LeBron James' level of play in the 2014 NBA Finals [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

08-10-2020, 10:52 AM

Damn, man. Glad you cleared that up. It's been a daily topic around these parts for years. Thanks!

When the sidekick destroys the opponent's best player, people normally think the sidekick team will win.

aka if everyone knew before the 93' Finals that KJ would destroy Jordan, then they'd predict an easy Suns' victory and first ring for Barkley... Similarly, if everyone knew before the 16' Finals that Curry would get destroyed by Kyrie, no one would expect the Warriors to win... People would expect an easy Cavs win except Lebron stunk it up for the first 4 games (24 and 6 TO's).. otherwise, lebron's 36 ppg destroyed the warriors from games 5-7, especially with Kyrie outplaying their best player.. so the Cavs would've won much easier if lebron was getting 36 ppg from the start.. the win is overrated and would've been easier for other stars that don't choke the first 4 games away.

aka if KJ outplayed MJ, no one would say Barkley had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. or if Rik Smits outplayed Shaq in the 00' Finals, no one would say that Miller had the goat accomplishment... or if Kenyon outplayed 03' Duncan, no one would say Kidd had a goat accomplishment... etc, etc, etc

So when Kyrie destroys Curry, no one should say Lebron had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. especially since Lebron's poor play thru 4 games caused the series to go 7.

Ultimately, Lebron nearly choked the series away by playing horribly for 4 games and led 5 arbitrary categories like many other greats have done..

3ball

08-10-2020, 11:09 AM

^^^ TLDR: the Cavs would've been big favorites if we knew in advance that Kyrie would destroy Curry - but that favorite status assumes lebron gets 36 ppg from the start, instead of waiting until games 5-7 (and stinking up 1-4, aka nearly choking series away)... so the win is overrated and would've been easier for other stars that don't choke the first 4 games away.

aka if KJ outplayed MJ, no one would say Barkley had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. or if Rik Smits outplayed Shaq in the 00' Finals, no one would say that Miller had the goat accomplishment... or if Kenyon outplayed 03' Duncan, no one would say Kidd had a goat accomplishment... etc, etc, etc

So when Kyrie destroys Curry, no one should say Lebron had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. especially since Lebron's poor play thru 4 games caused the series to go 7, instead of an easy victory with his sidekick playing so well (and curry choking)

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-10-2020, 12:06 PM

tpols

08-10-2020, 12:07 PM

Not only did kyrie destroy curry that year, he destroyed klay as well. And the dubs still only lost by the thinnest possible sliver of a margin you could possibly lose by ~ 1 shot in a game 7. That is how big the teamwork gap was... A 2nd option outplayed their 1st and 2nd option, and along with other devious circumstances they still barely won.

Vino24

08-10-2020, 12:56 PM

LeBron won with no other all stars. LeBron won with a glorified Marbury

ImKobe

08-10-2020, 01:03 PM

Jordan's not winning in that series either. Miami got backdoor swept and Bron played as good/better than second-3-peat Jordan.

28/7/4 on 57%FG and 68%TS. Overall averaged a 12 BPM. Matter of fact a "12 BPM" would tie '91 Jordan statistically.

What I'm trying to say is, put the crack pipe down.

No he didn't. He had two good games(Games 1-2). Garbage time points :kobe: . Bron couldn't finish Game 1 due to cramps and got outplayed by Kawhi from games 3-5.

aj1987

08-10-2020, 01:13 PM

No he didn't. He had two good games(Games 1-2). Garbage time points :kobe: . Bron couldn't finish Game 1 due to cramps and got outplayed by Kawhi from games 3-5.

No he didn't. LeBron averaged like 3 PPG in the 4th Q's of those Finals. Scored 25 PPG on over 60% in the first 3. I know you Brick turds are a bit slow, but this shouldn't be difficult for even you morons. :cheers:

ImKobe

08-10-2020, 02:00 PM

No he didn't. LeBron averaged like 3 PPG in the 4th Q's of those Finals. Scored 25 PPG on over 60% in the first 3. I know you Brick turds are a bit slow, but this shouldn't be difficult for even you morons. :cheers:

They were down 15-25 points in the 3rd when he cherry-picked layups/open 3s. Spurs build a huge lead and then he adds to his numbers.

Game 4 - he has 9 points on 3/7 shooting in the first half with the Heat down 55 - 36, he starts attacking when they're down 21 points in the quarter, then the Spurs build the lead to 24 points up 73 - 49 with 3 minutes left in the 3rd and he quickly statpads 8 points. 19 of his 28 down 15+ points, not so efficient when the Spurs were building their lead in the first half.

Game 5 - Spurs are up 47 - 40 at the half with Lebron scoring 20 on 6/12FG, Lebron doesn't score a point in the 2nd half before the Spurs go up 65 - 44 with 5 minutes left in the quarter. Then Lebron statpads his 11 points to round out his averages.

I mean, are you really defending the guy who went out of his way to statpad at the end of the 2017 Finals?

Roundball_Rock

08-10-2020, 02:06 PM

ImKobe

08-10-2020, 02:09 PM

One of the most lopsided finals ever is being compared to a 7 game finals. :confusedshrug:

If you go by game score the best players in the series were (in order): LeBron, Kawhi, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bosh, Diaw, Mills. Anyone notice a problem here? :lol

That's Lebron Ball vs. an actual team. Lebron was useless off the ball in that series, just stood at the top of the key, no movement whatsoever.

tpols

08-10-2020, 02:12 PM

One of the most lopsided finals ever is being compared to a 7 game finals. :confusedshrug:

If you go by game score the best players in the series were (in order): LeBron, Kawhi, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bosh, Diaw, Mills. Anyone notice a problem here? :lol

Yup...he killed wades game. Years later Dwayne would still be leading teams to and through the playoffs without him or bosh.

3ball

08-10-2020, 02:12 PM

:rolleyes:

3ball

08-10-2020, 02:16 PM

Jordan's not winning in that series either. Miami got backdoor swept and Bron played as good/better than second-3-peat Jordan.

28/7/4 on 57%FG and 68%TS. Overall averaged a 12 BPM. Matter of fact a "12 BPM" would tie '91 Jordan statistically.

Given the historical facts we now have, we can conclude that your simple statistical breakdown is missing various factors..

The historical facts are that a 12-point increase in Lebron's ppg caused the biggest comeback in Finals history in 2016.. in other words, a series that was LESS winnable than the 2014 Finals, was infact won by a 12-point increase in Lebron's scoring average.

So we can safely conclude that a similar 12 point increase in Lebron's scoring average would've won the 14' Finals, which was considered far more winnable than the 1-3 deficit Lebron overcame in 16' by increasing his scoring

What I'm trying to say is, put the crack pipe down.

you're the one on crack, or more likely just ignorant, if you think that 14' lebron played equal to 91' MJ in the Finals because of their equal BPM"s..

Not all 28 ppg are the same - lebron gets 28 by reducing teammates more than MJ did - this is statistical fact.. teammates weren't as close to their career highs (capacity) alongside lebron... Jordan's points were also more productive because they yielded teammate assists, aka the capacity for ball movement/advanced strategy/system.. this is what actually BEATS opponents and ultimately wears them down/reduces their capacity for output

Ultimately, Jordan's superior all-round ability - assisted and unassisted skillsets - allowed better fit with teammates so they played closer to capacity, while also allowing greater capacity for strategy, aka 6/6

What I'm trying to say is, put the crack pipe down.

Jordan reduced teammates less and allowed greater capacity for strategy, while actually scoring much MORE than Lebron.

BJ Armstrong said that 2nd three-peat MJ only did things necessary to win, so most of his points were the more important possessions where a bucket was needed to keep pace or affect momentum - aka buckets that teammates were less likely to hit... That's why MJ is considered the goat clutch - he was hitting big buckets THROUGHOUT THE GAME..

His control over games allowed him to destroy any team that wasn't distinctly more talented - he wasn't capable of getting a 3-1 deficit against an opposing cast that was getting outplayed drastically (Kyrie outplaying Curry)

Roundball_Rock

08-10-2020, 02:17 PM

"LeBron ball" is the excuse. Didn't they win in 12' and 13'? :confusedshrug:

Wade didn't show up but neither did Bosh.

I agree LeBron had his problems. If you want to be GOAT, you can't get locked down the way he did by Kawhi. Instead of saying that you all are acting as if Miami had a shot. They were vastly inferior. The same team added Whiteside, Dragic, Deng the next year and missed the playoffs altogether after half of ISH swore they would be contenders with two "superstars" in a "weak East" (apparently the east was weak for Miami--but not Indiana per ISH's Team Jordan :oldlol: ). The excuse is Bosh's health--but Dragic got there, Whiteside emerged around the same time frame and the team improved without Bosh.

insidious301

08-10-2020, 02:26 PM

Why does 3ball keep deleting his posts? He sounds flustered trying to get a reply in. Haha. The Heat lost by a record margin so the emphasis on LeBron is silly. Far too many posters using team achievements to prop up/down players. So Roundball is correct in pointing out the individual scoring disparity.

Akeem34TheDream

08-10-2020, 02:34 PM

2014 Spurs> 2016 Warriors

3ball

08-10-2020, 03:22 PM

you all are acting as if Miami had a shot. They were vastly inferior.

Wade and Lebron had just crushed the ECF against the Pacers and were confident heading into the 14' Finals - they even vowed revenge on Duncan for saying he would win right before the series began

Vegas and the media had the series at even.. NO ONE thought the Spurs were way better or that Miami had no chance - again, it was evenly split on both sides..

like you said, Miami had just beaten them the previous year... they shocked everyone by getting destroyed.. even odds + record loss = underachievement

"LeBron ball" is the excuse. Didn't they win in 13'? :confusedshrug:

^^^ 1 of 9 Finals that exposed lebron-ball as much as any series

Btw, Wade averaged prime Pippen stats from the 13' Finals thru the 14' ECF (21/5/5) - he simply had 1 bad series in the 14' Finals, but was back to prime Pippen stats in 15' and 16' (a playoff star again in 16').

Wade's one-off series occurred because the Spurs' primary strategy was to exploit Wade's poor fit with Lebron, aka force Wade to play the "shooter" role - they fully succeeded in 2014, thus shutting Wade down similar to Pippen from 96-98', or 93' (45% true shooting and 97 ortg in 93' Finals)

I agree LeBron had his problems. If you want to be GOAT, you can't get locked down the way he did by Kawhi.

The goat can't be taught a basketball lesson in his prime : he can't be taught a superior way to play - the goat must employ/know the best brand of his era

The same team added Whiteside, Dragic, Deng the next year and missed the playoffs altogether after half of ISH swore they would be contenders with two "superstars" in a "weak East"

Wade/Bosh missed 40 games in 2015 and the Heat missed playoffs by only 1/2 game.. so they obviously make it if they were healthy.

Both Wade/Bosh remained all-stars in 15' and 16', with Wade being a playoff star again in 16'

aj1987

08-10-2020, 03:36 PM

They were down 15-25 points in the 3rd when he cherry-picked layups/open 3s. Spurs build a huge lead and then he adds to his numbers.
WTF are you babbling about, idiot? I'm 100% sure that you haven't seen a single minute of the 2014 Finals.

Game 3 - The Spurs had a 11 point lead going into the 4th Q.

Game 4 - Was a total blowout and LeBron didn't even score in the 4th Q (his stats would've been better if he actually didn't play the 4th). In fact, Kawhi had more point that LeBron after the Spurs started blowing out the Heat.

Game 5 - It was a 15 point game going into the 4th and LeBron had 4 points on 50% in that period. Literally no team ever gives up after 3 Q's, while trailing by 15.

Game 4 - he has 9 points on 3/7 shooting in the first half with the Heat down 55 - 36, he starts attacking when they're down 21 points in the quarter, then the Spurs build the lead to 24 points up 73 - 49 with 3 minutes left in the 3rd and he quickly statpads 8 points. 19 of his 28 down 15+ points, not so efficient when the Spurs were building their lead in the first half.
So, wait. You think the Heat should've called it game with a quarter and a half of basketball left, while being down 15+? There's not a single team in the history of the sport which would've done that. Miami's problem that series was defense, and not offense. LeBron could've gone off for 40 and they still would've lost. The Heat outside LeBron were straight trash.

LeBron had 19 points in that 3rd quarter. Miami as a team had 21. The team outside LeBron shot 1-9 and scored 2 points.

Game 5 - Spurs are up 47 - 40 at the half with Lebron scoring 20 on 6/12FG, Lebron doesn't score a point in the 2nd half before the Spurs go up 65 - 44 with 5 minutes left in the quarter. Then Lebron statpads his 11 points to round out his averages.
From a previous post of mine:

Game 5 - So, according to you, LeBron was stat padding when he was trying to score midway through the 3rd with the Heat down 15, but he should’ve scored more with the Heat down 19 going into the 4th? You really do not understand what the term stat padding means, do you? Anyways, TP completely wrecked the Heat in the 4th Q that game. The Heat were never able to get closer than 16 and couldn’t get a stop defensively.

I mean, are you really defending the guy who went out of his way to statpad at the end of the 2017 Finals?
If you really want to know the definition of statpadding, go watch some of your boy's games. Dude was the epitome of a statpadder. Although, more often than not, he failed miserably and hence 6/24 and 29% and 30% shooting in the 4th Q's of the '09 and '10 Finals.

