19 & 20 Kawhi vs 06 & 09 Wade

[insidious301]

Like Kawhi in 2019, Wade led his team to a championship and put up killer numbers. 2009 Wade did not contend outside of a first round playoff appearance. That year however, he individually dominated and put up similar numbers to 80s Jordan. I have also seen the Kawhi and Jordan comparisons, but think he moves like Wizards Jordan. Slow and methodical and obviously more effective. 19 & 20 Kawhi vs 06 & 09 Wade: Which player had the better two-year combination?

[Phoenix]

HBK_Kliq_2 enters the chat

[insidious301]

HBK_Kliq_2 enters the chat

If HBK posts here, maybe he can explain why 2014 Kawhi was better than Manu. He'll be climbing uphill knowing that Manu had better numbers across the log. What is your take on the topic by the way? I have seen you advocate for Wade in the past. So I know you have a high opinion on him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi's 2019 playoff run is better then Wade's 2006 playoff run.

Scoring: Kawhi scored 732 points on 62% TS, more points on better efficiency and was the main focus of teams defenses and constantly getting double teamed. Wade had Shaq who was still getting double teamed and demanding more attention then any teammate that Kawhi had.

Clutch: Going into the finals, Kawhi scored more points under 5 minutes (clutch time) then any player since 2000 besides 1 LeBron year.

Defense responsibility: Guarding Giannis games 3-6. I didn't see Wade ever taking on Dirk for that long.

Competition of teams: Wade had a really easy finals playing a glorified 1 man team. All Heat had to do was put up a 100 offensive rating to win that series. Kawhi had to face the duo of Curry/Dray with Klay playing majority of the series. Wade played Pistons in the ECF but post Larry brown pistons always sucked in playoffs. 2nd round Kawhi had to face 3 allstars, a 21PPG scorer and 18PPG scorer on 76ers, while Wade faced the mediocre nets.

[insidious301]

Kawhi's 2019 playoff run is better then Wade's 2006 playoff run.

Scoring: Kawhi scored 732 points on 62% TS, more points on better efficiency and was the main focus of teams defenses and constantly getting double teamed. Wade had Shaq who was still getting double teamed and demanding more attention then any teammate that Kawhi had.

Clutch: Going into the finals, Kawhi scored more points under 5 minutes (clutch time) then any player since 2000 besides 1 LeBron year.

Defense responsibility: Guarding Giannis games 3-6. I didn't see Wade ever taking on Dirk for that long.

Competition of teams: Wade had a really easy finals playing a glorified 1 man team. All Heat had to do was put up a 100 offensive rating to win that series. Kawhi had to face the duo of Curry/Dray with Klay playing majority of the series. Wade played Pistons in the ECF but post Larry brown pistons always sucked in playoffs. 2nd round Kawhi had to face 3 allstars, a 21PPG scorer and 18PPG scorer on 76ers, while Wade faced the mediocre nets.

Not a bad argument for Kawhi actually. Do you also have 2019 Kawhi > 2009 Wade? Kawhi clearly had better help, but both players peaked statistically.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If HBK posts here, maybe he can explain why 2014 Kawhi was better than Manu. He'll be climbing uphill knowing that Manu had better numbers across the log. What is your take on the topic by the way? I have seen you advocate for Wade in the past. So I know you have a high opinion on him.

Your entire argument is rate stats. You can make an argument that Battier was better then LeBron in 2013 playoffs as well, much better lineup data.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not a bad argument for Kawhi actually. Do you also have 2019 Kawhi > 2009 Wade? Kawhi clearly had better help, but both players peaked statistically.

2020 Kawhi still may be his peak. This is the best I've seen Kawhi play because his play making and combined offense/defense game. I would say Kawhi is better then Wade basically every year.

Kawhi 2013 or 2014 > Wade 2004
Kawhi 2015 > Wade 2005
Kawhi 2016 > Wade 2007 or 08
Kawhi 2017 > Wade 09
Kawhi 2019 > Wade 06
Kawhi 2020 > Wade 2010 or 2011

[SouBeachTalents]

2020 Kawhi still may be his peak. This is the best I've seen Kawhi play because his play making and combined offense/defense game. I would say Kawhi is better then Wade basically every year.

Kawhi 2013 or 2014 > Wade 2004
Kawhi 2015 > Wade 2005
Kawhi 2016 > Wade 2007 or 08
Kawhi 2017 > Wade 09
Kawhi 2019 > Wade 06
Kawhi 2020 > Wade 2010 or 2011
Really surprised you went with Kawhi tbh

[insidious301]

Your entire argument is rate stats. You can make an argument that Battier was better then LeBron in 2013 playoffs as well, much better lineup data.

Not true. I also used most playoff metrics not rate-based. Manu checks out superior.


2020 Kawhi still may be his peak. This is the best I've seen Kawhi play because his play making and combined offense/defense game. I would say Kawhi is better then Wade basically every year.

Kawhi 2013 or 2014 > Wade 2004
Kawhi 2015 > Wade 2005
Kawhi 2016 > Wade 2007 or 08
Kawhi 2017 > Wade 09
Kawhi 2019 > Wade 06
Kawhi 2020 > Wade 2010 or 2011

Many of those years 2006 & 2009 Wade was better than. You're also comparing Rookie Wade to 2014 Kawhi. What are you doing?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not true. I also used most playoff metrics not rate-based. Manu checks out superior.



Many of those years 2006 & 2009 Wade was better than. You're also comparing Rookie Wade to 2014 Kawhi. What are you doing?

2004 Wade and 2014 Kawhi are the same ages

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not true. I also used most playoff metrics not rate-based. Manu checks out superior.



Many of those years 2006 & 2009 Wade was better than. You're also comparing Rookie Wade to 2014 Kawhi. What are you doing?

