Lillard vs Iverson

[Phoenix]

This isn't a question of who has the greater legacy or who's ranked higher. It's a 'who is the better player' prime for prime. Dame is 30 and eight seasons into the league. I think it's fair to say we're in the midst of seeing his peak right now. 30/8/4 on 46/40/89% splits( 62% TS). Let's not forget that 6 game stretch in January when he averaged 49/10/7 on 55/57/92%. 3 of the last 4 games 45,51, 61. When this guy cooks he burns down the entire kitchen. He's not dropping Harden ppg numbers but he's clearly the other guy *right now* that you aren't blinking an eye if he drops a fifty piece on you. Yes, his league is easier to score in which inevitably enters every conversation of modern perimeter scorers compared to....everyone else.

Prompted by this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJEJ08f2RQY

[Whoah10115]

Probably have to go with Iverson, tho I don't want to.

But Lillard is pretty special.

[insidious301]

Made a comment about on this recently, Phoenix. Had no idea about this video and I actually listen to some podcasts from that network. After Lillard's 61-point performance, I asked posters which "pointguard" all time was a better scorer than Lillard? I know there are a handful on that level but actually better? Not seeing it. I witnessed him eliminating Harden from the playoffs at the buzzer. PG and Westbrook last year at the buzzer. The multiple 40 & 50 games this year, and then these consecutive 50 point games (the second being a 60). He is one of a kind. And would be during any era.

[tontoz]

Iverson was an athletic freak in his prime. For guys of similar size they were very different as players. Lillard is more skilled and a much better shooter.

I would take Lillard because i value scoring efficiency. Iverson shot a lot and not very well.

[Lion's pride]

D AMA, all day people don't realize how much more important shooting is and he is the shooting God compared to Allen Iverson scoring ability

[Kblaze8855]

The difference between the league a guard who peaked 99-04 or so played in and one peaking now is too great for me to even care about this comparison. I watch this shit with multiple guys having just....downright laughable stat lines every week and I can’t make a fair comparison to the one man army era of 78-83 games and lineups with 2 traditional bigs and a non shooting 6’9” 3. Lillard is never in his life gonna suit up next to a Kevin Ollie at the 2 who made 9 threes in a 12 season career or Eric Snow who only made as many as ten in two seasons. People clown Rondo who made more than Eric Snows career total in individual seasons.

This league is not that league and no matter what else we bring up in the comparison it comes down to that. I can’t even imagine what prime AI would do if you illegalize off ball contact, whistle everything on drives, and put 4 shooters around him with both teams running all game. He might average 15 free throws.

I don’t even know where to begin the comparison with the leagues that different in what they allow(by design) it’s guards to do.

I know guys like Luka and Dame are nice as hell. But I watch in a 6 day period Lula drop 36/19/14, 40/11/8, and 34/20/12 while in the same time Dame has 45 then back to back games of 51 and 61 I have to be fair to the guys they get compared to from 20 years ago.


AI, Kobe, Mcgrady, and so on....

They simply we’re not given this perfect a situation to work with and it makes the whole business of comparisons complicated.

[Real14]

This is f.ucking blasphemy! It's Iverson. :coleman::biggums:

[tontoz]

This league is not that league and no matter what else we bring up in the comparison it comes down to that. I can’t even imagine what prime AI would do if you illegalize off ball contact, whistle everything on drives, and put 4 shooters around him with both teams running all game. He might average 15 free throws.

.

Iverson was in the league when they changed the hand check rule which led to Nash winning MVPs. Iverson averaged 33 ppg with the best efficiency of his career in 05-06 right after the rule change.

Still wasn't a good jump shooter though. No rules change can help him there.

[tpols]

Iverson was in the league when they changed the hand check rule which led to Nash winning MVPs. Iverson averaged 33 ppg with the best efficiency of his career in 05-06 right after the rule change.

Still wasn't a good jump shooter though. No rules change can help him there.

Yup... he shot 39% in the playoffs with denver after the rule changes allowed every guard to put up huge numbers. The simple fact of the matter is he was a low IQ player that was often out of control, while Dame is the opposite.

