1991 Scottie Pippen vs 2014 Kawhi Leonars

[Lebron23]

Who was the better finals performer? I have to go with the Scottie Pippen. Better overall stats, and averaged more points than Kawhi.

[3ball]

Kawhi shot 75.3% true shooting in the 14' Finals.

Pippen couldn't do that by himself in a gym, let alone the Finals

[ImKobe]

Kawhi locked up Lebron and outplayed him on the offensive end in 3 straight wins, Pippen could never be as efficient as Leonard was from games 3-5.

[3ball]

Kawhi locked up Lebron and outplayed him on the offensive end in 3 straight wins, Pippen could never be as efficient as Leonard was from games 3-5.
Kawhi averaged 24 during those last 3 games

Pippen never averaged 24 ppg over any 3 game stretch outside the 1st round

Let alone shoot 70% as well

[Axe]

Yet pip still outplayed many of his rivals in the playoffs :eek::facepalm

[3ball]

Yet pip still outplayed many of his rivals in the playoffs :eek::facepalm


Pippen's scoring was either exceeded by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer, or matched with far better efficiency (aka outplayed) in 42% of his playoff series, which are each shown below (33% during championship years or Finals):


................................. PPG.. FG%.. TS.. ORTG

88' Pippen 1st Rd... 10.6.. 47.1.. 49.4.... 96
88' Harper 1st Rd... 17.6.. 47.6.. 50.7.. 100

88' Pippen. 2nd Rd..... 9.4.. 45.8.. 48.5.... 85
88' Dantley 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 50.0.. 58.9.. 117

89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15.0.. 39.7.. 51.0.. 102
89' Nance. 1st Rd... 19.4.. 55.1.. 58.4.. 117

89' Pippen' ECF..... 9.7.. 40.4.. 45.8.... 94
89' Aguirre ECF... 13.3.. 55.8.. 59.8.. 120

90' Pippen ECF..... 16.6.. 42.6.. 52.0.. 102
90' Thomas ECF... 17.6.. 39.6.. 51.5.. 108

92' Pippen 2nd Rd... 16.0.. 40.2.. 49.3.. 106
92' X-Man. 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 49.6.. 52.5.. 106

93' Pippen' 1st Rd... 15.3.. 42.2.. 45.3.. 100
93' K Willis 1st Rd... 16.7.. 45.7.. 58.9.. 117

94' Pippen 2nd Rd... 21.7.. 40.5.. 51.0.. 103
94' Ewing' 2nd Rd.... 22.9.. 53.0.. 58.1.. 113

95' S Pippen 1st Rd... 16.0.. 51.0.. 60.0.. 122 (3rd option behind kukoc)
95' Johnson' 1st Rd... 20.0.. 47.7.. 54.6.. 119

96' Pippen' 2nd Rd... 15.6.. 33.0.. 41.6.. 100
96' Oakley. 2nd Rd... 13.2.. 50.0.. 57.7.... 99

96' Pippen' ECF.. 18.5.. 45.3.. 50.8.. 120
96' Penny. ECF... 25.5.. 46.9.. 55.1.. 108

96' Pippen. Finals... 15.7.. 34.3.. 42.9.. 106
96' S Kemp Finals... 23.3.. 55.1.. 63.3.. 117

97' Pippen. 1st Rd'... 16.7.. 38.6.. 49.3.. 106
97' Howard 1st Rd... 18.7.. 45.3.. 58.6.. 123

97' S Pippen Finals... 20.0.. 3.5 apg.. 42.2.. 54.1.. 101.. 4 clutch pts
97' Stockton Finals... 15.0.. 8.8 apg.. 50.0.. 61.1.. 111.. 12 clutch pts

98' Pippen. ECF... 16.6.. 39.2.. 46.3.. 102
98' R Smits ECF... 16.3.. 55.4.. 62.6.. 119

93' Pippen Finals.... 21.2.. 43.9.. 45.9.... 97
93' Majerle Finals... 17.2.. 42.0.. 58.7.. 128


TLDR - Pippen was outplayed by the opposing 2nd option in 15 of 36 series (42%).. or 8 of 24 during the championship years (33%)... or 2 of 6 Finals (33%).