About Manu, with these same rate stats, you point an argument that he was better then Duncan basically every year they were together? So Duncan was Manu's sidekick according to your argument.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Really surprised you went with Kawhi tbh

The only thing Wade is better then Kawhi at is dressing his son in drag hahahah

[insidious301]

2004 Wade and 2014 Kawhi are the same ages

A rookie is a rookie. Be serious. By the numbers, Wade had many years more impressive than Kawhi's. BTW what makes 2009 Wade inferior to 17 Kawhi? Outside of the better teammates Kawhi had.


About Manu, with these same rate stats, you point an argument that he was better then Duncan basically every year they were together? So Duncan was Manu's sidekick according to your argument.

I used playoff stats too. Playoff Manu had a higher bpm/per & equal ppg with more usage. So not only is your point about Duncan irrelevant, but Playoff Manu was better than Kawhi.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

A rookie is a rookie. Be serious. By the numbers, Wade had many years more impressive than Kawhi's. BTW what makes 2009 Wade inferior to 17 Kawhi? Outside of the better teammates Kawhi had.



I used playoff stats too. Playoff Manu had a higher bpm/per & equal ppg with more usage. So not only is your point about Duncan irrelevant, but Playoff Manu was better than Kawhi.

Your argument is Manu was the best player on multiple title teams because of silly rate stats. Nobody will ever agree with you on that. Its either Kawhi or Duncan in 2014 because the defense/minutes gap.

2009 Wade got knocked out by the hawks hahahah that's pathetic! They were swept in the next round by a 1 man LeBron team. Hawks #1 option in the series vs heat averaged 17PPG on 49% TS, there was no reason for Wade to lose that series. Kawhi in 2017 beat two different teams (grizzles and rockets) that were on the level of 2009 Hawks or better.

Kawhi vs grizzles 1st round 2017: 31PPG 72% TS

Wade vs Hawks 1st round 2009: 29PPG 57% TS

And then Kawhi was best player vs Harden's rockets, who were a better team then 2009 Hawks.

[insidious301]

Your argument is Manu was the best player on multiple title teams because of silly rate stats. Nobody will ever agree with you on that. Its either Kawhi or Duncan in 2014 because the defense/minutes gap.

The post you just quoted are not rate stats. Those are playoff numbers they actually averaged. Per game, Playoff Manu averaged equal points and more assists on more usage. His all-around game however was better, averaging a higher bpm & per.


2009 Wade got knocked out by the hawks hahahah that's pathetic! They were swept in the next round by a 1 man LeBron team. Hawks #1 option in the series vs heat averaged 17PPG on 49% TS, there was no reason for Wade to lose that series. Kawhi in 2017 beat two different teams (grizzles and rockets) that were on the level of 2009 Hawks or better.

I can agree with that. Thought Miami should have won that series too! But at the same time, Wade played with garbage teammates whereas Kawhi did not. Wade's numbers across the log were sensational. Higher bpm/vorp/per and averaged more points than Kawhi. One series in the playoffs isn't a very good argument for 2017 Kawhi. Not seeing it, HBK.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The post you just quoted are not rate stats. Those are playoff numbers they actually averaged. Per game, Playoff Manu averaged equal points and more assists on more usage. His all-around game however was better, averaging a higher bpm & per.



I can agree with that. Thought Miami should have won that series too! But at the same time, Wade played with garbage teammates whereas Kawhi did not. Wade's numbers across the log were sensational. Higher bpm/vorp/per and averaged more points than Kawhi. One series in the playoffs isn't a very good argument for 2017 Kawhi. Not seeing it, HBK.

For kawhi vs Manu 2014. BPM is a disqualified stat because Manu's lack of minutes. 150 minute gap is too big to overlook. Kawhi beats Manu in VORP, win shares, offensive win shares, defensive win shares and WS/48, significantly better finals performance against defending champions, bigger defensive responsibility guarding LeBron. Overall Kawhi wins.

Lets look at Kawhi 2017 vs Wade 2009 now.

Kawhi destroys Wade in TS by 10%, beats him in PER by 6, kawhi doubles Wade's BPM, kawhi beats Wade by 11% in WS/48. This is all while Kawhi is playing against more teams and logging 144 more minutes! There's no excuse for Wade to allow Kawhi to run laps around him in advanced stats when Kawhi is playing more minutes and better teams.

I don't know what stats you're looking at.

[FromDowntown]

Kawhi's 2019 playoff run is better then Wade's 2006 playoff run.

Scoring: Kawhi scored 732 points on 62% TS, more points on better efficiency and was the main focus of teams defenses and constantly getting double teamed. Wade had Shaq who was still getting double teamed and demanding more attention then any teammate that Kawhi had.

Clutch: Going into the finals, Kawhi scored more points under 5 minutes (clutch time) then any player since 2000 besides 1 LeBron year.

Defense responsibility: Guarding Giannis games 3-6. I didn't see Wade ever taking on Dirk for that long.

Competition of teams: Wade had a really easy finals playing a glorified 1 man team. All Heat had to do was put up a 100 offensive rating to win that series. Kawhi had to face the duo of Curry/Dray with Klay playing majority of the series. Wade played Pistons in the ECF but post Larry brown pistons always sucked in playoffs. 2nd round Kawhi had to face 3 allstars, a 21PPG scorer and 18PPG scorer on 76ers, while Wade faced the mediocre nets.

2018 Raptors had the 75th best SRS of ALL TIME, won 59 games and were a legit threat. Then they traded Demar for Kawhi, Marc Gasol, and Danny Green.

Foh rookie fan :lol

[insidious301]

For kawhi vs Manu 2014. BPM is a disqualified stat because Manu's lack of minutes. 150 minute gap is too big to overlook. Kawhi beats Manu in VORP, win shares, offensive win shares, defensive win shares and WS/48, significantly better finals performance against defending champions, bigger defensive responsibility guarding LeBron. Overall Kawhi wins.