3ball

08-10-2020, 03:37 PM

2014 Spurs> 2016 Warriors

^^^ Not when the Warriors were up 3-1 - at that point, Lebron's chances of winning were far worse than 2014

Yet that's the juncture (down 3-1) when his ppg increased by 12 points.. everything else stayed the same except the increase in ppg and slashing of turnovers - this was enough to execute the biggest comeback ever, so a similar 12 point increase in ppg would've worked in 2014 too

Btw, if KJ outplayed MJ in thr 93' Finals, no one would say Barkley had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. or if Rik Smits outplayed Shaq in 00', no one would say that Miller had the goat accomplishment... or if Kenyon outplayed 03' Duncan, no one would say Kidd had a goat accomplishment... etc, etc, etc

So when Kyrie destroys Curry, no one should say Lebron had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. especially since Lebron's poor play thru 4 games caused the series to go 7, instead of an easy victory with his sidekick playing so well (and curry choking)

Smoke117

08-10-2020, 03:40 PM

1-9

3ball

08-10-2020, 03:48 PM

1-9

thread cliffs

when the Warriors were up 3-1, Lebron's chances of winning were far worse than 2014

Yet that's the juncture (down 3-1) when lebron's ppg increased by 12 points (everything else stayed the same) - since the ppg increase was enough to execute the biggest comeback ever, we can assume a similar increase would've worked in 2014 too

Btw, if KJ outplayed MJ in thr 93' Finals, no one would say Barkley had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. or if Rik Smits outplayed Shaq in 00', no one would say that Miller had the goat accomplishment... or if Kenyon outplayed 03' Duncan, no one would say Kidd had a goat accomplishment... etc, etc, etc

So when Kyrie destroys Curry, no one should say Lebron had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. especially since Lebron's poor play thru 4 games caused the series to go 7, instead of an easy victory with his sidekick playing so well (and curry choking)

Gray GOAT

08-10-2020, 03:51 PM

I have to admit, that's a really clever topic title by OP.

3ball

08-10-2020, 03:56 PM

I have to admit, that's a really clever topic title by OP.

The mods always change the title to bring me down when I have a great thread topic and insight

So i'm the Trump of this forum.. aka contrary to mainstream media groupthink and hated on by the fake mods

But the facts remain - when the Warriors were up 3-1, Lebron's chances of winning were far worse than 2014

Yet that's the juncture (down 3-1) when lebron's ppg increased by 12 points (everything else stayed the same) - since the ppg increase was enough to execute the biggest comeback ever, we can assume a similar increase would've worked in 2014 too

RRR3

08-10-2020, 04:05 PM

The mods always change the title to bring me down when I have a great thread topic and insight

So i'm the Trump of this forum.. aka contrary to mainstream media groupthink and hated on by the fake mods

But the facts remain - when the Warriors were up 3-1, Lebron's chances of winning were far worse than 2014

Yet that's the juncture (down 3-1) when lebron's ppg increased by 12 points (everything else stayed the same) - since the ppg increase was enough to execute the biggest comeback ever, we can assume a similar increase would've worked in 2014 too
You’re the “Trump of the forum” in that you’re an arrogant liar, but at least Trump is funny and makes good points sometimes.

Shogon

08-10-2020, 04:09 PM

Detailing my argument with the voices in my head.

:roll::roll:

HBK_Kliq_2

08-10-2020, 04:22 PM

3ball

08-10-2020, 04:32 PM

I actually like the whole Irving outplayed Curry argument. The only flaw with it, wasn't LeBron the one locking up Curry? There's highlights of him shutting Curry down. If we can get the data for Curry's scoring with LeBron guarding him and not guarding him, we can solve this theory. If not, Curry did just flat out choke.

I mean Draymond locked up Cavs offense in game 7, all curry/klay had to do was play decent to win and they failed.

It's irrelevant who locked up curry

The only thing that matters is that the Cavs' 2nd option easily out-produced the warriors' 1st option.. so that puts things in perspective - if KJ outplayed MJ in thr 93' Finals, no one would say Barkley had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. or if Rik Smits outplayed Shaq in 00', no one would say that Miller had the goat accomplishment... or if Kenyon outplayed 03' Duncan, no one would say Kidd had a goat accomplishment... etc, etc, etc

So when Kyrie destroys Curry, no one should say Lebron had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. especially since Lebron's poor play thru 4 games caused the series to go 7, instead of an easy victory with his sidekick playing so well (and curry choking)

I actually like the whole Irving outplayed Curry argument. The only flaw with it, wasn't LeBron the one locking up Curry? There's highlights of him shutting Curry down. If we can get the data for Curry's scoring with LeBron guarding him and not guarding him, we can solve this theory. If not, Curry did just flat out choke.

I mean Draymond locked up Cavs offense in game 7, all curry/klay had to do was play decent to win and they failed.
Ultimately, when the Warriors were up 3-1, Lebron's chances of winning were far worse than 2014

Yet that's the juncture (down 3-1) when lebron's ppg increased by 12 points (everything else stayed the same) - since the ppg increase was enough to execute the biggest comeback ever, we can assume a similar increase would've worked in 2014 too

ArbitraryWater

08-10-2020, 04:35 PM

They were down 15-25 points in the 3rd when he cherry-picked layups/open 3s. Spurs build a huge lead and then he adds to his numbers.

Game 4 - he has 9 points on 3/7 shooting in the first half with the Heat down 55 - 36, he starts attacking when they're down 21 points in the quarter, then the Spurs build the lead to 24 points up 73 - 49 with 3 minutes left in the 3rd and he quickly statpads 8 points. 19 of his 28 down 15+ points, not so efficient when the Spurs were building their lead in the first half.

Game 5 - Spurs are up 47 - 40 at the half with Lebron scoring 20 on 6/12FG, Lebron doesn't score a point in the 2nd half before the Spurs go up 65 - 44 with 5 minutes left in the quarter. Then Lebron statpads his 11 points to round out his averages.

I mean, are you really defending the guy who went out of his way to statpad at the end of the 2017 Finals?

Why would he have been able to cherry pick open 3‘s and layups?

You just make shit up that would make no sense from a tactical standpoint for the Spurs.

And you‘re saying if LeBron had not scored 11 points in game 5, you wouldn‘t have crushed him for staying scoreless in the second half?

Exactly. So don‘t be an idiot. You‘re crucifying him for a 7 minute stretch of being scoreless. Seven minutes.

Do you know how often Kobe was scoreless that long in the finals? All the time.

And by the way, your stats are off.

LeBron scored more than 20 in the first half, on better percentages, and all it was good for was a 7 pt lead due to his teammates ineptness.

No mention of his 21 pt 3rd quarter in game 4 while his teammates went 1/10, that was statpadding already, right?

In game 4 his first half output is the issue, 3rd quarter scoring is irrelevant.

In game 5 you flip the criteria and its the other way around.

You‘re the most contradicting and worthless poster ever when it comes to integrity and honesty.

Its legit a character flaw you need to solve.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-10-2020, 04:38 PM

It's irrelevant who locked up curry

The only thing that matters is that the Cavs' 2nd option easily out-produced the warriors' 1st option.. so that puts things in perspective - if KJ outplayed MJ in thr 93' Finals, no one would say Barkley had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. or if Rik Smits outplayed Shaq in 00', no one would say that Miller had the goat accomplishment... or if Kenyon outplayed 03' Duncan, no one would say Kidd had a goat accomplishment... etc, etc, etc

So when Kyrie destroys Curry, no one should say Lebron had the goat accomplishment by winning that series.. especially since Lebron's poor play thru 4 games caused the series to go 7, instead of an easy victory with his sidekick playing so well (and curry choking)

Ultimately, when the Warriors were up 3-1, Lebron's chances of winning were far worse than 2014

Yet that's the juncture (down 3-1) when lebron's ppg increased by 12 points (everything else stayed the same) - since the ppg increase was enough to execute the biggest comeback ever, we can assume a similar increase would've worked in 2014 too

I agree about 2014, the problem is Kawhi is his daddy. LeBron loves to play bully ball and Kawhi's the one guy you just can't bully. Its like running into a brick wall.

2014 series was tied 1-1 and for the 3 straight win stretch: kawhi averaged 24PPG, while Duncan averaged 12PPG

ImJosh

08-10-2020, 04:39 PM

OP belongs in a mental asylum

Roundball_Rock

08-10-2020, 04:41 PM

3ball

08-10-2020, 04:41 PM

OP belongs in a mental asylum

when the Warriors were up 3-1, Lebron's chances of winning were far worse than 2014

Yet that's the juncture (down 3-1) when lebron's ppg increased by 12 points (everything else stayed the same) - the Cavs won three straight games from that point forward

Since the ppg increase was enough to execute the biggest comeback ever, we can assume a similar increase would've worked in 2014 too.. unfortunately, lebron was passive with only 17 shot attempts per game and gave up entirely in game 3

tpols

08-10-2020, 04:45 PM

they even vowed revenge on Duncan for saying he would win right before the series began

Jason Terry and Tim Duncan both guaranteed a ring before the series. Jason Terry literally got the championship trophy tattoo'ed on his arm that year.

Can you imagine any player, nevertheless a borderline all star types, guarantee'ing a championship against Michael Jordan right before a series? The carnage and humiliation that would ensue?

It would be like the Portland situation x1000.

https://media.tenor.com/images/295563f13ef9e4100492e4bbf4467890/tenor.gif

RRR3

08-10-2020, 05:11 PM

https://im6.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-6-a0461a00d473.gif

Roundball_Rock

08-10-2020, 05:18 PM

Ewing became a joke for his numerous "guarantees."

SATAN

08-10-2020, 05:26 PM

1-9

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:roll: :bowdown:

3ball

08-10-2020, 06:51 PM

.
The Known Facts

24 ppg = 3-1 deficit vs Warriors

36 ppg = 3-0 vs Warriors (games 5-7)

28 ppg = 4-1 loss vs 14' Spurs

40 ppg = ???? vs 14' Spurs

:confusedshrug:.. Fill in for the bolded above

40 ppg beats the 14' Spurs easily (12 more), since a similar scoring increase allowed a greater longshot victory, aka the biggest comeback in Finals history - Lebron's 12 ppg increase in Games 5-7 allowed a 3-1 comeback, so a similar increase would've easily won the 14' Finals

Of course, if Lebron was dropping 40 on the Spurs, the Spurs wouldn't be hot offensively because they'd be worn down and more disoriented from defending a greater attack (beast 40 ppg lebron)

HBK_Kliq_2

08-10-2020, 07:11 PM

3ball

08-10-2020, 07:36 PM

That should tell you that 2014 spurs > 2016 warriors and kawhi > curry. In 2014 kawhi was only 22 years old a rookie technically speaking if he went to college 4 years. So rookie Kawhi outplayed LeBron in 2014 finals and rookie Kawhi gave LeBron more problems then peak Curry did.

Lol 22-year kawhi being better than MVP Curry.. that means 3ball wins the argument

Ultimately, winning the 14' Finals was much more likely than overcoming a 3-1 deficit

but a 12 ppg increase was enough to overcome 3-1, so it could've overcome the 14' Spurs too

So the fill-in-the-blanked posed earlier shows that lebron is obviously totally different player when he averages 12 ppg more - enough to lead the biggest comeback in Finals history from 3-1 deficit - nothing was less likely than that, so a similar increase in ppg would've won the 14' Finals too (40 ppg lebron)

red1

08-10-2020, 07:37 PM

legendary modding :roll:

3ball

08-10-2020, 07:42 PM

legendary modding :roll:

What changed in lebron's stats that allowed the comeback from 3-1?

I rest my case

His scoring increased by 12 ppg... That's it..

So if that was enough to comeback from 3-1 (biggest comeback and longest odds ever), then it would be enough to win the 14' Finals (40 ppg lebron).. MJ averaged 41 in a slower pace series

And remember, if Lebron was dropping 40 on the Spurs, the Spurs wouldn't be hot offensively because they'd be worn down and more disoriented from defending a greater attack (beast 40 ppg lebron)

Vino24

08-10-2020, 07:49 PM

LeBron is the only player to beat a 3-star team with a 2-star team

red1

08-10-2020, 07:53 PM

What changed in lebron's stats that allowed the comeback from 3-1?

I rest my case

His scoring increased by 12 ppg... That's it..

So if that was enough to comeback from 3-1 (biggest comeback and longest odds ever), then it would be enough to win the 14' Finals (40 ppg lebron).. MJ averaged 41 in a slower pace series

And remember, if Lebron was dropping 40 on the Spurs, the Spurs wouldn't be hot offensively because they'd be worn down and more disoriented from defending a greater attack (beast 40 ppg lebron)

dude you lost all credibility so many times that I dont even know why you post. just start a michael jordan fan blog on the main website or something.

I still think to this day that your worst take is saying that mo williams is better than pippen.

I think thats even more egregious than you saying you dunked on zbo 3 times in one pick-up game :roll:

Vino24

08-10-2020, 07:53 PM

red1

08-10-2020, 07:55 PM

FromDowntown

08-10-2020, 07:57 PM

1-9

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:roll: :lol

3ball

08-10-2020, 08:11 PM

Op is always arguing about LeBron’s GOAT help. Now he’s arguing that if LeBron just averaged 40ppg it would solve everything. Either LeBron had GOAT help and didn’t have to average 40ppg or LeBron had a massive talent disadvantage that required him to average 40ppg. Can’t have both op

The Spurs had Wade/Lebron figured out and Wade was the casualty as the guy playing off-ball more often.. they forced wade into his weakness (spot-up shooting), by coming off him to help on lebron's drives, aka forcing lebron to hit him for spot-ups..

I'm not making this up - it's well-documented.. the lack of fit between Wade/Lebron is how the Spurs slowed down the Heat attack.. the Heat couldn't respond by putting the ball in Wade's hands because then Lebron would suffer as the weak spot-up shooter - Lebron's skill deficit (weak shooting and no assisted skillset or off-ball) created this lack of fit and exploitability, whereas the off-ball Jordan fit perfectly with Wade.. Jordan fit great with spotty shooters/good defenders like Pip, Wade, or Hughes

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-10-2020, 09:00 PM

Given the historical facts we now have, we can conclude that your simple statistical breakdown is missing various factors..

