you have Jordan for 91,92,96 instead of your King?

[warriorfan]

Any particular reason why you have Jordan for 91,92,96 instead of your King?

To feign some sort of objectiveness.

[Sulico]

Yes. Lebron is much better at colluding and choking.

At basketball too.

Crazy people say Lebron is not better than Jordan, Jordan is not better than KAJ, KAJ is not beter than Wilt etc.

But then you watch tapes from 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's and 00's and it becomes so obvious how much payers progress every decade.

Only guys who never watched games from other decades can be ignorant enough to say that Jordan, KAJ, WILT or someone else is actually better than Lebron at basketball.
Greater, yes, my personal GOAT is Bill Russell, but I'm not dumb enough to say he's better player than Lebron.

[warriorfan]

At basketball too.

Crazy people say Lebron is not better than Jordan, Jordan is not better than KAJ, KAJ is not beter than Wilt etc.

But then you watch tapes from 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's and 00's and it becomes so obvious how much payers progress every decade.

Only guys who never watched games from other decades can be ignorant enough to say that Jordan, KAJ, WILT or someone else is actually better than Lebron at basketball.
Greater, yes, my personal GOAT is Bill Russell, but I'm not dumb enough to say he's better player than Lebron.

That’s why Jordan is different. Most of the time you are right, you see stuff from the 60’s and 70’s and say to yourself “I don’t think that would fly in this era”. When you watch prime Jordan clips that are now from 30 years ago...they still definitely stand the test of time and you could tell he would be doing whatever he wanted in the league today.

[LAL]

He wouldn't be the best because you need to drop prime kobe, tmac, kawhi, KD, steph, ai, nowitzki, duncan, giannis etc in the 90's too if you want to play that game. MJ was just way ahead of his time, i think lebron would've just been a athletic power forward with his ordinary handles and zero moves, mostly finishing fast breaks in the 90's. Nobody would've came up with a Bron system so he can handle the ball all game. That's why i have so much respect for larry bird, not only does he truly pass the eye test, basically same numbers as lebron without the hijacking and dribbling.

[Manny98]

Any particular reason why you have Jordan for 91,92,96 instead of your King?
Because those versions of Jordan were better than LeBron

[Sulico]

That’s why Jordan is different. Most of the time you are right, you see stuff from the 60’s and 70’s and say to yourself “I don’t think that would fly in this era”. When you watch prime Jordan clips that are now from 30 years ago...they still definitely stand the test of time and you could tell he would be doing whatever he wanted in the league today.

No he's not. First of all, don't look at the clips. Watch the games. Youtube channel of NBA posted bunch of 90's games like month ago, I recommend you to watch them.

Jordan was amazing player for his time, but that was standing league. They were literally just standing there 80% of the time. There was no perimeter defense whatsoever. The stiffs they had at PF and C positions are cringeworthy and nobody could hit an open 3pt shot.

You play who's in front of you, and Jordan dominated those guys allright, but that was not the league we know today.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Because those versions of Jordan were better than LeBron
Better in what ways?

[warriorfan]

No he's not. First of all, don't look at the clips. Watch the games. Youtube channel of NBA posted bunch of 90's games like month ago, I recommend you to watch them.

Jordan was amazing player for his time, but that was standing league. They were literally just standing there 80% of the time. There was no perimeter defense whatsoever. The stiffs they had at PF and C positions are cringeworthy and nobody could hit an open 3pt shot.

You play who's in front of you, and Jordan dominated those guys allright, but that was not the league we know today.

https://media.tenor.com/images/3c13721c3a6196e98ccdcad79e17b89b/tenor.gif

[LAL]

No he's not. First of all, don't look at the clips. Watch the games. Youtube channel of NBA posted bunch of 90's games like month ago, I recommend you to watch them.

Jordan was amazing player for his time, but that was standing league. They were literally just standing there 80% of the time. There was no perimeter defense whatsoever. The stiffs they had at PF and C positions are cringeworthy and nobody could hit an open 3pt shot.

You play who's in front of you, and Jordan dominated those guys allright, but that was not the league we know today.

He wouldn't be the best because you need to drop prime kobe, tmac, kawhi, KD, steph, ai, nowitzki, duncan, giannis etc in the 90's too if you want to play that game. MJ was just way ahead of his time, did what he was supossed to do, dominate the **** out whatever that generation had to offer. I think lebron would've just been a athletic power forward with his ordinary handles and zero moves, mostly finishing fast breaks in the 90's. Nobody would've came up with a Bron system so he can handle the ball all game. That's why i have so much respect for larry bird, not only does he truly pass the eye test, basically same numbers as lebron without the hijacking and dribbling.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If you get to choose Bron's peak over and over, repeatedly, there aren't many years he wouldn't be the best.

1990 - Mike
1991 - Mike
1992 - Mike
1993 - Mike
1994 - Hakeem/Bron
1995 - Hakeem/Bron
1996 - Bron
1997 - Bron
1998 - Bron/Shaq
1999 - Bron

1996 could be arguable although I have always maintained that early 90s MJ>Bron. Hakeem's peak is up there as well.

[Airupthere]

Look at the skillset. Jordan should look mechanical compared to Lebron if we expect huge leaps in skills every passing decade. Lebron is bigger and freakishly athletic for his size that is why he puts up better numbers. But skillwise, the things that Jordan could do as soon as he entered the league, it took Lebron years to learn, and until now has probably never even acquired all of them.

[r0drig0lac]

none

[ELITEpower23]

No zone defense and weak perimeter defensive players?

All 90-99 (10 for 10)

Ja Morant would be a top 10 perimeter player too.
Which years would he not you mean? :lol

[ELITEpower23]

No he's not. First of all, don't look at the clips. Watch the games. Youtube channel of NBA posted bunch of 90's games like month ago, I recommend you to watch them.

Jordan was amazing player for his time, but that was standing league. They were literally just standing there 80% of the time. There was no perimeter defense whatsoever. The stiffs they had at PF and C positions are cringeworthy and nobody could hit an open 3pt shot.

You play who's in front of you, and Jordan dominated those guys allright, but that was not the league we know today.

Bingo

Kids need to let go of 90s nostalgia and be honest

[imdaman99]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3o6wrDUeLIQZFJVEC4/giphy.gif

:lol ok in actuality, prob 97-99

[ELITEpower23]

Jordan? I think his best case is 1991

1 for 9

(91) 1 in 9

[NBAGOAT]

95-98. Maybe 93,94. Likely no but not unreasonable case for 92. No for 90-91.

[insidious301]

If you get to choose Bron's peak over and over, repeatedly, there aren't many years he wouldn't be the best.

1990 - Mike
1991 - Mike
1992 - Mike
1993 - Mike
1994 - Hakeem/Bron
1995 - Hakeem/Bron
1996 - Bron
1997 - Bron
1998 - Bron/Shaq
1999 - Bron

1996 could be arguable although I have always maintained that early 90s MJ>Bron. Hakeem's peak is up there as well.

I agree with most of the years. Good post kuniva. I don't see the debate for O'neal in 98 however. I thought his best came in 2000-2002 and would be more comparable to the best of LeBron.


95-98. Maybe 93,94. Likely no but not unreasonable case for 92. No for 90-91.

Good post NBAGOAT. Not too sold on Hakeem either? His peak might be GOAT-like however LeBron's impact all-around was unlimited by comparison. LeBron isn't in his prime now, but the fact he leads the league in assists is remarkable. The playmaking ability is an added weapon not too many bigmen have.

[NBAGOAT]

I agree with most of the years. Good post kuniva. I don't see the debate for O'neal in 98 however. I thought his best came in 2000-2002 and would be more comparable to the best of LeBron.



Good post NBAGOAT. Not too sold on Hakeem either? His peak might be GOAT-like however LeBron's impact all-around was unlimited by comparison. LeBron isn't in his prime now, but the fact he leads the league in assists is remarkable. The playmaking ability is an added weapon not too many bigmen have.

I think I’m not too harsh on Hakeem but also think he may be a bit overvalued in 95. It’s all time great scoring run and he dumpsterd Robinson but lot of evidence points to his defense declining that year. Peak is 94 most likely so that’s the year that can beat out bron. I don’t want to definitively say he had a better cast in 95 but drexler was helpful..

Don’t have too much of a problem arguing hakeems peak over bron but see it more in the top 5 behind mj, shaq, bron

[Phoenix]

Good post NBAGOAT. Not too sold on Hakeem either? His peak might be GOAT-like however LeBron's impact all-around was unlimited by comparison. LeBron isn't in his prime now, but the fact he leads the league in assists is remarkable. The playmaking ability is an added weapon not too many bigmen have.