Lets look at Kawhi 2017 vs Wade 2009 now.

Kawhi destroys Wade in TS by 10%, beats him in PER by 6, kawhi doubles Wade's BPM, kawhi beats Wade by 11% in WS/48. This is all while Kawhi is playing against more teams and logging 144 more minutes! There's no excuse for Wade to allow Kawhi to run laps around him in advanced stats when Kawhi is playing more minutes and better teams.

I don't know what stats you're looking at.

Manu's minutes were fine so the stat stays. 32 vs 26 minutes isn't some big disparity, so I'm not sure what you are rambling on about. Playoff Manu equaled Kawhi's points despite playing 6 minutes less, but averaged more assists a game. Manu's all-around game is where he makes this comparison a bad joke. Superior bpm & per across the log. BTW the numbers with Wade-Kawhi are from the regular-season. Wade averaged more points per game, assists, steals and blocks. To go along with that, Wade also averaged a better BPM/PER/VORP. This is an 82 game sample in case you were wondering.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2018 Raptors had the 75th best SRS of ALL TIME, won 59 games and were a legit threat. Then they traded Demar for Kawhi, Marc Gasol, and Danny Green.

Foh rookie fan :lol

And how many games did 2018 raptors win in playoffs past the 1st round? ZERO hahhaha

on top of that, kawhi had to beat 3 super teams in 76ers, bucks, warriors. GOAT path by far.


Manu's minutes were fine so the stat stays. 32 vs 26 minutes isn't some big disparity, so I'm not sure what you are rambling on about. Playoff Manu equaled Kawhi's points despite playing 6 minutes less, but averaged more assists a game. Manu's all-around game is where he makes this comparison a bad joke. Superior bpm & per across the log. BTW the numbers with Wade-Kawhi are from the regular-season. Wade averaged more points per game, assists, steals and blocks. To go along with that, Wade also averaged a better BPM/PER/VORP. This is an 82 game sample in case you were wondering.

Minutes are very import in playoffs and Kawhi wins by a significant amount when comparing him to Manu. Kawhi also beats Manu in win shares 48% which is one of the best stats, defense responsibility is a massive gap, scoring is close but edge to Kawhi for efficiency and finals performance. Overall Kawhi beats Manu for better shooting, scoring, defense impact.

Wade/Kawhi i was talking about playoff runs. Who cares about Wade's regular season success? He only had like 4 superstar reg seasons anyway, kawhi has already passed that (2015, 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020). In 2015 he was still a top 10 MVP guy and a top 5 RPM guy.

Playoffs Kawhi kills Wade because Wade never had a carry job like Kawhi 2019 playoffs. Dirk and mavs choked the 2006 finals, they couldn't even hit a 100 offensive rating that series hahaha.

Kawhi is the better shooter, scorer, defender, rebounder over Wade and just impacts the game more overall.

[SATAN]

You're an idiot.

[thesage]

If you are talking about strictly regular season, then wade's 09 season > kawhi's 20 season. Otherwise it's going to go to Kawhi for both years.

[3ball]

Now compare to Pippen's peak (including playoffs)

:yaohappy:

[insidious301]

And how many games did 2018 raptors win in playoffs past the 1st round? ZERO hahhaha

on top of that, kawhi had to beat 3 super teams in 76ers, bucks, warriors. GOAT path by far.



Minutes are very import in playoffs and Kawhi wins by a significant amount when comparing him to Manu. Kawhi also beats Manu in win shares 48% which is one of the best stats, defense responsibility is a massive gap, scoring is close but edge to Kawhi for efficiency and finals performance. Overall Kawhi beats Manu for better shooting, scoring, defense impact.

Sorry, but 32 vs 26 minutes isn't some big difference you feign here. It is even less relevant when you factor that Manu played in 4th quarters and crunchtime. When all of that is considered, Manu still averaged the same points, more assists, a better per-bpm. Player efficiency means Manu was more proficient with his numbers. And BPM means his production had more impact. Playoff Manu beats Kawhi handily.


Wade/Kawhi i was talking about playoff runs. Who cares about Wade's regular season success? He only had like 4 superstar reg seasons anyway, kawhi has already passed that (2015, 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020). In 2015 he was still a top 10 MVP guy and a top 5 RPM guy.

Most people care. You don't get to the playoffs without a regular-season. Your statement is irrational.


Playoffs Kawhi kills Wade because Wade never had a carry job like Kawhi 2019 playoffs. Dirk and mavs choked the 2006 finals, they couldn't even hit a 100 offensive rating that series hahaha.

Kawhi is the better shooter, scorer, defender, rebounder over Wade and just impacts the game more overall.

Wade only played in one series because his team was horrible. How about the 82 game sample I posted? If you include that with the postseason play, other than better teammates, what argument does Kawhi have?


Now compare to Pippen's peak (including playoffs)

:yaohappy:

Pippen would fare out great. I'd take 09 Wade and 17 Kawhi over Pippen however.

[3ball]

Sorry, but 32 vs 26 minutes isn't some big difference you feign here. It is even less relevant when you factor that Manu played in 4th quarters and crunchtime. When all of that is considered, Manu still averaged the same points, more assists, a better per-bpm. Player efficiency means Manu was more proficient with his numbers. And BPM means his production had more impact. Playoff Manu beats Kawhi handily.



Most people care. You don't get to the playoffs without a regular-season. Your statement is irrational.



Wade only played in one series because his team was horrible. How about the 82 game sample I posted? If you include that with the postseason play, other than better teammates, what argument does Kawhi have?



Pippen would fare out great. I'd take 09 Wade and 17 Kawhi over Pippen however.

