2014 wade/bosh excuse exposed

[Bronbron23]

2013 wade and bosh combined for 32 points a game on 47% shooting.

2014 wade and bosh combined for 29 points a game on 49% shooting.


With efficiency taken into account thats basically a difference of about 2 points. Yeah wade was worse but bosh was actually better so the difference was miniscule. The heat didn't lose because of wade and bosh. They lost because kawhi's impact on lebron naturally had an impact on the heats offense as well. No its not all of lebrons fault. Yeah Wade could of definitely played better and the coach could of made better adjustments but this was a huge reason why they struggled offensively and lost.

[NBAGOAT]

Wades and Bosh’s efficiency was actually better in 14 but they needed to be better since Miami’s defense got destroyed. 109 ortg in 13 to 120 in 14. Obviously they like lebron played a part in it. Also sometimes nothing you can when a team shoots 47% from 3. A good shooting team can’t shoot that well even if every 3 is wide open

[Manny98]

LeBron literally averaged 28 off 68% TS%, he deserves zero blame for what happened in 2014

His cast was absolute garbage that year and the Spurs were red hot offensively

Anyone that pins 2014 on Lebron is a deranged hater

[Roundball_Rock]

Why does the MJ crowd boil every player down to scoring? :confusedshrug:

Re Wade, look at what Kuniva noted in the thread that led to the OP (bold added):


Wade scored 5 less points and shot terribly. Plus in the 2013 finals, he averaged a 4 BPM which includes all your production. In the 2014 finals though, Wade averaged -0.3 BPM. That's the difference between a quality star and low level bench player. The impact Kawhi had on Bron doesn't come close to that. The samples are too tiny. And it doesn't answer Miami's horrid defense either.

[Phoenix]

We can pick the bones out of Wade and Bosh's scoring between 2013 and 2014 but it's an oversimplification boiling it down to that. These are the field goal/3 point/ORtg splits for the Spurs during the 2014 playoffs:

vs Dallas 50/38% 113
vs Portland 49/40% 113
vs OKC 46/40% 114
vs Miami 53/47% 121

I don't think any prior version of the Heat offensively ( meaning the 2011-13 teams) overcome the 2014 Heat defense allowing the Spurs to go nuclear shooting the ball. Hell, Wade could have been in 2011 form and the Heat aren't winning. I said this in another thread but if you gonna let a team drop those kinds of offensive numbers, you better be the 2017 Warriors.

[Gray GOAT]

Imagine two, if we were to believe the haters, apparent superstars combining for 29 points and thinking there's something to celebrate.

[Bronbron23]

LeBron literally averaged 28 off 68% TS%, he deserves zero blame for what happened in 2014

His cast was absolute garbage that year and the Spurs were red hot offensively

Anyone that pins 2014 on Lebron is a deranged hater

i didnt pun it on lebron. I credited kawhi's defense for the most part.

[Bronbron23]

Why does the MJ crowd boil every player down to scoring? :confusedshrug:

Re Wade, look at what Kuniva noted in the thread that led to the OP (bold added):

Right and this is what alot of bron fans do though. They keep moving the goal post until it fits their agenda. Most bron stans argument on why wade and bosh were trash was for there offensive production. Thats all 90% of the people on here care about tbh. Its why the curry, luka and harden fans make the claims they make. As soon as you destroy there argument though and show its a pile of b.s they go to other shit. Plus/minus or bpm or whatever.

I could give you reasons why bpm isnt a great measurement but it wouldn't matter because bron stans will just find another stat.

[insidious301]

Why does the MJ crowd boil every player down to scoring? :confusedshrug:

Re Wade, look at what Kuniva noted in the thread that led to the OP (bold added):

Good post. You and kuniva know what you're talking about like usual. I have explained to 3ball that using just points is flawed. I see that his followers aren't all that different.


Right and this is what alot of bron fans do though. They keep moving the goal post until it fits their agenda. Most bron stans argument on why wade and bosh were trash was for there offensive production. Thats all 90% of the people on here care about tbh. Its why the curry, luka and harden fans make the claims they make. As soon as you destroy there argument though and show its a pile of b.s they go to other shit. Plus/minus or bpm or whatever.

I could give you reasons why bpm isnt a great measurement but it wouldn't matter because bron stans will just find another stat.

The reasons wont be very good if you're comparing BPM to just points per game. Bpm would be infinitely a better measure, because it is cumulative to your box score. Points are also part of the box score.

[Bronbron23]

Good post. You and kuniva know what you're talking about like usual. I have explained to 3ball that using just points is flawed. I see that his followers aren't all that different.



The reasons wont be very good if you're comparing BPM to just points per game. Bpm would be infinitely a better measure, because it is cumulative to your box score. Points are also part of the box score.