Unless Lebron winds up on a team in 94 and 95 that beats the Rockets, the distinction of who's 'better' between him and Hakeem those years isn't terribly important. Ditto for whether Lebron ends up in position to deny some of those Bulls squads rings. He's going to stand out in any era as a dominant force but not necessarily as a champion relative to the other greats of the decade.

[NBAGOAT]

Unless Lebron winds up on a team in 94 and 95 that beats the Rockets, the distinction of who's 'better' between him and Hakeem those years isn't terribly important. Ditto for whether Lebron ends up in position to deny some of those Bulls squads rings. He's going to stand out in any era as a dominant force but not necessarily as a champion relative to the other greats of the decade.



Yea if you want to actually compare lebron to Jordan or Hakeem etc it’s better to go from best year to worst year for each.

[Roundball_Rock]

Assuming 2009 LeBron goes to 1990 ( 10' LeBron in 91', 11' in 92', etc.):

1990: Jordan
1991: Jordan
1992: Jordan
1993: Jordan
1994: LeBron
1995: LeBron
1996: Jordan
1997: Jordan
1998: LeBron
1999: Shaq

He would be #2 in each of these years where he isn't #1, although Magic would give him a run in 90' and 91'.

Some people diminish 1996-1998 Jordan but 1996-1998 Jordan was basically 2008-2010 Kobe with more efficiency.

[insidious301]

Yea if you want to actually compare lebron to Jordan or Hakeem etc it’s better to go from best year to worst year for each.

You guys lost me here. What are you suggesting? FWIW I am not basing anything on team accomplishment. Just who is better which can include individual playoff performance.


Assuming 2009 LeBron goes to 1990 ( 10' LeBron in 91', 11' in 92', etc.):

1990: Jordan
1991: Jordan
1992: Jordan
1993: Jordan
1994: LeBron
1995: LeBron
1996: Jordan
1997: Jordan
1998: LeBron
1999: Shaq

He would be #2 in each of these years where he isn't #1, although Magic would give him a run in 90' and 91'.

Some people diminish 1996-1998 Jordan but 1996-1998 Jordan was basically 2008-2010 Kobe with more efficiency.

Good post Roundball. You don't assume "09 LeBron = '90 Jordan" either because this is about prime LeBron generally speaking. Any years from his prime up against the best players from the 90s. Hakeem and Jordan sticking out most obviously. Maybe I should have phrased my original post better.

[NBAGOAT]

You guys lost me here. What are you suggesting? FWIW I am not basing anything on team accomplishment..

Like say just ordering Jordan years top being 91 worst being 03 and for Hakeem best being 94 worst being 02(last few worst years really aren’t relevant) and just doing a direct comparison year vs year.

It’s more exact than this which is basically asking how many years of Jordan and Hakeem would you take over peak lebron. How Jordan’s 5th best season compares to Hakeems 5th best season is not insignificant when.those seasons are likely mvp level seasons too

[insidious301]

So basically a peak showdown between Hakeem-LeBron-Jordan(& maybe Shaq). Yeah I see what you mean now. Good point. I went this route though because there are people who disagree on years. For example there are some who believe 96-97 Jordan was still near or at peak level. Like Roundball_Rock.

[Marchesk]

The stiffs they had at PF and C positions are cringeworthy

Like Hakeem, DRob, K. Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Ewing, Kemp, Mourning, L. Johnson, Mutombo?

[Marchesk]

There was no perimeter defense whatsoever.

Outside the Bulls, Knicks, Sonics, Pistons, Pacers, Jazz? Is that like the lack of rim protection and open lanes today? What do you think Jordan would do to those?

BTW, Westbrook won an MVP in today's league.

[Marchesk]

And nobody could hit an open 3pt shot.

Like Reggie Miller, Mark Price, Dale Ellis, Dell Curry, Steve Kerr, Dennis Scott, Glenn Rice?

The game wasn't centered around five guys standing around three point line waiting to chuck yet another contested three while looking for an open lane to the basket or kick out three. There was a lot of post play and a midrange game.

[Marchesk]

People forget that we as far removed from the 90's as 80's were removed from 50's.
Does anyone want to ask if Larry Bird or Magic would be best players in the 50's or 60's?

They wouldn't have been the best in the 60s because of Wilt and Bill Russell. They would have been somewhere around prime Baylor, Oscar and West. But of course it all depends on the team and how that effects championships, but Bird and Magic aren't putting up the numbers Wilt did.

[insidious301]

Marchesk is bullying that troll. Haha. I would just ignore him dude. Your knowledge on the games history is obv superior.

[Marchesk]

Marchesk is bullying that troll. Haha. I would just ignore him dude. Your knowledge on the games history is obv superior.

Probably is trolling, but I don't know. Some of the younger fans do actually believe players today are much better, which means they think Lebron >>> Jordan, because they watched some YT videos of the 90s, and the three point shooting was lacking.

[warriorfan]

Marchesk is bullying that troll. Haha. I would just ignore him dude. Your knowledge on the games history is obv superior.

Brutal. I just laughed it off but he went in. :applause:

[warriorfan]

Probably is trolling, but I don't know. Some of the younger fans do actually believe players today are much better, which means they think Lebron >>> Jordan, because they watched some YT videos of the 90s, and the three point shooting was lacking.

Set em straight. :applause:

[Whoah10115]

If you get to choose Bron's peak over and over, repeatedly, there aren't many years he wouldn't be the best.

1990 - Mike
1991 - Mike
1992 - Mike
1993 - Mike
1994 - Hakeem/Bron
1995 - Hakeem/Bron
1996 - Bron
1997 - Bron
1998 - Bron/Shaq
1999 - Bron

1996 could be arguable although I have always maintained that early 90s MJ>Bron. Hakeem's peak is up there as well.

He literally has nothing resembling a comparison to 2nd 3peat Jordan. There are arguments to be made that Jordan was a better overall player then than in first run. Better team defender, tho not as good individually, noticeably better shooter and post player, which negatively impacted his numbers but incorporated others better, despite the fact that their PG and PF positions were severely diminished. Rodman because of intelligence and some good passing offers something, but Armstrong was a better offensive PG than Harper, by a lot, and Rodman couldn't really score or shoot much. They played slower and the league was slower.

And Jordan was a better closer than ever. His mentality was unreal, even for him, and no matter how hard you rooted, no matter how the other team may have looked better, the Bulls winning was never really in question.

Also, I don't understand Shaq. David Robinson was better, especially given how many games Shaq missed. Those Lakers teams were loaded. No way Shaq was #1. And then there was Karl Malone, who was almost a lot better.

If it came down to the two, Malone was taking me farther. The sweep should have established that.

LeBron could only be the answer in 99 and 94 and 95. However, the latter two, Hakeem is at least in the area. Had Barkley not gotten hurt then him, also.

[NBAGOAT]

He literally has nothing resembling a comparison to 2nd 3peat Jordan. There are arguments to be made that Jordan was a better overall player then than in first run. Better team defender, tho not as good individually, noticeably better shooter and post player, which negatively impacted his numbers but incorporated others better, despite the fact that their PG and PF positions were severely diminished. Rodman because of intelligence and some good passing offers something, but Armstrong was a better offensive PG than Harper, by a lot, and Rodman couldn't really score or shoot much. They played slower and the league was slower.

And Jordan was a better closer than ever. His mentality was unreal, even for him, and no matter how hard you rooted, no matter how the other team may have looked better, the Bulls winning was never really in question.

Also, I don't understand Shaq. David Robinson was better, especially given how many games Shaq missed. Those Lakers teams were loaded. No way Shaq was #1. And then there was Karl Malone, who was almost a lot better.

If it came down to the two, Malone was taking me farther. The sweep should have established that.

LeBron could only be the answer in 99 and 94 and 95. However, the latter two, Hakeem is at least in the area. Had Barkley not gotten hurt then him, also.

The 2nd 3pear team had a better bench however mainly off Kukoc. Ik he didn’t do much in the playoffs but he’s better than just a role player. 13/4 doesn’t pop but it’s pretty productive in limited minutes.

The other counter is late 90s is a little weaker than the early 90s due to expansion and maybe roster construction

[Whoah10115]

The 2nd 3pear team had a better bench however mainly off Kukoc. Ik he didn’t do much in the playoffs but he’s better than just a role player. 13/4 doesn’t pop but it’s pretty productive in limited minutes.

That much is true. They had one exceptional 6th man and real pros down to the bottom. Utah was like that too.