Peak Wade and Kawhi are all-time level 1st options... Maybe top 5 or 10 all-time.. goat-level stuff

Peak Pippen is nowhere NEAR this

Stop playin.. :kobe:

[insidious301]

Peak Wade and Kawhi are all-time level 1st options... Maybe top 5 or 10 all-time.. goat-level stuff

Peak Pippen is nowhere NEAR this

Stop playin.. :kobe:

If you think Pippen is nowhere near them, you need to brush up on your history. His advanced numbers are not that far off. Take Kawhi for example. 94 Pippen basically had equal Value Over Replacement and 7 to Kawhi's 8 box plus minus. Then there is Pippen's slight better defense. That is during an era where the defensive player had more impact.

[3ball]

If you think Pippen is nowhere near them, you need to brush up on your history. His advanced numbers are not that far off. Take Kawhi for example. Pippen basically has equal Value Over Replacement. 7 to Kawhi's 8 box plus minus. Then there is Pippen's slight better defense. That is during an era where the defensive player had more impact

Pippen's peak scoring is 22 ppg on bad efficiency, and playoff choke, aka nowhere NEAR the capability of leading a team to a championship like Wade and Kawhi did in goat fashion - Pippen is nowhere near this and it's a shame we're debating something that's common knowledge

Pippen can't take over games with scoring.. period.. he gets points in the flow or transition more like a souped-up andre roberson - he's a bad shooter, iso player and very vulnerable in tight halfcourt sets, aka playoffs

Btw, pippen's peak of 22 on bad efficiency is worse than 13-14' Wade (21 on good efficiency in regular season and also 13' Finals thru 14' ECF)... So you should know why I complain about prime Pippen - he was 13-14' Wade!!!

[insidious301]

Pippen's peak scoring is 22 ppg on bad efficiency, and playoff choke, aka nowhere NEAR the capability of leading a team to a championship like Wade and Kawhi did in goat fashion - Pippen is nowhere near this and it's a shame we're debating something that's common knowledge

Pippen can't take over games with scoring.. period.. he gets points in the flow or transition more like a souped-up andre roberson - he's a bad shooter, iso player and very vulnerable in tight halfcourt sets, aka playoffs

Pippen averaged 22 points on 49% fg. I don't know what math you're doing, but that isn't bad efficiency. More importantly though you're making the mistake the 2k ppg crowd does. Ignore everything else important going into a game. When we don't cherrypick, Pippen's play is without a doubt on Kawhi's level. Similar advanced stats which measure impact. And better defense. Nothing in your post is congruent with reality.

[3ball]

Pippen averaged 22 points on 49% fg. I don't know what math you're doing, but that isn't bad efficiency. More importantly though you're making the mistake the 2k ppg crowd does. Ignore everything else important going into a game. When we don't cherrypick, Pippen's play is without a doubt on Kawhi's level. Similar advanced stats which measure impact. And better defense. Nothing in your post is congruent with reality.

Pippen can't dominate or lead a team to a title because he can't score.. period.. so he's nowhere near peak Kawhi or Wade

And his efficiency is poor in the playoffs - see 88-90', 93', or 95-03'

pippen's peak of 22 on bad efficiency is worse than 13-14' Wade (21 on good efficiency in regular season and also 13' Finals thru 14' ECF)... So you should know why I complain about prime Pippen - he was 13-14' Wade!!!

[insidious301]

Pippen can't dominate or lead a team to a title because he can't score.. period.. so he's nowhere near peak Kawhi or Wade

pippen's peak of 22 on bad efficiency is worse than 13-14' Wade (21 on good efficiency in regular season and also 13' Finals thru 14' ECF)... So you should know why I complain about prime Pippen - he was 13-14' Wade!!!

You already posted that so I'll repeat it again. How is 22 points on 49% fg bad efficiency? Do you need to take a math course? They're online and some are actually free. Beyond the percentages however we know that 94 Pippen's impact corresponds with Kawhi. Along with the superior defense, Pippen's overall box confirms.

[3ball]

You already posted that so I'll repeat it again. How is 22 points on 49% fg bad efficiency? Do you need to take a math course? They're online and some are actually free. Beyond the percentages however we know that 94 Pippen's impact corresponds with Kawhi. Along with the superior defense, Pippen's overall box confirms.

22 on 43% in 94' playoffs

52% TS... 104 ORtg... and horrific in 2nd round loss choke job...

aka nowhere near a goat peak like Wade/Kawhi.. not in the vicinity of the vicinity.. again, common knowledge

[insidious301]

22 on 43% in 94' playoffs... 52% TS... 104 ORtg... horrific in 2nd round loss choke job... aka nowhere near a goat peak like Wade/Kawhi

How was Pippen nowhere near a "GOAT peak" when his advanced stats were parallel to Kawhi's? He also played better defense too. I don't know man, you might need to reavulate your case here.

[3ball]

How was Pippen nowhere near a "GOAT peak" when his advanced stats were parallel to Kawhi's? He also played better defense too. I don't know man, you might need to reavulate your case here.

Anyone that saw the 19' and 94' Playoffs is like :facepalm: to what you just said

A goat carry-job vs a total choking and inadequacy exposure.. not comparable AT ALL

and Pippen's advanced stats in playoffs are HORRIBLE - 94' Pippen was 4th on his own team in ws/48, while kukoc beat him in bpm

[insidious301]

Anyone that saw the 94' and 19' Playoffs is like :facepalm: to what you just said

I have Kawhi better, but you're ignoring an 82 game regular-season in favor of 10 games. In 7 of those, Pippen played one of the best defenses ever. Not smart. So until I see a better argument, Pippen was definitely on the same tier. And far from nowhere near.

[3ball]

.
Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm



I have Kawhi better, but you're ignoring an 82 game regular-season in favor of 10 games. In 7 of those, Pippen played one of the best defenses ever. Not smart. So until I see a better argument, Pippen was definitely on the same tier. And far from nowhere near.

