Hakeem without championships. How would he rank?

[insidious301]

Lets assume in a hypothetical the Bulls picked up where they left off in 1993. Jordan never retires but they still acquire Kukoc, Kerr, Harper etc. Now lets assume Hakeem plays identical to how he did in 1994 and 1995, but loses to the Bulls. Where would Hakeem rank with no rings?

[NBAGOAT]

Likely not top 10 though I wouldnt change his position that much. I think he still be ahead of Malone and Barkley.

[Phoenix]

Karl Malone seems to get ranked in the 15 to 20 range. If Hakeem does everything else in his career minus the two titles? I think he'd be at the top at the 'best to never win' list.

[HoopsNY]

Karl Malone seems to get ranked in the 15 to 20 range. If Hakeem does everything else in his career minus the two titles? I think he'd be at the top at the 'best to never win' list.

Hakeem is significantly better than Malone. I think he ends up outside of the top 10, so maybe top 10-15. He's in my top 10 as is (in fact, I have him at #2).

[insidious301]

What rings will do for someones legacy man. He could play the same but without the hardware you see the difference.


Hakeem is significantly better than Malone. I think he ends up outside of the top 10, so maybe top 10-15. He's in my top 10 as is (in fact, I have him at #2).

Top 2? Woah. You are higher on him than anyone I have seen post on ISH.

[HoopsNY]

What rings will do for someones legacy man. He could play the same but without the hardware you see the difference.



Top 2? Woah. You are higher on him than anyone I have seen post on ISH.

I tend to weigh championships less than most other people. I firmly believe that the way people view Hakeem is a result of what happened to his team from 1986 onward. Just look at the common criticisms on this forum, "he kept getting knocked out of the playoffs," "he missed the playoffs," blah blah.

No context, no analysis, just the usual rubric methods on outcomes without a deep dive into the demise of the Houston Rockets. Bird and Magic are consistently top 5 on many people's lists, but did anyone beg to ask the question as to what happens to the Lakers if you deleted Kareem, Nixon, Cooper, and Scott. Or how about if the Celtics lost McHale, DJ, Ainge, and Walton?

Now sure, Reid, Sampson, Lucas, and Wiggins weren't on the level as those guys, but the premise still remains the same. If the Rockets maintain that '86 team, they likely win 1-2 championships in the late 80s, and that's before Hakeem's two title runs in the 90s.

[insidious301]

I tend to weigh championships less than most other people. I firmly believe that the way people view Hakeem is a result of what happened to his team from 1986 onward. Just look at the common criticisms on this forum, "he kept getting knocked out of the playoffs," "he missed the playoffs," blah blah.

No context, no analysis, just the usual rubric methods on outcomes without a deep dive into the demise of the Houston Rockets. Bird and Magic are consistently top 5 on many people's lists, but did anyone beg to ask the question as to what happens to the Lakers if you deleted Kareem, Nixon, Cooper, and Scott. Or how about if the Celtics lost McHale, DJ, Ainge, and Walton?

Now sure, Reid, Sampson, Lucas, and Wiggins weren't on the level as those guys, but the premise still remains the same. If the Rockets maintain that '86 team, they likely win 1-2 championships in the late 80s, and that's before Hakeem's two title runs in the 90s.

I agree with what you're trying to say, but above you said Hakeem would be top 10-15 without rings. From number 2 all-time to 15 is a pretty big jump. And for what, a piece of hardware? Keep in mind this is Hakeem hypothetically playing the same.

[Phoenix]

Hakeem is significantly better than Malone. I think he ends up outside of the top 10, so maybe top 10-15. He's in my top 10 as is (in fact, I have him at #2).

Yes he is, but I'm using Malones ranking as a barometer to say that if Malone is ranked say, 16th or whatever( and all these rankings are subjective) that Hakeem should be somewhere above that. If you feel Mailmans general ranking is legit, then there isnt much wiggle room between him and guys like Dr.J, Moses, West and Oscar. Unless you think Hakeem warrants being in that ranking class and based on what you said above I'm assuming that's the case( which I don't necessarily disagree with FWIW).

[Marchesk]

Likely not top 10 though I wouldnt change his position that much. I think he still be ahead of Malone and Barkley.

Moses Malone also? Moses would have a ring to none for Hakeem in this hypothetical. Moses tends to get ranked in that 11-20 territory with Karl Malone and Chuck.

[NBAGOAT]

Moses Malone also? Moses would have a ring to none for Hakeem in this hypothetical. Moses tends to get ranked in that 11-20 territory with Karl Malone and Chuck.

yea but i know you might disagree. I just think hakeem's better than moses. once we get to oscar, west dr.j kg it starts to be uncertain(yes i have kg over malone/barkley)

[Roundball_Rock]

I think people overrate the impact of rings on player's AT rankings. Just pick any random group of 10 players on the most recent list (from ESPN). There isn't a discernible ring based pattern. Fans seem to value it a lot more than experts/historians.

Look at the players ranked 11-20 (number of rings in parentheses): Oscar (1), Hakeem (2), Curry (3), Durant (2), Dr. J (1), West (1), K. Malone (0), M. Malone (1), Dirk (1), KG (1). Some ringless, some with multiple, most with 1.

If you look at 21-40 there is a dead even split between players with rings and ringless players.

Some of this is due to compression--which becomes more acute the higher on the AT list you go. If Barkley has a ring, for example, there is only so much higher he could go. He isn't going into the top 15 no matter what. A ring would get take him from being around 19-22 to 17-19.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105681/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-40-11

[bizil]

Karl Malone seems to get ranked in the 15 to 20 range. If Hakeem does everything else in his career minus the two titles? I think he'd be at the top at the 'best to never win' list.