Ok fine bpm is a great determination of a players worth. Mj is better than bron. Case closed

[Bronbron23]

Good post. You and kuniva know what you're talking about like usual. I have explained to 3ball that using just points is flawed. I see that his followers aren't all that different.



The reasons wont be very good if you're comparing BPM to just points per game. Bpm would be infinitely a better measure, because it is cumulative to your box score. Points are also part of the box score.

And stocton is a top 7 player all time and is better than kd, curry and harden. Shit mj beat karl malone and the 7th best player of all time. Thats pretty amazing

[insidious301]

Ok fine bpm is a great determination of a players worth. Mj is better than bron. Case closed

That defeats that purpose of your thread, but alright. I think Jabbar & Jordan are also the greatest to ever do it. BPM isn't end all be all however it is a better measure than just points(much like the analysis in your OP).

[Bronbron23]

That defeats that purpose of your thread, but alright. I think Jabbar & Jordan are greatest to ever do it as well.

Yes i know im being sarcastic. Just showing how bpm is flawed like all box score stats can be.

And i agree that mj and kareem are the best although thats just my opinion. I don't think there is a goat

[insidious301]

Yes i know im being sarcastic. Just showing how bpm is flawed like all box score stats can be.

And i agree that mj and kareem are the best although thats just my opinion. I don't think there is a goat

Using just points is more flawed than a cumulative measure, but good point about box-score stats. They certainly can be flawed.

[Bronbron23]

Using just points is more flawed than a cumulative measure, but good point about box-score stats. They certainly can be flawed.

Fair enough

[Roundball_Rock]

Good post. You and kuniva know what you are talking about as usual. I have explained to 3ball that using just points is flawed.

Thanks. :cheers:


I could give you reasons why bpm isnt a great measurement but it wouldn't matter because bron stans will just find another stat.

According to MJ fans, the only stat in the world that matters is PPG. Come on. All of these advanced stats generally tell the same story.


And stocton is a top 7 player all time and is better than kd, curry and harden

Each formula will generate a few outliers. Stockton is one because of the video game assist numbers the Sloan system generated (ask D Will). BPM says these are the 10 best players this season:

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo • MIL 11.5
2. James Harden • HOU 9.6
3. Kawhi Leonard • LAC 8.9
4. LeBron James • LAL 8.4
5. Luka Dončić • DAL 8.3
6. Anthony Davis • LAL 8.1
7. Nikola Jokić • DEN 7.7
8. Damian Lillard • POR 7.3
9. Jimmy Butler • MIA 5.4
10. Joel Embiid • PHI 5.0

This is a legit list. PPG has Young 4th, Booker 9th, Lavine 11th. :oldlol:

[Doranku]

The Spurs won in 2014 because their offense was operating at an all-time great level during the WCF and finals against the Heat. They were playing some of the greatest team ball I've seen played and the stats confirm it; they posted a 121 ORtg in the finals. Only the KD/Steph Warriors have eclipsed 121 ORTg in a finals series, and that was against an atrocious Cleveland defense. This Heat team was much better defensively and the Spurs still picked them apart.

[tpols]

Now post their averages the year before they teamed up.

[Bronbron23]

The Spurs won in 2014 because their offense was operating at an all-time great level during the WCF and finals against the Heat. They were playing some of the greatest team ball I've seen played and the stats confirm it; they posted a 121 ORtg in the finals. Only the KD/Steph Warriors have eclipsed 121 ORTg in a finals series, and that was against an atrocious Cleveland defense. This Heat team was much better defensively and the Spurs still picked them apart.

So the heats offensive problems had nothing to do with outcome? The heat scored in the 80's twice and only had 2 games over 95 and none over 100.

And its not like the spurs were dropping 120 plus. They had 2 games in the 90's, a low 100's and 2 games at 110. There offense was great dont get me wrong but heats offense was pretty bad.

[NBAGOAT]

So the heats offensive problems had nothing to do with outcome? The heat scored in the 80's twice and only had 2 games over 95 and none over 100.

And its not like the spurs were dropping 120 plus. They had 2 games in the 90's, a low 100's and 2 games at 110. There offense was great dont get me wrong but heats offense was pretty bad.

You gotta look at ortg not points. Heats ortg was like 104 which is bad but not disastrous The pace that series was pretty slow so even scoring 100 is great

[Doranku]

So the heats offensive problems had nothing to do with outcome? The heat scored in the 80's twice and only had 2 games over 95 and none over 100.

And its not like the spurs were dropping 120 plus. They had 2 games in the 90's, a low 100's and 2 games at 110. There offense was great dont get me wrong but heats offense was pretty bad.