94' Pippen was 4th on his own team in playoff ws/48, while kukoc beat him in bpm

And you want to compare him to Kawhi or Wade's goat run?

It's preposterous

And you think it's just 1 series?.. wade's playoff stats from 11-14' beat pippen's.. and Kyrie's from 16' and 17' destroy pippen's

Btw, Wade was #2 in regular season PER/BPM/VORP/WS in 2010 (the year before lebron teamed up - so Wade was the #2 player, aka the best help possible, yet lebron was perennial loser/underdog with him.. they lost or were underdog for 3 of 4 years, including goat choke and record loss)

[Roundball_Rock]

2ball is obsessed with Pippen hate. What does Pippen have to do with the OP? :lol

[insidious301]

94' Pippen was 4th on his own team in playoff ws/48, while kukoc beat him in bpm

And you want to compare him to Kawhi or Wade's goat run?

It's preposterous

And you think it's just 1 series?.. wade's playoff stats from 11-14' beat pippen's.. and Kyrie's from 16' and 17' destroy pippen's

We're debating Wade's 2009 peak versus Pippen's in 1994. You and HBK foolishly ignore an 82 game sample for 10 that are cherrypicked. Taking a deeper look however, Pippen had congruent box play to Kawhi along with similar value over replacement. To go along with better individual defense, Pippen also faced the playoff Knicks who were one of the best defenses ever. Reviewing their DRTG you should know it'll skew the numbers. If you broaden the sample though the numbers indicate equal play. So, 94 Pippen was not better than Kawhi or Wade those years, but on equal footing. Your nowhere near claim is null and void.

[Roundball_Rock]

94' Pippen, 09' Wade, 19' Kawhi all ranked 3rd in BPM that season.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

We're debating Wade's 2009 peak versus Pippen's in 1994. You and HBK foolishly ignore an 82 game sample for 10 that are cherrypicked. Taking a deeper look however, Pippen had congruent box play to Kawhi along with similar value over replacement. To go along with better individual defense, Pippen also faced the playoff Knicks who were one of the best defenses ever. Reviewing their DRTG you should know it'll skew the numbers. If you broaden the sample though the numbers indicate equal play. So, 94 Pippen was not better than Kawhi or Wade those years, but on equal footing. Your nowhere near claim is null and void.

Since you're far too intimidated to discuss Kawhi's playoffs. We can talk about regular season. Kawhi as the best player has led five different teams to a top 3 SRS in regular season

2015 spurs, 2016 spurs, 2017 spurs, 2019 raptors, 2020 clippers.

How many top 3 SRS teams did Wade and Pippen lead as the best player?

[insidious301]

He is comparing Kukoc's minutes to Pippen
94' Pippen, 09' Wade, 19' Kawhi all ranked 3rd in BPM that season.

A huge disparity in playtime for 3ball to make this claim. 38 vs 19 is superstar vs role player minutes. BTW Pippen's bpm & vorp in the 1994 playoffs are equal to Playoff Wade in 2009. According to 3ball however one is "GOAT tier" and the other nowhere near. Haha. He needs a stronger argument to be taken serious.


Since you're far too intimidated to discuss Kawhi's playoffs. We can talk about regular season. Kawhi as the best player has led five different teams to a top 3 SRS in regular season

2015 spurs, 2016 spurs, 2017 spurs, 2019 raptors, 2020 clippers.

How many top 3 SRS teams did Wade and Pippen lead as the best player?

You ignored an 82 game sample in favor of 10. 7 of which came against the best defense of the 90s. Like 3ball, come up with a better argument to be taken serious.

[Roundball_Rock]

A huge disparity in playtime for 3ball to make this claim. 38 vs 19 is superstar vs role player minutes. BTW Pippen's bpm & vorp in the 1994 playoffs are equal to Playoff Wade in 2009. According to 3ball however one is "GOAT tier" and the other nowhere near. Haha. He needs a stronger argument to be taken serious.

This is what they do time and again. Good point, intelligent people won't compare a 19 MPG player's "per minute" stats to that of a superstar's.

We saw Kukoc playing Pippen's role and playing big minutes. Here is what happened:

Pippen 97': 20/7/6 55% TS 16.6 GS
Kukoc 98': 14/4/5 52% TS 11.0 GS (as #2 option)

How dumb do you have to be to compare a 19 MPG player to a MVP candidate? There is a reason Kukoc was playing 19 MPG as a rookie.


How many top 3 SRS teams did Wade and Pippen lead as the best player?

Kawhi is the best of the bunch. I'm just saying they are similar. There isn't a light years difference between say, 15th all-time, and 25th. 2ball, who thinks Pippen=Draymond, is acting like we are comparing Draymond to Kawhi or Wade here.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

A huge disparity in playtime for 3ball to make this claim. 38 vs 19 is superstar vs role player minutes. BTW Pippen's bpm & vorp in the 1994 playoffs are equal to Playoff Wade in 2009. According to 3ball however one is "GOAT tier" and the other nowhere near. Haha. He needs a stronger argument to be taken serious.



You ignored an 82 game sample in favor of 10. 7 of which came against the best defense of the 90s. Like 3ball, come up with a better argument to be taken serious.

Playoffs is when the big boys play. What have you been living under a rock? LeBron has never even led a #1 offense in reg season and Nash is the GOAT. Cut the regular season bullshit out and maybe I could take you seriously..

[insidious301]

Playoffs is when the big boys play. What have you been living under a rock? LeBron has never even led a #1 offense in reg season and Nash is the GOAT. Cut the regular season bullshit out and maybe I could take you seriously..