Btw, the 93' Finals, 95' 2nd Round and 97' ECF weren't included in the final tally even though Pippen was outplayed in those series as well

Ultimately, only the goat can win 6 rings with their 2nd option outplayed at least 1/3 of the time and no 3rd option (outplayed nearly every time)... :confusedshrug:

[insidious301]

91 Pippen. Higher Playoff PER and stronger defensively during an era that allowed you be more physical. Jordan's running mate was basically a better offensive version of 2014 Kawhi.

[tpols]

Kawhi shot 75.3% true shooting in the 14' Finals.

Pippen couldn't do that by himself in a gym, let alone the Finals

:roll:

[3ball]

In addition to better offense than Pippen is capable of (75% ts), Kawhi was primary defender on Lebron, while Pippen did spot duty on Magic (MJ was primary)

[insidious301]

91 Pippen. Higher Playoff PER and stronger defensively during an era that allowed you be more physical. Jordan's running mate was basically a better offensive version of 2014 Kawhi.

I just checked the numbers again. Here's the better and more sophisticated version of Kawhi in the postseason


Playoff Pippen
Higher PER
Higher VORP
Higher WS
Higher BPM
Higher Points

The 90s Bulls couldn't lose with that kind of horsepower.

[Roundball_Rock]

I just checked the numbers again. Here's the better and more sophisticated version of Kawhi in the postseason



The 90s Bulls couldn't lose with that kind of horsepower.

Pippen: 22/9/6 with 3 steals
Kawhi: 14/7/2 with 2 steals

The same people who run around talking about scoring all the time suddenly say 14 PPG>>>22 PPG. :lol These threads are useful for exposing the hypocrisy of insecure MJ stans.

Good point. 91' Pippen was basically 14' Kawhi souped on offense (including averaging 2 ORPG vesus 1 for Kawhi).

[insidious301]

Pippen: 22/9/6 with 3 steals
Kawhi: 14/7/2 with 2 steals

The same people who run around talking about scoring all the time suddenly say 14 PPG>>>22 PPG. :lol These threads are useful for exposing the hypocrisy of insecure MJ stans.

Good point. 91' Pippen was basically 14' Kawhi souped on offense (including averaging 2 ORPG vesus 1 for Kawhi).

Yes that's correct Roundball. 22 versus 14 points is like Tier 1 against Tier 3 scoring. 91 Pippen altogether was just on a higher plateau, and it isn't even debatable. The comparison is a bad joke.

[3ball]

Yes that's correct Roundball. 22 versus 14 points is like Tier 1 against Tier 3 scoring. 91 Pippen altogether was just on a higher plateau, and it isn't even debatable. The comparison is a bad joke.

Bird averaged less than Iverson but is considered a better scorer due to efficiency and shooting - Pippen is the iverson-bricklayer of forwards, so his ppg is disregarded like iverson's

And heck, at least iverson usually led his matchup in scoring and by good margins.. Pippen almost always scored about the same as the opposing 2nd option or less, with FAR worse efficiency

[insidious301]

Bird averaged less than Iverson but is considered a better scorer due to efficiency and shooting - Pippen is the iverson-bricklayer of forwards, so his ppg is disregarded like iverson's

Ironic that you're undervaluing points when that has been your TP since I have posted on here. Pippen basically did everything better, and was a much better scorer on top of that. The numbers were posted so you can look for yourself.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ironic that you're undervaluing points when that has been your TP since I have posted on here.

:roll:

It also is funny they compare Pippen to Iverson or Westbrook when doing things like praising Grant Hill as a scorer for scoring the same on the same efficiency.

The fact is Pippen was a plus shooter from the field relative to the league (105 eFG for his prime, 100 being league average). If they are saying Pippen was Westbrook, they are saying the league was too weak to shoot back when MJ played. All their insincere arguments always boomerang in their faces. :lol

Not peak Pippen but the closest that we have this data for. Compare to the league:

https://a.espncdn.com/photo/2020/0422/pippen96.jpg

Note that he was a threat anywhere on the floor--not a one or two trick pony like less skilled scorers MJ stans like to hype.

[3ball]

Ironic that you're undervaluing points when that has been your TP since I have posted on here. Pippen basically did everything better, and was a much better scorer on top of that. The numbers were posted so you can look for yourself.

Show me a 3-game stretch outside of the 1st Round where Pippen averaged 24 ppg

So how can you say he scored better than 14' Kawhi, when Kawhi averaged 24 on 70% against your goat for games 3-5?