Also, those numbers stood out more then. Not to mention that people were willing to evaluate beyond a statsheet.

[NBAGOAT]

That much is true. They had one exceptional 6th man and real pros down to the bottom. Utah was like that too.

Also, those numbers stood out more then. Not to mention that people were willing to evaluate beyond a statsheet.

Yea for sure. Kukoc is one of those guys better than his numbers. Tbf those guys exist today too.

[Hey Yo]

Depends on if MJ still quits the league in 94 to rest-up. If not, then James definitely wins more titles after 1993 cause MJ was physically and mentally spent at that point.

[Phoenix]

You guys lost me here. What are you suggesting? FWIW I am not basing anything on team accomplishment. Just who is better which can include individual playoff performance.



That's the pickle. At least as far back as I've watched, the clear cut best player of a decade or across a spectrum of several seasons usually coincided with that player leading the predominant team of the era. The lines were somewhat blurred. Magic and Bird are considered the two best players of the 80s and their teams were the dominant teams for the most part. Jordan was considered the player of the 90s and the Bulls the team of the 90s. The 00s are less clear cut but it's generally regarded that Shaq, Duncan and Kobe being responsible for the lions share of championships were the 3 best players of that decade even though Lebron started his peak at the end.

Which takes us to the 10s. Its accepted that Lebron is the best player generally of the decade but his teams certainly weren't the defining one. I think most will remember the Warriors in that regard. Which makes Lebron's proposition as 'best player' a different argument than we are used to, based chiefly on stats, longevity, accumulated totals and finals appearances, and less about winning, at least at a level that differentiates that part of the equation in the way MJ, Magic, and Bird separated themselves in their time. Of course those aforementioned factors play into how we define the other GOAT players, to be clear.

Which brings me to my earlier point. Drop 09 Lebron into 1990, it's fair to assume hes at worst a top 3 player every year. But unless he's on a team that's coupling being dominant (championship wise) with individual dominance, what conversation are we having ultimately? MJ and Hakeem were the best two players of the 90s, and every year they were considered the best coincided with their team winning the title. So we drop 13 Lebron in,say, 1993. He has his usual statistically dominant season. But unless hes stopping the Bulls from winning that year, what bones are we trying to pick out here trying to determine if hes 'better' than MJ in isolation?

[Whoah10115]

That's the pickle. At least as far back as I've watched, the clear cut best player of a decade or across a spectrum of several seasons usually coincided with that player leading the predominant team of the era. The lines were somewhat blurred. Magic and Bird are considered the two best players of the 80s and their teams were the dominant teams for the most part. Jordan was considered the player of the 90s and the Bulls the team of the 90s. The 00s are less clear cut but it's generally regarded that Shaq, Duncan and Kobe being responsible for the lions share of championships were the 3 best players of that decade even though Lebron started his peak at the end.

Which takes us to the 10s. Its accepted that Lebron is the best player generally of the decade but his teams certainly weren't the defining one. I think most will remember the Warriors in that regard. Which makes Lebron's proposition as 'best player' a different argument than we are used to, based chiefly on stats, longevity, accumulated totals and finals appearances, and less about winning, at least at a level that differentiates that part of the equation in the way MJ, Magic, and Bird separated themselves in their time. Of course those aforementioned factors play into how we define the other GOAT players, to be clear.

Which brings me to my earlier point. Drop 09 Lebron into 1990, it's fair to assume hes at worst a top 3 player every year. But unless he's on a team that's coupling being dominant (championship wise) with individual dominance, what conversation are we having ultimately? MJ and Hakeem were the best two players of the 90s, and every year they were considered the best coincided with their team winning the title. So we drop 13 Lebron in,say, 1993. He has his usual statistically dominant season. But unless hes stopping the Bulls from winning that year, what bones are we trying to pick out here trying to determine if hes 'better' than MJ in isolation?

I don't think it's safe to assume, at all.

Interesting thing about this era of athletes. If you drop them into other eras they have to contend with push back every season. Doesn't happen now.

[insidious301]

That's the pickle. At least as far back as I've watched, the clear cut best player of a decade or across a spectrum of several seasons usually coincided with that player leading the predominant team of the era. The lines were somewhat blurred. Magic and Bird are considered the two best players of the 80s and their teams were the dominant teams for the most part. Jordan was considered the player of the 90s and the Bulls the team of the 90s. The 00s are less clear cut but it's generally regarded that Shaq, Duncan and Kobe being responsible for the lions share of championships were the 3 best players of that decade even though Lebron started his peak at the end.

Which takes us to the 10s. Its accepted that Lebron is the best player generally of the decade but his teams certainly weren't the defining one. I think most will remember the Warriors in that regard. Which makes Lebron's proposition as 'best player' a different argument than we are used to, based chiefly on stats, longevity, accumulated totals and finals appearances, and less about winning, at least at a level that differentiates that part of the equation in the way MJ, Magic, and Bird separated themselves in their time. Of course those aforementioned factors play into how we define the other GOAT players, to be clear.

Which brings me to my earlier point. Drop 09 Lebron into 1990, it's fair to assume hes at worst a top 3 player every year. But unless he's on a team that's coupling being dominant (championship wise) with individual dominance, what conversation are we having ultimately? MJ and Hakeem were the best two players of the 90s, and every year they were considered the best coincided with their team winning the title. So we drop 13 Lebron in,say, 1993. He has his usual statistically dominant season. But unless hes stopping the Bulls from winning that year, what bones are we trying to pick out here trying to determine if hes 'better' than MJ in isolation?

Good post. I had cleared this up with NBAGOAT on the last page. Peak vs Peak is a great idea and something I'd normally agree with. Problem is there are many years people don't agree with. There are 2 posters in this thread who think 96 and 97 Jordan was still at peak level. Don't agree at all but that's part of the reason I extended it to a decade. Of course, also genuinely wanting to know where prime LeBron stacks up prime vs prime against other top 10s. Like Hakeem, Shaq and Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good post Roundball. You don't assume "09 LeBron = '90 Jordan" either because this is about prime LeBron generally speaking. Any years from his prime up against the best players from the 90s.

It is hard to do prime versus prime on a yearly basis since both players changed over time so I did it assuming 09' LeBron starts in 90'.

I consider MJ's absolute peak 1991-1993. He was close in 89', 90' and 96'. The thing about people like MJ, KAJ, LeBron is they decline from such a high level that a declining MJ was still the consensus best player in 98'.

Stats don't tell us much since everyone's stats went down as the 90's progressed as the pace slowed and defenses improved, trends that continued until the 05' rules changes.

[tpols]

Too many great players back then for him to ever be #1. Prime MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, etc. Too much talent for him to get a top spot.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If you get to choose Bron's peak over and over, repeatedly, there aren't many years he wouldn't be the best.

1990 - Mike
1991 - Mike
1992 - Mike
1993 - Mike
1994 - Hakeem/Bron
1995 - Hakeem/Bron
1996 - Bron
1997 - Bron
1998 - Bron/Shaq
1999 - Bron

1996 could be arguable although I have always maintained that early 90s MJ>Bron. Hakeem's peak is up there as well.

:kobe:

Did you recently buy a pair of LeBrons or something? I never would've saw you say that ever since I started posting here in 2005.

The only legit cases LeBron would have are for 1998 and 1999, honestly. Anything more? And nah.

Not enough production leading to victory to have him over prime / peak Barkley, prime / peak Hakeem, tail end prime Magic, prime / peak David Robinson, starting prime Shaq.

And def not prime / peak Jordan from 1990 - 1993. Which is the greatest basketball player to ever walk the face of the planet, in a total landslide.

I'm not even mentioning prime / peak Karl Malone, even though an argument could be made. And even then 1996 and 1997 Jordan could still be considered better than the majority of those LeBron James seasons. 1990 - 1996 was utterly stacked with high end HOF and MVP caliber talent season to season.

[Manny98]

Assuming 2009 LeBron goes to 1990 ( 10' LeBron in 91', 11' in 92', etc.):

1990: Jordan
1991: Jordan
1992: Jordan
1993: Jordan
1994: LeBron
1995: LeBron
1996: Jordan
1997: Jordan
1998: LeBron
1999: Shaq

He would be #2 in each of these years where he isn't #1, although Magic would give him a run in 90' and 91'.

Some people diminish 1996-1998 Jordan but 1996-1998 Jordan was basically 2008-2010 Kobe with more efficiency.

How is 93 Jordan better than Lebron in 2012, that was literally LeBrons best season

[Roundball_Rock]

How is 93 Jordan better than Lebron in 2012, that was literally LeBrons best season

Peak MJ>peak LeBron. It's closer than MJ stans would like to admit but MJ has a clear edge IMO.