The historical facts are that a 12-point increase in Lebron's ppg caused the biggest comeback in Finals history in 2016.. in other words, a series that was LESS winnable than the 2014 Finals, was infact won by a 12-point increase in Lebron's scoring average.

So we can safely conclude that a similar 12 point increase in Lebron's scoring average would've won the 14' Finals, which was considered far more winnable than the 1-3 deficit Lebron overcame in 16' by increasing his scoring

Jordan reduced teammates less and allowed greater capacity for strategy, while actually scoring much MORE than Lebron.

BJ Armstrong said that 2nd three-peat MJ only did things necessary to win, so most of his points were the more important possessions where a bucket was needed to keep pace or affect momentum - aka buckets that teammates were less likely to hit... That's why MJ is considered the goat clutch - he was hitting big buckets THROUGHOUT THE GAME..

The problem relying on only "PPG" is that its primitive and flat analysis. We're beyond that meta now.

But if we did use your elementary measure, Jordan in the finals averaged over 36 a game once. And never in the second 3-peat like I mentioned. We can't expect Bron to do that TWICE when Jordan only did it one time. The Spurs were simply a better team and the numbers are what they are.

Back to the superior data for a second.

BPM captures all around box-score play, not just points. It also adjusts for possessions. And what that tells you is Bron matched '91 Jordan and his impact, statistically. The conclusion here is we cant just blame Bron, because his play would be ‘ELITE’ per the objective data. Now that I educated you with the figures, your dated arguments got an upgrade. Thank me later.

No he didn't. He had two good games (Games 1-2). Garbage time points. Bron couldn't finish Game 1 due to cramps and got outplayed by Kawhi from games 3-5.

You dont "statpad" scoring most your points before the 4th quarter. Applying your stupidity then all players statpad.

Shooter

08-10-2020, 09:14 PM

1-9

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:roll: :roll:

Gold :lol

Roundball_Rock

08-10-2020, 09:23 PM

You dont "statpad" scoring most your points before the 4th quarter. Applying your stupidity then all players statpad.

:lol

BJ Armstrong said that 2nd three-peat MJ

You know BJ was on the first three-peat teams, not the second, right? I know you thought Horace was on all six so wanted to check.

It is ironic you cite BJ in this context. A major reason the Bulls let him go is he was disgruntled with his dramatically reduced role with MJ back (his usage went from 20.2% to 14.6%--scrub usage).

Shooter

08-10-2020, 09:40 PM

:lol

You know BJ was on the first three-peat teams, not the second, right? I know you thought Horace was on all six so wanted to check.

It is ironic you cite BJ in this context. A major reason the Bulls let him go is he was disgruntled with his dramatically reduced role with MJ back (his usage went from 20.2% to 14.6%--scrub usage).

that 2ball edit :lol

Roundball Rockin 2ball's shit

kawhileonard2

08-10-2020, 09:50 PM

Jordan's not winning in that series either. Miami got backdoor swept and Bron played as good/better than second-3-peat Jordan.

28/7/4 on 57%FG and 68%TS. Overall averaged a 12 BPM. Matter of fact a "12 BPM" would tie '91 Jordan statistically.

What I'm trying to say is, put the crack pipe down.

Spurs went 7 in round 1 to the Mavs who were the 8th seed.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-10-2020, 10:01 PM

Spurs went 7 in round 1 to the Mavs who were the 8th seed.

Spurs didn't pass it to goat Kawhi yet, so they were struggling. Your point still stands though.

GimmeThat

08-10-2020, 10:43 PM

Thru 4 games of the 2016 Finals, lebron averaged 24 ppg with 6 TO's - the series was "unwinnable" just like the 14' Finals...

But then he added 12 points to his average for the last 3 games, which increased his average to 36 with 3 TO's (Jordan's averages in 91-93' Finals) - this scoring increase (rebs and assists remained the same) was sufficient to turn around a previously "unwinnable" series, so he has no excuse in 2014.

Of course, we already know that poor fits with Wade and Bosh prevented those Heat teams from being as good as the Spurs (and their core of fossils).

how exactly do you win games by 15, 14, and 4 by needing a boost in scoring of a 12 point average, not to mention the team winning by 30 in game 3 without your said, 12 point boost.

to save you the trouble, he posted 27/11/11 in game 7, 3 points more than the 24 average, while putting up 2 additional assists

at best, your argument only stands for Lebron James never considered a series to be unwinnable after a 1-3 deficit. while you're constantly thinking about getting gang banged by your team when put in that situation.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-10-2020, 10:48 PM

Spurs went 7 in round 1 to the Mavs who were the 8th seed.

What does that mean? They're not playing Jordan 1 on 1 :oldlol:

:lol

Incredible logic. Like, who hasn't statpadded then? :confusedshrug:

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 12:32 AM

AirBonner

08-11-2020, 12:37 AM

It is funny how 2ball thinks there were 12 points freely available for LeBron that would get tacked onto the existing 2014 Miami totals. That's not how it works. If LeBron tried to score 12 more points he would need to take at least 9-10 more shots (and probably a lot more given the trouble Kawhi was giving him). Those don't come from nowhere. They come at the expense of shots that went to other teams. They aren't a free extra 10 FGA awarded to Miami.

Bingo. If LeBron hi jacked the offense he could be 1-9 like Ordan

TheCorporation

08-11-2020, 12:39 AM

It is funny how 2ball thinks there were 12 points freely available for LeBron that would get tacked onto the existing 2014 Miami totals. That's not how it works. If LeBron tried to score 12 more points he would need to take at least 9-10 more shots (and probably a lot more given the trouble Kawhi was giving him). Those don't come from nowhere. They come at the expense of shots that went to other teams. They aren't a free extra 10 FGA awarded to Miami.

3ball never understood the term "limited # of possessions" He thinks everyone magically takes 28 shots per game like MJ :lol And then of course complains out his #2 option scoring, meanwhile forgetting that opposition #2s were readily outscored by MJ's very own #2 option.

#Dontmakesense

3ball

08-11-2020, 10:24 AM

opposition #2s were readily outscored by MJ's very own #2 option.

Pippen's scoring was either exceeded by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer, or matched with far better efficiency (aka outplayed) in 42% of his playoff series, which are each shown below (33% during championship years or Finals):

................................. PPG.. FG%.. TS.. ORTG

88' Pippen 1st Rd... 10.6.. 47.1.. 49.4.... 96
88' Harper 1st Rd... 17.6.. 47.6.. 50.7.. 100

88' Pippen. 2nd Rd..... 9.4.. 45.8.. 48.5.... 85
88' Dantley 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 50.0.. 58.9.. 117

89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15.0.. 39.7.. 51.0.. 102
89' Nance. 1st Rd... 19.4.. 55.1.. 58.4.. 117

89' Pippen' ECF..... 9.7.. 40.4.. 45.8.... 94
89' Aguirre ECF... 13.3.. 55.8.. 59.8.. 120

90' Pippen ECF..... 16.6.. 42.6.. 52.0.. 102
90' Thomas ECF... 17.6.. 39.6.. 51.5.. 108

92' Pippen 2nd Rd... 16.0.. 40.2.. 49.3.. 106
92' X-Man. 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 49.6.. 52.5.. 106

93' Pippen' 1st Rd... 15.3.. 42.2.. 45.3.. 100
93' K Willis 1st Rd... 16.7.. 45.7.. 58.9.. 117

94' Pippen 2nd Rd... 21.7.. 40.5.. 51.0.. 103
94' Ewing' 2nd Rd.... 22.9.. 53.0.. 58.1.. 113

95' S Pippen 1st Rd... 16.0.. 51.0.. 60.0.. 122 (3rd option behind kukoc)
95' Johnson' 1st Rd... 20.0.. 47.7.. 54.6.. 119

96' Pippen' 2nd Rd... 15.6.. 33.0.. 41.6.. 100
96' Oakley. 2nd Rd... 13.2.. 50.0.. 57.7.... 99

96' Pippen' ECF.. 18.5.. 45.3.. 50.8.. 120
96' Penny. ECF... 25.5.. 46.9.. 55.1.. 108

96' Pippen. Finals... 15.7.. 34.3.. 42.9.. 106
96' S Kemp Finals... 23.3.. 55.1.. 63.3.. 117

97' Pippen. 1st Rd'... 16.7.. 38.6.. 49.3.. 106
97' Howard 1st Rd... 18.7.. 45.3.. 58.6.. 123

97' S Pippen Finals... 20.0.. 3.5 apg.. 42.2.. 54.1.. 101.. 4 clutch pts
97' Stockton Finals... 15.0.. 8.8 apg.. 50.0.. 61.1.. 111.. 12 clutch pts

98' Pippen. ECF... 16.6.. 39.2.. 46.3.. 102
98' R Smits ECF... 16.3.. 55.4.. 62.6.. 119

93' Pippen Finals.... 21.2.. 43.9.. 45.9.... 97
93' Majerle Finals... 17.2.. 42.0.. 58.7.. 128

TLDR - Pippen was outplayed by the opposing 2nd option in 15 of 36 series (42%).. or 8 of 24 during the championship years (33%)... or 2 of 6 Finals (33%).

Btw, the 93' Finals, 95' 2nd Round and 97' ECF weren't included in the final tally even though Pippen was outplayed in those series as well

Ultimately, only the goat can win 6 rings with their 2nd option outplayed at least 1/3 of the time and no 3rd option (outplayed nearly every time)

3ball never understood the term "limited # of possessions" He thinks everyone magically takes 28 shots per game like MJ :lol And then of course complains out his #2 option scoring, meanwhile forgetting that

Teams and scorers control pace and possessions

Saying there's limited possessions is like saying a boxing match has limited punches

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 10:34 AM

3ball never understood the term "limited # of possessions" He thinks everyone magically takes 28 shots per game like MJ And then of course complains out his #2 option scoring, meanwhile forgetting that opposition #2s were readily outscored by MJ's very own #2 option.

:lol

:oldlol: at the desperation in his next post. He is cherry picking 3rd or 4th options (e.g., Harper, Oakley instead of Daughtery and Starks) because he knows the comparison of 2nd option to 2nd option is embarrassing to his agenda. Anyone who watched back then knows Pippen, Daughtery, Mourning, Johnson and Penny were the only 20 PPG type second options on contenders in the 90's and Penny lasted a whole two years. Only 2ball and his dishonest followers try to act like there were all these 25-30 PPG scoring second options then in an era where first options rarely got past 25. Most second options were like Starks, Porter, Stockton, Smits, Elliott, Otis Thorpe, etc.

Just look at the finals for example. Worthy 19, Porter 16, Johnson 17, Kemp 23, Stockton 15, Stockton 10 (9.7). One guys clears 20. The same is true for the ECF in the title years. Only Penny cleared 20. Meanwhile Pippen gets attacked for regularly scoring 20 PPG. :lol

You could do what he did in his last past with anyone. If you cherry picked the highest scorer in any series and compared to LeBron's sidekicks, Kobe's, etc. you would get a much bigger share of series where another player on the other team outscored them. They already bat 40-50% (not 80-90% like Pippen :bowdown: ). I wonder how much worse it would be if you factor in series where the 3rd or 4th option outscored them.

It also is amusing he doesn't list stuff like Pippen outscoring the Cavs' #1 option (Price) three years in a row. :lol

GrayGoat

08-11-2020, 11:10 AM

3ball

08-11-2020, 12:16 PM

:lol

:oldlol: at the desperation in his next post. He is cherry picking 3rd or 4th options (e.g., Harper, Oakley instead of Daughtery and Starks) because he knows the comparison of 2nd option to 2nd option is embarrassing to his agenda. Anyone who watched back then knows Pippen, Daughtery, Mourning, Johnson and Penny were the only 20 PPG type second options on contenders in the 90's and Penny lasted a whole two years. Only 2ball and his dishonest followers try to act like there were all these 25-30 PPG scoring second options then in an era where first options rarely got past 25. Most second options were like Starks, Porter, Stockton, Smits, Elliott, Otis Thorpe, etc.

Just look at the finals for example. Worthy 19, Porter 16, Johnson 17, Kemp 23, Stockton 15, Stockton 10 (9.7). One guys clears 20. The same is true for the ECF in the title years. Only Penny cleared 20. Meanwhile Pippen gets attacked for regularly scoring 20 PPG. :lol

You could do what he did in his last past with anyone. If you cherry picked the highest scorer in any series and compared to LeBron's sidekicks, Kobe's, etc. you would get a much bigger share of series where another player on the other team outscored them. They already bat 40-50% (not 80-90% like Pippen :bowdown: ). I wonder how much worse it would be if you factor in series where the 3rd or 4th option outscored them.

It also is amusing he doesn't list stuff like Pippen outscoring the Cavs' #1 option (Price) three years in a row. :lol

You're lying.

My list shows Pippen vs 2nd options.. sometimes 3rd and 4th options like Oakley outplayed Pippen, so they're listed too.. that HELPS my argument dumbass.

Accept facts - if one player scores about the same as another player, but with far better efficiency, then they're playing better... so when you look at ppg and efficiency, Pippen was outplayed by 2nd options (or worse) in 1/3 of the series during the championship years - these series are all listed above, and it's a CONSERVATIVE list that omits numerous series where Pippen was arguably outplayed (97' ECF, 95' ECSF, 93' Finals, etc)

Regarding Pippen as a 20 ppg scorer - he only did that a few seasons too, especially in the playoffs, and at far worse efficiency than anyone else getting 20..