Pippen can't shoot or iso.. aka system player.. :confusedshrug:.

And show me his stats without the triangle.. :facepalm:.

Or compare his peak to Kawhi's or anyone's.. Pippen's peak stats = 1 or 2-time all-star, aka ordinary, aka 05' Larry Hughes

Ultimately, he usually scored about the same or less than the opposing 2nd scorer, with much worse efficiency

[insidious301]

:roll:

It also is funny they compare Pippen to Iverson or Westbrook when doing things like praising Grant Hill as a scorer for scoring the same on the same efficiency.

The fact is Pippen was a plus shooter from the field relative to the league (105 eFG for his prime, 100 being league average). If they are saying Pippen was Westbrook, they are saying the league was too weak to shoot back when MJ played. All their insincere arguments always boomerang in their faces. :lol

Correct again Roundball. Why is Grant Hill something special if they are the sample player as the points suggest? Look at 2014 Kawhi vs 1991 Pippen. 14ppg on 60% true shooting versus 20ppg on 56% true shooting. We know that most Jordan fans would choose the latter, so what are we discussing? Save the mental gymnastics for Hollywood.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi put up 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG in 3 straight wins. Bigger load then Pippen carried relative to Jordan.

Kawhi also led his team in GmSc during two series (2nd round and finals). Pippen led zero times in GmSc.

I would say Kawhi was better. But its close and can go either way. That's what makes Kawhi great, he basically is a Pippen player early in his career and then evolves into a Jordan player later in his career.

[3ball]

Kawhi put up 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG in 3 straight wins. Bigger load then Pippen carried relative to Jordan.

Kawhi also led his team in GmSc during two series (2nd round and finals). Pippen led zero times in GmSc.

I would say Kawhi was better. But its close and can go either way. That's what makes Kawhi great, he basically is a Pippen player early in his career and then evolves into a Jordan player later in his career.

People don't realize how trashy the bulls' cast was after MJ and Pippen

Pippen frequently averaged 20 ppg, yet the bulls' casts were still the lowest-scoring casts ever to win a ring

Everyone was replaceable D-league trash (completely new cast for 2nd three-peat)

[insidious301]

Show me a 3-game stretch outside of the 1st Round where Pippen averaged 24 ppg

So how can you say he scored better than 14' Kawhi, when Kawhi averaged 24 on 70% against your goat for games 3-5?

Pippen can't shoot or iso.. aka system player.. :confusedshrug:.

And show me his stats without the triangle.. :facepalm:.

Or compare his peak to Kawhi's or anyone's.. Pippen's peak stats = 1 or 2-time all-star, aka ordinary, aka 05' Larry Hughes

Ultimately, he usually scored about the same or less than the opposing 2nd scorer, with much worse efficiency

Playoff Pippen averaged 8 more points per game than Kawhi did & on better efficiency. Averaged more points in the 91 finals than Kawhi did in 2014 too. This is while playing Magic who you rank over LeBron. I don't know, but it looks to me there is no argument for Kawhi here. Pick another year maybe?

[3ball]

Playoff Pippen averaged 8 more points per game than Kawhi did & on better efficiency. Averaged more points in the 91 finals than Kawhi did in 2014 too. This is while playing Magic who you rank over LeBron. I don't know, but it looks to me there is no argument for Kawhi here. Pick another year maybe?

3rd year Kawhi (14') caught up to 4th ywar Pippen (91')..... IN THE FINALS!!!... right in front of our eyes!!..

And infact blew by him onto the Kobe/Wade/Lebron caliber of 1st options (24 on 70% and better than that ever since)

He's never looked back, while Pippen remained somewhere overlooking the Draymond level of player

[Roundball_Rock]

Correct again Roundball. Why is Grant Hill something special if they are the sample player as the points suggest? Look at 2014 Kawhi vs 1991 Pippen. 14ppg on 60% true shooting versus 20ppg on 56% true shooting. We know that most Jordan fans would choose the latter, so what are we discussing? Save the mental gymnastics for Hollywood.

It never ends, does it? Non-stop disingenuousness, hypocrisy, and even lying. All because they are insecure about MJ.

