Do the Nets need Kyrie?

[Marchesk]

A depleted squad goes 4-2 in the bubble with wins over Bucks and Clippers. Second straight year in the playoffs. Durant coming back next year with a good supporting cast. Trade Kyrie to Pelicans for Holiday and Reddick.

[LoneyROY7]

Kyrie is an elite 2nd option. He will fit very well alongside KD.

[Marchesk]

Kyrie is an elite 2nd option. He will fit very well alongside KD.

Trade him for Westbrook :D

[Marchesk]

Kyrie is an elite 2nd option. He will fit very well alongside KD.

But seriously, Nets looking like Eastern Clippers next season. The only thing is does Kyrie think he's a second option? Because he wanted out of Cleveland, in part because he was #2. Maybe it's different with Durant?

[LAmbruh]

18 Cavs? nope

18 Celtics? nope

current Celtics? nope

current Nets? nope

[Marchesk]

18 Cavs? nope

18 Celtics? nope

current Celtics? nope

current Nets? nope

Kyrie for Kuzma and Caruso? Lebron can have his Big 3 again.

[LoneyROY7]

But seriously, Nets looking like Eastern Clippers next season. The only thing is does Kyrie think he's a second option? Because he wanted out of Cleveland, in part because he was #2. Maybe it's different with Durant?

I'm sure Kyrie understands KD's talent and scoring capability.

Th only way that happens is if KD's returns not remotely the same player. Which I doubt.

[CTbasketball92]

But seriously, Nets looking like Eastern Clippers next season. The only thing is does Kyrie think he's a second option? Because he wanted out of Cleveland, in part because he was #2. Maybe it's different with Durant?


He decided to play with KD so I'm sure all is well. They were dying to play with each other.

Additionally, I think his leaving Cleveland was in large part about LeBron's ball-dominant ways. KD is very used to playing off ball, and his injury might make it so he doesn't want to play on ball as much.

As for the thread itself, it's pretty silly. You need high-end talent to win at a high-level.

For the last four years, Kyrie has averaged 24/6 on 60 TS% and around 48/40/90 splits with a very low turnover rate in three or so very different situations, which proves that he can do whatever he's going to do in any situation, whether it's off ball, on ball, in a Spurs-esque system, or a your-turn, my turn system like OKC, etc. Kyrie has had an average ws/48 of .196 over that time, which is well into All-NBA level. When he's been healthy enough to be on the court, he's been All-NBA level. He should've been on a team in 2016-2017, would have in 2017-2018, was on it in 2018-2019. Kyrie was averaging 27/6/5 on 60 TS% this year and the offense was 6 points better with him on the court. By most accounts he's been trending upward as a player since 2014-2015. He's been around a top 12-15 player that whole time in different circumstances. They need Kyrie if they want to win a championship, they've got no shot without him.

I don't know why Kyrie in particular is prone to being the subject of these debates. We saw KD get knocked out in the second round back in 2013. We've seen how this movie goes. You have to get at least two all-nba guys and a solid supporting cast and a solid coach to win a chip. Caris Levert is fine, but he is very ball-dominant, not a good shooter, not a good passer, has total tunnel vision and is an awful defender. Spencer is very streaky. Jarrett Allen is kind of suspect a good amount of the time.

Add in KD—assuming hes still a top 10 player, closer to top 5—and Kyrie—who will have more time to learn the system after seeing film and seeing team and getting to play more games—they can definitely beat Milwaukee. I'm not worried about the Celtics or 76ers honestly, or even Toronto. Just milwaukee.

[CTbasketball92]

Additionally, Kyrie will still get his 20 or so shots a game. Steph and KD both averaged over 25 when they were on the same team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

They look better without Kyrie because Kyrie is a fake #1. Add in a real #1 like KD and Kyrie will look much better.

Kawhi's second option tonight bitchboy dleaguer Shamet gave him 1 point, otherwise that would of still been a clippers W with their 3 best players out.

[Gray GOAT]

Every team, without exception, just performs better when he isn’t on it. That is a TERRIBLE look. If this Nets thing doesn’t work out, and we have solid reason and considerable evidence that it won’t, he might be done playing playoff basketball and only desperate teams like the Kings or the Suns will throw money at him.

[LoneyROY7]

They look better without Kyrie because Kyrie is a fake #1. Add in a real #1 like KD and Kyrie will look much better.

Kawhi's second option tonight bitchboy dleaguer Shamet gave him 1 point, otherwise that would of still been a clippers W with their 3 best players out.

You literally have to insert Kawhi somehow in every single post. :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Gray GOAT]

You literally have to insert Kawhi somehow in every single post. :oldlol: :oldlol:

Autism supporting autism.

[Axe]

You literally have to insert Kawhi somehow in every single post. :oldlol: :oldlol:
Lmao

[ImKobe]

If they want to win in the Playoffs they do. That team has some nice young talent so no wonder they were still able to win games without him and KD in the RS, they'll be a legitimate contender if healthy. 4 guys who can create their own shot and also make plays for others and one of the best catch & shoot players in Joe Harris, Allen and DJ are decent bigs as well, very efficient in their roles offensively.