[NBAGOAT]

Yup... he shot 39% in the playoffs with denver after the rule changes allowed every guard to put up huge numbers. The simple fact of the matter is he was a low IQ player that was often out of control, while Dame is the opposite.

People don’t see it from the eye test but guys went to the line a lot more those years than they do now and scored the same % in the paint. The increase in 3 pointers has come from mostly the decrease in long 2.

The cpswing or Kevin martins go to move used to be a shooting foul and that helped a few stars. Freedom of movement does help offensive guys again but teams are just so focused on not fouling now, would rather give up layups sometimes.

[tpols]

People don’t see it from the eye test but guys went to the line a lot more those years than they do now and scored the same % in the paint. The increase in 3 pointers has come from mostly the decrease in long 2.

The cpswing or Kevin martins go to move used to be a shooting foul and that helped a few stars. Freedom of movement does help offensive guys again but teams are just so focused on not fouling now, would rather give up layups sometimes.

The thing is in the regular seasons he was nice... 25+ ppg on 45%+ shooting. But every year in the playoffs he gets locked up and team destroyed. This was playing with Melo and JR smith, two great shooters/spacers under new hands off rules.

[rawimpact]

Stupid threads

You are comparing Iverson, who pretty much was the only offensive player for his team to Lillard who has three offensive all-star options? I remember teams doubling and tripling iverson and he'd pass out to Raja Bell, Aaron Mckie or flat face snow? Cmon man

[NBAGOAT]

The thing is in the regular seasons he was nice... 25+ ppg on 45%+ shooting. But every year in the playoffs he gets locked up and team destroyed. This was playing with Melo and JR smith, two great shooters/spacers under new hands off rules.

Yea everyone saw two great scorers and thought they be contenders but it just didn’t really work

[Phoenix]

Stupid threads

You are comparing Iverson, who pretty much was the only offensive player for his team to Lillard who has three offensive all-star options? I remember teams doubling and tripling iverson and he'd pass out to Raja Bell, Aaron Mckie or flat face snow? Cmon man

The thread was prompted by the video drop I posted in the OP. Before that I didn't really have any thoughts but I figured it made for some conversation that didn't revolve around the same 3-4 people this board is obsessed over. If it's a stupid thread I don't recall anyone holding a gun to your head to enter it or entertain the topic.

[Kblaze8855]

The hand check rule was nothing compared to the freedom of movement rules and the changes in style. We all thought it was insane in 06. This shit here has changed the whole standard. Between the pace, rules, no bigs, and stretched floors guards have never had it better. We just thought it couldn’t get any easier watching Nash dribble through lanes. Now we have Westbrook doing 32/11/11 and a triple double for 3 years in a row, Trae Young doing numbers nobody but Tiny Archibald ever did, Luka doing Bird shit in his second year, Harden doing 34-35 a game back to back years, Giannis breaking PER records as a face up big playing outside, and Dame about to pass Jordan and Kobe both in 60 point games.

Jordan’s 29 on 23 shots a game is like Bradley Beal shit right now. These days and the 60s just don’t justify direct comparisons.

The assist numbers in the 80s west were kinda weird for a while too but generally?

Today and the 60s seem like the greatest outliers far as what the leagues allowed its stars to do individually.

Comparing any of them to late 90s early 2000s guys just seems tough.

Kobe and those guys played a whole other game.

[Shogon]

Prime for prime, peak for peak?

Iverson, lmao. Next.

[Kblaze8855]

So apparently Harden, Westbrook, and Trae are the only 29/9 players in history other than Tiny Archibald who did it almost 50 years ago and played 46 minutes a game to do it. We see Trae doing 30/10 and it’s not even worth reporting.

Im not acting like all these guys aren’t monster talents now.

Im just saying...I don’t know where to start the comparisons when I know most of this wouldn’t be possible in the leagues we are comparing players from.

[tpols]

If you gave Iverson modern day 4 corner 3pt spacing ala the Bucks or Mavs or Rockets, I'm sure he would put up devastating regular season numbers. The problem comes in the playoffs when the refs start to back up off the touch foul rules a bit, and teams start to scheme a way to beat you, especially when you're trying to one man army it. Throw doubles and misdirections defensively... Iverson was never a guy to make the perfect decision. You could throw a bunch of doubles at him, and he might try to just "beat" them instead of making the simple pass to the open man. He had that I need to dominate mindset, not a Dirk or CP3 or Duncan mindset of just executing the best decision possible when confronted with pressure. And I do believe that would do him in now just like it did back then.