The bottom line is if Pippen sucked his era sucked because only three players made more all-NBA first teams in the 90's. For perspective:

All-NBA First Teams (Career)

Pippen 3
Payton/Miller/Drexler/Kemp/Johnson/Richmond/Worthy/Dumars 3

Yet Pippen sucked but less accomplished players were awesome--even though Pippen achieved more in the very same era. :lol

[insidious301]

3rd year Kawhi caught up to 91' Pippen..... IN THE FINALS!!!... right in front of our eyes... And infact blew by him onto the Kobe/Wade/Lebron caliber of 1st options

He's never looked back, while Pippen remained somewhere overlooking the Draymond level of player

How when Pippen had better numbers? I posted them for everyone to see. Take another look in case you missed it. Pippen beats Kawhi in basically all cumulative metrics. And in the finals, averaged more points. You profess to love points, but Pippen beat Kawhi there too. Lets move on man. In fairness you might find a better argument.

[3ball]

How when Pippen had better numbers? I posted them for everyone to see. Take another look in case you missed it. Pippen beats Kawhi in basically all cumulative metrics. And in the finals, averaged more points. You profess to love points but Pippen beat Kawhi there too. Lets move on man. In fairness you may find a better argument.

Pippen never averaged 24 on 70% so I don't know what "better numbers" you're referring to

If you're referring to overall playoff averages, those are moot because Kawhi was younger and surpassed Pippen in those Finals

again, the 14' Finals saw Kawhi reach that Kobe/KD/Lebron level that he's on right now, while Pippen has never played on that level.. Kawhi reached that level in the last 3 games and never looked back, while Pippen remained on that Draymond level of "glue guy" role player level

[Roundball_Rock]

How when Pippen had better numbers? I posted them for everyone to see. Take another look in case you missed it. Pippen beats Kawhi in basically all cumulative metrics. And in the finals, averaged more points. You profess to love points, but Pippen beat Kawhi there too. Lets move on man. In fairness you might find a better argument.

The argument that 14' Kawhi=prime Pippen is very damning in that it, yet again, implies MJ was in a weak era. 14' Kawhi was a role player so 2ball is saying 14' Kawhi would be a superstar in the 90's. There is only one conclusion to draw (if we are to believe 2ball's version of events).

Similarly, 2ball brought up Draymond. Draymond was a top 15 player in this era (briefly) and peaked at 14 PPG and was down to 8 PPG as a first option (Pippen was 22). He is saying implicitly, like his followers in last week's thread, that Draymond would be a MVP candidate, first team all-NBA, etc. if he played in the 90's. Once again the conclusion demanded is the 90's were a weak era.

This may be the funniest things about the Pippen crusade. If Pippen sucked that means the era was trash since a scrub was one of the most accomplished players of that era. They are too frothing out the mouth to grasp it but the implication is inescapable.

[insidious301]

Pippen never averaged 24 on 70% so I don't know what "better numbers" you're referring to

Pippen averaged more points in the finals than Kawhi did. Pippen also averaged more playoff points than Kawhi. Not sure what you mean, but you better look at your numbers again.


If you're referring to overall playoff averages, those are moot because Kawhi was younger and literally surpassed Pippen in those Finals - again, he played on that Kobe/Lebron/MJ/KD level that he's on right now, while Pippen has never played on that level

Oh okay. So now you want to ignore overall playoff averages, but cherry-pick 1-2 game stretches? Nobody does that, so you need to come up with something else.

[3ball]

The argument that 14' Kawhi=prime Pippen is very damning in that it, yet again, implies MJ was in a weak era. 14' Kawhi was a role player so 2ball is saying 14' Kawhi would be a superstar in the 90's. There is only one conclusion to draw (if we are to believe 2ball's version of events).

Similarly, 2ball brought up Draymond. Draymond was a top 15 player in this era (briefly) and peaked at 14 PPG and was down to 8 PPG as a first option (Pippen was 22). He is saying implicitly, like his followers in last week's thread, that Draymond would be a MVP candidate, first team all-NBA, etc. if he played in the 90's. Once again the conclusion demanded is the 90's were a weak era.

This may be the funniest things about the Pippen crusade. If Pippen sucked that means the era was trash since a scrub was one of the most accomplished players of that era. They are too frothing out the mouth to grasp it but the implication is inescapable.

Everyone saw it... :facepalm:

In the last 3 games of the 14' Finals, Kawhi reached the Kobe/KD/Lebron level of 1st option and hasn't looked back ever since, while Pippen remained on that Draymond level of "glue guy" role player type..