[72-10]

I'm not sure there's a year where he's top three.

[Lebron23]

If you get to choose Bron's peak over and over, repeatedly, there aren't many years he wouldn't be the best.

1990 - Mike
1991 - Mike
1992 - Mike
1993 - Mike
1994 - Hakeem/Bron
1995 - Hakeem/Bron
1996 - Bron
1997 - Bron
1998 - Bron/Shaq
1999 - Bron

1996 could be arguable although I have always maintained that early 90s MJ>Bron. Hakeem's peak is up there as well.

Might be the best posts in this thread.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

How is 93 Jordan better than Lebron in 2012, that was literally LeBrons best season
93 Jordan is pretty much the same as 91-92 Jordan just with a slight drop in athleticism.

[TheCorporation]

I'm not sure there's a year where he's top three.

Call me crazy but something tells me he can overcome a 10.7 point per game number 2 option.

MJ's greatest ring :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

Peak MJ>peak LeBron. It's closer than MJ stans would like to admit but MJ has a clear edge IMO.
Clear edge doesn’t equate to close. There is a distinct advantage. Better offensive and defensive player. Superior competitor and winner. Mentally and physically tougher. Not a weak minded, BETA colluding bitch either. I mean the guy literally molded his next best player, Pippen, in his own image. Just a vastly superior leader.

[TheCorporation]

Clear edge doesn’t equate to close. There is a distinct advantage. Better offensive and defensive player. Superior competitor and winner. Mentally and physically tougher. Not a weak minded, BETA colluding bitch either. I mean the guy literally molded his next best player, Pippen, in his own image. Just a vastly superior leader.

LeBron is by far the better defensive player MJ never anchored a defense like LBJ. There's a reason why Lebron always had a better defensive rating for every single year...it's not magic :lol

As for scoring? Peep the avy

•6911 (FIRST)

[Real14]

O yearz:lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He literally has nothing resembling a comparison to 2nd 3peat Jordan. There are arguments to be made that Jordan was a better overall player then than in first run. Better team defender, tho not as good individually, noticeably better shooter and post player, which negatively impacted his numbers but incorporated others better, despite the fact that their PG and PF positions were severely diminished.
And Jordan was a better closer than ever. His mentality was unreal, even for him, and no matter how hard you rooted, no matter how the other team may have looked better, the Bulls winning was never really in question.
Also, I don't understand Shaq. David Robinson was better, especially given how many games Shaq missed. Those Lakers teams were loaded. No way Shaq was #1. And then there was Karl Malone, who was almost a lot better.
If it came down to the two, Malone was taking me farther. The sweep should have established that.

Who doesn’t? Are you talking about Bron or Jordan. If Jordan then there is no 'REAL' argument for second 3-peat version. Who was past his peak, athletically, and more dependent on jump shots. From ‘90-93, Mike was @ the apex of both skill and athletic ability.

More than anything it showed during the playoffs.

‘96-98 Jordan wasn’t dropping 40 a game on good efficiency during the finals like he did in ‘93. That was mostly on drives too with a little blend of midrange. Or even a finals averaging 30 on 50%, while dishing out 11 assists and playing high impact defense. Second 3-peat Jordan simply didn’t have THAT energy. And how could he? Guy was in his mid 30s contemplating another retirement.

He was always a "killer in crunchtime" and his competitive drive was there 24/7. Since day 1. Only difference being, his raw and advanced stats were all better during the first 3-peat. While visibly being more active.

By the way, "Robinson > Shaq" in 1998? Nothing points to that. Shaq’s numbers were better across the board and led a deeper playoff run. The difference between Malone and Shaq were teammates. Literally all of the Laker starters pooped themselves in that series. Ever heard of 1-2-3 Cancun!!!? Look it up.


Did you recently buy a pair of LeBrons or something? I never would've saw you say that ever since I started posting here in 2005.
The only legit cases LeBron would have are for 1998 and 1999, honestly. Anything more? And nah.
Not enough production leading to victory to have him over prime / peak Barkley, prime / peak Hakeem, tail end prime Magic, prime / peak David Robinson, starting prime Shaq.

Hey "Pippin" quit poutin :oldlol:

I mean, we’re really acting like Miami Bron doesn’t have a case? I’ve seen dudes argue '06-'10 Kobe over ‘96-98 Jordan. Get real. Bron’s numbers BOTH raw and advanced were closer to first 3-peat Jordan than the second one. And at the time, Bron was also an elite defender. Check the receipts.

Prime Lebron’s BPM and PER are both Top 10 all time. Early 90’s Jordan are also Top 10. So if we’re going to call a spade a spade, that version of Bron is right there with late 90s Jordan. At least.

And Karl Malone? David Robinson? Yeah right :oldlol:

Like I mentioned before, if this ‘simulation’ is me picking '12 or '13 Bron repeatedly? No wear and tear and all things equal? I’m not taking any player over him except early 90s Jordan. Then again, I have Bron Top 3-5 all time.

[tpols]

You know damn well if kuniva had to place a money bet on prime MJ vs LBJ with exactly even help, he'd be sheepishly shying away from it lmao. Might as well toss your cash in the fire place.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I agree with most of the years. Good post kuniva. I don't see the debate for O'neal in 98 however. I thought his best came in 2000-2002 and would be more comparable to the best of LeBron.

Thanks. With regards to Shaq, check my post before this one. Not his fault he played with playoff chokers.


Might be the best posts in this thread.

:cheers:


You know damn well if kuniva had to place a money bet on prime MJ vs LBJ with exactly even help, he'd be sheepishly shying away from it lmao. Might as well toss your cash in the fire place.

Nah I don't flip flop and change opinions like you do :lol It would depend on the years you're talking about.

Peak MJ > Peak Bron, for sure.

[FromDowntown]

You know damn well if kuniva had to place a money bet on prime MJ vs LBJ with exactly even help, he'd be sheepishly shying away from it lmao. Might as well toss your cash in the fire place.

So you're taking 96, 97, 98 MJ over 12, 13 LBJ? GTFO :lol

[FireDavidKahn]

Isn't this another Jordan vs LeBron?

Yep.

[tpols]

So you're taking 96, 97, 98 MJ over 12, 13 LBJ? GTFO :lol

2013 Lebron got sagged off of and embarrassed by a geriatric spurs squad.

MJ offensively, and Pippen especially defensively would've whacked him so bad your head would spin.

:roll:

Think Dirk/Marion multiplied 1000 fold.

[FromDowntown]

2013 Lebron got sagged off of and embarrassed by a geriatric spurs squad.

MJ offensively, and Pippen especially defensively would've whacked him so bad your head would spin.

:roll:

Think Dirk/Marion multiplied 1000 fold.

You're a certified retard :lol

2012 and 2013 LeBron might be the peak Apex player in NBA history.

Back to back

118 ORtg, 97 DRtg
125 ORtg, 101 DRtg
2 FMVP
Gold Medal

Avg:
122 ORtg, 99 DRtg

Find me a better 2 year run.

LeBron has the greatest 1 year run (2016)
LeBron has the greatest 2 year run (2012, 2013)
LeBron has the greatest 5 year run (2012-2016)
LeBron has the greatest career run (6,911)

Wake up :lol

[insidious301]

Thanks. With regards to Shaq, check my post before this one. Not his fault he played with playoff chokers.

Okay I get what you're saying now. Shaq did have great numbers and I do remember NVE/Jones/Fisher throwing up bricks. Utah cleaned their clock.

[Roundball_Rock]

Okay I get what you're saying now. Shaq did have great numbers and I do remember NVE/Jones/Fisher throwing up bricks. Utah cleaned their clock.

NVE shot 24%. :lol

[DoctorP]

maybe 1999

he would be a karl malone / detlef shrempf hybrid

[SamuraiSWISH]

You know damn well if kuniva had to place a money bet on prime MJ vs LBJ with exactly even help, he'd be sheepishly shying away from it lmao. Might as well toss your cash in the fire place.

Seriously. He seems to be flip-flopping.

Prime 2008 - 2010 Kobe, who is like 90% coverband Jordan ... is at best a cvnt hair away from being as good as second three peat 1996 - 1998 Jordan.

Prime LeBron 2011 - 2017 needed to stack the deck with all that help (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love) and still couldn’t win consistently even in his prime. 3 for 7 in that time frame.

Yet he is supposed to trump 96 and 97 Jordan? A guy who spearheaded arguably and probably the best basketball team ever? With just ONE other all star by his side? :oldlol:

I see a case for LeBron over 35 year old Jordan in 1998 and over Shaq in 1999. But anything else? And you’re out of your damn mind.