Sure, the Heat's offensive dropout compared to 2013 certainly was A factor. But I think the main factor was how much better than Spurs offense was.

2013 Heat ORtg - 108
2014 Heat ORtg - 104

2013 Spurs ORtg - 109
2014 Spurs ORtg - 121

[AirBonner]

MJ in 86 had two players that scored MORE than Bosh and Wade in the 14’ finals

[insidious301]

Fair enough

There you go, bron23. At least you know using one and not the other is inconsistent.

[Bronbron23]

There you go, bron23. At least you know using one and not the other is inconsistent.

Nah both can be inconsistent. I was conceding saying using everything is better than using just points or using just the other. When i say everything i mean everything. Stats, chip, accolades and Eye test

[insidious301]

Nah both can be inconsistent. I was conceding saying using everything is better than using just points or using just the other. When i say everything i mean everything. Stats, chip, accolades and Eye test

To which I credited you for. That was statistically however, minus the accolade mention.

[34-24 Footwork]

We can pick the bones out of Wade and Bosh's scoring between 2013 and 2014 but it's an oversimplification boiling it down to that. These are the field goal/3 point/ORtg splits for the Spurs during the 2014 playoffs:

vs Dallas 50/38% 113
vs Portland 49/40% 113
vs OKC 46/40% 114
vs Miami 53/47% 121

I don't think any prior version of the Heat offensively ( meaning the 2011-13 teams) overcome the 2014 Heat defense allowing the Spurs to go nuclear shooting the ball. Hell, Wade could have been in 2011 form and the Heat aren't winning. I said this in another thread but if you gonna let a team drop those kinds of offensive numbers, you better be the 2017 Warriors.

It comes down to this. There was NOTHING in the Eastern Conference (JV League) that prepared the Heat for that type of offense. Furthermore, their drive n kick offense, while effective out East, was relatively easy to plan for.

The Heat series was arguably the Spurs' easiest series. Like getting a chocolate cake after dinner, honestly.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Once spurs gave the ball to Kawhi in game 3, they had a goat level offense for 3 straight wins.

Also Kawhi guarding LeBron and making him a passive player.

[Phoenix]

It comes down to this. There was NOTHING in the Eastern Conference (JV League) that prepared the Heat for that type of offense. Furthermore, their drive n kick offense, while effective out East, was relatively easy to plan for.

The Heat series was arguably the Spurs' easiest series. Like getting a chocolate cake after dinner, honestly.

It's hard to argue against that position based on the respective results. Hell just as far as going the distance the Mavs in the first round played them the closest.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It comes down to this. There was NOTHING in the Eastern Conference (JV League) that prepared the Heat for that type of offense. Furthermore, their drive n kick offense, while effective out East, was relatively easy to plan for.

The Heat series was arguably the Spurs' easiest series. Like getting a chocolate cake after dinner, honestly.

When they finally gave Kawhi the ball, what a coincidence.

[Roundball_Rock]

It cuts both ways, depending on the year. In 08' the 39 win 8 seed Hawks gave the Celtics a tougher series than the WC champ 57 win Lakers did. Series come down to match ups, small sample size, health at the time of the series, etc.

[Phoenix]

It cuts both ways, depending on the year. In 08' the 39 win 8 seed Hawks gave the Celtics a tougher series than the WC champ 57 win Lakers did. Series come down to match ups, small sample size, health at the time of the series, etc.

That's true. That's the interesting thing with how teams matchup. Actually to that point, both the Hawks and the Cavs took the Celts to 7, while the Pistons/Lakers were outed in 6. Just based on records the latter two teams were the 'best' but that didn't manifest itself on the court in terms of matchups. Though it makes me wonder if the Celts played to their competition that year.

[34-24 Footwork]

It cuts both ways, depending on the year. In 08' the 39 win 8 seed Hawks gave the Celtics a tougher series than the WC champ 57 win Lakers did. Series come down to match ups, small sample size, health at the time of the series, etc.

But the 2014 Finals was the 2nd largest beatdown in finals history (after 2018).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It cuts both ways, depending on the year. In 08' the 39 win 8 seed Hawks gave the Celtics a tougher series than the WC champ 57 win Lakers did. Series come down to match ups, small sample size, health at the time of the series, etc.

True but we saw the same exact matchup the year prior. Spurs offense was 109 in 2013 finals and 121 in 2014 finals. Massive increase due to Kawhi's dominance over the 3 game win stretch.

[34-24 Footwork]

When we discuss the 2014 Finals, we have to remind people that it was THAT BAD.

Not sure why you could quote someone's averages if they led their team to that type of beating.