So 14' Kawhi (fmvp) > any version of Pippen, let alone 91' Pippen (who was a nobody like 19 Siakam)

Carry on

[3ball]

Everyone saw it... :facepalm:

In the last 3 games of the 14' Finals, Kawhi reached the Kobe/KD/Lebron level of 1st option and hasn't looked back ever since, while Pippen remained on that Draymond level of "glue guy" role player type..

So 14' Kawhi (fmvp) > any version of Pippen, let alone 91' Pippen (who was a nobody like 19 Siakam)

Carry on




^^^ Ok Mods... lock it up.. this post shut up Round ball

3ball over Roundball per the standard

/thread

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen averaged more points in the finals than Kawhi did. Pippen also averaged more playoff points than Kawhi. Not sure what you mean, but you better look at your numbers again.



Oh okay. So now you want to ignore overall playoff averages, but cherry-pick 1-2 game stretches? Nobody does that, so you need to come up with something else.

:lol The goal posts are ever moving with Team Jordan.

Kawhi was 18/4/3 in the first two games combined. If Pippen ever did that in the finals we would never hear the end of it. :oldlol:

[insidious301]

^^^ Ok Mods... lock it up.. this post shut up Round ball

3ball over Roundball per the standard

/thread

But you resorted to a 2-3 game sample, and ignored the main course. That's 78% of the equation! Try another year to make things less lopsided.

[3ball]

But you resorted to a 2-3 game sample, and ignored the main course. That's 78% of the equation! Try another year to make things less lopsided.

The 3 game sample is enough because Kawhi never looked back - he was permanently on that level of big-time 1st options that he remains to this day

Otoh, Pippen never reached that level, so he was never as good as fmvp kawhi

24 ppg... 69% fg... 82% ts.. goat 1st option-level... Kawhi never looked back

[insidious301]

The 3 game sample is enough because Kawhi never looked back - he was permanently on that level of big-time 1st options that he is now

Otoh, Pippen never reached that level, so he was never as good as fmvp kawhi

24 ppg... 69% fg... 82% ts.. goat 1st option-level

Its not enough to overthrow a the other 20 games. That isn't how reality operates. If it did,there would dozens of outliers "greater" than the teams superstar. We cannot ignore the rest of your play. And in Kawhi's case his play indicates that he was not on Pippen's caliber.

[Roundball_Rock]

But you resorted to a 2-3 game sample, and ignored the main course. That's 78% of the equation! Try another year to make things less lopsided.

He can't be taken seriously. He has followers like tpols, IMKobe and others but even a lot of MJ fans consider him a joke. Then he wonders why he doesn't get responses--people don't read many of his posts (neither do I).


Its not enough to overthrow a the other 20 games. That isn't how reality operates. If it did,there would dozens of outliers "greater" than the teams superstar.

It would be amusing to apply his 2-3 game logic to MJ stan favorites.

GS=game score.

Kukoc vs. Miller (Games 4-7 98' ECF)

Miller 15/1/2 40% 9.7 GS
Kukoc 17/4/3 63% 15.3 GS

Kukoc vs. Stockton vs. Rodman (Games 3-6 98' Finals)

Stockton 6/3/9 34% 6.5 GS
Kukoc 17/4/3 58% 14.1 GS
Rodman 4/8/1 50% 5.3 GS

These aren't 2 game sample sizes either.

[3ball]

Its not enough to overthrow a the other 20 games. That isn't how reality operates. If it did,there would dozens of outliers "greater" than the teams superstar. We cannot ignore the rest of your play. And in Kawhi's case his play indicates that he was not on Pippen's caliber.

Yeah it works that way (3 games being enough) if Pippen never reached that level and Kawhi never returned to his prior level

And that's what happened - Kawhi remained at that premier FMVP level (and compared to the likes of Kobe/Wade/KD/Lebron), while Pippen never reached that level... Therefore, June 2014 Kawhi (and going forward) was better than Pippen ever was

[insidious301]

Yeah it works that way (3 games being enough) if Pippen never reached that level and Kawhi never returned to his prior level

And that's what happened - Kawhi remained at that premier FMVP level (and compared to the likes of Kobe/Wade/KD/Lebron), while Pippen never reached that level... Therefore, June 2014 Kawhi (and going forward) was better than Pippen ever was

No it does not. Otherwise you get results like Roundball just posted. The Spurs & Heat played a BO7 not BO3. You don't get to make things up when reality judges you differently.