Kuntiva has been on a LeBron sucking off tangent.

LeBron was only a quality defender in 2011, 2012 and 2013. 3 years out of a 17 year career. Only when he was playing alongside two other great defenders and perennial all stars.

And at no point was ever the defender Jordan OR Hakeem was ... I don’t care what team defensive stats or ratings that are manufactured by stat nerds want to articulate. I watched the games.

[Roundball_Rock]

If you are going by stats, Miami LeBron>96'-98' Jordan (not surprising given their respective ages). Let's check some of MJ stans' favorite stats.

TS %: LeBron 62%, Jordan 56%
Per 100: LeBron 37/11/9, Jordan 41/9/6

tpols professes to love shooting stats so let's compare those too for 96'-98' MJ and Miami LeBron. "100" is league average.

League-adjusted eFG %: Jordan 105, 105, 99; LeBron 109, 114, 121, 122
League-adjusted TS %: 107, 106, 102; LeBron 110, 115, 120, 120

What is odd is MJ stans hype Hill for the 90's (21/8/7). LeBron is a souped up Hill who is better than Hill almost across the board. Better scorer, better playmaker, better defender, better shooter. The only area Hill has the edge is rebounding.

[insidious301]

These Jordan stans don't want to give LeBron any credit man. Roundball and Kuniva aren't even LeBron fans but at least they're objective. Both have peak Jordan over LeBron so what is the problem exactly?

[kawhileonard2]

Well Statistically in the season Lebron isn't the best since like 2013 but somehow was considered the best by many a lot of seasons even when he wasn't winning titles. Why wouldn't Jordan be considered the best if he is winning titles? He was also losing series 4-0, 4-1 with multiple stars on his team.

[Roundball_Rock]

These Jordan stans don't want to give LeBron any credit man. Roundball and Kuniva aren't even LeBron fans but at least they're objective. Both have peak Jordan over LeBron so what is the problem exactly?

:confusedshrug:


Why wouldn't Jordan be considered the best if he is winning titles?

It is a team sport. Was Billups the best in 04'? Dirk in 11'? Kawhi in 14'? Isiah better than prime MJ, prime Magic, prime Barkley, prime Hakeem, Bird, etc.?

Jordan fans do him a disservice by diminishing him to his team results. He was great because he was a great player, not because his team was great. We know what LeBron's teams do without him--we saw yet another example last night. :oldlol:

The "stars" argument doesn't hold up when we over and over again see his team play average or terribly without him there. The argument is those teams become dependent on him but supposedly Wade, Irving were A-list offensive wings and then you had supposedly A-list PF's in Bosh, Irving and now Davis. Well, why does the ship keep sinking without him then when they have A-list talent even without him? This equation does not hold up against the results.

[Lion's pride]

1890, 1891, 1892, 1893,, etc..... 1899.. that's it..

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Tier 1
1.90-93 Jordan
2.95-98 Jordan

Tier 2
1.Peak Kobe
2.Peak LeBron

[Axe]

You're a certified retard :lol

2012 and 2013 LeBron might be the peak Apex player in NBA history.

Back to back

118 ORtg, 97 DRtg
125 ORtg, 101 DRtg
2 FMVP
Gold Medal

Avg:
122 ORtg, 99 DRtg

Find me a better 2 year run.

LeBron has the greatest 1 year run (2016)
LeBron has the greatest 2 year run (2012, 2013)
LeBron has the greatest 5 year run (2012-2016)
LeBron has the greatest career run (6,911)

Wake up :lol
The obvious disparity between him and his teammates only helps a lot

[knicksman]

:confusedshrug:



It is a team sport. Was Billups the best in 04'? Dirk in 11'? Kawhi in 14'? Isiah better than prime MJ, prime Magic, prime Barkley, prime Hakeem, Bird, etc.?

Jordan fans do him a disservice by diminishing him to his team results. He was great because he was a great player, not because his team was great. We know what LeBron's teams do without him--we saw yet another example last night. :oldlol:

The "stars" argument doesn't hold up when we over and over again see his team play average or terribly without him there. The argument is those teams become dependent on him but supposedly Wade, Irving were A-list offensive wings and then you had supposedly A-list PF's in Bosh, Irving and now Davis. Well, why does the ship keep sinking without him then when they have A-list talent even without him? This equation does not hold up against the results.


if you remove the foundation of a building, the building crumbles whereas if you remove the building, the foundation is still there. But does that make the foundation more important than the building? Its the same with lebron, he runs the offense so of course it will crumble if hes out the same with pippen but that doesnt make them more valuable. You build around jordan not pippen. The same with lebron. Thats why you need a superteam to win with lebron

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

if you remove the foundation of a building, the building crumbles whereas if you remove the building, the foundation is still there. But does that make the foundation more important than the building? Its the same with lebron, he runs the offense so of course it will crumble if hes out the same with pippen but that doesnt make them more valuable. You build around jordan not pippen. The same with lebron. Thats why you need a superteam to win with lebron

So wouldn't that mean L36ron is just a really good role player?

[Manny98]

Peak MJ>peak LeBron. It's closer than MJ stans would like to admit but MJ has a clear edge IMO.
93 wasn't MJs peak tho, 12 LeBron had way better advanced stats in both the regular season & postseason than 93 MJ

[Manny98]

93 Jordan is pretty much the same as 91-92 Jordan just with a slight drop in athleticism.
Yes & the gap between peak Lebron & peak MJ is so miniscule that a slight drop in athleticism makes the difference

[Manny98]

Seriously. He seems to be flip-flopping.

Prime 2008 - 2010 Kobe, who is like 90% coverband Jordan ... is at best a cvnt hair away from being as good as second three peat 1996 - 1998 Jordan.

Prime LeBron 2011 - 2017 needed to stack the deck with all that help (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love) and still couldn’t win consistently even in his prime. 3 for 7 in that time frame.

Yet he is supposed to trump 96 and 97 Jordan? A guy who spearheaded arguably and probably the best basketball team ever? With just ONE other all star by his side? :oldlol:

I see a case for LeBron over 35 year old Jordan in 1998 and over Shaq in 1999. But anything else? And you’re out of your damn mind.

Kuntiva has been on a LeBron sucking off tangent.

LeBron was only a quality defender in 2011, 2012 and 2013. 3 years out of a 17 year career. Only when he was playing alongside two other great defenders and perennial all stars.

And at no point was ever the defender Jordan OR Hakeem was ... I don’t care what team defensive stats or ratings that are manufactured by stat nerds want to articulate. I watched the games.

Ironic coming from the guy who sucks off Jordan 24/7 and acts like he's god compared to everyone else

Kuniva isn't even a Lebron stan, he probably has the least biased perspective of anyone in this thread :oldlol:

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

93 wasn't MJs peak tho, 12 LeBron had way better advanced stats in both the regular season & postseason than 93 MJ
93 Jordan is pretty much the same as 91-92 Jordan just with a slight drop in athleticism.41 pts on 51% shooting in the 93 finals against Barkley's Suns.12 L36ron does nothing better than Jordan when it pertains to scoring and defense.His only go to move is drive to the fking basket,his streaky stiff jumpshot isn't reliable,his post game is lacking as well,I guess going to Hakeem didn't help.

In 4th quarters L36ron has been known throughout the years for passing the ball to other teammates instead of taking it into his own hands to will his team to victory via scoring the ball or staying in the game to stat pad even though his team has no shot of winning the game.This proves he isn't a killer like Mike and Kobe.

[Phoenix]

93 wasn't MJs peak tho, 12 LeBron had way better advanced stats in both the regular season & postseason than 93 MJ

93 was part of the period where MJs peak skillset meets with his peak/prime athleticism. There was a minor drop off in pure athletic explosion from say 91 but his skills and experience were better than 91. More consistent jumpshot, better 3ball. Could still dominate athletically when needed. Same with comparing 09 Lebron with 12 Bron. A minor drop in athletic explosion but more refined skillset. I would easily take 12 Lebron over 09 Lebron to win a finals series, regardless of whatever the advanced stats say about each guy in that given season. Some of you spend too much time on basketball reference and not enough time watching the game because all of your analysis consists of shit you can google in 5 seconds. 93 MJ was absolutely part of his 'peak'.

[Manny98]

No 91 was his "peak" 93 was part of his prime.

91 MJ is the consensus best version of Jordan so that is his peak

[Phoenix]

Oh so now peak is a single year as according to you? That's a rhetorical question, your opinion on basketball I mostly read for comic relief.