[NBAGOAT]

Yes but they should look to package dinwiddie/levert for a star or one of them for a great defensive minded wing. As constructed I don’t think they’re a top 2 team in the east even if kd is fine(80% of his old self).

They don’t have defense at any position besides center. The clips have a bunch of defensive role players to support their 4 scorers and add on kawhi and George can defend. Prince contract also a mistake if it means losing harris

[imdaman99]

But seriously, Nets looking like Eastern Clippers next season. The only thing is does Kyrie think he's a second option? Because he wanted out of Cleveland, in part because he was #2. Maybe it's different with Durant?

Kyrie and KD are both weirdos. Great talents and mentally challenged but I'm sure they'll make it work. I don't know about a ring but KD instantly makes almost any team a playoff contender. Kyrie chose to team up with KD.

[FireDavidKahn]

Kyrie and KD are both weirdos. Great talents and mentally challenged but I'm sure they'll make it work. I don't know about a ring but KD instantly makes almost any team a playoff contender. Kyrie chose to team up with KD.

KD may be all of that but he is still a massive floor raiser turning pretty much any team into a good one.

Kyrie? Not so much. He can be a second option but as a 1st option he isn't raising the floor of any team he is on.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't know why Kyrie in particular is prone to being the subject of these debates. We saw KD get knocked out in the second round back in 2013. We've seen how this movie goes. You have to get at least two all-nba guys and a solid supporting cast and a solid coach to win a chip. Caris Levert is fine, but he is very ball-dominant, not a good shooter, not a good passer, has total tunnel vision and is an awful defender. Spencer is very streaky. Jarrett Allen is kind of suspect a good amount of the time.

Add in KD—assuming hes still a top 10 player, closer to top 5—and Kyrie—who will have more time to learn the system after seeing film and seeing team and getting to play more games—they can definitely beat Milwaukee. I'm not worried about the Celtics or 76ers honestly, or even Toronto. Just milwaukee.

Its because team after team not just continues winning without Kyrie, but sometimes, somehow, actually starts winning at a better clip than they did with him.

Thats what raises concerns to his style.

But generally I agree with you.

Kyrie is an almost elite player, ultimate #2 IMO.

[999Guy]

KD will comeback fine IMO. Blew out the right Achilles.

Kyrie stinks though. Horrible at every aspect of the game other than scoring and playmaking, where he’s not some franchise changer anyway. Not close to elite. Never was.

They are bound to disappoint and be Giannis’ bitches. They’ll struggle against Boston.

[Gruppenführer]

Outside of his scoring abilities, Kyrie brings nothing else to the table.

[Vino24]

Its because team after team not just continues winning without Kyrie, but sometimes, somehow, actually starts winning at a better clip than they did with him.

Thats what raises concerns to his style.

But generally I agree with you.

Kyrie is an almost elite player, ultimate #2 IMO.

Kyrie hijacks offenses with his stupid fvcking ball dribbling. Kyrie is NOT the ultimate number 2. Only a player who can do everything like LeBron can win with a glorified Stefan Marbury

[ArbitraryWater]

Kyrie hijacks offenses with his stupid fvcking ball dribbling. Kyrie is NOT the ultimate number 2. Only a player who can do everything like LeBron can win with a glorified Stefan Marbury

Glorified Stephon Marbury cmon man you‘re talking out of your ass

[Vino24]

Glorified Stephon Marbury cmon man you‘re talking out of your ass

Marbury led utterly shit teams to the playoffs and averaged 20/8/3 for his career. He’s actually better than Kyrie

[ImKobe]

KD will comeback fine IMO. Blew out the right Achilles.

Kyrie stinks though. Horrible at every aspect of the game other than scoring and playmaking, where he’s not some franchise changer anyway. Not close to elite. Never was.

They are bound to disappoint and be Giannis’ bitches. They’ll struggle against Boston.

:kobe:

How does Kyrie stink, when he's one of the best finishers and shooters of all time? He's an elite offensive player, same tier as Curry and Dame.

[Gray GOAT]

:kobe:

How does Kyrie stink, when he's one of the best finishers and shooters of all time? He's an elite offensive player, same tier as Curry and Dame.

He's an elite isolation player. Elite offensive player, not so much, given making your teammates better is also part of offense. Teams perform as a unit and, as a result, better, when he is not on the floor. Kyrie could give you 30 on any night and still be ''bad'' offensively.

[ImKobe]

He's an elite isolation player. Elite offensive player, not so much, given making your teammates better is also part of offense. Teams perform as a unit and, as a result, better, when he is not on the floor. Kyrie could give you 30 on any night and still be ''bad'' offensively.

Irving's a good playmaker. Teams have always done a lot worse offensively with him off the court, you can look at the On/Off numbers if you don't believe me.

[CTbasketball92]

He's an elite isolation player. Elite offensive player, not so much, given making your teammates better is also part of offense. Teams perform as a unit and, as a result, better, when he is not on the floor. Kyrie could give you 30 on any night and still be ''bad'' offensively.


This really isn't true and it sounds like a stereotype more than an analysis. He isos much, much less than James Harden, and he isos less than Dame, dominated the ball less than Kemba last year despite being far more efficient and having the justification to shoot more. Kyrie's time of possession with the ball is also notably lower than almost all other elite All-NBA guards.


I remember Bballbreakdown wanted to make a video explanation for what made the Kemba celtics go better in relation to Kyrie, but he scrapped it because he couldnt find anything lol. That's something that's supported by data and for the most part the eye test too. Last year Kyrie was an elite scorer and a borderline elite passer and his usage rate and time of possession weren't that high. Kyrie is not *actually* a ballhog as evidenced by pretty much every number we have available. He might try some bailouts from time to time, but at this point with his 23-25 ppg averages and borderline 50/40/90 splits it's to the point where it's mostly justified, just like Steph's pull-up threes and shots like that.

If you're a great guard it's okay to shoot the ball a lot. He has a high assist rate, he has shown he can play off ball, etc. He played off ball a lot with LeBron. He didn't want to, but he did it. KD will definitely play without the ball more than Kyrie. KD is an off ball kind of player.

[CTbasketball92]

Its because team after team not just continues winning without Kyrie, but sometimes, somehow, actually starts winning at a better clip than they did with him.

Thats what raises concerns to his style.

But generally I agree with you.

Kyrie is an almost elite player, ultimate #2 IMO.

Right. I would say its not nothing to scoff at, but the raptors and the spurs had elite records without Kawhi. I think a big part of it is the Celtics and Spurs have the best organizations and a lot of depth in some cases.


With the 2017-2018 Celtics they were just a very well built team with peak Al Horford and servicable guards. They played at a 55-win pace with Kyrie and maintained when he was gone. They went to the conference finals, but honestly I think there's a chance they get to the finals with Kyrie there. The 2014-2017 Cavs are a special, unique team built only for LeBron to succeed. Those guys I don't think even have spots in the league without LeBron. Spacing is to LeBron what a good wing defender and a solid defensive big man are to Kyrie and a lot of other superstars/regular teams. If you put Kyrie out there with a declining Kevin Love (clearly sub-all-star, defensively useless in modern NBA), Iman Shumpert (terrible for a lot of that time), JR Smith (low IQ, streaky) and Tristan Thompson (average) you're going to face some awful results. I think turn kevin love into current Paul Millsap, Iman Shumpert or JR into Robert covington or even a Jae Crowder the Cavs with just Kyrie would have had an okay record. People were talking about Delly being more important than Kyrie, but in the 2016 Finals Kyrie won them games and I felt like that should have ended threads like these, arguments like those. The years when he was 19-21 to me don't even matter, that team was irredeemably bad and much worse than the team say a Ja Morant plays with.

With the Celtics this year, I think the biggest difference is Gordon Hayward being a 17/5/4 guy on 60 TS% and good defense, Jayson Tatum just improving substantially, Jaylen Brown becoming a top 30 player and Terry Rozier and Morris being gone. Kemba has been in every way less efficient than Kyrie in the same spot and has dominated the ball even more than Kyrie did, so I don't see why the Celtics couldn't achieve the same or better results with Kyrie this year. But a big narrative has been about how much it helps that Kyrie is gone, and I just don't see this as a continuation of that pattern.

As for the bubble, i think this is just an interesting situation. They were already well into the playoffs and the East is very bad at the bottom. They would've lost to the bucks if Giannis played more than 16 minutes (same with Middleton), they beat the KIngs which isn't impressive. I just don't think it means that much. Also I think Spencer/Kyrie/Caris had redundancy issues with play style and that could have caused some problems.


But yeah this isn't to be argumentative I think we essentially agree. I would just say that Kyrie's play style is the same as any other elite scoring guard. I think he could shoot into top 8 or 9 player level if he took more threes. He's one of the five or six best shooters in the league, and off the dribble hes as good as anyone but Steph.

[CelticBaller]

Does the NBA need kyrie?

[Smoke117]

Nets would be a much better team if they had Chris Paul instead of Kylie.

[imdaman99]

Does the NBA need kyrie?

Don't say things like this. Kyrie could one day google his name and see it, it'll hurt his feelings.

I remember when I googled imdaman99 and saw lebron23 insult me back when I didn't appreciate Lebron :(

[Stanley Kobrick]

Don't say things like this. Kyrie could one day google his name and see it, it'll hurt his feelings.

I remember when I googled imdaman99 and saw lebron23 insult me back when I didn't appreciate Lebron :(
:(

[Axe]

Marbury led utterly shit teams to the playoffs and averaged 20/8/3 for his career. He’s actually better than Kyrie
Fyi that's the same marbury who thought and said that lebron was never a true laker at all, as well as he didn't need to continue kobe's legacy.

[Manny98]

Not really we have Dinwiddie,Allen,Harris,LeVert & KD

That's a championship starting lineup right there