[tontoz]

The hand check rule was nothing compared to the freedom of movement rules and the changes in style. We all thought it was insane in 06. This shit here has changed the whole standard. Between the pace, rules, no bigs, and stretched floors guards have never had it better. We just thought it couldn’t get any easier watching Nash dribble through lanes. Now we have Westbrook doing 32/11/11 and a triple double for 3 years in a row, Trae Young doing numbers nobody but Tiny Archibald ever did, Luka doing Bird shit in his second year, Harden doing 34-35 a game back to back years, Giannis breaking PER records as a face up big playing outside, and Dame about to pass Jordan and Kobe both in 60 point games.

Jordan’s 29 on 23 shots a game is like Bradley Beal shit right now. These days and the 60s just don’t justify direct comparisons.

The assist numbers in the 80s west were kinda weird for a while too but generally?

Today and the 60s seem like the greatest outliers far as what the leagues allowed its stars to do individually.

Comparing any of them to late 90s early 2000s guys just seems tough.

Kobe and those guys played a whole other game.

You are just making crap up now. Beal never had a season even remotely comparable to Bulls MJ.

Iverson wasn't a good jump shooter. Period. Now that teams are more focused on efficiency they would have less patience with a guy who took a ton of shots with weak efficiency.

Some of the numbers now are less about playing style and more about pace of play which can be normalized by looking at per 100 possession numbers.

[Marchesk]

Iverson wasn't a good jump shooter. Period. Now that teams are more focused on efficiency they would have less patience with a guy who took a ton of shots with weak efficiency.

Westbrook?

[NBAGOAT]

If you gave Iverson modern day 4 corner 3pt spacing ala the Bucks or Mavs or Rockets, I'm sure he would put up devastating regular season numbers. The problem comes in the playoffs when the refs start to back up off the touch foul rules a bit, and teams start to scheme a way to beat you, especially when you're trying to one man army it. (see Giannis vs Toronto) Throw doubles and misdirections defensively... Iverson was never a guy to make the perfect decision. You could throw a bunch of doubles at him, and he might try to just "beat" them instead of making the simple pass to the open man. He had that I need to dominate mindset, not a Dirk or CP3 or Duncan mindset of just executing the best decision possible when confronted with pressure. And I do believe that would do him in now just like it did back then.

I don’t think you have much of a point here when lillard has playoff issues of his own even with some clutch shots Pelicans destroyed him with traps, just couldn’t make the right pass. Gs and den did a nice job last year too but nurkic might’ve countered that strategy pretty well

[tpols]

I don’t think you have much of a point here when lillard has playoff issues of his own even with some clutch shots Pelicans destroyed him with traps, just couldn’t make the right pass. Gs and den did a nice job last year too but nurkic might’ve countered that strategy pretty well

I never said Dame was much better than him. He was definitely in more control, but Iverson was a far better athlete. Allen Iverson is perhaps the quickest fastest player to ever play the game. He was lightning fast. Dame really isn't even that fast. He produces by just carefully controlling the rock, executing offense at a cerebral pace off the PnR, and when needed taking and making big balls 3pt shots. I do think he's better, but not by much because Iverson had more talent. Dame has more skill.

[NBAGOAT]

Westbrook?

Westbrook makes up for it with how often he attacks the rim and creates an open shot for role players. His 3 is also so bad the rockets rather him take some bad jumpers inside the arc. A high usage guard can’t only score from one area of the court, that’s too easy to defend.

[Kblaze8855]

You are just making crap up now. Beal never had a season even remotely comparable to Bulls MJ.

Iverson wasn't a good jump shooter. Period. Now that teams are more focused on efficiency they would have less patience with a guy who took a ton of shots with weak efficiency.

Some of the numbers now are less about playing style and more about pace of play which can be normalized by looking at per 100 possession numbers.

Not basketball comparable. Which was obviously the point.

