Should we asterisk a player's FMVP if the team lost with them on the floor?

[3ball]

Like 2013, when Lebron was a net negative for the series (negative net rating)

[3ball]

Link to Lebron's -0.6 net rating in 13' Finals:

https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4


So lebron averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games and was a net negative for the series - aka literally anyone decent could've won in his place

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yes, 2013 finals LeBron is overrated. He couldn't lead Heat to a better offensive rating then spurs, he had a shit TS, he bricked the final shot on game 6 but was bailed out by Ray Allen.

And his usage relative to his 2nd option was only +1 over Wade. Compare that to Kawhi 2019 finals who was +8 over Siakam.

[SouBeachTalents]

..

It's a good thing Dennis Rodman doesn't care about accolades. Because if he did, he might have been a little miffed about not earning the NBA Finals MVP award. Rodman, who became a cult hero this season as much for his cross-dressing as for his rebound-grabbing, played like a superstar in the Bulls' 87-75 win over Seattle Sunday.

He grabbed 19 rebounds--11 on the offensive end--and chipped in nine points to lead the Bulls to their fourth and his third NBA championship. "As I evaluate the series," said George Karl, "Dennis won two basketball games. They got the extra possessions and extra opportunities with the 11 offensive rebounds."

During the third quarter, you would have sworn there were three or four Rodmans playing for the Bulls. He was everywhere. "Rodman killed us again," said Detlef Schrempf. During one two-minute stretch, he scored five points, made two steals, snared several rebounds and drew a charge. His crowning moment came when he took a feed from Pippen and converted a lefty layup while getting fouled by Schrempf


With about 8 million people ready to jump from the ledge after the Sonics pushed the Bulls further than anybody thought possible, it wasn't Jordan or Pippen who carried the team to a championship, it was Rodman. What he did in Game 6 was tear the Sonics apart with 19 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals, extraordinary energy for a 35-year-old, a blocked shot and no turnovers in 38 minutes. No turnovers. Of the 14 players who were on the floor for significant minutes, Rodman was the only one with no turnovers. "You can call me a lot of stuff," he said, "but the one thing I am is a competitor, a fighter."

Boy, was that evident in the final 15 minutes, when Jordan was having the worst-shooting big game (5 for 18) anybody could remember. With the Bulls leading by 10 points but the game still tight, Rodman grabbed a missed shot and scored for 59-47. Then he took a nice pass from Pippen, scored despite Kemp hanging on him and completed the three-point play for 62-47. From rebounder and scorer, Rodman went to set-up man as he fired a picture-perfect pass to Jordan for the reverse layup that made it 64-47.

Rodman was there the whole time, every minute, controlling or contesting every rebound and loose ball, getting Kemp into foul trouble, which eventually disqualified him with 4:39 left. Jordan would miss, Rodman would rebound. Pippen would miss, Rodman would rebound, Harper and Kerr and Kukoc would miss, Rodman would rebound. Seattle would miss, Rodman would rebound. This is the way, the only way, you can shoot 39.7 percent and win an NBA title.

You want reviews? Luc Longley: "I thought Dennis did everything to win the MVP. He was sensational. Without him, there's no doubt we wouldn't have won tonight."

George Karl: "Rodman won them two ballgames in this series. Game 2 and tonight, he was the reason they were successful. We controlled Jordan for the most part in the series. We put him on the foul line a lot, but without that he had a pretty mediocre game."

Phil Jackson: "It seems like we always got the ball back. Control of the ball was the factor in this game." You know who controls the ball, don't you? Rodman. The Bulls outrebounded Seattle 51-35.

It was as special a night for "The Supporting Cast" as the Bulls have ever had during the Jordan era. "Our team deserves a bow, a hats off," Pippen said. Or as Jordan said, "I'm happy the team kind of pulled me through."

[ELITEpower23]

..

That part

[Roundball_Rock]

..

:lol

It also is funny 2ball suddenly cares about on/off, plus/minus, etc. data. Wait until he sees who the "kings" of that in the 90's were...

[ELITEpower23]

:lol

It also is funny 2ball suddenly cares about on/off, plus/minus, etc. data. Wait until he sees who the "kings" of that in the 90's were...

:lol :lol :lol

Do tell

[Lebron23]

:lol

It also is funny 2ball suddenly cares about on/off, plus/minus, etc. data. Wait until he sees who the "kings" of that in the 90's were...

Lmao. Anyway 2013 spurs would beat majority of jordan's finals opponents in the 1990's

[Roundball_Rock]

Lmao. Anyway 2013 spurs would beat majority of jordan's finals opponents in the 1990's

His entire shtick revolves around the 90's being so weak that a scrub could be a MVP candidate in that era but that same player would be Draymond in today's league.


Do tell

Pippen is elite in any of these metrics, especially in offensive impact. Here is a sampling:

Augmented Plus-Minus for Select Stars 1994-1998

1994: Robinson 7.5, Malone 5.9, Hakeem 5.2, Pippen 3.7, Shaq/Barkley/Miller 3.6, Ewing 3.2, Penny 2.9, Payton -0.2
1995: Robinson 8.4, Pippen 5.8, Shaq/Penny 5.6, Malone 5.3, Hakeem 5.1, Barkley 3.9, Ewing 3.6, Miller 2.4, Payton 2.3, Hill 2.2
1996: Robinson 6.5, Penny 5.6, Pippen 5.5, Malone 5.1, Shaq/Hill 4.1, Hakeem 3.9, Miller 3.6, Barkley 3.1, Ewing/Payton 2.9
1997: Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7, Malone 5.2, Shaq 4.9, Payton 4.5, Penny/Hakeem 4.0, Hill 3.5, Barkley 2.9, Miller 1.8, Robinson 1.6
1998: Shaq 7.8, Malone 5.5, Hill 5.3, Miller 5.1, Pippen/Payton 4.7, Robinson/Ewing 4.6, Barkley 3.6, Hakeem 3.4, Penny 1.9

More:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

More:


Portland Offensive Production (2000-2003)

2000 Blazers: 3rd with Pippen on, 7th with him off
2001 Blazers: 3rd with Pippen on, 12th with him off
2002 Blazers: 7th with Pippen on, 6th with him off
2003 Blazers: 3rd with Pippen on, 22nd with Pippen off

Let's compare that to what we know from Chicago:

1997: 1st with Pippen on, 11th with Pippen off
1998: 4th with Pippen on, 25th with Pippen off

The "off" numbers for Chicago are with Jordan usually "on" when Pippen is "off" and vice versa--so more revealing. For the Clippers, PG always has one or more of Kawhi, Williams, or Harrell with him at all times.

1994: Bulls -2.6 oRTG (21st) with Pippen, 8th with Pippen/Grant/Kukoc (71 games)


More:


How does Pippen compare to other stars in ORAPM?

1997 Offensive RAPM

MJ 4.2
Stockton 3.0
Pippen 2.8
Malone 2.6
Dumars 2.3
Hardaway/Richmond/Iverson 2.0
Hakeem/Payton/Penny 1.9
K. Johnson 1.6
Price/Allen 1.4
Hill/Miller 1.3 (paging tpols )
Ewing 1.2
Kidd 1.1
Kemp 1.0
Barkley 0.9
Mourning/Drexler 0.8

More:


What happened in the playoffs? Pippen was 3rd overall (behind MJ) and 5th in offense.

1997 Playoff ORAPM for Stars

Hakeem 1.6
Pippen 1.4
Drexler/Malone 1.2
Kemp/Payton 1.1
Jordan 0.9
Barkley 0.7
Dumars 0.3
Ewing 0
Stockton/Penny -0.1
Johnson -0.4
T. Hardaway -0.8
Mourning -1.2

How about 1998?

Pippen was 2nd in ORAPM for the RS.

1998 ORAPM for Stars

Barkley 4.5
Pippen 3.7
Stockton 3.2
Shaq/Duncan 3.1
Miller 3
Malone 2.9
Jordan 2.8
T. Hardaway 2.7
Hill 2.1
Iverson 1.9
Payton/Drexler 1.8
Mourning 1.7
Johnson/Richmond 1.5
Allen 1.4
Kemp 0.6
Kidd 0.4
Ewing/Hakeem -0.4

In the playoffs Pippen was 5th--Stockton, like he did in 97', crumbled to -0.2 once the playoff lights came on.

This is stuff I pulled responding to 2ball and his minion's BS. The more you dive into it, the more you will find. All the advanced data tells us the same story about Pippen: elite, dominant impact. :pimp:

[insidious301]

Fantastic posts by Roundball_Rock. You should have this information published for reference. The 2k ppg crowd are in desperate need of a Basketball 101 course.

[Roundball_Rock]

Fantastic posts by Roundball_Rock. You should have this information published for reference. The 2k ppg crowd are in desperate need of a Basketball 101 course.

:cheers:

We should have them as a "sticky" to every 2ball thread. :lol

[HoopsNY]

Like 2013, when Lebron was a net negative for the series (negative net rating)

Can't wait to hear your list of excuses when LeBron wins the title this year. :lol