Look at the Knicks drtg compared to the teams Kawhi faced. New York ranked #1 with a 98 defensive rating. Kawhi faced the Rockets and Grizzlies who were 107 & 109. The only big boy defense here were the Knicks. Ignoring 82 games in favor of 10 where one guy glays the best defense. No, not smart. Watch more basketball and play less 2k.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Look at the Knicks drtg compared to the teams Kawhi faced. New York ranked #1 with a 98 defensive rating. Kawhi faced the Rockets and Grizzlies who were 107 & 109. The only big boy defense here were the Knicks. Ignoring 82 games in favor of 10 where one guy glays the best defense. No, not smart. Watch more basketball and play less 2k.

Kawhi was facing Marc Gasol who just recently anchored the #2 defense this season. You lose again.

Also Kawhi had to out play Harden a much better offensive player then Ewing.

[3ball]

If we put peak wade's stats against peak Pippen, Wade blows him away.. there won't be any need to cherry-pick - the vast majority of Wade's stats will beat pippen's

This is a ridiculous argument to have - Pippen never played anywhere near 06' Wade, or any peak version - this is common knowledge.. Pippen isn't on the Wade/Kobe/lebron/harden, aka elite 1st option level

Btw, Wade was #2 in regular season PER/BPM/VORP/WS in 2010 (the year before lebron teamed up - so Wade was the #2 player, aka the best help possible, yet lebron was perennial loser/underdog with him.. they lost or were underdog for 3 of 4 years, including goat choke and record loss)

[insidious301]

Kawhi was facing Marc Gasol who just recently anchored the #2 defense this season. You lose again.

Also Kawhi had to out play Harden a much better offensive player then Ewing.

I know math isn't your strong suit, but NY averaged a 98 in defensive rating. That's with Peak Ewing. Memphis with Gasol though were at 107. The difference between an ALL TIME defense vs a good one. Stick to playstation and let the big boys talk hoops.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I know math isn't your strong suit, but NY averaged a 98 in defensive rating. That's with Peak Ewing. Memphis with Gasol though were at 107. The difference between an ALL TIME defense vs a good one. Stick to playstation and let the big boys talk hoops.

Offenses were not as advanced in that time, so you can't compare raw team ratings.

Embiid was playing like Ewing in 2019 2nd round. So if you cut off Kawhi at the end of the 76ers series and compare it to Pippen at the end of 1994 Knicks series.

[3ball]

Offenses were not as advanced in that time,


.

You mean offenses didn't use the 3-point line as a gimmick and turn the game into a 3-point contest of open threes and layups??.. where players are inferior shot makers than previous eras because of spacing?.. where today's players can't convert and are AFRAID of tough shots, aka contested mid-range or post??

Is that what you mean by "more advanced"??

Sounds like a dumbed-down, Mickey Mouse, beginner format to me... Where players are inferior 2-point shot-maker (inferior pure basketball players.. they need spacing and 3-point drill format, aka beginner fornat)

[insidious301]

Offenses were not as advanced in that time, so you can't compare raw team ratings.

Embiid was playing like Ewing in 2019 2nd round. So if you cut off Kawhi at the end of the 76ers series and compare it to Pippen at the end of 1994 Knicks series.

Offenses were fine, you just don't understand basketball. The 80s and 90s had multiple teams on the level of today's offenses. And the offensive ratings are proof of that. The big elephant in the room here is on the defensive end. My point is you cannot seriously adopt a 7 game sample, and against the best defense. Look at Pippen's first round numbers. He put up 25/10/4/3 and shot 49% from the field. That was against Cleveland who had a 105 defensive rating. Better than the 2017 Grizzlies and 2017 Rockets. More evidence Peak Pippen was on the level of Kawhi.

[houston]

wade 06 and 09 was better

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You mean offenses didn't use the 3-point line as a gimmick and turn the game into a 3-point contest of open threes and layups??.. where players are inferior shot makers than previous eras because of spacing?.. where today's players can't convert and are AFRAID of tough shots, aka contested mid-range or post??

Is that what you mean by "more advanced"??

Sounds like a dumbed-down, Mickey Mouse, beginner format to me... Where players are inferior 2-point shot-maker (inferior pure basketball players.. they need spacing and 3-point drill format, aka beginner fornat)

Players are taking and making more 3 point shots, which makes offense ratings naturally increase. A slow center who can't shoot are also worthless today and those guys just bring down the offense as well.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Offenses were fine, you just don't understand basketball. The 80s and 90s had multiple teams on the level of today's offenses. And the offensive ratings are proof of that. The big elephant in the room here is on the defensive end. My point is you cannot seriously adopt a 7 game sample, and against the best defense. Look at Pippen's first round numbers. He put up 25/10/4/3 and shot 49% from the field. That was against Cleveland who had a 105 defensive rating. Better than the 2017 Grizzlies and 2017 Rockets. More evidence Peak Pippen was on the level of Kawhi.

Well show me a series when Pippen actually won carrying his team vs a dominant defense like Kawhi did vs Embiid/Butler/Simmons trio? You are showing me series that Pippen lost and think it seals his argument against Kawhi, kind of silly actually.

[insidious301]

Well show me a series when Pippen actually won carrying his team vs a dominant defense like Kawhi did vs Embiid/Butler/Simmons trio? You are showing me series that Pippen lost and think it seals his argument against Kawhi, kind of silly actually.

Are you high? Pippen and his Bulls beat Cleveland in 1994. Quit debating if you don't know your history.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Are you high? Pippen and his Bulls beat Cleveland in 1994. Quit debating if you don't know your history.

An actual competitive series, not a damn sweep. Kawhi made 2 game winners over Embiid. We want to see Pippen with that pressure? Or is Kukoc going to step in again? Only a damn window licker would say Pippen is better then Kawhi, cut the crap.

[insidious301]

An actual competitive series, not a damn sweep. Kawhi made 2 game winners over Embiid. We want to see Pippen with that pressure? Or is Kukoc going to step in again? Only a damn window licker would say Pippen is better then Kawhi, cut the crap.