Far as patience? The nba has not been so forgiving for bad shots in my life. Guys literally miss 30 footers with time on the clock with no consequence because the spacing from making the opponent defend such a shot is more valuable than any single make or miss.

They would give AI 3 shooters and a rebounder and let him run wild.

The leagues were too different to do anything but wild speculation. That 99-05 East he peaked in compared to this shit?

Forget AI. Whoever from then you are talking about would be in heaven. AI, Tmac, Kobe, Ray Allen....hell Stephon Marbury.

The nba set out to make the those types unstoppable and they pulled it off.

[Phoenix]

I probably shouldn't have referenced Dame's numbers in my OP because this is clearly a league built for talented guards and wings to post crazy numbers. But is there any way to even draw comparisons between relative greatness ( how good they were within the context of their own time) or even comparing skillsets ( with the caveat that even application of skills are influenced by what the rules allow you to do). Which guy 'contextually' gives you a better chance of winning (taking into account that Iverson never won anything and Dame's book is still being written)? Or do we just say f.uck it and wall off everyone from say 2015 onwards and don't even bother with these kinds of conversations?

[Marchesk]

IOr do we just say f.uck it and wall off everyone from say 2015 onwards and don't even bother with these kinds of conversations?

It's what ESPN does with 60s stats:

https://i.postimg.cc/B6KyXnGY/ESPN-Since-Merger.png

We can say at least Kobe would take serious advantage of today's game.

[tpols]

It's what ESPN does with 60s stats:

https://i.postimg.cc/B6KyXnGY/ESPN-Since-Merger.png

We can say at least Kobe would take serious advantage of today's game.

Kobe would be totally unfair in today's game.

Him and MJ never did the whole let me dribble for 15 seconds of every shotclock at the top of the key for a PnR with four corners spacing though. It's a sub optimal way to play the game, but their productions and efficiencies with that would be even more mind boggling. If they didn't care about not blowing their load in the regular season and saving some juice for the playoffs, they'd be putting up a 45-50 ppg seasons.

Or win by so much they have to sit out 2nd halves like 2016 Chef so they couldn't get the numbers anyway unless they statpadded them in garbage time.

[tontoz]

Westbrook?

Westbrook is a good comparison. However WB is bigger and stronger. He can overpower guys at times. Iverson couldn't do that.

[Whoah10115]

You are just making crap up now. Beal never had a season even remotely comparable to Bulls MJ.

Iverson wasn't a good jump shooter. Period. Now that teams are more focused on efficiency they would have less patience with a guy who took a ton of shots with weak efficiency.

Some of the numbers now are less about playing style and more about pace of play which can be normalized by looking at per 100 possession numbers.

The guy saying Iverson couldn't shoot is talking about making up crap?

[Kblaze8855]

He’s talking about shooting percentages. You won’t get him to delve into offensive ability much further than that. That’s his thing.

[tontoz]

Not basketball comparable. Which was obviously the point.

Far as patience? The nba has not been so forgiving for bad shots in my life. Guys literally miss 30 footers with time on the clock with no consequence because the spacing from making the opponent defend such a shot is more valuable than any single make or miss.

They would give AI 3 shooters and a rebounder and let him run wild.

The leagues were too different to do anything but wild speculation. That 99-05 East he peaked in compared to this shit?

Forget AI. Whoever from then you are talking about would be in heaven. AI, Tmac, Kobe, Ray Allen....hell Stephon Marbury.

The nba set out to make the those types unstoppable and they pulled it off.


The guys taking 30 footers are practicing 30 footers and can actually make them at a reasonable rate.

Having a primary ball handler who shoots a lot but not well would be a bit of a handicap in today's league. I am not surprised that OKC did so well this year without Westbrook.

[tontoz]

The guy saying Iverson couldn't shoot is talking about making up crap?

He compared Beal to MJ as if their numbers are comparable in any way. They aren't.

Iverson's jumper was weak. It would be worse now relative to today's players.

He was great at beating guys off the dribble and finishing inside but if he took a jumper that was a win for the defense.

[Lebron23]

Iverson actually improved his efficiency after the nba changed some rules in the 2005-06 nba season. He scored 33 points on 45 Fg% as a 30 years old. Iverson was actually very efficient when he was taking less shots in his first 2 years in the league.