[Manny98]

Peak has always been a single season df are you talking about :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

No it hasn't. What df are *you* talking about?

[Manny98]

A single season = Peak

Multiple seasons = Prime

Jordans peak season was 1991

His prime was from 88-93

LeBrons peak season was in 2013

His prime was from 09-18

Peak is the absolute highest point so it can't span through multiple seasons that is a player's prime

[Phoenix]

So what makes 91 MJ 'peak'? Asides from what the advanced stats say and I'm not looking them up. Break down his game vs say 93 based on what you saw back then.

[Roundball_Rock]

93 wasn't MJs peak tho, 12 LeBron had way better advanced stats in both the regular season & postseason than 93 MJ

I meant three year peak, not a given season. Yeah, the stats favor LeBron but I simply consider 1991-1993 MJ better than any three year run of LeBron. Jordan was unstoppable because of his athletic ability mixed with his skill set and he peak MJ was a better defender than peak MJ was. LeBron is the better playmaker but that is about it. Small differences when you are talking top 4 ATG's, though.


Ironic coming from the guy who sucks off Jordan 24/7 and acts like he's god compared to everyone else

He is the guy who literally defended MJ's "D" size--and I don't mean "defense." :lol


93 was part of the period where MJs peak skillset meets with his peak/prime athleticism. There was a minor drop off in pure athletic explosion from say 91 but his skills and experience were better than 91. More consistent jumpshot, better 3ball. Could still dominate athletically when needed

Agree. Plus he was a better team player. If you watch the 91' finals the commentators almost want to give MJ a cookie for passing the ball :oldlol: but by 93' he could switch on and off between passing and facilitating.


A single season = Peak

Multiple seasons = Prime

Peak is both one year and a player's best 2-3 years. For instance, Shaq's 2000-2002 seasons often are referred to as his peak, even if 2000 was his individual best year. His prime was 1994-2005. For Jordan his peak was 1991-1993 and his prime 1987-1993, some would tack on 96'.

[Sulico]

They wouldn't have been the best in the 60s because of Wilt and Bill Russell. They would have been somewhere around prime Baylor, Oscar and West. But of course it all depends on the team and how that effects championships, but Bird and Magic aren't putting up the numbers Wilt did.

You probably right.

Players get worse and worse every decade.

Too bad we dont know players from like 1920's. Those guys were probably 3-4 tiers above bums that play in the NBA today.

[Manny98]

I agree that 91-93 MJ was better than any 3 year run of Lebron but if we're talking single season peaks. LeBrons is as good as any of MJ single seasons outside of 91 MJ

[pauk]

Not sure if serious, every year. "prime Lebron" = championship, fmvp, mvp, best stats, 1st all-defensive team AND being robbed of DPOY.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Coach in literal hysterics. Distraught over not ranking Jordan BEST every year. :oldlol:

You might not like it, but peak Bron definitely had years he was better than Jordan. The numbers both raw and advanced adhere to that. You don’t get to ignore them and then yak some hoe ass opinion on why the facts are wrong. “Bron can’t shoot though kuniva!”. Shut up.

And the eye test?

Peak Bron had flaws but could do it all w/ absurd athleticism. Its OK to admit these things. Nobody is going to revoke your MJ card, you have my word.


TS %: LeBron 62%, Jordan 56%
Per 100: LeBron 37/11/9, Jordan 41/9/6

tpols professes to love shooting stats so let's compare those too for 96'-98' MJ and Miami LeBron. "100" is league average.

League-adjusted eFG %: Jordan 105, 105, 99; LeBron 109, 114, 121, 122
League-adjusted TS %: 107, 106, 102; LeBron 110, 115, 120, 120

Oops :lol

But ya, Lebron has no argument at all.

90, 91, 92, 93, and maybe 96 Jordan are better. Beyond that, there are cases to be had.


What is the problem exactly?

Insecurity.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

You might not like it, but peak Bron definitely had years he was better than Jordan.
Yeah Wizards Jordan

[Roundball_Rock]

We are splitting hairs when we are talking this level of legend. I have peak MJ ahead of peak LeBron but the difference between them is probably 5%. On most teams I would draft MJ ahead of LeBron. If I had scrubs I would take LeBron for his floor raising ability but if I already had a decent or good team I would take MJ for his ceiling raising ability.


Coach in literal hysterics. Distraught over not ranking Jordan BEST every year.

You might not like it, but peak Bron definitely had years he was better than Jordan.

Per people like Coach/Samurai/Poutin/etc. Jordan's peak>>>>everyone else's.


90, 91, 92, 93, and maybe 96 Jordan are better. Beyond that, there are cases to be had.

Agreed.


if you remove the foundation of a building, the building crumbles whereas if you remove the building, the foundation is still there. But does that make the foundation more important than the building?

We are talking basketball teams, not construction. Are you saying LeBron=the foundation and Wade/Bosh, Irving/Love, Davis are the "building"? Using the same logic, Kawhi=the foundation and Lowry/Siakam=the building?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah Wizards Jordan

Yeah Wizards Jordan along with years in the 90s.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Yeah Wizards Jordan along with years in the 90s.
What aspects of the game was peak L36ron better at than 90s Jordan?

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah Wizards Jordan along with years in the 90s.

I am old enough to remember when many MJ stans said Cleveland I LeBron was better than 2008-2010 Kobe. That wasn't even peak Miami LeBron. 2008-2010 Kobe is basically 1996-1998 MJ with less efficiency (relative to the league*).

*Adjusted eFG % for MJ 1996-1998 (100=league average): 105, 105, 99; for 2008-2010 Kobe: 101, 100, 97.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

There's nothing inspiring about how L36ron plays basketball

[Shooter]

What aspects of the game was peak L36ron better at than 90s Jordan?

UM...?

Scoring
Passing
Defending
Rebounding
Leading

You know, the GAME :lol

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Scoring
Defending

L36ron better scorer than Jordan because career total points trolololol

L36ron better defender than Jordan because occasional chasedown blocks trolololol

[Shooter]

L36ron better scorer than Jordan because career total points trolololol

L36ron better defender than Jordan because occasional chasedown blocks trololol

Because FACTS baby boi

How are your Magic doing?

[Phoenix]

Not sure if serious, every year. "prime Lebron" = championship, fmvp, mvp, best stats, 1st all-defensive team AND being robbed of DPOY.

So....like Hakeem in 94?

Championship
MVP
FMVP
DPOY
1st team all-D
27ppg/12rpg/4bpg/4apg/2spg 53% (season)
29ppg/11rpg/4bpg/4apg/2spg 52% (playoffs)

You talk like you just....drop Lebron into a year like 94 and guys like this roll over.

[Shooter]

So....like Hakeem in 94?

Championship
MVP
FMVP
DPOY
1st team all-D
27ppg/12rpg/4bpg/4apg/2spg 53% (season)
29ppg/11rpg/4bpg/4apg/2spg 52% (playoffs)

You talk like you just....drop Lebron into a year like 94 and guys like this roll over.

GOAT level numbers but let's think for a sec. LBJ vs 90s perimeter defenders?

LBJ was dropping 34 on Klay, Dray, Iggy, KD in 2018
Does that jump to 40 against Hornacek and Craig Ehlo?

LBJs #s get a big boost against weak 90s defense

[Phoenix]

GOAT level numbers but let's think for a sec. LBJ vs 90s perimeter defenders?

LBJ was dropping 34 on Klay, Dray, Iggy, KD in 2018
Does that jump to 40 against Hornacek and Craig Ehlo?

LBJs #s get a big boost against weak 90s defense

How about you think for longer than a sec and look at the centers Hakeem was dropping those numbers on. Nothing in my post requires references to Hornacek and Ehlo and your not so thinly veiled dig is of no relevance to me or my point.

[insidious301]

We are splitting hairs when we are talking this level of legend. I have peak MJ ahead of peak LeBron but the difference between them is probably 5%. On most teams I would draft MJ ahead of LeBron. If I had scrubs I would take LeBron for his floor raising ability but if I already had a decent or good team I would take MJ for his ceiling raising ability.

Very good point Roundball. Not much separates the two if you look hard enough. Its amazing that LeBron has been so great for so long however. In my next thread, I will make a longevity parallel between LeBron and other greats. As for this topic though, I still think Hakeem would be the best player in 1994-95. LeBron-Shaq-Jordan splitting seasons the year after however.