As many bad matchups we've had in the finals throughout the history of NBA, only one other team has suffered a beating similar to the one in 2014.

So put those stats into context...

[Roundball_Rock]

That's true. That's the interesting thing with how teams matchup. Actually to that point, both the Hawks and the Cavs took the Celts to 7, while the Pistons/Lakers were outed in 6. Just based on records the latter two teams were the 'best' but that didn't manifest itself on the court in terms of matchups. Though it makes me wonder if the Celts played to their competition that year.

They did the same thing the next year, 7 games against the 7th seeded Bulls and 7 games against the Magic (no KG but they were still a top 5 team sans KG). The year after 7 against the Lakers. Then in 2012, 7 games against the 8 seeded Sixers (who got to the ECSF only because Rose went down) and 7 against the Heatles.

They just seemed to find themselves in a lot of 7 game series, whether against inferior, superior or equal comp. :lol


True but we saw the same exact matchup the year prior. Spurs offense was 109 in 2013 finals and 121 in 2014 finals. Massive increase due to Kawhi's dominance over the 3 game win stretch.

Yeah, Kawhi's improvement was a big reason the Spurs improved. Kawhi improved while Wade, Bosh regressed.

The other "rematch" no one talks about is the Pacers. The 49 win Pacers took the 66 win Heat to 7 but the 56 win Pacers lost fairly convincingly to the 54 win Heat in 14'.


Not sure why you could quote someone's averages if they led their team to that type of beating.

54 wins and the Finals with LeBron; 37 wins and 10th in the East without him. That's why it comes up.

[3ball]

Wade had a one-off bad series in the 14' Finals because the Spurs were the only team that succeeded in exploiting Lebron, and Wade was the casualty (turned into a spot-up shooter by the Spurs)

Otherwise, Wade averaged 20/5/5 (prime Pippen stats) from the 13' Finals through the 14' ECF - he just had one bad series in the Finals and then was back to prime Pippen stats in 15' and 16'.

[3ball]

The reality is that the 14' Heat needed Lebron to be better than "very good" to win.. they needed him to average 40 - that's 12 more than he got

12 points more would've been enough because a 12 point increase turned around a series with LONGER odds.. Lebron was down 3-1 to the Warriors while averaging 24 ppg, but then went 3-0 after increasing his ppg to 36.

[FromDowntown]

Rookie NBA fan :lol

How about posting the Finals stats for them

You know, the series they lost :lol

Try Again SmolBrain23

[FromDowntown]

The reality is that the 14' Heat needed Lebron to be better than "very good" to win.. they needed him to average 40 - that's 12 more than he got

12 points more would've been enough because a 12 point increase turned around a series with LONGER odds.. Lebron was down 3-1 to the Warriors while averaging 24 ppg, but then went 3-0 after increasing his ppg to 36.

Points come from Shots. So take 7 shots away from another player. Dumb.

[Roundball_Rock]

Points come from Shots. So take 7 shots away from another player. Dumb.

He and his minions lack a basic understanding of the game. As if LeBron's extra shots would come for free--not merely shift shots from other players.

:lol at hyping 14' Wade. He was 28th in BPM and 51st in VORP. He was worse in the playoffs as his BPM went from 2.9 to 0.9 in the playoffs.

[3ball]

Points come from Shots. So take 7 shots away from another player. Dumb.

Games don't have a pre-set number of possessions to be played - the players and the action determines how many possessions there are.

MJ got 41 and Pippen got 21 in the 1993 Finals - why can't lebron/wade or lebron/bosh do that?

If lebron was in 40 ppg beast mode (not passive mouse mode) - this difference in his play has a ripple effect.. his volume will spearhead a team advantage on the offensive glass (not included in pace numbers).. and the pressure he applies will dictate a greater pace as the team operates at full capacity

[3ball]

Games don't have a pre-set number of possessions to be played - the players and the action determines how many possessions there are.

MJ got 41 and Pippen got 21 in the 1993 Finals - why can't lebron/wade or lebron/bosh do that?




No one

[knicksman]

4th year celtics are still contenders until ainge traded perk while 4th year heat is done. And heat still needed the refs against 5th year celtics. Thats all you really need to know about lebron ball. And also proof that skillset >>>> stats. Celtics have better chemistry coz of their superior skillset despite having lesser players.

[Lebron23]

4th year celtics are still contenders until ainge traded perk while 4th year heat is done. And heat still needed the refs against 5th year celtics. Thats all you really need to know about lebron ball. And also proof that skillset >>>> stats. Celtics have better chemistry coz of their superior skillset despite having lesser players.
Your favorite player the late Kobe Bryant was literally shooting bricks in the 2004 and 2008 nba finals.

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron shot 20% with me on him that series.