Except you claimed Pippen lost that series. Like 3ball you've shown that you can't keep a straight criteria. Again, I'm not saying Pippen is better than Kawhi. What I have been telling you is Peak Pippen was on the level of 2017 Kawhi. The year that was mentioned to sidetrack my OP.

Instead of posting like some naive fanboy, take the time to read posts.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Except you claimed Pippen lost that series. Like 3ball you've shown that you can't keep a straight criteria. Again, I'm not saying Pippen is better than Kawhi. What I have been telling you is Peak Pippen was on the level of 2017 Kawhi. The year that was mentioned to sidetrack my OP.

Instead of posting like some naive fanboy, take the time to read posts.

There's no proof that 1994 Pippen was on Kawhi's level. Pippen was still in a sweep that year, so his advanced stats should of been higher. Now compare his advanced stats to Kawhi? Not even close

2017 Kawhi should be compared to 1980s Jordan or 2009 LeBron.

[Axe]

Well show me a series when Pippen actually won carrying his team vs a dominant defense like Kawhi did vs Embiid/Butler/Simmons trio? You are showing me series that Pippen lost and think it seals his argument against Kawhi, kind of silly actually.
The sixers are never the warriors of the east. You're just hyping them only because kawhi made them go home. :no:

Btw i find it hilarious how this dude somehow kept on suggesting that the sixers are a superteam when they; a) never had a 60-win season yet in the last 5 years and b) no ecf or finals appearance yet in the same period. So saying that just because of the trio they had is kinda overrated.

Also mocks pippen for the bulls' loss against the knicks in the '94 ecsf. You should know that the latter had the hca during that time, courtesy for being the second seed in the east since they have two more wins in the rs than the former.

[insidious301]

There's no proof that 1994 Pippen was on Kawhi's level. Pippen was still in a sweep that year, so his advanced stats should of been higher. Now compare his advanced stats to Kawhi? Not even close

You were already given plenty of proof. Blame yourself for not understanding what the numbers say. We know that 94 Pippen had congruent box play with 17 Kawhi along with similar value over replacement. Not to mention, Pippen was a better defender. This during an era allowing him to have higher defensive impact.


2017 Kawhi should be compared to 1980s Jordan or 2009 LeBron.

Then so should 94 Pippen like the stats suggest.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You were already given plenty of proof. Blame yourself for not understanding what the numbers say. We know that 94 Pippen had congruent box play with 17 Kawhi along with similar value over replacement. Not to mention, Pippen was a better defender. This during an era allowing him to have higher defensive impact.



Then so should 94 Pippen like the stats suggest.

Kawhi is more then doubling Pippen in WS/48, nearly tripling him in BPM, and an entire 1.0 more in VORP. Its not even close, what are you drunk tonight? Hahahah It takes me 10 seconds to look up the stats and prove you wrong.

[insidious301]

Kawhi is more then doubling Pippen in WS/48, nearly tripling him in BPM, and an entire 1.0 more in VORP. Its not even close, what are you drunk tonight? Hahahah It takes me 10 seconds to look up the stats and prove you wrong.

What an embarrassing post by you. Looks like I'll have to school you on the numbers again. 17 Kawhi's bpm is actually 9 compared to 94 Pippen's 8. So no that isn't "nearly tripling" Pippen you big dope. Both of them also rate at 7 in value over replacement. These are the best individual impact stats available, and they also confirm both players were on equal footing. Class is in session, HBK.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What an embarrassing post by you. Looks like I'll have to school you on the numbers again. 17 Kawhi's bpm is actually 9 compared to 94 Pippen's 8. So no that isn't "nearly tripling" Pippen you big dope. Both of them also rate at 7 in value over replacement. These are the best individual impact stats available, and they also confirm both players were on equal footing. Class is in session, HBK.

You keep bringing up strictly regular season stats, that's when Kawhi is coasting and he still beats Pippen. Playoff time Kawhi runs laps around Pippen.

Your entire argument is regular season,now that's pathetic. You better have Steve Nash and James Harden in your top 5 GOATS the next time I see your list. You do love reg season after all

[Axe]

Gosh, you are like 3ball too.

[insidious301]

You keep bringing up strictly regular season stats, that's when Kawhi is coasting and he still beats Pippen. Playoff time Kawhi runs laps around Pippen.

Your entire argument is regular season,now that's pathetic. You better have Steve Nash and James Harden in your top 5 GOATS the next time I see your list. You do love reg season after all

And you keep ignoring an 82 game sample for 7 games vs the 90s best defense. Against similar rated defenses that Kawhi faced, Playoff Pippen averaged 25/10/4 on 49% fg. You can't just ignore games and cherrypick the ones you deem fit. Reality doesn't work that way. Meanwhile the numbers still suggest Peak Pippen and 2017 Kawhi were on equal footing.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

And you keep ignoring an 82 game sample for 7 games vs the 90s best defense. Against similar rated defenses that Kawhi faced, Playoff Pippen averaged 25/10/4 on 49% fg. You can't just ignore games and cherrypick the ones you deem fit. Reality doesn't work that way. Meanwhile the numbers still suggest Peak Pippen and 2017 Kawhi were on equal footing.

Regular season arguments are weak, that's why you don't see that many Steve Nash fans.

Kawhi's philosophy is to pace himself until playoffs. He could go all out in reg season if he wanted to do so and win 73 games or whatever. But by finals he will be beat up like Curry in 2016. At that point, guys like you would call him a choker.

So instead of going through all that bullshit, he just crushes your heroes in the playoffs and wins all the rings. You don't like Kawhi right now? Wait a couple more years when he's stacking the rings like ****ing pancakes. You'll be shitting yourself by then and probably busting out old 1970s tapes and stop watching current nba.

[insidious301]

Regular season arguments are weak, that's why you don't see that many Steve Nash fans.

You don't get to ignore an 82 game sample in favor of 7 games. You don't like it? Tough luck! Cherrypicking games wont get you anywhere though.