[Phoenix]

Very good point Roundball. Not much separates the two if you look hard enough. Its amazing that LeBron has been so great for so long however. In my next thread, I will make a longevity parallel between LeBron and other greats. As for this topic though, I still think Hakeem would be the best player in 1994-95. LeBron, Shaq and Jordan splitting seasons the year after however.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxaJDHg12jc

I know you referenced 94-95 but I just watched this 94 playoff run and feel it needs to be dropped at this point. Some of the old heads may need a reminder, and the youngins who think basketball started in 2003 need a lesson in recent history. I can't speak to guys like Russell, Wilt and peak Alcindor but, this version of Hakeem is up there with anyone I've seen in the last 30 plus years.

[Shooter]

How about you think for longer than a sec and look at the centers Hakeem was dropping those numbers on. Nothing in my post requires references to Hornacek and Ehlo and your not so thinly veiled dig is of no relevance to me or my point.

Huh? Please think for a second LBJ vs 90s perimeter defenders would be a bloodbath.

LBJ dropped 34 on Klay, Dray, Iggy, KD in 2018 (elite defenders and athletes)

So then does that # jump to 40 against Hornacek and Craig Ehlo?

LBJs #s would def get a big boost against weak 90s defense.

[Phoenix]

Huh? Please think for a second LBJ vs 90s perimeter defenders would be a bloodbath.

LBJ dropped 34 on Klay, Dray, Iggy, KD in 2018 (elite defenders and athletes)

So then does that # jump to 40 against Hornacek and Craig Ehlo?

LBJs #s would def get a big boost against weak 90s defense.

Huh? How about you think for longer than a sec and look at the centers Hakeem was dropping those numbers on. Nothing in my post requires references to Hornacek and Ehlo and your not so thinly veiled dig is of no relevance to me or my point.

[RRR3]

Kuniva getting attacked by his fellow MJ fans for being objective :biggums:

Can’t make this shit up

[tpols]

Coach in literal hysterics. Distraught over not ranking Jordan BEST every year. :oldlol:



I dont think Coach is upset over that. What it comes down to is this... Lebron has never led a dominant team as good as the 2nd 3peat Bulls. Talent is not a question. Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh were better than Pippen and Rodman at those times. Lebron still did less. No 72 wins. No 3peat. No legendary send off... instead a legendary ass kicking. It's night and day. Karl Malone used to win MVP over MJ back then, but nobody after seeing them go H2H would dare say Karl outplayed Michael. And that is EXACTLY what would happen if the two were in the same league at the same time with similar help. It's incredible you think LBJ's team would win given what we've seen from them both.

[Shooter]

I dont think Coach is upset over that. What it comes down to is this... Lebron has never led a dominant team as good as the 2nd 3peat Bulls. Talent is not a question. Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh were better than Pippen and Rodman at those times. Lebron still did less. No 72 wins. No 3peat. No legendary send off... instead a legendary ass kicking. It's night and day. Karl Malone used to win MVP over MJ back then, but nobody after seeing them go H2H would dare say Karl outplayed Michael. And that is EXACTLY what would happen if the two were in the same league at the same time with similar help. It's incredible you think LBJ's team would win given what we've seen from them both.

He beat 10.7 ppg #2options :lol

Weak era

Move on

[tpols]

It's impossible to think that Lebron's Heat would beat the 72 win Bulls dynasty. And we know the talent is either equal or in Lebron's favor. They were projected for not 4, not 5 not 6, etc. rings. And yet... they were underdogs to an old Spurs team. Got demolished by them in 2014 and by an old mavericks team in 2011. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell those Heat teams could compete with those Bulls teams and the clear difference maker is Michael Jordan. It would be an epic big brother sonning and I think everybody knows it.

[insidious301]

Kuniva getting attacked by his fellow MJ fans for being objective :biggums:

Can’t make this shit up

I thought it was bizarre too. Roundball and Kuniva are attacked for giving honest and good faith opinions. Both have Peak Jordan over Peak LeBron so this is all petty. I really don't why Tpol is saying people are claiming Miami>Chicago in the finals. What the hell? Haha. When did this become the Chicago Bulls vs Miami Heat? And Shooter, you are trolling calling the 90s a weak era. Please stick to the topic and don't stray.

[Phoenix]

He beat 10.7 ppg #2options :lol

Weak era

Move on

The obvious counter to that is this is the 2nd option Lebron would be facing a lot in the 90s:

https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/25/scottie-pippen.jpg

And we all know what happens whenever he faces off against a 'Pippen' like defender in the finals:

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/78/7859/S368300Z/posters/san-antonio-spurs-kawhi-leonard-nba-championship-mvp-trophies-game-5-of-the-2014-nba-finals.jpg

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Ft2Ayu3om8RbcSE7H8p0fwHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/319/files/2016/11/Vader-R1-Japan-Trailer.gif
"Be careful not to choke on your agendas"

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron has never led a dominant team as good as the 2nd 3peat Bulls.

"Jordan had the GOAT teams"
"Jordan had no help"

:lol

MJ stans can't be taken seriously on anything related to team success. The same people who say MJ had no help will say the Bulls were the best team without MJ and should have won the chip without him. Suddenly the same players become "no help" whenever MJ is around, which is bizarre. Is the argument they turn into pumpkins with MJ or something? :oldlol: The same people who in some threads will say the Bulls faced tough competition in other threads will say 6 rings were foreordained no matter what--apparently the comp was too weak to have any agency to impact the outcome in even one of those years.

The agendas are so distorted they can't keep them straight. :roll:

[Shooter]

LeBron aint worried about 10 ppg #2 options that cant play defense :lol

[Phoenix]

LeBron aint worried about 10 ppg #2 options that cant play defense :lol

Focus up and think for a sec

The obvious counter to that is this is the 2nd option Lebron would be facing a lot in the 90s:

https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/25/scottie-pippen.jpg

And we all know what happens whenever he faces off against a 'Pippen' like defender in the finals:

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/78/7859/S368300Z/posters/san-antonio-spurs-kawhi-leonard-nba-championship-mvp-trophies-game-5-of-the-2014-nba-finals.jpg

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Ft2Ayu3om8RbcSE7H8p0fwHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/319/files/2016/11/Vader-R1-Japan-Trailer.gif
"Be careful not to choke on your agendas"

[Shooter]

Who feared 10 ppg Hornacek :roll:

Imagine a menacing Hornacek. #1 lowest ppg for a #2 in Finals HISTORY :roll:

#WeakEra
#MJChronicles
#90sWNBA

[knicksman]

We are splitting hairs when we are talking this level of legend. I have peak MJ ahead of peak LeBron but the difference between them is probably 5%. On most teams I would draft MJ ahead of LeBron. If I had scrubs I would take LeBron for his floor raising ability but if I already had a decent or good team I would take MJ for his ceiling raising ability.



Per people like Coach/Samurai/Poutin/etc. Jordan's peak>>>>everyone else's.



Agreed.



We are talking basketball teams, not construction. Are you saying LeBron=the foundation and Wade/Bosh, Irving/Love, Davis are the "building"? Using the same logic, Kawhi=the foundation and Lowry/Siakam=the building?

theres a reason why raptors are still good just like bulls are still good without jordan. Theres a reason too why suns crumble without nash or okc without westbrook because they are the ones who ran the offense.

[Manny98]

Kuniva getting attacked by his fellow MJ fans for being objective :biggums:

Can’t make this shit up
Just proves why they are the most insecure fanbase ever :lol

If you don't think their idol is literally God in basketball shoes then prepare to get attacked

[999Guy]

90 LeBron(barely
91 Jordan(barely)
92 Jordan(easily)
93 Hakeem(close but clear)
94 Hakeem(so barely)
95 LeBron
96 Jordan
97 LeBron(maybe close, definitely clear)
98 LeBron(easily)

This is assuming 09 LeBron in 1990 all the way until 2017 LeBron in 1998.

[Manny98]

90 LeBron(barely
91 Jordan(barely)
92 Jordan(easily)
93 Hakeem(close but clear)
94 Hakeem(so barely)
95 LeBron
96 Jordan
97 LeBron(maybe close, definitely clear)
98 LeBron(easily)

This is assuming 09 LeBron in 1990 all the way until 2017 LeBron in 1998.
So you think Hakeem is better than peak Lebron?

[999Guy]

So you think Hakeem is better than peak Lebron?

More or less.

By 93 Hakeem had Jokic’s offensive pull on the game and god knows on defense. Like a roided Draymond with slightly less intelligence.

I could be wrong but put it this way. On no planet is LeBron playing peak Hakeem in a series and he doesn’t feel it physically and mentally. LeBron’s biggest career obstacles have been centered around elite defensive big men.

He’s done whatever he’s wanted to any wing to step to him. Don’t underestimate how hard to it is to play an elite big man in the playoffs. They’re better than their stats.

[Axe]

theres a reason why raptors are still good just like bulls are still good without jordan. Theres a reason too why suns crumble without nash or okc without westbrook because they are the ones who ran the offense.
Yeah, they're good enough to be in the playoffs but it doesn't go beyond that. Without the main stars of different teams, like the bulls without mj, cavs without lbj, lakers without kobe, raptors without kawhi and so on, once they clinched their respective spots then at best they wouldn't advance past the conference finals. Never forget that those guys have won the fmvp at least twice mostly because of their scoring efforts that also allowed their teams to win in the finals.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

90 LeBron(barely
91 Jordan(barely)
92 Jordan(easily)
93 Hakeem(close but clear)
94 Hakeem(so barely)
95 LeBron
96 Jordan
97 LeBron(maybe close, definitely clear)
98 LeBron(easily)

This is assuming 09 LeBron in 1990 all the way until 2017 LeBron in 1998.

Any particular reason why you have Jordan for 91,92,96 instead of your King?

[Axe]

In 96 jordan was part of the first 70-win team in the league and also the first fmvp of the said team.

[999Guy]

90 Jordan has no mental advantages over LeBron. Who’s a better athlete. Which leaks into being a naturally better defender and to me is a smarter player outright by how he sees teamnplay on both ends.

I’ll take smarts over Jordan’s skill in super athletic god level bodies.

LeBron ate a strong, loaded NBA alive for 100 games in 2009. He was incredible. There’s no passion involved. Just preference. Like I said, just barely.

Jordan hadn’t really bought into the triangle AND left stat padding behind until 1991. Where he had maybe his most underrated Bulls team, steamroll for 100 games. Even if LA was injured.

Now if Jordan is gonna be mentally great, as compared to whatever people claimed about LBJ in 2010, then its close but clear. Though LeBron was amazing so just a “barely” rating.


2011 LeBron sucked offensively. None of the quickness of his early 20’s. He sucked. Got exposed for it in the finals.
Carlisle was too smart to allow a middle class Giannis to physically overpower his team of smart athletes.

Jordan was slightly less athletic but even more mentally effective in 92. Easy easy choice.

2015 LeBron would play in 96. Worse athletic year as a Cav because he lost weight and injured his back. Horrible jump shooting.

Jordan mentally and skillfully peaked in 96 even as a much slower player. The 2020 CP3 version of himself. Easy choice.

[knicksman]

Yeah, they're good enough to be in the playoffs but it doesn't go beyond that. Without the main stars of different teams, like the bulls without mj, cavs without lbj, lakers without kobe, raptors without kawhi and so on, once they clinched their respective spots then at best they wouldn't advance past the conference finals. Never forget that those guys have won the fmvp at least twice mostly because of their scoring efforts that also allowed their teams to win in the finals.

Lebron is more like pippen. Offense crumbles if he leaves.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

90 Jordan has no mental advantages over LeBron. Who’s a better athlete. Which leaks into being a naturally better defender and to me is a smarter player outright by how he sees teamnplay on both ends.

I’ll take smarts over Jordan’s skill in super athletic god level bodies.

LeBron ate a strong, loaded NBA alive for 100 games in 2009. He was incredible. There’s no passion involved. Just preference. Like I said, just barely.

Jordan hadn’t really bought into the triangle AND left stat padding behind until 1991. Where he had maybe his most underrated Bulls team, steamroll for 100 games. Even if LA was injured.

Now if Jordan is gonna be mentally great, as compared to whatever people claimed about LBJ in 2010, then its close but clear. Though LeBron was amazing so just a “barely” rating.


2011 LeBron sucked offensively. None of the quickness of his early 20’s. He sucked. Got exposed for it in the finals.
Carlisle was too smart to allow a middle class Giannis to physically overpower his team of smart athletes.

Jordan was slightly less athletic but even more mentally effective in 92. Easy easy choice.

2015 LeBron would play in 96. Worse athletic year as a Cav because he lost weight and injured his back. Horrible jump shooting.

Jordan mentally and skillfully peaked in 96 even as a much slower player. The 2020 CP3 version of himself. Easy choice.

This doesn't answer my question

L36ron fanboys and L36ron apologists are picking 91,92,and for whatever reason 96 Jordan over Peak L36ron due to "more athleticism" yet they pick Peak L36ron over 95,97,98 Jordan due to decline in athleticism even though those versions of Jordan were more skilled than Peak L36ron.

[Axe]

Lebron is more like pippen. Offense crumbles if he leaves.
Most likely, especially whenever he's leading a team full with bunch of scrubs. However, we know his scoring figures are much higher than pippen's.

[insidious301]

90 LeBron(barely
91 Jordan(barely)
92 Jordan(easily)
93 Hakeem(close but clear)
94 Hakeem(so barely)
95 LeBron
96 Jordan
97 LeBron(maybe close, definitely clear)
98 LeBron(easily)

This is assuming 09 LeBron in 1990 all the way until 2017 LeBron in 1998.

Unique take, 999Guy. Which year of LeBron are you thinking about when ranking him over 90 Jordan? And 1995 Hakeem? I thought Hakeem peaked from 1993-1995 as well. However don't think he became the best until Jordan retired.

[Whoah10115]

Kuniva getting attacked by his fellow MJ fans for being objective :biggums:

Can’t make this shit up

Sounds like one guy "attacking him" and others disagreeing. Relax.

[Phoenix]

Shooter getting checkmated badly so just keeps throwing the 10ppg schtick. :lol

[sdot_thadon]

I like the idea that if we're lining up 09 Lebron with 90 Mj and so forth we'd end up with 1st 3peat Mj by a slight margin with Lebron taking over after that, with the caveat that 96 Mj is perhaps better than 2015 Lbj imo. However there's are other prime years I'd take over 96 Mj if it isn't a static comparison. 2nd 3peat Mj was actually my favorite part of his career because that's when he thought the game best, he knew every trick in the book and masked any percieved decline as best he could. I actually enjoy that part of most great players career because you get to see the counter to athletic decline. I actually enjoy some of the level headed banter in this thread, (looking at kuniva and roundball) it's refreshing to see on ish.

One thing i can throw into the pot for debates like these is this: Lebron in the 90s would be like nothing they'd ever seen, maybe even moreso than Mj. A 6'9 guy handling the rock like a pg, from the perimeter in with the physicality and size of a Pf, moving faster than many smaller players and taking deep/ step backs 3's, etc? He'd have been unreal and I wonder if that aspect of this scenario could possibly carry him past Mj in a vaccum?

[NBAGOAT]

This doesn't answer my question

L36ron fanboys and L36ron apologists are picking 91,92,and for whatever reason 96 Jordan over Peak L36ron due to "more athleticism" yet they pick Peak L36ron over 95,97,98 Jordan due to decline in athleticism even though those versions of Jordan were more skilled than Peak L36ron.

dont think you read his statement well. he picks 96 mj because that's his peak when it came to skill not athleticism

[FromDowntown]

Tier 1
1.90-93 Jordan
2.95-98 Jordan

Tier 2
1.Peak Kobe
2.Peak LeBron

3ball spotted :lol

Tier I
2012, 2013 LeBron
2016-2018 LeBron

Tier II
2009 LeBron
Peak MJ

Tier III
Who cares

[FromDowntown]

Shooter getting checkmated badly so just keeps throwing the 10ppg schtick. :lol

You didn't count anything he said. All you did was repost Iggy as if LeBron didn't have his #2 and #3 option missing in the 2015 Finals. MJ couldn't get out of the FIRST ROUND without his #2 option.

Let it sink in

[FromDowntown]

Who feared 10 ppg Hornacek :roll:

Imagine a menacing Hornacek. #1 lowest ppg for a #2 in Finals HISTORY :roll:

#WeakEra
#MJChronicles
#90sWNBA

:roll:

MJ 90s rivalries

J Starks and J Hornacek

CUPCAKE league

[Phoenix]

You didn't count anything he said. All you did was repost Iggy as if LeBron didn't have his #2 and #3 option missing in the 2015 Finals. MJ couldn't get out of the FIRST ROUND without his #2 option.

Let it sink in

'He'? You mean 'you'? :oldlol:

All I did was make the point about '10.7ppg' competition irrelevant because his positional counterpart is Pip and that's who hes facing in a Bulls match-up. Focus up cupcake.

[FromDowntown]

'He'? You mean 'you'? :oldlol:

https://media.giphy.com/media/y6Inkaz7omxAk/giphy.gif