Ultimately, your posts regarding 2nd options say that 98' Pippen outplayed Smits in the ECF by getting 16.6 ppg vs 16.3 for Smits... my logic includes efficiency, which reveals that Pippen shot 39% vs 55% for Smits, so Smits infact destroyed Pippen...

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 12:21 PM

On the one hand Pippen is a scrub for scoring 20; on the other MJ played in the toughest era ever against the toughest comp where the other sidekicks were scoring an average of 17 (16 for perimeter sidekicks) in their finals/ECF appearances during those title runs. The averages obscure Stockton going 10, 15 or Dumars going 13 or Starks 15 etc. :lol

Here is how cherry picking works.

1991 Bulls vs. Knicks

Jordan 29
Pippen 20
Vandeweghe 17.0
Ewing 16.7

Ewing outscored by not one but two sidekicks in the same series.

2013 Bulls vs. Heat

LeBron 24
Butler 16
Robinson 15
Boozer 15
Bosh 14
Wade 13

Wade outscored by role players like 13' Butler, Robinson. Dun, dun, dun!

1996 Jazz vs. Sonics

Malone 27
Payton 21
Hornacek 20
Kemp 20
Schrempf 14
Perkins 12
Russell 11
Hawkins 11
Stockton 10 (9.9)

Stockton--the second best "sidekick" of the 90's. 9.9 in 38 MPG as he got decimated in the WCF by the opposing PG for the second time in three WCF's (Porter embarrassed him in 92'). Can you imagine if Pippen did what Stockton did in the 92', 96' WCF or in the finals?

We could go on and on but cherry picking is useless. Apples to apples data speaks for itself and it is here (first options listed in parentheses):

1991 ECF: Pippen 22, Dumars 13 (Isiah 17)
1991 Finals: Pippen 21, Worthy 19 (Magic 19)
1992 1R: Pippen 24, Seiklay 21 (Rice 19)
1992 ECSF: Pippen 16, McDaniel 19
1992 ECF: Pippen 20, Daughtery 18 (Price 19)
1992 Finals: Pippen 21, Porter 16 (Drexler 25)
1993 1R: Pippen 15, Willis 17
1993 ECSF: Pippen 18, Daughtery 17 (Price 14)
1993 ECF: Pippen 23, Starks 15 (Ewing 26)
1993 Finals: Pippen 21, Johnson 17
1996 1R: Pippen 20, Mourning 18 (Hardaway 18)
1996 ECSF: Pippen 16, Starks 13
1996 ECF: Pippen 19, Penny 26
1996 Finals: Pippen 16, Kemp 23
1997 1R: Pippen 17, Howard 19 (Webber 16)
1997 ECSF: Pippen 22, Laettner 16 (Smith 18)
1997 ECF: Pippen (injured) 17, Mourning 16; Pippen (healthy) 21
1997 Finals: Pippen 20, Stockton 15 (Malone 24)
1998 1R: Pippen 18, Kittles 16 (Van Horn* 13)
1998 ECSF: Pippen 18, Mason 13
1998 ECF: Pippen 17, Smits 16 (Miller 17)
1998 Finals: Pippen (injured) 16, Stockton 10; Pippen (healthy) 20

Series after series he outscores the other #2 option--in many of them he exceeds, matches or is close to the opposing #1 option.

*Cassell injured for the playoffs

3ball

08-11-2020, 12:28 PM

^^^ your data excludes efficiency

most series where Pippen averaged 1-2 points more than the opponent, his efficiency was much worse, and he was therefore outplayed..

pippen averaged 16.6 on 39%, which was inferior to 16.3 on 55% for Smits in 98' ECF.

^^^ Pippen's scoring was either exceeded or matched with better efficiency in 42% of the series he played (33% during championship years and Finals)

Ultimately, only the goat can win 6 rings with their 2nd option outplayed at least 1/3 of the time and no 3rd option (outplayed nearly every time)

Carry on

3ball

08-11-2020, 12:35 PM

1991 ECF: Pippen 22, Dumars 13 (Isiah 17)
1991 Finals: Pippen 21, Worthy 19 (Magic 19)
1992 1R: Pippen 24, Seiklay 21 (Rice 19)
1992 ECSF: Pippen 16, McDaniel 19
1992 ECF: Pippen 20, Daughtery 18 (Price 19)
1992 Finals: Pippen 21, Porter 16 (Drexler 25)
1993 1R: Pippen 15, Willis 17
1993 ECSF: Pippen 18, Daughtery 17 (Price 14)
1993 ECF: Pippen 23, Starks 15 (Ewing 26)
1993 Finals: Pippen 21, Johnson 17
1996 1R: Pippen 20, Mourning 18 (Hardaway 18)
1996 ECSF: Pippen 16, Starks 13
1996 ECF: Pippen 19, Penny 26
1996 Finals: Pippen 16, Kemp 23
1997 1R: Pippen 17, Howard 19 (Webber 16)
1997 ECSF: Pippen 22, Laettner 16 (Smith 18)
1997 ECF: Pippen (injured) 17, Mourning 16; Pippen (healthy) 21
1997 Finals: Pippen 20, Stockton 15 (Malone 24)
1998 1R: Pippen 18, Kittles 16 (Van Horn* 13)
1998 ECSF: Pippen 18, Mason 13
1998 ECF: Pippen 17, Smits 16 (Miller 17)
1998 Finals: Pippen (injured) 16, Stockton 10; Pippen (healthy) 20

^^^^ why exclude efficiency???... efficiency breaks the tie when the ppg is close... :whatever:... :kobe:

Pippen's scoring was either exceeded by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer, or matched with far better efficiency in 42% of his playoff series, which are each shown below (33% during championship years or Finals):

................................. PPG.. FG%.. TS.. ORTG

88' Pippen 1st Rd... 10.6.. 47.1.. 49.4.... 96
88' Harper 1st Rd... 17.6.. 47.6.. 50.7.. 100

88' Pippen. 2nd Rd..... 9.4.. 45.8.. 48.5.... 85
88' Dantley 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 50.0.. 58.9.. 117

89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15.0.. 39.7.. 51.0.. 102
89' Nance. 1st Rd... 19.4.. 55.1.. 58.4.. 117

89' Pippen' ECF..... 9.7.. 40.4.. 45.8.... 94
89' Aguirre ECF... 13.3.. 55.8.. 59.8.. 120

90' Pippen ECF..... 16.6.. 42.6.. 52.0.. 102
90' Thomas ECF... 17.6.. 39.6.. 51.5.. 108

92' Pippen 2nd Rd... 16.0.. 40.2.. 49.3.. 106
92' X-Man. 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 49.6.. 52.5.. 106

93' Pippen' 1st Rd... 15.3.. 42.2.. 45.3.. 100
93' K Willis 1st Rd... 16.7.. 45.7.. 58.9.. 117

94' Pippen 2nd Rd... 21.7.. 40.5.. 51.0.. 103
94' Ewing' 2nd Rd.... 22.9.. 53.0.. 58.1.. 113

95' S Pippen 1st Rd... 16.0.. 51.0.. 60.0.. 122 (3rd option behind kukoc)
95' Johnson' 1st Rd... 20.0.. 47.7.. 54.6.. 119

96' Pippen' 2nd Rd... 15.6.. 33.0.. 41.6.. 100
96' Oakley. 2nd Rd... 13.2.. 50.0.. 57.7.... 99

96' Pippen' ECF.. 18.5.. 45.3.. 50.8.. 120
96' Penny. ECF... 25.5.. 46.9.. 55.1.. 108

96' Pippen. Finals... 15.7.. 34.3.. 42.9.. 106
96' S Kemp Finals... 23.3.. 55.1.. 63.3.. 117

97' Pippen. 1st Rd'... 16.7.. 38.6.. 49.3.. 106
97' Howard 1st Rd... 18.7.. 45.3.. 58.6.. 123

97' S Pippen Finals... 20.0.. 3.5 apg.. 42.2.. 54.1.. 101.. 4 clutch pts
97' Stockton Finals... 15.0.. 8.8 apg.. 50.0.. 61.1.. 111.. 12 clutch pts

98' Pippen. ECF... 16.6.. 39.2.. 46.3.. 102
98' R Smits ECF... 16.3.. 55.4.. 62.6.. 119

93' Pippen Finals.... 21.2.. 43.9.. 45.9.... 97
93' Majerle Finals... 17.2.. 42.0.. 58.7.. 128

TLDR - Pippen was outplayed by the opposing 2nd option in 15 of 36 series (42%).. or 8 of 24 during the championship years (33%)... or 2 of 6 Finals (33%).

The 97' ECF, 95' ECSF, and 93' Finals weren't included in the final tally even though Pippen was outplayed in those series as well

Ultimately, only the goat can win 6 rings with their 2nd option outplayed at least 1/3 of the time and no 3rd option (outplayed nearly every time)

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 12:53 PM

There is a level of absurdity to the MJ stan crusade against Pippen. According to MJ stans themselves, the Bulls without MJ were so stacked they should have won the chip. So how do the same players with MJ magically turn into "no help" pumpkins? :lol

MJ stans can't keep their agendas straight as they froth out the mouth with insecurity as they watch LeBron add to his legacy. If the Lakers win, the comedy value will be amazing.

GrayGoat

08-11-2020, 01:09 PM

Why does efficiency matter when you got Rodman pulling 20rebound games? More rebounds = more possessions and MJ’s team almost ALWAYS out rebounded their opponent

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 01:31 PM

Why does efficiency matter when you got Rodman pulling 20rebound games? More rebounds = more possessions and MJ’s team almost ALWAYS out rebounded their opponent

It also is dumb to compare efficiency between a player on first option level usage and players on third, fourth, or fifth option level usage. Stockton took only 8 shots a game in the 98' finals and 10 in the 97' finals. Byron Russell took essentially the same number of shots in those two finals for some perspective.

It is a neat trick: penalize the superior player capable of handling the greater workload.

For all the MJ stan hallucination, it is a fact Pippen as a first option was 1st team all-NBA (leading vote getter by far) and a MVP candidate. None of the other "sidekicks" from the 90's he gets compared to ever showed they could come close to that level as a #1 option. So it is surreal to hear it argued that the guy who was a top 3-4 player as a #1 somehow sucked as a sidekick. :lol

The only explanation, which seems to be implied by 2ball and his followers, is his hero brought that MVP candidate down to a scrub when he got there (crazy but that is the implication)--yet they will then turn around and attack LeBron for bringing down Wade as an argument for MJ over LeBron.

3ball

08-11-2020, 01:53 PM

The Bulls were nothing in 95' before MJ returned

the 3-peat luster had worn off and guys weren't playing with the chip on their shoulder anymore, or over their heads.. they were barely a .500 team

Plus the stink from the 94' Playoff debacle still lingered in 95'

The 94' Playoffs proved the Bulls were a "system" team and Pippen was infact a bad 1st option - he was the 4th most impactful player on the Bulls in the 94' Playoffs based on stats - he was horrible

tpols

08-11-2020, 02:05 PM

Ultimately, your posts regarding 2nd options say that 98' Pippen outplayed Smits in the ECF by getting 16.6 ppg vs 16.3 for Smits... my logic includes efficiency, which reveals that Pippen shot 39% vs 55% for Smits, so Smits infact destroyed Pippen...

He does that with Iverson and Reggie Miller too.

H2H Iverson put up 27 ppg to Miller's 26 ppg, but rockhead doesn't tell you Iverson needed like 8 more shots to get 1 more point per game.

Just no honesty from that fella.

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 02:12 PM

The goal posts shift (with 2ball's poodle following right behind his leader). :lol Outplaying is no contest: Pippen was the second best player in the 98' ECF between MJ and Kukoc (Miller was fourth--ouch).

The goal post is scoring, scoring, scoring. Smits scored at his prime average of 17 PPG (par for a 90's second option on a good team. Remember the MJ stan narrative: the Pacers were a "great" team with a 17 PPG second option center who couldn't rebound or block shots). Miller is the one who shrunk to 17 PPG (another one of those great 90's first options--career prime scoring of 21). He couldn't get open as Pippen wrecked the Indiana offense and Miller helplessly watched Jackson get smothered and did nothing about it. :oldlol:

It also is naive to compare players who took contested shots to players who tended to take only open shots (and therefore could easily be erased) or to compare a center's "efficiency" to that of a SF.

MJ stans (the 2ball followers, not the smart ones like Kuniva and Phoenix) have such a simplistic understanding of the game: PPG and (scoring) "efficiency." That is it. Even in those limited areas, they lack the ability to grasp the ease of taking 8 wide open shots or the difference between a 7'4" center taking post shots and a 6'7" SF with the skill set to take every type of shot (post, drive, mid-range, long range, etc.). It is as if they have never watched a single basketball game.

3ball

08-11-2020, 02:42 PM

::rolleyes:

3ball

08-11-2020, 02:55 PM

Similar to most Bulls' opponents, the 98' Pacers had several guys with better high-scoring years than Pippen

They were much deeper and well-balanced than the top-heavy Bulls, so their 2nd option had to share the load, aka lower usage and ppg (even though the pacers had several guys with better high-scoring years than Pippen).

The Pacers had 5 or 6 "scorers", aka Miller, Smits, Mullin, McKey, Best, even Rose... The Bulls had 3 with MJ, Pippen and Kukoc.. pacers also had the davis brothers, so the pacers were much deeper and well-balanced with more good players

Btw, Smits destroys Pippen in 98' ECF.. Round ball dismisses Smits like he's a nothing player but he was dominant at his peak, aka required a double-team.. there were points in the ECF that he was DOMINATING the Bulls and requiring timeouts/adjustments.. Pippen never did that to any team ever, in his entire career, aka - he was a Draymond player type, not a game-changer

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 02:57 PM

Let's play the scoring game with MJ's comp.

Miller/Smits (ECF): 33 PPG (dat efficiency on 23 shots a game, doe!)
Malone/Stockton II (Finals): 36 PPG
Malone/Stockton I (Finals): 39 PPG
Hardway/Mourning (ECF): 33 PPG

You get the point. 1991 ECF: Thomas/Dumars 30 PPG. Etc.

How about some of LeBron's comp?

Durant/Curry II: 57 PPG
Durant/Curry I: 62 PPG
Durant/Westbrook: 58 PPG

Yet MJ stans want to keep talking "sidekick" scoring? :lol

MJ stans: "Pippen sucked as a second option."
MJ stans: "Grant was a great second option--even though he sucked as a third option. The Bulls should have won with such a great #2." (Grant was 13.5 PPG for his prime)

Insecurity over MJ and fear of LeBron is driving you guys nuts. :oldlol:

3ball

08-11-2020, 03:01 PM

Let's play the scoring game with MJ's comp.

Miller/Smits (ECF): 33 PPG
Malone/Stockton II (Finals): 36 PPG
Malone/Stockton I (Finals): 39 PPG
Hardway/Mourning (ECF): 33 PPG

You get the point. 1991 ECF: Thomas/Dumars 30 PPG. Etc.

How about some of LeBron's comp?

Durant/Curry II: 57 PPG
Durant/Curry I: 62 PPG
Durant/Westbrook: 58 PPG

Yet MJ stans want to keep talking "sidekick" scoring? :lol

MJ stans: "Pippen sucked as a second option."
MJ stans: "Grant was a great second option--even though he sucked as a third option. The Bulls should have won with such a great #2." (Grant was 13.5 PPG for his prime)

Parker/Kawhi: 36 PPG

^^^ lebron beaten by record amount vs that

MJ was 6/6 vs that... :pimp:

Btw... 17' Kyrie/Lebron = 63 PPG > 57 for Durant/Curry I

Anything else?

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 03:07 PM

3ball

08-11-2020, 03:26 PM

MJ stans reduced to hyping "efficiency" from a "#1 option" that took 12.7 shots a game and a "#2" who took 10.6. These are third, fourth, even fifth option type volume numbers. :lol Reduced to comparing role player 14' Kawhi to prime Reggie Miller. :roll:

Pippen frequently had a 3rd or 4th option load but would still shoot 34% on 15 ppg while defended by unathletic euros... In the Finals no less... Or ECF..

Or he was MIA while MJ carried a low seed over the #1 SRS team in 89'

SamuraiSWISH

08-11-2020, 06:12 PM

Jordan's not winning in that series either. Miami got backdoor swept and Bron played as good/better than second-3-peat Jordan.

28/7/4 on 57%FG and 68%TS. Overall averaged a 12 BPM. Matter of fact a "12 BPM" would tie '91 Jordan statistically.

What I'm trying to say is, put the crack pipe down.
Yea 2014 LeBron = 1991 Jordan ...

Put the LeBron dick down

Guy played no defense. Padded his numbers after games had already been decided, if you actually watched, you’d know this. I know you’ve been on a LeBron circle jerk tangent lately, but the raw numbers and lack of defense aren’t taking into account the entire picture.

The only time he played with urgency to dictate the flow of getting beat was the start of game 5 in San Antonio. He was garbage for much of the series. And like I said, no defense. He wasn’t better than second three peat Mike. And he damn sure wasn’t on the level of 1991 Jordan.

:oldlol:

ELITEpower23

08-11-2020, 07:53 PM

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 08:20 PM

Ouch :lol

It's over

:lol Wait there is more. :pimp: Let's set aside weak sidekicks that most contenders had to suffer through like Starks, Smits, Elliott, Porter, etc. Let's compare the most prominent players discussed as the best "sidekicks" of recent decades.

Playoff VORP, BPM for Prominent Sidekicks

Pippen 91’-93’: 4.3 VORP, 5.1 BPM (58 games)
Pippen 95’-98’: 5.6 VORP, 6.1 BPM (68 games)
Wade 11’-14’: 5.3 VORP, 4.6 BPM (86 games)
Irving 15’-17’: 3.1 VORP, 4.5 BPM (52 games)
Gasol 08’-10’: 4.8 VORP, 5.2 BPM (67 games)
Klay 15’-19’: 2.8 VORP, 0.9 BPM (104 games)

Playoff VORP per 82 games

Pippen 91’-93’: 6.1
Pippen 95’-98’: 6.8
Wade 11’-14’: 5.1
Irving 15’-17’: 4.9
Gasol 08’-10’: 5.9
Klay 15’-19’: 2.2

Pippen gets separated into two players in VORP and both "Pippens" win. :bowdown:

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-11-2020, 10:02 PM

Yea 2014 LeBron = 1991 Jordan ...

Put the LeBron dick down

Guy played no defense. Padded his numbers after games had already been decided, if you actually watched, you’d know this. I know you’ve been on a LeBron circle jerk tangent lately, but the raw numbers and lack of defense aren’t taking into account the entire picture.

The only time he played with urgency to dictate the flow of getting beat was the start of game 5 in San Antonio. He was garbage for much of the series. And like I said, no defense. He wasn’t better than second three peat Mike. And he damn sure wasn’t on the level of 1991 Jordan.

:oldlol:

You post like you're fighting off tears. :oldlol:

Look, we dont need selective numbers. What I used combines everything and is adjusted for possession. They affirm Lebron's elite play just like everyone thought at the time. My post didn't say Lebron was literally equal to Jordan. There is no evidence Lebron padded stats either. You dont "statpad" when scoring most your points before the 4th quarter. It's the same BS that other dimwit yakked.

Bron could have upped his points by about HALF and Miami would still lose. They literally lost by a record margin, while Wade and Bosh were outscored by like 4 different Spurs players. I know you're eager to blame Lebron, but don't gloss over facts because that makes you feel good. Or because you want to talk about "circle jerks" and another dude's package. You're on the wrong forum bro.

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 10:17 PM

Or because you want to talk about "circle jerks" and another dude's package.

I still can't believe he once defended MJ's dick size. :roll:

Shooter

08-11-2020, 10:20 PM

I still can't believe he once defended MJ's dick size. :roll:

You are kidding?! He did? :lol

:roll:

Roundball_Rock

08-11-2020, 10:22 PM

You are kidding?! He did? :lol

:roll:

Yup. :lol I think it was a thread where Madonna's preference for Pippen over Jordan came up and he got insecure about MJ.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-11-2020, 11:44 PM

I still can't believe he once defended MJ's dick size. :roll:

Coach literally cant help himself :oldlol:

Already told him Mike>Bron, but when a fan sexualizes Jordan that wont cut it.

Shooter

08-12-2020, 01:36 AM

Yup. :lol I think it was a thread where Madonna's preference for Pippen over Jordan came up and he got insecure about MJ.

Coach literally cant help himself :oldlol:

Already told him Mike>Bron, but when a fan sexualizes Jordan that wont cut it.

:lol Some of these cats are too much :lol

Roundball_Rock

08-12-2020, 09:43 AM

:lol

Vino24

08-12-2020, 11:44 AM

Problem with MJ was his lack of all-around game. It’s the reason Madonna chose Pippen

Turbo Slayer

08-12-2020, 11:48 AM

3ball

08-12-2020, 08:07 PM

Coach literally cant help himself :oldlol:

Already told him Mike>Bron, but when a fan sexualizes Jordan that wont cut it.

You base everything off BPM? Really?

You don't understand basketball at all if you think 14' Lebron played on the same level as any Jordan Finals, let alone 91'

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-12-2020, 08:10 PM

You base everything off BPM? Really?

You don't understand basketball at all if you think 14' Lebron played on the same level as any Jordan Finals, let alone 91'

I was addressing, Coach. Not you.

Or do you talk for "other" people too? I dont base everything on BPM. That is why I also posted the raw numbers.

All the data suggests blaming Bron is laughable.

AirBonner

08-12-2020, 08:10 PM

You base everything off BPM? Really?

You don't understand basketball at all if you think 14' Lebron played on the same level as any Jordan Finals, let alone 91'
You think Ppg is the be all end all. Stfu

3ball

08-12-2020, 08:25 PM

I was addressing Coach, not. you.

Or do you talk for "other" people? I don't base everything off of BPM. That is why I posted the raw numbers too. All the data suggests blaming Bron is laughable.

It's not so much "blaming" Lebron, but simply pointing out that the 14' Finals is further evidence that lebron isn't on Jordan's level.. Even rookie Jordan never lost that bad with a lottery team (86') and massive underdog, let alone a veteran champion cast and even money team that Lebron had in 14'..

Jordan doesn't cramp up in Game 1, nor does his team give up in Game 3... Nor does he average 17 shots in a series that his team needed 34 to attract more attention and free everyone up, while also keeping pace/setting the pace... was lebron injured and physically incapable of taking more shots?.. wasn't that a dumb thing to do?

lebron actually took those 34 shots the next year in 15', but he didn't have the threats he needed to take some pressure off and have better efficiency.. but at least he took enough shots to free up teammates (even though they didn't hit)

Ultimately, Jordan would've averaged 40+ against the Spurs if it was required to win.. they weren't the Bad Boys and soft by comparison.. but let's face it - lebron isn't capable of this, so he shied away and quit.. it's unfortunate because his transformation in the 16' Finals proved that this type of increase in scoring can turn around the longest of odds

Roundball_Rock

08-12-2020, 08:30 PM

You think Ppg is the be all end all. Stfu

It is funny they dismiss BPM while judging every single player by PPG. :lol There is never going to be a perfect way to capture what players do on the court but BPM and VORP come closest.

The irony is MJ was one of the best all-around players ever but these fools diminish him into being a souped up version of Dominique or Carmelo.

3ball

08-12-2020, 08:31 PM

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-12-2020, 08:33 PM

It's not so much "blaming" Lebron, but simply pointing out that the 14' Finals is further evidence that lebron isn't on Jordan's level.. Even rookie Jordan never lost that bad with a lottery team (86') and massive underdog, let alone a veteran champion cast and even money team that Lebron had in 14'..

Jordan doesn't cramp up in Game 1, nor does his team give up in Game 3... Nor does he average 17 shots in a series that his team needed 34 to attract more attention and free everyone up, while also keeping pace/setting the pace... was he injured and physically incapable of taking more shots?.. wasn't that a dumb thing to do?

lebron actually took those 34 shots the next year in 15', but he didn't have the threats he needed to take some pressure off and have better efficiency.. but at least he took enough shots to free up teammates (even though they didn't hit)

And yet, you go on about Lebron choking the series away. Which again is stupid. You don't have a point because you're scrambling for one.

Far as more evidence that Mike was better? That depends on which years you're talking about.

'12-18 Bron is right there with MJ depending on the year. From 88-93, though, Jordan is the best player I ever saw. So there's that.

AirBonner

08-12-2020, 08:38 PM

Roundball_Rock

08-12-2020, 08:40 PM

Whose DBPM is better, Pippen or Bird

Here are the BPM's for #2 options in every series in the title years the Bulls played a 50+ win team. If someone is in parentheses, they were the #1 option.

BPM against 50+ Win Teams During Bulls' Title Runs

1991 ECF: Pippen 8.8, Dumars -2.8 (Isiah -0.2)
1991 Finals: Pippen 3.8, Worthy 0.4
1992 ECSF: Pippen 5.5, McDaniel 1.8 (Ewing 3.8)
1992 ECF: Pippen 6.9, Daughtery 3.6 (Price 4.2)
1992 Finals: Pippen 7.1, Porter 0.1 (Drexler 7.2)
1993 ECSF: Pippen 5.5, McDaniel 1.8 (Ewing 3.8)
1993 ECSF: Pippen 3.8, Daughtery 1.2 (Price 0.0)
1993 ECF: Pippen 4.1, Starks -2.0
1993 Finals: Pippen 1.5, Johnson -4.6
1996 ECF: Pippen 7.1, Penny 4.5
1996 Finals: Kemp 8.5, Pippen 6.4 (Payton 5.1)
1997 ECSF: Pippen 6.5, Laettner -0.4 (Smith -2.1)
1997 ECF: Pippen 6.1, Mourning 0.6 (Hardaway 4.8)
1997 Finals: Stockton 8.0, Pippen 5.5 (Malone 5.8)
1998 ECSF: Pippen 9.1, Mason 2.7 (Rice 3.2)
1998 ECF: Pippen 4.4, Smits 2.8 (Miller 3.9)
1998: Pippen 5.8, Stockton 4.9, Pippen (healthy) 7.3

If Pippen sucked, MJ played in a terribly weak era. :lol

3ball

08-12-2020, 08:45 PM

And yet, you go on about Lebron choking the series away. Which again is stupid. You don't have a point because you're scrambling for one.

Far as more evidence that Jordan was better? That depends on which years you're talking about.

'12-18 Bron is right there with MJ depending on year. From 88-93, though, Jordan is the best player I ever saw. So there is that.

Lebron quit with cramps in game 1 and the team fell apart.. So jordan wins that game by simply finishing the game... 1-0

Game 2 - lebron with 35 ppg and Heat win - sounds like easy work for Jordan.. 2-0

Game 3 - the Heat quit - when did a Jordan team quit? And up 2-0?.. gtfo... 3-0.. its 96' all over again...

And we haven't talked about Bosh/Wade being better fits with an assist target like MJ, so Spolestra's offense would be the goat offense it should've been (instead of being taught a basketball lesson and shockingly never being a #1 offense)

And Jordan leads Lebron in all the advanced stats, aka BPM, PER, WS/48, and VORP seasons.. And Lebron plays an entirely inferior way that doesn't elevate teams like Jordan

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-12-2020, 08:50 PM

Lebron quit with cramps in game 1 and the team fell apart.. So jordan wins that game by simply finishing the game... 1-0

Game 2 - lebron with 35 ppg and Heat win - sounds like easy work for Jordan.. 2-0

Game 3 - the Heat quit - when did a Jordan team quit? And up 2-0?.. gtfo... 3-0.. its 96' all over again...

And we haven't talked about Bosh/Wade being better fits with an assist target like MJ, so Spolestra's offense would be the goat offense it should've been (instead of being taught a basketball lesson and shockingly never being a #1 offense)

Bron "choked the series away" yet averaged the same production per possession as '91 Jordan. In the finals.

:oldlol:

Like I told, Coach. Your perception has nothing to do with the facts. Facts don't care about your feelings.

It is funny they dismiss BPM while judging every single player by PPG. :lol There is never going to be a perfect way to capture what players do on the court but BPM and VORP come closest.

The irony is MJ was one of the best all-around players ever but these fools diminish him into being a souped up version of Dominique or Carmelo.

Bingo.

3ball

08-12-2020, 09:07 PM

Bron choked the series away, yet dude averaged the same production per possession as '91 Jordan. In the finals.

Like I told, Coach. Your perception has nothing to do with the facts. Facts don't care about your feelings.

game-by-game BPM

Jordan 91' Finals... 26.6.. 20.8.. 17.0.. 11.1.. 8.7
Lebron 14' Finals... 16.5.. 14.6.. 11.1.... 9.2.. 8.7

(ordered highest to lowest)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog-advanced/2014/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog-advanced/1991/

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-12-2020, 09:27 PM

game-by-game BPM

Jordan 91' Finals... 26.6.. 20.8.. 17.0.. 11.1.. 8.7
Lebron 14' Finals... 16.5.. 14.6.. 11.1.... 9.2.. 8.7

(ordered highest to lowest)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog-advanced/2014/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog-advanced/1991/

Yeah... finals play is referring to Bron. Not Jordan.

Dude averaged a 12 BPM. The same as Jordan did in 1991. Pretty high bar for an alleged choker :confusedshrug:

For reference:
Bron in the 2014 Finals (https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html)
91 Mike (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html)

AirBonner

08-12-2020, 09:37 PM

Bronbron23

08-12-2020, 10:55 PM

That’s a wrap

Bpm? Wtf is basketball coming to when A bunch of stat geeks who dont understand the game are dictating who's what. The numbers dont show it but kawhi totally took lebron out of that series which took the heat out of the series. Bron shot a terrible percentage with kawhi on him. He was extremely bothered by kawhi's defense. The heat coaching staff recognized this and did everything they could to set screens to get a switch and get him off of bron. They were successful in doing so and lebrons stats show this. What isnt shown in your stats is how the time it took the heat to get the switch they wanted it took precious time off the clock and took the heat out of there rythem. This was one of the main reasons why a team playing with one of the best players ever and 3 all stars couldn't score one game in the 100's.

All you have to do is go back and watch the games. Its clear as day.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-12-2020, 11:30 PM

Bpm? Wtf is basketball coming to when A bunch of stat geeks who dont understand the game are dictating who's what. The numbers dont show it but kawhi totally took lebron out of that series which took the heat out of the series. Bron shot a terrible percentage with kawhi on him. He was extremely bothered by kawhi's defense. The heat coaching staff recognized this and did everything they could to set screens to get a switch and get him off of bron. They were successful in doing so and lebrons stats show this. What isnt shown in your stats is how the time it took the heat to get the switch they wanted it took precious time off the clock and took the heat out of there rythem. This was one of the main reasons why a team playing with one of the best players ever and 3 all stars couldn't score one game in the 100's.

All you have to do is go back and watch the games. Its clear as day.

BPM are your raw numbers adjusted per possession. Points, rebounds, assists. The whole 9.

And is roughly the same formula that determines a teams defensive rating. Or their how they rank on O. There is nothing "geeky" or complex about it. Well it might be if you don't understand basic math. Bron isn't only judged on how well Kawhi guarded him either. He is evaluated on his play as a whole. That lump sum says he played alright.

Bosh and Wade though were outscored by like 4 or 5 different Spur players. They're never mentioned because depaprate, agenda-seeking morons want to blame Bron.

SouBeachTalents

08-13-2020, 12:02 AM

BPM are your raw numbers adjusted per possession. Points, rebounds, assists. The whole 9.

And is roughly the same formula that determines a teams defensive rating. Or their how they rank on O. There is nothing "geeky" or complex about it. Well it might be if you don't understand basic math. Bron isn't only judged on how well Kawhi guarded him either. He is evaluated on his play as a whole. That lump sum says he played alright.

Bosh and Wade though were outscored by like 4 or 5 different Spur players. They're never mentioned because depaprate, agenda-seeking morons want to blame Bron.
It really is the most retarded logic, the guy who played by far the best on the team gets the blame for the loss :lol

Roundball_Rock

08-13-2020, 12:13 AM

To make it more ironic and moronic, the guy who bitches the most about a lack of sidekick help (in his insane mind) for MJ has nothing to say about Wade having a terrible series. If you go by game score Wade was 9th in the series (Bosh 6th). BPM would presumably give you a similar result.

3ball

08-13-2020, 12:45 AM

That’s a wrap

lebron's BPM in the 14' Finals was nowhere near 91' MJ's Finals

Kuniva is simply lying

And BPM includes DBPM, which is a bullshit stat - DBPM and DRTG say that Bird is a better defender than Pippen, because both stats favor defensive rebounders

But despite BPM favoring rebounders and frontcourt players (and not measuring the defensive aspect accurately), Jordan is #1 all-time in BPM

3ball

08-13-2020, 12:50 AM

Yeah... finals play is referring to Bron. Not Jordan.

Dude averaged a 12 BPM. The same as Jordan did in 1991. Pretty high bar for an alleged choker :confusedshrug:

For reference:
Bron in the 2014 Finals (https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html)
91 Mike (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html)
The 12 BPM wasn't sufficient to win in 2014, so Lebron should've done better like MJ did in his Finals

Accept the reality - if Lebron had Jordan's stats from the 93' Finals, he would've won the 14' Finals - this isn't bullshit - the 16' Finals showed that such a scoring increase can turn around the longest odds ever (3-1 deficit at 24 ppg... 3-0 a 36 ppg)

Ultimately, MJ wasn't capable of losing with a championship roster or by record amount BECAUSE HE PLAYED BETTER.. he would average 41 if needed (in an 89 pace series) and lock up his man (no fmvp for magic, drexler, dumas or payton.. so Lebron lost many series that MJ wouldn't..

And lebron's BPM is padded by defensive rebounds - aka the same reason that Bird has better DBPM and DRTG than Pippen - the creators of these stats say the defensive stats aren't accurate like their offensive counterparts (OBPM and ORTG), so why do you base your opinions on them? Is it because you don't know anything yourself? You're losing credibility fast with this BPM bullshit 3rd grade dummy analysis.

insidious301

08-13-2020, 01:05 AM

3ball wants to pigeon-hole points in every topic, but thinks a cumulative stat is uber advanced. Or even worse, not credible. Haha. It combines everything you did in a stat sheet! By your own ridiculous logic, you don't know anything besides points per game. Brush up on the numbers again. Maybe then you'll have a better counter-argument for airbonner and kuniva.

3ball

08-13-2020, 01:09 AM

3ball wants to pigeon-hole points in every topic, but thinks a cumulative stat is uber advanced. Or even worse, not credible. It combines everything you did in a stat sheet! By your ridiculous logic, you don't know anything beside points. Brush up on the numbers again. Maybe then you might come up with a better counter-argument for airbonner and kuniva.

BPM is made up of offensive BPM (OBPM) and defensive BPM (DBPM)

OBPM captures all the offensive stats, while DBPM simply counts defensive rebounds, steals and blocks - the bias towards rebounders is why Bird has better DBPM and DRTG than Pippen - so DBPM is bullshit and the creators say so, which makes BPM a garbage stat.. the creators concede that only OBPM and ORTG are a valid stats (not DBPM, DRTG, or BPM)

3ball wants to pigeon-hole points in every topic, but thinks a cumulative stat is uber advanced. Or even worse, not credible. It combines everything you did in a stat sheet! By your ridiculous logic, you don't know anything beside points. Brush up on the numbers again. Maybe then you might come up with a better counter-argument for airbonner and kuniva.

Lebron's 12 BPM wasn't sufficient to win in 2014, so Lebron should've done better like MJ did in his Finals

Accept the reality - if Lebron had Jordan's stats from the 93' Finals, he would've won the 14' Finals - this isn't bullshit - the 16' Finals showed that such a scoring increase can turn around the longest odds ever (3-1 deficit at 24 ppg... 3-0 a 36 ppg)

Ultimately, MJ wasn't capable of losing with a championship roster or by record amount BECAUSE HE PLAYED BETTER.. he would average 41 if needed (in an 89 pace series) and lock up his man (no fmvp for magic, drexler, dumas or payton.. so Lebron lost many series that MJ wouldn't..

And lebron's BPM is padded by defensive rebounds - aka the same reason that Bird has better DBPM and DRTG than Pippen - the creators of these stats say the defensive stats aren't accurate like their offensive counterparts (OBPM and ORTG), so why do you base your opinions on them? Is it because you don't know anything yourself? You're losing credibility fast with this BPM bullshit 3rd grade dummy analysis.

insidious301

08-13-2020, 01:14 AM

BPM is made up of offensive BPM (OBPM) and defensive BPM (DBPM)

OBPM captures all the offensive stats, while DBPM simply counts defensive rebounds steals and blocks - the bias towards rebounders is why Bird has better DBPM and DRTG bthan Pippen - so DBPM is bullshit and the creators say so.. only OBPM is a valid stat

Its your cumulative numbers regulated for 100 possessions. Points are not a better measure than the broad view. This is akin to using 3 playoff games out of 29 like you did in that other topic. Why ignore 78% of the pie, or in this case, the other major stat categories? You need to brush up on this stuff before talking about it.

3ball

08-13-2020, 01:16 AM

Its your cumulative numbers regulated for 100 possessions. Points are not a better measure than the bigger picture. This is akin to you cherrypicking 3 playoff games out of 29 like you did in that other topic. Why ignore the 78% of the pie, or in this case, the other major stat categories? You need to brush up on this stuff before talking about it.

Yes I said OBPM is valid

But not DBPM, which therefore skews BPM and invalidates BPM..

Again, the creators concede that is only OBPM is valid, not dbpm (and therefore not BPM)

insidious301

08-13-2020, 01:20 AM

Yes I said OBPM is valid

But not DBPM, which therefore skews BPM and invalidates BPM..

Again, the creators concede that is only OBPM is valid, not dbpm (and therefore not BPM)

That is valid too, and no, the creator does not say that. It just includes what you logged on defense v-i-a the box score. I don't see anyone citing dbpm as a single metric for defense.

3ball

08-13-2020, 01:28 AM

That is valid too, and no, the creator does not say that. It just includes what you logged on defense v-i-a the box score. I don't see anyone citing dbpm as a single metric for defense.

That's the creators' point - the boxscore doesn't measure defense barely at all (only steals, blocks and drebs), whereas the boxscore measures offense very well (points, efficiency, assists, turnovers, etc).. the boxscore measures points scored/created, but not points prevented.

So obpm is great, and dbpm is trash quite honestly (as the creators concede).. in addition to not measuring defense well, dbpm favors rebounders (that's why Bird has better DBPM and drtg than Pippen)

insidious301

08-13-2020, 01:34 AM

That's the creators' point - the boxscore doesn't measure defense barely at all (only steals, blocks and drebs), whereas the boxscore measures offense very well (points, efficiency, assists, turnovers, etc)

So obpm is great, and dbpm is shit quite honestly (as the creators concede).. in addition to not measuring defense well, dbpm favors rebounders (that's why Bird has better DBPM and drtg than Pippen)

Yes, 3ball. Bocks and steals are all part of what you did v-i-a your gamelog. That is the point. BPM includes all main stats. Not just points like you inaccurately do. Nobody uses dbpm as their one and only defensive measure. That would be crazy.

3ball

08-13-2020, 01:48 AM

Yes, 3ball. Bocks and steals are all part of what you did v-i-a your gamelog. That is the point. BPM includes all main stats. Not just points like you inaccurately do. Nobody uses dbpm as their one and only defensive measure. That would be crazy.

Now I have to post what the creators said because you aren't listening to the facts

The boxscore shows points scored but not points prevented, so it shows offense, but not defense:

"There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score (only missing things like screen-setting), but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

Box Plus/Minus is a very good offensive metric, but it struggles some with defense. As mentioned before, when all you have is a box score, you cannot estimate defense very well. In other words--take DBPM with a spoonful of salt."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

knicksman

08-13-2020, 03:38 AM

It is funny they dismiss BPM while judging every single player by PPG. :lol There is never going to be a perfect way to capture what players do on the court but BPM and VORP come closest.

The irony is MJ was one of the best all-around players ever but these fools diminish him into being a souped up version of Dominique or Carmelo.

except that jordan only needs 4apg and 6rpg to win 72 and 69. He doesnt need to be the best all around. All he needs is to be the best scorer. The best player to rely on in the clutch. Same with kawhi, same with kobe. Theres a reason why kawhi types are better winners than lebron types.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 08:52 AM

BPM are your raw numbers adjusted per possession. Points, rebounds, assists. The whole 9.

And is roughly the same formula that determines a teams defensive rating. Or their how they rank on O. There is nothing "geeky" or complex about it. Well it might be if you don't understand basic math. Bron isn't only judged on how well Kawhi guarded him either. He is evaluated on his play as a whole. That lump sum says he played alright.

Bosh and Wade though were outscored by like 4 or 5 different Spur players. They're never mentioned because depaprate, agenda-seeking morons want to blame Bron.

Nah dude kawhi just gave bron hella problems. Go back and watch the series. Kawhi totally disrupted james and thus the heats offense.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 09:16 AM

It really is the most retarded logic, the guy who played by far the best on the team gets the blame for the loss :lol

no one said lebron is to blame. He was the best on his team and he played well. Kawhi just gave him alot of problems is all and he took james and the heat out of there offense.

I know you guys dont understand the game very well but let me try to help you. There's only 24 seconds in the shot clock. By the time the ball is brought over half and your ready to initiate your offense there's about 15 seconds left. This was usually what the heat had to work with in there half court sets.
Now against the spurs and kawhi this was considerably lower because kawhi was giving lebron problems. Remember bron shot just above 30% when kawhi was on him so the heats adjustment for this was to set screens to get kawhi off of james and get a worse defender that james could take advantage of. This often worked but the amount of time it took to get the switch and then set the offense back up took precious time away what they had for their offense. Now instead of having 15 seconds to work the offense they had about 8. This had two negative effects. One it took the heat out of there regularly rythem and offensive flow and two it considerably slowed down there offense which for the aging slower spurs was beneficial. This was a huge reason why one of the greatest scorers ever with 2 all stars couldn't score one game above 100.

This is basic shit that bron stans will never comprehend because it isnt captured in a specific stat.

NBAGOAT

08-13-2020, 09:25 AM

no one said lebron is to blame. He was the best on his team and he played well. Kawhi just gave him alot of problems is all and he took james and the heat out of there offense.

I know you guys dont understand the game very well but let me try to help you. There's only 24 seconds in the shot clock. By the time the ball is brought over half and your ready to initiate your offense there's about 15 seconds left. This was usually what the heat had to work with in there half court sets.
Now against the spurs and kawhi this was considerably lower because kawhi was giving lebron problems. Remember bron shot just above 30% when kawhi was on him so the heats adjustment for this was to set screens to get kawhi off of james and get a worse defender that james could take advantage of. This often worked but the amount of time it took to get the switch and then set the offense back up took precious time away what they had for their offense. Now instead of having 15 seconds to work the offense they had about 8. This had two negative effects. One it took the heat out of there regularly rythem and offensive flow and two it considerably slowed down there offense which for the aging slower spurs was beneficial. This was a huge reason why one of the greatest scorers ever with 2 all stars couldn't score one game above 100.

This is basic shit that bron stans will never comprehend because it isnt captured in a specific stat.

You would have a point except plenty of playoff offenses play deeper into the shot clock vs most isolations. Also lebrons not the only to hunt switches others have done it and it often works decently in the playoffs. The cavs did that a bunch and had incredible playoff offenses even with a slow pace.

Even with the rhythm argument wade and bosh massively underperformed if you consider them all stars. I think it was in between bosh was all star lvl but wade might’ve not been with his injuries and age and they underperformed too(more wade). I think we can agree wade wasn’t all star lvl after in 15 and 16 even if he made the team

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 09:31 AM

lebron's BPM in the 14' Finals was nowhere near 91' MJ's Finals

Kuniva is simply lying

And BPM includes DBPM, which is a bullshit stat - DBPM and DRTG say that Bird is a better defender than Pippen, because both stats favor defensive rebounders

But despite BPM favoring rebounders and frontcourt players (and not measuring the defensive aspect accurately), Jordan is #1 all-time in BPM

Learn to read, buckwheat. Nowhere in that post did I say his BPM was equal to Finals Jordan.

The linked I referenced is from the ’91 season. An 82 game sample. DPBM isn’t “bullshit” either, you just dont get that it tallies up another box-score number. For instance: defensive rebounds, blocks and steals. Since you want to whine about points, why not include everything that goes into a stat sheet? That was a rhetorical question. We know why you don’t.

The 12 BPM wasn't sufficient to win in 2014, so Lebron should've done better like MJ did in his Finals

Accept the reality - if Lebron had Jordan's stats from the 93' Finals, he would've won the 14' Finals - this isn't bullshit - the 16' Finals showed that such a scoring increase can turn around the longest odds ever (3-1 deficit at 24 ppg... 3-0 a 36 ppg)

Ultimately, MJ wasn't capable of losing with a championship roster or by record amount BECAUSE HE PLAYED BETTER.. he would average 41 if needed (in an 89 pace series) and lock up his man (no fmvp for magic, drexler, dumas or payton.. so Lebron lost many series that MJ wouldn't..

And lebron's BPM is padded by defensive rebounds - aka the same reason that Bird has better DBPM and DRTG than Pippen - the creators of these stats say the defensive stats aren't accurate like their offensive counterparts (OBPM and ORTG), so why do you base your opinions on them? Is it because you don't know anything yourself? You're losing credibility fast with this BPM bullshit 3rd grade dummy analysis.

You’re still wrong.

Bron’s BPM was just as "sufficient" as peak Jordan. So if LeBron is this “choker” you claim him to be, you had better hold your hero to the same standard.

And quit talking about LeBron “needing to score” like he did in 2016. Jordan in the finals only averaged over 36 a game once. And never in the second 3-peat. Why are you expecting Bron to do that TWICE. We know that Bron averaged the same production per possession as 91 Jordan, so he played fine. And on an elite level. You can kick and scream all you want, but those are the facts. When most of your production comes before the 4th quarter, you are not “padding” stats either. Sorry, no dice.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 09:37 AM

Nah dude kawhi just gave bron hella problems. Go back and watch the series. Kawhi totally disrupted james and thus the heats offense.

He did give Bron problems. Just not enough to blame Lebron for Miami losing. Like 3bot does.

Bron shot like 67% with Kawhi guarding him through the first 3 games. It ended up being lower than that as the series went on, but the sample size was tiny. Bron averaged 24 through 3 quarters and was facing a blow out in 3 of 4 of those games. I don't need to go back and watch the series when its fresh in my head. Your “disrupt” narrative aside, the Spurs were just a flat-out better team. Another reason a handful of their players outscored Bosh and Wade.

34-24 Footwork

08-13-2020, 10:09 AM

NBAGOAT

08-13-2020, 10:15 AM

If the Spurs were a better team, then the Geriatric Mavericks, who took this 'GOAT Spurs Team' to 7 games in the first round, were probably better as well.

It's a true testament to how easy that ride was to the finals.

Yea this argument sucks because of a playoff series being so short. Even if two teams are completely evenly matched there’s 1/8 chance a series ends in a sweep. Ik you don’t believe the 08 hawks and 08 cavs are better than the 08 pistons or 08 lakers.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 10:16 AM

You would have a point except plenty of playoff offenses play deeper into the shot clock vs most isolations. Also lebrons not the only to hunt switches others have done it and it often works decently in the playoffs. The cavs did that a bunch and had incredible playoff offenses even with a slow pace.

Even with the rhythm argument wade and bosh massively underperformed if you consider them all stars. I think it was in between bosh was all star lvl but wade might’ve not been with his injuries and age and they underperformed too(more wade). I think we can agree wade wasn’t all star lvl after in 15 and 16 even if he made the team

No they definitely arnt the only team to do that. Warriors did it with steph often. And it definitely wasn't the only factor. Wade wasnt amazing but bosh was actually pretty solid. He just wasn't getting the ball enough. Its never one thing but the kawhi's defense was definitely a huge factor

34-24 Footwork

08-13-2020, 10:17 AM

Come to think of it, it would've been cool back then if the "Eastern Conference Champions" had a Proving Grounds game to make sure they were able to compete.

2014 Mavericks or Thunder vs Heat would've been a solid series and more competitive. Also better for ratings.

Instead, it was a BRUTAL beatdown by a geriatric Spurs team with a raw Leonard.

34-24 Footwork

08-13-2020, 10:19 AM

Yea this argument sucks because of a playoff series being so short. Even if two teams are completely evenly matched there’s 1/8 chance a series ends in a sweep. Ik you don’t believe the 08 hawks and 08 cavs are better than the 08 pistons or 08 lakers.

It doesn't have to be a sweep for the series to be uncompetitive. The 2014 Finals ended in the second-most lopsided beating in NBA finals history and it wasn't a sweep.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 10:22 AM

He did give Bron problems. Just not enough to blame Lebron for Miami losing. Like 3bot does.

Bron shot like 67% with Kawhi guarding him through the first 3 games. It ended up being lower than that as the series went on, but the sample size was tiny. Bron averaged 24 through 3 quarters and was facing a blow out in 3 of 4 of those games. I don't need to go back and watch the series when its fresh in my head. Your “disrupt” narrative aside, the Spurs were just a flat-out better team. Another reason a handful of their players outscored Bosh and Wade.

Im not blaming bron im just saying kawhi's impact was a huge reason why lebron struggled a bit and the heat lost. And lebron didn't shoot 67% with kawhi on him ever. He shot that against other defenders though.

And the spurs being better is debatable. They definitely didn't have better players. Everyone was well past their primes and kawhi was a pup. Yeah they played better but but how much if that is because of the issue at hand?

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 10:58 AM

Im not blaming bron im just saying kawhi's impact was a huge reason why lebron struggled a bit and the heat lost. And lebron didn't shoot 67% with kawhi on him ever. He shot that against other defenders though.

And the spurs being better is debatable. They definitely didn't have better players. Everyone was well past their primes and kawhi was a pup. Yeah they played better but but how much if that is because of the issue at hand?

Right, 3ball was. That contradicts 'nobody' blaming Bron.

Lebron did shoot 67% against Kawhi through 3 games. Video tracking had him shooting 12-of-18 (66.7 percent) with KL as his primary defender in the first three games. Look it up.

Miami had better names on paper, but the Spurs were absolutely the better team. They kicked Miami's ass by a record margin. In large part because Wade and Bosh got outscored by 4 or 5 different Spur players.

Roundball_Rock

08-13-2020, 11:02 AM

3ball wants to pigeon-hole points in every topic, but thinks a cumulative stat is uber advanced. Or even worse, not credible. Haha. It combines everything you did in a stat sheet! By your own ridiculous logic, you don't know anything besides points per game

More nuttiness from 2ball: no stat matters except PPG because PPG is all a player does on a court. :lol

Since you want to whine about points, why not include everything that goes into a stat sheet? That was a rhetorical question. We know why you don’t.

:oldlol:

He did give Bron problems. Just not enough to blame Lebron for Miami losing. Like 3bot does.

Agreed. People conflate Kawhi limited LeBron with his overall production in the series. The non-Kawhi possessions count too.

And the spurs being better is debatable. They definitely didn't have better players. Everyone was well past their primes and kawhi was a pup.

They had the best record. Miami was 6th or 7th. People underrated the Spurs because they had no superstars but they were a talented, deep team like the 04' Pistons.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 11:11 AM

Right, 3ball was. That contradicts 'nobody' blaming Bron.

Lebron did shoot 67% against Kawhi through 3 games. Video tracking had him shooting 12-of-18 (66.7 percent) with KL as his primary defender in the first three games. Look it up.

Miami had better names on paper, but the Spurs were absolutely the better team. They kicked Miami's ass by a record margin. In large part because Wade and Bosh got outscored by 4 or 5 different Spur players.

Well i guess but 3 ball is a different cat than most. Fair point though.

And if you read the whole article where you got that from it actually goes on to explain why kawhi caused bron so much trouble and took him and the heat out of there offense. You said it yourself, 12-18. Lebronly took 18 shots against kawhi in 3 games. Thats way below his norm. Why was that?

Here the article that explains it https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91407/kawhi-leonard-wreaking-havoc-on-lebron

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 11:13 AM

More nuttiness from 2ball: no stat matters except PPG because PPG is all a player does on a court. :lol

:oldlol:

Agreed. People conflate Kawhi limited LeBron with his overall production in the series. The non-Kawhi possessions count too.

They had the best record. Miami was 6th or 7th. People underrated the Spurs because they had no superstars but they were a talented, deep team like the 04' Pistons.

well they had the best coach and system but they definitely didn't have better players. Spurs were well past their prime and miami was pretty much still in their prime.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 11:15 AM

Agreed. People conflate Kawhi limited LeBron with his overall production in the series. The non-Kawhi possessions count too.

They also overrate how that impacted the series.

Bron shot well against him thru 3. In that third game, Miami still lost by 19. Dude could have upped his scoring in half, and that still wouldn't makeup for their shit defense. Or his help being undressed. :lol

They had the best record. Miami was 6th or 7th. People underrated the Spurs because they had no superstars but they were a talented, deep team like the 04' Pistons.

Exactly.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 11:15 AM

More nuttiness from 2ball: no stat matters except PPG because PPG is all a player does on a court. :lol

:oldlol:

Agreed. People conflate Kawhi limited LeBron with his overall production in the series. The non-Kawhi possessions count too.

They had the best record. Miami was 6th or 7th. People underrated the Spurs because they had no superstars but they were a talented, deep team like the 04' Pistons.

and here's the aticle i showed the other dude explaing how kawhi indeed cause bron some serious problems.https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91407/kawhi-leonard-wreaking-havoc-on-lebron

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 11:25 AM

He did give Bron problems. Just not enough to blame Lebron for Miami losing. Like 3bot does.

Bron shot like 67% with Kawhi guarding him through the first 3 games. It ended up being lower than that as the series went on, but the sample size was tiny. Bron averaged 24 through 3 quarters and was facing a blow out in 3 of 4 of those games. I don't need to go back and watch the series when its fresh in my head. Your “disrupt” narrative aside, the Spurs were just a flat-out better team. Another reason a handful of their players outscored Bosh and Wade.

also if bron shot 67% with Kawhi on him for the first 3 games but shot just over 30% with him on him for the entire series that means the rest of the series including the elimination game bron shot like 10% with kawhi on him so either way i fail to see how this is a good argument in favor of.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 11:26 AM

Well i guess but 3 ball is a different cat than most. Fair point though.