Right! Dream would be a top 15-20 guy EASY without the rings. Because two MVP's and being the best player in the world while MJ was playing baseball would be major factors of course. And in general, he's the best blend of skill, athletic ability, scoring, rebounding and defense EVER at the center spot.

[Marchesk]

yea but i know you might disagree. I just think hakeem's better than moses. once we get to oscar, west dr.j kg it starts to be uncertain(yes i have kg over malone/barkley)

You're probably right, given Hakeem's defensive impact. Sometimes I just like to argue the contrary opinion, because players like Moses get forgotten. But also because most of us didn't get to see him play.

[Lion's pride]

Let me start by saying I have a lot of Basketball "pet peeves" One is Hakeem should always be > Duncan.. yet so many times, almost always, rankings have Duncan > Hakeem..

So for me Hakeem top 10 regardless.

[Marchesk]

Let me start by saying I have a lot of Basketball "pet peeves" One is Hakeem should always be > Duncan.. yet so many times, almost always, rankings have Duncan > Hakeem..

So for me Hakeem top 10 regardless.

Do you rank Hakeem ahead of Bird or Magic? Just curious, because most have Duncan right there with those two.

[ArbitraryWater]

Same spot, maybe slightly lower, because if he plays the same, it could mean he didnt punish the Bulls enough..

But is there anyone with his stats/playoff resume that didn’t win two chips?

No.

But I mean, I think except a few cases, people expect ranks to shift too much in the public eye..

Wilt for the most part is still regarded top 5.

Jerry West top 15 (should be 11-12 tbf tho).

[LAmbruh]

like every other overrated 90's player that was a perennial playoff choker in 1st-2nd rounds out West


"a HOF'r that couldn't get past MJ"

[HoopsNY]

I agree with what you're trying to say, but above you said Hakeem would be top 10-15 without rings. From number 2 all-time to 15 is a pretty big jump. And for what, a piece of hardware? Keep in mind this is Hakeem hypothetically playing the same.

Right, but his biggest moments also came in championship play. I'm assuming that isn't the case if he has zero rings. Basically, he would have had to play badly in order to lose those titles.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's funny, cause Hakeem arguably might be the best player I've seen "since Jordan" and he played within the same era. An argument could easily be made as a player that he was better than D-Rob, Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Steph, Leonard etc.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's funny, cause Hakeem arguably might be the best player I've seen "since Jordan" and he played within the same era. An argument could easily be made as a player that he was better than D-Rob, Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Steph, Leonard etc.
Imo Hakeem was better than everyone listed outside of Shaq & LeBron, and even that could be argued. 1993-95 Hakeem was an absolute monster, two GOAT level title runs

[SamuraiSWISH]

Imo Hakeem was better than everyone listed outside of Shaq & LeBron, and even that could be argued. 1993-95 Hakeem was an absolute monster, two GOAT level title runs
Agreed but better defender than both. Less help than both. And never got out played by his MVP contemporary at his position, he always did the absuing. Unlike Shaq (courtesy Hakeem), and LeBron getting punked by Leonard and Durant.

[insidious301]

Right, but his biggest moments also came in championship play. I'm assuming that isn't the case if he has zero rings. Basically, he would have had to play badly in order to lose those titles.

That's not part of the OP, HoopsNY. I said to assume all those things did happen. We aren't taking anything from Olajuwon except his championship rings.

[insidious301]

Let me start by saying I have a lot of Basketball "pet peeves" One is Hakeem should always be > Duncan.. yet so many times, almost always, rankings have Duncan > Hakeem..

So for me Hakeem top 10 regardless.

I have seen plenty of posters rank Hakeem over Duncan. Not traditionally with resumes however in a draft and through prime play.

[HoopsNY]

That's not part of the OP, HoopsNY. I said to assume all those things did happen. We aren't taking anything from Olajuwon except his championship rings.

Aha, in that case then he still remains top 10, though he probably drops down in the list a little.

[72-10]

probably would be the best player not to win a championship, which means he'd crack the top 20, actually probably about 15th all-time placing just above Charles Barkley. Hakeem's lack of communication skills are what are really holding him back here...

Barkley had more weapons in his offensive array, but Hakeem was so sound at both offense and defense that he's a top five two-way player in the game. Hakeem made the best defensive centers look like they were on skates. No one could defend his Dream Shake, and everyone found it a monumental task to score on him in the paint.

[houston]

like every other overrated 90's player that was a perennial playoff choker in 1st-2nd rounds out West


"a HOF'r that couldn't get past MJ"



this true I feel this

[Whoah10115]

Pretty much impossible to decide, because his greatness is why they won.

He would have to have been less great. So LeBron in 12, or Duncan in 03...standout runs.

[NBAGOAT]

Pretty much impossible to decide, because his greatness is why they won.

He would have to have been less great. So LeBron in 12, or Duncan in 03...standout runs.

duncan 03 is as impressive as hakeem's years

[Whoah10115]

duncan 03 is as impressive as hakeem's years

Well Hakeem was better front to back, but the highs were reasonably close. He also had a singular moment against an all-time great.

[insidious301]

duncan 03 is as impressive as hakeem's years

Hakeem went through tougher competition, NBAGOAT. In 1994, he faced better centers relative to his era I believe. Prime David Robinson, Shaq & Ewing.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hakeem went through tougher competition, NBAGOAT. In 1994, he faced better centers relative to his era I believe. Prime David Robinson, Shaq & Ewing.
He faced Ewing in '94, but '95 he faced D-Rob & Shaq b2b without HCA and outplayed both of them (and obv destroyed Robinson & Ewing the year before)

[insidious301]

He faced Ewing in '94, but '95 he faced D-Rob & Shaq b2b without HCA and outplayed both of them (and obv destroyed Robinson & Ewing the year before)

Yeah meant to say 1995. Good post though, and I agree.