Kawhi's philosophy is to pace himself until playoffs.

Besides playing defenses Pippen shredded. And again, vs teams with a defense like the 2017 Rockets and Grizzlies, Pippen averaged 25/10/4 and shot 49% from the field. For the season Pippen averaged an 8 bpm and 7 vorp. That's baseline impact with 2017 Kawhi. It is what it is.


So instead of going through all that bullshit, he just crushes your heroes in the playoffs and wins all the rings. You don't like Kawhi right now? Wait a couple more years when he's stacking the rings like ****ing pancakes. You'll be shitting yourself by then and probably busting out old 1970s tapes and stop watching current nba.

Sounds like projection and something you do on your free time. In the meantime, class is in session.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You don't get to ignore an 82 game sample in favor of 7 games. You don't like it? Tough luck! Cherrypicking games wont get you anywhere though.



Besides playing defenses Pippen shredded. And again, vs teams with a defense like the 2017 Rockets and Grizzlies, Pippen averaged 25/10/4 and shot 49% from the field. For the season Pippen averaged an 8 bpm and 7 vorp. That's baseline impact with 2017 Kawhi. It is what it is.



Sounds like projection and something you do on your free time. In the meantime, class is in session.

2017 Kawhi had 8 more votes over LeBron for 1st place MVP and also had 167 more total votes over LeBron. That's funny, how much votes did Pippen have over Jordan that year? Oh ya he wasn't even playing hahahha you're comparing apples to oranges. Kawhi still smokes Pippen even regular season. 2017 was LeBron's best offensive regular season of his career and he still bowed down to Kawhi on MVP voting. So I guess you're putting 1994 Pippen over LeBron 2017 now as well? You're overrating Pippen.

[insidious301]

2017 Kawhi had 8 more votes over LeBron for 1st place MVP and also had 167 more total votes over LeBron. That's funny, how much votes did Pippen have over Jordan that year? Oh ya he wasn't even playing hahahha you're comparing apples to oranges. Kawhi still smokes Pippen even regular season. 2017 was LeBron's best offensive regular season of his career and he still bowed down to Kawhi on MVP voting. So I guess you're putting 1994 Pippen over LeBron 2017 now as well? You're overrating Pippen.

Jordan didn't play in 1994 and Pippen was third in MVP voting. You are in over your head, HBK. Meanwhile Peak Pippen's impact stats still rival Kawhi's!

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Jordan didn't play in 1994 and Pippen was third in MVP voting. You are in over your head, HBK. Meanwhile Peak Pippen's impact stats still rival Kawhi's!

Kawhi was beating out peak offense LeBron in 2017 and you're trying to prop Pippen up over both of them because of what he did in a Jordan less league. You lost your damn mind.

[insidious301]

Kawhi was beating out peak offense LeBron in 2017 and you're trying to prop Pippen up over both of them because of what he did in a Jordan less league. You lost your damn mind.

I am only speaking on what actually happened. Pippen was great in 1994! And his advanced numbers show he is comparable to 2017 Kawhi. We know this because he had equal value over replacement. But Pippen also had an 8 to Kawhi's 9 in isolated box stats. You don't like that, huh? Then go tell Kawhi to perform better.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I am only speaking on what actually happened. Pippen was great in 1994! And his advanced numbers show he is comparable to 2017 Kawhi. We know this because he had equal value over replacement. But Pippen also had an 8 to Kawhi's 9 in isolated box stats. You don't like that, huh? Then go tell Kawhi to perform better.

Asterisk no Jordan in the league, the finals offensive play was a disaster that year too. Meanwhile, Kawhi was competing with LeBron at the peak of his powers and coming off a finals MVP. Kawhi still beat out LeBron in MVP votes by a large margain. Can you say the same for Pippen? No because Jordan was playing baseball and if Jordan was playing then Pippen would of just went back to #2. That's like LeBron just leaving to play baseball this year? Of course Kawhi would dominate the league even more. But all Pippen has to show for it is regular season? And even that he doesn't hold up to Kawhi.

[Axe]

Lol the animosity towards pippen is so real...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lol the animosity towards pippen is so real...

Pippen is great but comparing him to guys like Kawhi or Lebron is taking it too far.

Pippen is in the Wade/Nash/Dirk top 25 GOAT range but not on Kawhi's tier no way.

[insidious301]

Asterisk no Jordan in the league, the finals offensive play was a disaster that year too. Meanwhile, Kawhi was competing with LeBron at the peak of his powers and coming off a finals MVP. Kawhi still beat out LeBron in MVP votes by a large margain. Can you say the same for Pippen? No because Jordan was playing baseball and if Jordan was playing then Pippen would of just went back to #2. That's like LeBron just leaving to play baseball this year? Of course Kawhi would dominate the league even more. But all Pippen has to show for it is regular season? And even that he doesn't hold up to Kawhi.

With or without Jordan, Pippen had his own team. And was still on the level of 2017 just like that numbers suggest. Kawhi didn't even face Lebron in the playoffs that year, but since you want to name drop him. Pippen faced Peak Hakeem, Peak Robinson, Peak Ewing and Barkley. He also finished 3rd in MVP voting like I mentioned above. BTW nobody is saying Pippen = Jordan so what you're doing is strawmanning. Judging by the intelligence you've displayed, you better go look that up.

We're still waiting to hear how 2017 Kawhi was a level above 94 Pippen. The impact both players had is basically equal.

[Axe]

Pippen is great but comparing him to guys like Kawhi or Lebron is taking it too far.

Pippen is in the Wade/Nash/Dirk top 25 GOAT range but not on Kawhi's tier no way.
If scoring is your only basis, then yes. I can agree with the offense part; he's fairly average in that aspect. However, that alone doesn't define him as a whole. When it comes to defense, it's a different story.