He can't be taken seriously. He has followers like tpols, IMKobe and others but even a lot of MJ fans consider him a joke. Then he wonders why he doesn't get responses--people don't read many of his posts (neither do I).

Easily one of the most insane things I've seen posted here. He is lucky I'm giving him my time. Might have to re-think that now. To be fair to other MJ fans however, I haven't seen them resort to such idiocy. I could be wrong there but that take is next-level bad.

[Roundball_Rock]

Easily one of the most insane things I've seen posted here. He is lucky I'm giving him my time. Might have to re-think that now. To be fair to other MJ fans however, I haven't seen them resort to such idiocy. I could be wrong there but that take is next-level bad.

Yeah he definitely is the most extreme. :lol


No it does not. Otherwise you get results like Roundball just posted. The Spurs & Heat played a BO7 not BO3. You don't get to make things up when reality judges you differently.

Here is another example of how cherry picking skews things (using 3 game sets).

Games 3-5: Pippen 22/12/6 20.3 GS, Kawhi 24/9/2 23.8 GS
Games 1-3: Pippen 19/8/7 14.8 GS, Kawhi 16/3/2 11.6 GS

Use the whole damn series. :oldlol:

How about some other series from the same year?

Bulls vs. Knicks (3 games): Pippen 20/9/5 17.7 GS, Ewing 17/10/2 8.9 GS
Bulls vs. Sixers (games 2-5): Pippen 23/10/6 20.1 GS, Barkley 24/10/6 21.6 GS
Bulls vs. Pistons (games 1-2): Pippen 20/8/4 19.7 GS, Isiah 11/3/7 7.5 GS
Bulls vs. Lakers (games 3-5): Pippen 22/12/6 20.3 GS, Magic 20/8/14 21.3 GS

This is cherry picking games outside of the Knicks series. Pippen outplayed Ewing in the 3 game series. He outplayed Isiah in the whole series--I just cherry picked Isiah's two worst games (4 game series).

Pippen basically was equal to peak Barkley in the Sixers series if you exclude Game 1.

NBA finals? Pippen on par with prime Magic if you cherry pick three games.

How about Kawhi in the 14' playoffs before those three games? 13/6/2/2 10.5 GS across 20 games. Pippen was 22/9/6/3 19.1 GS across 17 games for the entire playoff run--no need to cherry pick three games.

[insidious301]

Yeah he definitely is the most extreme. :lol



Here is another example of how cherry picking skews things (using 3 game sets).

Games 3-5: Pippen 22/12/6 20.3 GS, Kawhi 24/9/2 23.8 GS
Games 1-3: Pippen 19/8/7 14.8 GS, Kawhi 16/3/2 11.6 GS

Use the whole damn series. :oldlol:

How about some other series from the same year?

Bulls vs. Knicks (3 games): Pippen 20/9/5 17.7 GS, Ewing 17/10/2 8.9 GS
Bulls vs. Sixers (games 2-5): Pippen 23/10/6 20.1 GS, Barkley 24/10/6 21.6 GS
Bulls vs. Pistons (games 1-2): Pippen 20/8/4 19.7 GS, Isiah 11/3/7 7.5 GS
Bulls vs. Lakers (games 3-5): Pippen 22/12/6 20.3 GS, Magic 20/8/14 21.3 GS

This is cherry picking games outside of the Knicks series. Pippen outplayed Ewing in the 3 game series. He outplayed Isiah in the whole series--I just cherry picked Isiah's two worst games (4 game series).

Pippen basically was equal to peak Barkley in the Sixers series if you exclude Game 1.

NBA finals? Pippen on par with prime Magic if you cherry pick three games.

How about Kawhi in the 14' playoffs before those three games? 13/6/2/2 10.5 GS across 20 games. Pippen was 22/9/6/3 19.1 GS across 17 games for the entire playoff run--no need to cherry pick three games.

You crushed his talking point in seconds. Although to be fair we knew it was idiotic to begin with. Forgot if it was you, kuniva or phoenix, but one of you made a great point about small sample size in the playoffs. They're small as it is. Now imagine reducing that by 78%. So it isn't just ignorant, but wild!