And if you read the whole article where you got that from it actually goes on to explain why kawhi caused bron so much trouble and took him and the heat out of there offense. You said it yourself, 12-18. Lebronly took 18 shots against kawhi in 3 games. Thats way below his norm. Why was that?

Here the article that explains it https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91407/kawhi-leonard-wreaking-havoc-on-lebron

Yeah if you read his posts, you will see "choke" and "quit" attached to Bron's name. 3bot seriously lusts for that dude.

I read the article. Same one that has tracking numbers you claimed didn't exist. I agree that Kawhi gave him problems, and told you that earlier. The impact it had is overrated though. Miami's defense and Bron's "help" were bigger factors.

AirBonner

08-13-2020, 11:26 AM

well they had the best coach and system but they definitely didn't have better players. Spurs were well past their prime and miami was pretty much still in their prime.

That is true for Wade for one year then he fell off a cliff. Then there is the overrating of Bosh who did absolutely nothing on the raptors. He put up 0pts in a finals game in his prime. He was never a superstar despite y’all touting him around here like he was.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 11:39 AM

Yeah if you read his posts, you will see "choke" and "quit" attached to Bron's name. 3bot seriously lusts for that dude.

I read the article. Same one that has tracking numbers you claimed didn't exist. I agree that Kawhi gave him problems, and told you that earlier. The impact it had is overrated though. Miami's defense and Bron's "help" were bigger factors.

Yeah i definitely wouldn't say bron choked or quit but id say its debatable that kawhis impact on bron was less that wade and bosh's play. Wade and boshs play is a overused excuse by bron fans and here's why. The year before the heat beat the spurs. Wade scored 20 on 48% and bosh scored 12 on 46%. In 2014 when they lost wade scored 15 on 44% and bosh scored 14 on 55%. Thats a combined difference of only 3 points less but on worse efficiency so the impact is more like 2 points difference.

The wade bosh argument was always a weak one.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 11:42 AM

That is true for Wade for one year then he fell off a cliff. Then there is the overrating of Bosh who did absolutely nothing on the raptors. He put up 0pts in a finals game in his prime. He was never a superstar despite y’all touting him around here like he was.

ive never said he was a superstar but he was an all star and a pretty good player in his prime mind you. The wade/bosh argument is overrated. See above post on why.

Roundball_Rock

08-13-2020, 11:46 AM

They also overrate how that impacted the series.

Bron shot well against him thru 3. In that third game, Miami still lost by 19. Dude could have upped his scoring in half, and that still wouldn't makeup for their shit defense. Or his help being undressed.

Good points.

and here's the aticle i showed the other dude explaing how kawhi indeed cause bron some serious problems

I agree he did (part of the problem with LeBron having no real go to move, a crude post game, etc.--he doesn't have something to fallback on against a Kawhi or Iggy level defender) but every possession counts in the game, not just the ones Kawhi was on LeBron. LeBron had a good series--his teammates didn't show up. They were the inferior team even if they did.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 11:55 AM

Yeah i definitely wouldn't say bron choked or quit but id say its debatable that kawhis impact on bron was less that wade and bosh's play. Wade and boshs play is a overused excuse by bron fans and here's why. The year before the heat beat the spurs. Wade scored 20 on 48% and bosh scored 12 on 46%. In 2014 when they lost wade scored 15 on 44% and bosh scored 14 on 55%. Thats a combined difference of only 3 points less but on worse efficiency so the impact is more like 2 points difference.

The wade bosh argument was always a weak one.

Don't think its debatable at all.

Wade scored 5 less points and shot terribly. Plus in the 2013 finals, he averaged a 4 BPM which includes all your production. In the 2014 finals though, Wade averaged -0.3 BPM. That's the difference between a quality star and low level bench player. The impact Kawhi had on Bron doesn't come close to that. The samples are too tiny. And it doesn't answer Miami's horrid defense either.

They were outclassed by a much better team. Point blank.

Roundball_Rock

08-13-2020, 12:15 PM

Don't think its debatable at all.

Wade scored 5 less points and shot terribly. Plus in the 2013 finals, he averaged a 4 BPM which includes all your production. In the 2014 finals though, Wade averaged -0.3 BPM. That's the difference between a quality star and low level bench player. The impact Kawhi had on Bron doesn't come close to that. The samples are too tiny. And it doesn't answer Miami's horrid defense either.

They were outclassed by a much better team. Point blank.

Game score tells a similar story.

2013: Wade 14.9 (3rd), Bosh 12.1 (5th)
2014: Wade 7.9 (9th), Bosh 10.6 (6th)

In 13' Wade had a higher GS than every Spur except Duncan; in 14' six Spurs outpaced Wade and Danny Green was 0.3 behind him. He went from being behind Duncan to being behind Patty Mills.

This is a prime example of BPM>>>>PPG. PPG only tells a tiny part of the story.

Miami without LeBron was not a good team--as they proved the next year. Compare that to Toronto without Kawhi.

Bronbron23

08-13-2020, 12:33 PM

Don't think its debatable at all.

Wade scored 5 less points and shot terribly. Plus in the 2013 finals, he averaged a 4 BPM which includes all your production. In the 2014 finals though, Wade averaged -0.3 BPM. That's the difference between a quality star and low level bench player. The impact Kawhi had on Bron doesn't come close to that. The samples are too tiny. And it doesn't answer Miami's horrid defense either.

They were outclassed by a much better team. Point blank.

Disagree. Wade was worse bosh was better. When you combine the impact as ive already showed ots actually pretty small. A difference of a few points. Id argue kawhis impact defensively was worth more than that.

AirBonner

08-13-2020, 03:01 PM

LeBron played equal or slightly better than 2nd 3-peat MJ. LeBron was just missing MJ’s caliber of sidekicks and his weak ass competition to get the job done.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 09:01 PM

Disagree. Wade was worse bosh was better. When you combine the impact as ive already showed ots actually pretty small. A difference of a few points. Id argue kawhis impact defensively was worth more than that.

You only showed their points though. It wasn't just Wade who played like a bad bench player either. Bosh's play also dipped in the 2014 finals, and he played bad defense.

The argument for Kawhi is definitely weaker. Thru 3, Bron was held without a touch in 35% of all possessions with Kawhi on him. And 25% against all other defenders. Not a big enough edge to give Kawhi lone credit. Bron shot well with Kawhi as his primary defender in G3, and yet Miami still lost by 19.

Wade/Bosh played far worse than in 2013 and that is backed by their overall numbers. Ditto with the Heat's team defense, who couldn't prevent SA from bombing threes.

3ball

08-13-2020, 09:07 PM

Now I have to post what the creators said because you aren't listening to the facts

The boxscore shows points scored but not points prevented, so it shows offense, but not defense:

"There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score (only missing things like screen-setting), but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

Box Plus/Minus is a very good offensive metric, but it struggles some with defense. As mentioned before, when all you have is a box score, you cannot estimate defense very well. In other words--take DBPM with a spoonful of salt."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

No one.. :kobe:

Only Kuniva disputing what the creators of the stat said.. :facepalm:.. they said it's bullshit (the boxscore doesn't capture much defense), and Kuniva said it isn't (aka the boxscore shows that Dumars and Bowen were great defenders)

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 09:11 PM

Whose using "DBPM" to make a defensive argument?

:confusedshrug:

Blk/Stl/DReb are ALL raw numbers. You don't get to pretend they didn't happen. Sorry, no dice.

knicksman

08-13-2020, 09:17 PM

Lebron23

08-13-2020, 09:19 PM

what really happened is that miami lost in 2013 but stern want them to win on the condition that they will give it to spurs the next year thats why lebron quit in game 3. Its the same reason why durant is injured last finals and this season coz kawhi sacrificed himself in 2017 and 2018 to give durant 2 rings.

Excuses, Excuses. 2013 heat were a better team than the 2014 heat. The 2014 miami heat team lacked motivations and hunger after 4 straight trips in the nba finals.

knicksman

08-13-2020, 09:22 PM

Excuses, Excuses. 2013 heat were a better team than the 2014 heat. The 2014 miami heat team lacked motivations and hunger after 4 straight trips in the nba finals.

shut up jeff. fcuk off weirdo

3ball

08-13-2020, 09:23 PM

The argument for Kawhi is definitely weaker. Thru 3, Bron was held without a touch in 35% of all possessions with Kawhi on him. And 25% against all other defenders. Not a big enough edge to give Kawhi lone credit.

^^ Did you read that in an article or something?

So why don't you acknowledge the article from SB Nation that showed the Spurs' primary strategy was exploiting the bad fit between Lebron and Wade.. Neither Lebron nor Wade likes to play the "shooter" role, and this skill deficit was the source of their exploitability, strategic inferiority and ultimately, their inferiority to MJ, Bird, and Kobe.

Bron shot well with Kawhi as his primary defender in G3, and yet Miami still lost by 19.

.

So why didn't lebron score 19 more or have a drtg under 110 (shouldn't be too much to ask)

^^^ that type of scoring increase worked in 2016 to overcome greater odds and turn a series around, but he simply failed in 2014 despite having a defending champion team of multiple HOF's, stars, and good odds

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-13-2020, 09:34 PM

^^ Did you read that in an article or something?

Those are the actual numbers. And it is objective data.

The facts might hurt, but don't run away from them.

So why didn't lebron score 19 more or have a drtg under 110 (shouldn't be too much to ask)

Jordan never did that so why/how would Lebron? And where do those extra possessions come from?

^^^ that worked in 2016 to overcome greater odds, but he simply failed in 2014 despite having a defending champion team of multiple HOF's, stars, and good odds

'16 LeBron averaged 36 points after being down 3-1.

Why expect Bron to do that TWICE when your hero only did it once? Again, Mike only averaged over 36 points in a series, one time.

3ball

08-13-2020, 10:01 PM

Jordan never did that so why/how would Lebron? And where do those extra possessions come from?

Where did the possessions come from in 16', when lebron's scoring average increased 12 points over the last 3 games?

How did the 95' or 96' Bulls absorb Jordan's goat volume back into the mix?.. pippen's scoring barely dipped, so it was all the bit-players that took tiny haircuts of 1-2 points each - and that's how it's supposed to be - an EQUITABLE reduction across the board, not a massive reduction for 1 or 2 key players (which indicates bad fit, aka skill deficit)

Ultimately, there's no pre-set number of possessions, so when someone says that lebron should've played better, this assumes the game would've been different (a different team setting the pace, different teammate contributions, and different game dynamics like offensive rebs)

And again, a scoring increase like that already turned around a series with worse odds, so it would've worked in 14' too

Those are the actual numbers. And it is objective data.

The facts might hurt, but don't run away from them.

So you're a bot that can't process qualitative facts, like the Spurs targeting a skill deficit in Lebron to beat him, nearly twice..

^^^ This is also objective fact, but you ignore it like a bot would.. get out of the basement.. pick up a ball

'16 LeBron averaged 36 points after being down 3-1.

Why expect Bron to do that TWICE when your hero only did it once? Again, Mike only averaged over 36 points in a series, one time.

Jordan 91-93' Finals

36/7/8 on 53%

Jordan averaged 36 over numerous 3-game stretches in the Finals, and also in 2 Finals overall (92', 93')

Mike only averaged over 36 points in a series, one time.

He averaged that for entire playoff runs and has 6 series of 40+

kawhileonard2

08-13-2020, 11:18 PM

He shot 20% FG with me on him that series.

Roundball_Rock

08-13-2020, 11:41 PM

Whose using "DBPM" to make a defensive argument?

:confusedshrug:

Blk/Stl/DReb are ALL raw numbers. You don't get to pretend they didn't happen. Sorry, no dice.

He and his minions (tpols, ImKobe, et. al.) only understand PPG. :lol

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

08-14-2020, 12:14 AM

Where did the possessions come from in 16', when lebron's scoring average increased 12 points over the last 3 games?

How did the 95' or 96' Bulls absorb Jordan's goat volume back into the mix?.. pippen's scoring barely dipped, so it was all the bit-players that took tiny haircuts of 1-2 points each - and that's how it's supposed to be - an EQUITABLE reduction across the board, not a massive reduction for 1 or 2 key players (which indicates bad fit, aka skill deficit)

Ultimately, there's no pre-set number of possessions, so when someone says that lebron should've played better, this assumes the game would've been different (a different team setting the pace, different teammate contributions, and different game dynamics like offensive rebs)

And again, a scoring increase like that already turned around a series with worse odds, so it would've worked in 14' too

All of that longwind YET LeBron's production per possession rivaled '91 Jordan. These over-wordy posts not saying anything are irrelevant. Try again but with facts.

Once more, Lebron's play was not the problem. His second and third options were. Ditto with Miami's team defense. We also know Mike only averaged 36+ one time in the finals.

So you're a bot that can't process qualitative facts, like the Spurs targeting a skill deficit in Lebron to beat him, nearly twice.

Everything you just said was opinion though. Learn the difference between what a fact is.

The numbers and data are on my side, not on yours. Miami's second and third options were outscored by 4 or 5 different Spur players. And their production as a whole was outmatched by a handful of Spur players.

Jordan 91-93' Finals

36/7/8 on 53%

That's what he averaged in 3 combined finals. He only averaged over 36 points in a finals once.

He averaged that for entire playoff runs and has 6 series of 40+

We're talking about the finals, dimwit :oldlol: Once again. Mike only averaged over 36+ in a finals series ONE TIME.

I know that you're desperate for social interaction, but posting lies and spamming the board is weak. Educate yourself.