[Roundball_Rock]

You crushed his talking point in seconds. Although to be fair we knew it was idiotic to begin with. Forgot if it was you, kuniva or phoenix, but one of you made a great point about small sample size in the playoffs. They're small as it is. Now imagine reducing that by 78%. So it isn't just ignorant, but wild!

I have talked about small sample sizes in the playoffs and Kuniva small sample sizes in general. The larger the sample size, the more reliable the data. People go overboard with the playoff stuff, especially since players don't face the same teams. It also penalizes players whose teams have the most success since the deeper you go in the playoffs the tougher the defenses will be.

[insidious301]

I have talked about small sample sizes in the playoffs and Kuniva small sample sizes in general. The larger the sample size, the more reliable the data. People go overboard with the playoff stuff, especially since players don't face the same teams. It also penalizes players whose teams have the most success since the deeper you go in the playoffs the tougher the defenses will be.

I think the playoffs are important for separating contenders from pretenders. Your overall point is a good one however. Posters using first round series and 3 game samples are selling themselves short.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think the playoffs are important for separating contenders from pretenders.

I agree. We just have to take it into context. Look at the PG thread from last week. People were laughably comparing numbers against a defense with a 111 dRTG with one with a 98 dRTG as "apples to apples." We know what the agenda was but still.

[97 bulls]

I think the playoffs are important for separating contenders from pretenders. Your overall point is a good one however. Posters using first round series and 3 game samples are selling themselves short.

They have no choice when that's all they're worth

[97 bulls]

This argument is preposterous. Only a fool would argue a players worth based on 3 friggn games.

[bigbrownschaub]

give me ka-k-kwhy leonard b. jordan made pippen, kwhy a lone wolf.

[Roundball_Rock]

This argument is preposterous. Only a fool would argue a players worth based on 3 friggn games.

They can never do an honest, complete review of data. Here is the prime BPM for superstars, stars, and sidekicks from Pippen's era (look at the six sidekicks in a row at the end of the list).

90’s Stars Prime BPM

Jordan 87’-96’: 11.1
Robinson 90’-98’: 8.7
Stockton 89’-98’: 7.8
Barkley 87’-96’: 7.1
Shaq 94’-05’: 6.6
Drexler 88’-95’: 6.5
Pippen 91’-98’: 6.0
Malone 88’-99’: 6.0
Hakeem 86’-97’: 5.5
Price 89’-94’: 5.4
Hill 95’-00’: 5.2
Payton 94’-02’: 4.9
Wilkins 86’-94’: 4.5
Porter 89’-93’: 4.3
Miller 90’-00’: 4.2
Hardaway 91’-98’: 4.1
Ewing 88’-97’: 4.0
Mullin 89’-95’: 3.7
Johnson 89’-97’: 3.5
Mourning 94’-00’: 3.2
Worthy 86’-92’: 2.8
Daughtery 88’-94’: 2.4
Mutumbo 92’-02’: 2.0
Kemp 93’-98’: 2.0
Richmond 89’-98’: 1.7
Starks 93’-96’: 1.6
Dumars 89’-97’: 1.2
Smits 94’-99’: 0.8
Thorpe 87’-94’: 0.6
Elliott 92’-96’: 0.6
Willis 87’-95’: -1.0

Pippen sucks, doe.

[StrongLurk]

Just 3ball providing more evidence that the 90's Bulls would win zero chips in the 80's, 2000's, and 2010's. Pippen was SUCH a weak second option and the rest of the team was even more putrid. 0 Rings outside of the 90's in the modern era.

[Roundball_Rock]

Just 3ball providing more evidence that the 90's Bulls would win zero chips in the 80's, 2000's, and 2010's. Pippen was SUCH a weak second option and the rest of the team was even more putrid. 0 Rings outside of the 90's in the modern era.

:lol It is always fun when MJ stan agendas collide. They are so driven by hate they fail to grasp it.

My favorite is the Bulls were a bunch of scrubs from 1991-1993 and 1995-1998 (MJ had to win by himself) but magically became the best roster in the league in 1994--so strong they should have won the chip with a scrub replacing MJ. The only way to square this absurdity is to believe MJ turned these great players into pumpkins when he was around--and this is supposed to be an argument for MJ. :oldlol: