Pippen isn't on the Wade/Kobe/Lebron/KD/Harden/Kawhi, aka elite 1st option level

[3ball]

Stop trying to put him there.. This thread is dedicated to comparing Pippen's stats to elite 1st options

Toni Kukoc had higher career OBPM than Pippen

[LoneyROY7]

The only one putting him there are the voices in your head.

[Lebron23]

Stop trying to put him there.. This thread is dedicated to comparing Pippen's stats to elite 1st options

Pippen got you shook.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan still 1-9.

It is amusing he cites BPM. Pippen peaked at 3rd in the NBA in that metric (as a #1 option in 94', 95'). Not a first option, doe. :lol

Box Plus/Minus 1994

1. David Robinson* • SAS 11.9
2. John Stockton* • UTA 8.0
3. Scottie Pippen* • CHI 7.7
4. Hakeem Olajuwon* • HOU 6.8
5. Shaquille O'Neal* • ORL 6.8
6. Mark Price • CLE 6.4
7. Mookie Blaylock • ATL 5.7
8. Karl Malone* • UTA 5.7
9. Nate McMillan • SEA 5.6
10. Patrick Ewing* • NYK 5.2


Box Plus/Minus 1995

1. David Robinson* • SAS 9.2
2. John Stockton* • UTA 9.0
3. Scottie Pippen* • CHI 7.5
4. Clyde Drexler* • TOT 6.5
5. Charles Barkley* • PHO 6.3
6. Shaquille O'Neal* • ORL 5.8
7. Karl Malone* • UTA 5.6
8. Hakeem Olajuwon* • HOU 5.4
9. Rod Strickland • POR 5.3
10. Reggie Miller* • IND 5.2

[Lebron23]

Pippen deranged syndrome.

[3ball]

1-9ball. :lol

Career obpm playoffs

1. Jordan... 8.81
2. Lebron... 7.65
3. Curry...... 6.37
4. Durant... 6.32


Jordan's advantage over Lebron > Lebron's advantage over Durant.. :bowdown:

(curry is product of 3-pt drill format so he isn't considered)

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen deranged syndrome.

Yup, he is only getting worse. :lol

[3ball]

Jordan still 1-9.

It is amusing he cites BPM. Pippen peaked at 3rd in the NBA in that metric (as a #1 option in 94', 95'). Not a first option, doe. :lol

1. David Robinson* • SAS 11.9
2. John Stockton* • UTA 8.0
3. Scottie Pippen* • CHI 7.7
4. Hakeem Olajuwon* • HOU 6.8
5. Shaquille O'Neal* • ORL 6.8
6. Mark Price • CLE 6.4
7. Mookie Blaylock • ATL 5.7
8. Karl Malone* • UTA 5.7
9. Nate McMillan • SEA 5.6
10. Patrick Ewing* • NYK 5.2


Box Plus/Minus

1. David Robinson* • SAS 9.2
2. John Stockton* • UTA 9.0
3. Scottie Pippen* • CHI 7.5
4. Clyde Drexler* • TOT 6.5
5. Charles Barkley* • PHO 6.3
6. Shaquille O'Neal* • ORL 5.8
7. Karl Malone* • UTA 5.6
8. Hakeem Olajuwon* • HOU 5.4
9. Rod Strickland • POR 5.3
10. Reggie Miller* • IND 5.2

BPM based on steals, which is why Pippen and Stockton are clearly overrated by the stat lol.. and Robinson for that matter, who peaked at 20 ppg in playoffs and sucked, as you like to point out

And again, that's regular season - in the playoffs, Kukoc had higher BPM...

Btw, I cited obpm... when you have to lie, you lose.. you have reputation as a liar

[Roundball_Rock]

2020 NBA playoffs starting and this guy is still unhinged about a guy who retired in 2004 and who was last a superstar during the Clinton administration. :lol

[3ball]

2020 NBA playoffs starting and this guy is still unhinged about a guy who retired in 2004 and who was last a superstar during the Clinton administration. :lol

Playoffs are starting?

I don't watch fake shit. If I want that, I'll watch pro wrestling

[NBAGOAT]

BPM based on steals, which is why Pippen and Stockton are clearly overrated by the stat lol.. and Robinson for that matter, who peaked at 20 ppg in playoffs and sucked, as you like to point out

And again, that's regular season - in the playoffs, Kukoc had higher BPM...

Btw, I cited obpm... when you have to lie, you lose.. you have reputation as a liar

man if pippen's overvalued by bpm because of steals then jordan's defense is even more overvalued.

[Manny98]

Pippen deranged syndrome.
:oldlol:

[3ball]

man if pippen's overvalued by bpm because of steals then jordan's defense is even more overvalued.

No because everyone with good steals gets a bump from BPM, not just Pippen, Jordan, and Stockton

Also, Jordan is #1 in all stats, aka PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons, and PPG, while Pippen is #130 in PER and other advanced stats.. all of pippen's stats say he's between #60-150 all-time, but the rings inflate him to top 30 in some people's minds.. it's sad..

People don't realize that the goat would win with anyone in the 90's two-star format.. he didn't need Pippen to win - he just needed the 90's, which didn't require a bevy of HOF teammates to win like the 80's required..

[Roundball_Rock]

We know for a fact Pippen was all-NBA first team and a MVP candidate as a first option. No way to spin away from that. It's a historical fact. Not exactly John Starks or Rik Smits, eh?

[SouBeachTalents]

No because everyone with good steals gets a bump from BPM, not just Pippen, Jordan, and Stockton

Also, Jordan is #1 in all stats, aka PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons, and PPG, while Pippen is #130 in PER and other advanced stats.. all of pippen's stats say he's between #60-150 all-time, but the rings inflate him to top 30 in some people's minds.. it's sad..

People don't realize that the goat would win with anyone in the 90's two-star format.. he didn't need Pippen to win - he just needed the 90's, which didn't require a bevy of HOF teammates to win like the 80's required..
LeBron's top 5 in virtually all of those, usually 1st or 2nd, yet you leave him outside the top 10

[3ball]

We know for a fact Pippen was all-NBA first team and a MVP candidate as a first option. No way to spin away from that. It's a historical fact. It is a shame no one else had that luxury as their second option in the 90's, outside of 2ball's hero.

Guys that finish #3 for MVP aren't "candidates" unless there's legitimate debate throughout the season whether they're MVP or not - there was no such ongoing discussion with Pippen - most people don't know or care that he was #3 because no one ever thought Pippen and MVP in the same sentence

his peak ppg and general scoring ability isn't anywhere near elite for 1st options - this is common knowledge, which is why Phil preferred Kukoc in the clutch

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron's top 5 in virtually all of those, usually 1st or 2nd, yet you leave him outside the top 10

:lol

Let's compare Pippen in advanced stats to some other 90's HOF'ers. Note that Payton isn't listed because BP doesn't have Payton top 40 AT. Drexler is top 40 but not top 30 so he doesn't have a graphic/fully entry like the top 30 AT do.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Pippen-GOAT-card.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Stockton-player-card.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Ewing-player-card.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Miller-player-card.png

Pippen laps Ewing and Miller--guys who 2ball and his minions rave about.

All-NBA 1st Teams

Pippen 3
Miller/Payton/Drexler/Richmond/Dumars/Johnson/Kemp/Worthy 3

Pippen crushes a cadre of players 2ball and his minions rave about as being awesome. Yet Pippen sucks? If so, MJ's era was trash by implication. :lol

All the data goes in one direction, which is why 2ball is becoming unhinged.

[ImKobe]

Guys that finish #3 for MVP aren't "candidates" unless there's legitimate debate throughout the season whether they're MVP or not - there was no such ongoing discussion with Pippen - most people don't know or care that he was #3 because no one ever thought Pippen and MVP in the same sentence

his peak ppg and general scoring ability isn't anywhere near elite for 1st options - this is common knowledge, which is why Phil preferred Kukoc in the clutch

Also lol @him saying no one else had the luxury, when Hakeem won with Drexler & Duncan won with D-Rob that same decade. Apparently Malone didn't have Stockton and Shaq didn't have Penny either. Penny was 2x first team and was an MVP candidate in '96 when he finished 3rd in MVP voting! No one else had the luxury!

[AussieSteve]

Of all the things one could dedicate his or her life to.

Learning and knowledge. A rewarding career. The pursuit of religious and spiritual enlightenment. Helping others and investing in people. Friends and family. Etc...

You have chosen trying to convince strangers on an internet forum that a 90s basketball player in the greatest of all time.

Sad.

[Roundball_Rock]

IMKobe, another one of 2ball's poodles to his boss' rescue. :lol


when Hakeem won with Drexler

Drexler wasn't a superstar by 95'. :facepalm Drexler was all-NBA 1st team a grand total of once BTW. If you watched back then you would know who Otis Thorpe was.


Duncan won with D-Rob that same decade

Robinson wasn't a superstar by 99'. :facepalm If you watched back then you would know who Sean Elliott was.


Malone didn't have Stockton

Stockton was never a MVP candidate--highest finish was 7th. Only in your diseased minds when you have your circle jerk with your boss 2ball.


Penny was 2x first team and was an MVP candidate in '96

:oldlol: at this mini-2ball moronically comparing having prime Penny for 2 years to having Pippen for his entire prime, except one year and that was due to MJ's own choice.

[3ball]

:lol

Let's compare Pippen in advanced stats to some other 90's HOF'ers. Note that Payton isn't listed because BP doesn't have Payton top 40 AT. Drexler is top 40 but not top 30 so he doesn't have a graphic/fully entry like the top 30 AT do.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Pippen-GOAT-card.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Stockton-player-card.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Ewing-player-card.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Miller-player-card.png

Pippen laps Ewing and Miller--guys who 2ball and his minions rave about.

All-NBA 1st Teams

Pippen 3
Miller/Payton/Drexler/Richmond/Dumars/Johnson/Kemp/Worthy 3

Pippen crushes a cadre of players 2ball and his minions rave about as being awesome. Yet Pippen sucks? If so, MJ's era was trash by implication. :lol

All the data goes in one direction, which is why 2ball is becoming unhinged.

^^^ all those guys led teams to the Finals twice (Stockton, Ewing, Miller), while 94' Pippen was 4th on his own team in playoff win contribution (ws/48) and frozen out on important possessions.. he was literally a laughing mockery and cringeworthy embarassment when he got his chance to steer the ship... And he had a 3-peat system and a severely upgraded cast!

Btw, pippen ranks 130th in PER and 164846th in ws/48 (winning contribution).. his stats are horrible

[AussieSteve]

Also lol @him saying no one else had the luxury, when Hakeem won with Drexler & Duncan won with D-Rob that same decade. Apparently Malone didn't have Stockton and Shaq didn't have Penny either. Penny was 2x first team and was an MVP candidate in '96 when he finished 3rd in MVP voting! No one else had the luxury!

Shaq only got one season with all NBA level penny and he made the finals. He and Penny we both only 22/23. No shame in losing to two veteren 1st ballot HoFers.

In 96, Shaq was injured. In 97 he went to the lakers.

[SouBeachTalents]

^^^ all those guys led teams to the Finals twice (Stockton, Ewing, Miller), while 94' Pippen was 4th on his own team in playoff win contribution (ws/48) and frozen out on important possessions.. he was literally a laughing mockery and cringeworthy embarassment when he got his chance to steer the ship
What the hell are you talking about? Reggie made the Finals once in his career, and Ewing was injured in '99

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaq only got one season with all NBA level penny and he made the finals. He and Penny we both only 22/23. No shame in losing to two veteren 1st ballot HoFers.

In 96, Shaq was injured. In 97 he went to the lakers.

Exactly--and these fools don't realize Shaq/Penny prove the point: if you put two MVP level players together with both in their primes look at what happens.

Most teams didn't have that. They had Robinson/Elliott, Ewing/Starks, Hakeem/Thorpe, Miller/Smits (not even a superstar #1 option), Price/Daughtery (not even a superstar #1 option), etc.

Malone/Stockton came close to the Bulls but 1) Stockton was not a MVP caliber player 2) this exception also proves the rule: another case where two HOF players played together for the entire decade.

Let's face it, this is the core of their insecurity: Jordan had the best team behind him.


Reggie made the Finals once in his career, and Ewing was injured in '99

The same Reggie who Pippen and even Kukoc outplayed in the ECF (plus in Game 7). So he is awesome but can't outplay scrub Pippen? :lol The constant holes in their unhinged tales.

BTW, the East somehow wasn't "weak" in 2000? Catch that hypocrisy. Indiana made it after every other 90's era EC contender declined and no teams emerged to replace them. They couldn't make it otherwise.

Ewing made it simply because the best player retired at his peak--a freak case.

[ImKobe]

IMKobe, another one of 2ball's poodles to his bosses' rescue. :lol



Drexler wasn't a superstar by 95'. :facepalm



Robinson wasn't a superstar by 99'. :facepalm



Stockton was never a MVP candidate--highest finish was 7th.



:oldlol: at this moron comparing having Penny for 2 years to having Pippen for his entire prime, except one year and that was due to MJ's own choice.

Oh, so now Drexler was no longer a superstar when he won with Hakeem? Didn't Drexler average 36/10/5 on 60.6%FG in the two elimination games against Utah? Didn't Drexler average 22/10/7 in the Finals when they swept Shaq & Penny?

Oh, so Robinson was a scrub in '99 now? He didn't lead the league in WS/48, DBPM & DRTG? He didn't average 16/10 with 1.4 stl 2.4 blk in just 31.7 mpg? He didn't lead the Spurs in steals, DBPM & BPM in the Playoffs while having the same WS/48 as Duncan?


You're a bigger troll than 3Ball at this point.

[ImKobe]

Shaq only got one season with all NBA level penny and he made the finals. He and Penny we both only 22/23. No shame in losing to two veteren 1st ballot HoFers.

In 96, Shaq was injured. In 97 he went to the lakers.

Shaq was injured for 28 games and they still won 60. Penny did his thing. My point here is that Jordan wasn't the only player with a great 2nd option in the 90s, plenty of players had them. 3Ball is toying with this fake Pippen fan/deranged Lebron stan to the point where he's blatantly making up shit.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What the hell are you talking about? Reggie made the Finals once in his career, and Ewing was injured in '99

geekball at it again :oldlol:

Never watched then just like he hasn't watched in years. Pro surfer @ BRef tho.

[3ball]

What the hell are you talking about? Reggie made the Finals once in his career, and Ewing was injured in '99

I keep thinking that Reggie beat the 98' Bulls...

But you're right - MJ overcame Pippen (16.6 on 39%) getting outplayed by Smits (16.3 on 55%)...

It was similar to the 92' ECSF, when Pippen (16 on 40%) was destroyed by X-man (19 on 50%)... Or when Pippen (15.7 on 34%), was destroyed by Kemp (23 on 50%)

Ultimately, Pippen's scoring was either exceeded or matched with better efficiency (outplayed) in 42% of the series, including 33% during the championship years and Finals

[3ball]

Shaq was injured for 28 games and they still won 60. Penny did his thing. My point here is that Jordan wasn't the only player with a great 2nd option in the 90s, plenty of players had them. 3Ball is toying with this fake Pippen fan/deranged Lebron stan to the point where he's blatantly making up shit.

What did I make up

Pippen wasn't considered an elite scorer in the 90's - everyone knew he was a system player - he didn't do shit for the Rockets and was exposed

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Definitely not as a scorer. I would say Pippen is in the Jason Kidd scoring class. Overall player though I think Pippen can hold his own with a few of those guys.

[Roundball_Rock]

geekball at it again :oldlol:

Never watched then just like he hasn't watched in years. Pro surfer @ BRef tho.

Only the PPG section of BBR. :lol

It is sad he has suckers like tpols and IMKobe hanging on his every word. 2ball is pathetic but being a 2ball poodle? Sad. None of these people watched then. IMKobe obviously didn't. Look at this thread or saying Pippen sucked as a finisher in the Pippen/PG thread. It is embarrassing but they comfort each other in the embrace of their shared ignorance.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Only the PPG section of BBR. :lol

It is sad he has suckers like tpols and IMKobe hanging on his every word. 2ball is pathetic but being a 2ball poodle? Sad.

:oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

Shaq was injured for 28 games and they still won 60. Penny did his thing. My point here is that Jordan wasn't the only player with a great 2nd option in the 90s, plenty of players had them. 3Ball is toying with this fake Pippen fan/deranged Lebron stan to the point where he's blatantly making up shit.

you're technically right but none of those are long lasting like pippen. Shaq had penny for really a couple years, same for drexler, drob was great a little longer as duncan's sidekick but at most goes from 98-01. In duncan's case, he really didnt have a 3rd guy like grant or rodman

[3ball]

Definitely not as a scorer. I would say Pippen is in the Jason Kidd scoring class. Overall player though I think Pippen can hold his own with a few of those guys.

I used to "hold my own" with some NBA guys too

Doesn't mean anything at all

The fact that you chose those words makes my case

"hold his own".. :facepalm:

Btw, since when is a guy who was #2 on his own team in DPOY votes every year, be considered a defender where defense is an excuse for everything?

REALIST... "Pippen was horrific in the 96' Finals"

LEBRON STAN... "Pippen's defense was so great, that it made up for that

REALIST... "But everyone Pippen guarded got off and outplayed him, aka Schrempf, Kemp, Payton"

LEBRON STAN... "b-b-but his team defense.. oh my god he moved his feet so well... Goodness gracious getting hands in passing lanes.. hurrr durrr..".. quickly posts a one-off quote from someone saying Pippen played good defense


^^^ that's how the myth of pippen's defense gets perpetuated

[Roundball_Rock]

you're technically right but none of those are long lasting like pippen.

Which is the point--IMKobe is too dumb to grasp it, though. :lol If prime Shaq and prime Penny played together for a decade they would rival Jordan/Pippen, as would prime Drexler and prime Hakeem if they were together a decade or Duncan/Robinson with both in their primes. They weren't, though.

Robinson being discussed here is a joke. Robinson wasn't Robinson by 1999--he was down to 16/10/2 after peaking at 30/11/5. Drexler was still a top 10 player in 95', although not the superstar he was in 92' and earlier. So Hakeem had Drexler as a top 10 player for about 40 total games, PO included.

These cases are being compared to MJ/Pippen playing a decade together--including MJ getting peak Pippen for 95' and 96'. Hakeem never played with peak Drexler, Duncan never played with peak Robinson. Not even close in those cases.

Good point on a third guys. Who was the third guy on the 95' Rockets or 99' Spurs? :oldlol:

The comp was Ewing/Starks, Miller/Smits, Drexler/Porter, Payton/Kemp, Price/Daughtery/ etc. Hence the crusade because of the insecurity over those duos compared to what Chicago had.

Chicago was clearly the best team of the decade but was vulnerable in several individual series. Both can be true but they don't make that factual argument that the 6 chips were not inevitable instead try to tell us Pippen was Draymond 24/7.

Interesting thought exercise: swap the sidekicks in all those finals and ECF's...E.g., Pippen/Ewing versus Jordan/Starks or Malone/Pippen versus Jordan/Stockton or Drexler/Pippen versus Jordan/Porter etc.

[ImKobe]

What did I make up

Pippen wasn't considered an elite scorer in the 90's - everyone knew he was a system player - he didn't do shit for the Rockets and was exposed

Yeah, he did lose in the first round with Barkley & Hakeem, shot 32.9%FG and got outplayed by a 20 y.o Kobe.

[3ball]

you're technically right but none of those are long lasting tenures with a star like pippen. Shaq had penny for really a couple years, same for drexler, drob was great a little longer as duncan's sidekick but at most goes from 98-01. In duncan's case, he really didnt have a 3rd guy like grant or rodman

Pippen wasn't shit tho - that's the point - look at his season in houston - THAT'S what the triangle elevated and MJ won with

33-year Pippen was INSTANTLY demoted to 3rd option behind 36-year Barkley and Hakeem.. he was a trash system player like Draymond

[ImKobe]

Which is the point--IMKobe is too dumb to grasp it, though. :lol If prime Shaq and prime Penny played together for a decade they would rival Jordan/Pippen, as would prime Drexler and prime Hakeem if they were together a decade or Duncan/Robinson with both in their primes. They weren't, though.

Robinson being discussed here is a joke. Robinson wasn't Robinson by 1999--he was down to 16/10/2 after peaking at 30/11/5. Drexler was still a top 10 player in 95', although not the superstar he was in 92' and earlier. So Hakeem had Drexler as a top 10 player for about 50 total games, PO included.

These cases are being compared to MJ/Pippen playing a decade together--including MJ getting peak Pippen for 95' and 96'. Hakeem never played with peak Drexler, Duncan never played with peak Robinson. Not even close in those cases.

Good point on a third HOF'er. Who was the third guy on the 95' Rockets or 99' Spurs? :oldlol:

The comp was Ewing/Starks, Miller/Smits, Drexler/Porter, Payton/Kemp, Price/Daughtery/ etc. Hence the crusade because of the insecurity over those duos.

"NO ONE HAD HELP LIKE MJ"

"BUT BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE HELP LIKE MJ FOR AS LONG"

D-Rob and Drexler weren't "superstars" when they won, but Pippen apparently was when he barely shot 40% while averaging 17-19 ppg and 5 assists in the 96-98 Playoffs. He didn't have a 20+ PER or shoot higher than 52.6%TS (3 of 4 with 50.4%TS or worse) in their last 4 title runs. Shameless trolling.

[NBAGOAT]

Pippen wasn't shit tho - that's the point - look at his season in houston - THAT'S what the triangle elevated and MJ won with

33-year Pippen was INSTANTLY demoted to 3rd option behind 36-year Barkley and Hakeem.. he was a trash system player like Draymond

Lol you’re manipulating my quote now. And yea one of the most obvious ways ik someone doesn’t know shit about basketball is when they shit on draymond.

We know you’re not high on curry so then who’s the driving factor behind gs averaging 70 for 2 seasons pre kd? You can say klay good luck arguing that lol.

Executives don’t think drays trash either, he got 4yrs 100 and that was a hometown discount. Portland with dray is a title contender to throw out another team that could use him..

[Round Mound]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Lol you’re manipulating my quote now. And yea one of the most obvious ways ik someone doesn’t know shit about basketball is when they shit on draymond.

we know you’re not high on curry so then who’s the driving factor behind gs averaging 70 for 2 seasons pre kd? You can say klay good luck arguing that lol.

Executives don’t think drays trash either, he got 4yrs 100 and that was a hometown discount. Portland with dray is a title contender to throw out another team that could use him..

Warriors were ahead of the curve in offensive strategy - they had a brand advantage on the league for 15' and 16', but the league quickly caught up in the 16' playoffs, so they got KD to make them real champions

the 94' Bulls are a more extreme example of a system team - they had a simple rebounder/dunker at 2nd option and weren't talented, so they won via the 3-peat system/know-how and brand advantage they had on the league.. both the 94' bulls and 16' warriors were system teams that got exposed in Playoffs.. then they added MJ/KD and three-peated

Of course, KD had equal scoring partners in Curry and even Klay, while MJ always scored 10-30 more than Pippen in every series of their careers

[Roundball_Rock]

The counter "examples" we got for other MVP caliber/all-NBA first team duos are the following:

*Duncan playing with a post-prime Robinson. Robinson was 33 by 99', Duncan a second year player. It is bizarre to bring them up since they only overlapped with MJ as MJ for Duncan's rookie year.
*Hakeem playing with Drexler for the final 40 games of Drexler's prime, in a season where he was all-NBA third team (first all-NBA for Clyde since 92', last of his career too). Hakeem and Drexler were both 32.
*Stockton--who was never a MVP candidate. Somehow he got mentioned.
*Shaq/Penny, who overlapped as superstars for two years when Shaq was 22-23 and Penny 23-24.

This somehow is=to Jordan being drafted in 84', Pippen in 87' and growing together and remaining on the same team through 98'. Pippen played his entire prime except one year with Jordan. Jordan played his entire prime except 87' with Pippen.

You can't make this level of stupidity up but IMKobe finds ways to lower the bar in each thread.


Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:applause: 4th most all-NBA first teams of the 90's too. It is funny they say he sucks by hype less accomplished players--who did less than the supposed scrub in the same era. :oldlol:

[3ball]

The counter "examples" we got for other MVP caliber/all-NBA first team duos are the following:

*Duncan playing with a post-prime Robinson. Robinson was 33 by 99', Duncan a second year player.
*Hakeem playing the final 40 games of Drexler's prime, in a season where he was all-NBA third team. Hakeem and Drexler were both 32.
*Stockton--who was never a MVP candidate. Somehow he got mentioned.
*Shaq/Penny, who overlapped as superstars for two years when Shaq was 22-23 and Penny 23-24.

This somehow is=to Jordan being drafted in 84', Pippen in 87' and growing together and remaining on the same team through 98'. Pippen played his entire prime except one year with Jordan. Jordan played his entire prime except 87' with Pippen.

You can't make this level of stupidity up but IMKobe finds ways to lower the bar in each thread.



:applause: 4th most all-NBA first teams of the 90's too. It is funny they say he sucks by hype less accomplished players--who did less than the supposed scrub in the same era. :oldlol:

Pippen's accolades are because of rings, not stats or performance

By definition, the goat wins with anyone in a 2-star vs. 2-star format - so MJ didn't need Pippen, he just needed the 90's (better parity that didn't require many HOF teammates to win like the 80's)

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen's accolades are because of rings, not stats or performance

By definition, the goat wins with anyone in a 2-star vs. 2-star format - so MJ didn't need Pippen, he just needed the 90's (better parity that didn't require many HOF teammates to win like the 80's)
All-NBA Teams have nothing to do with rings, Malone has 14 of them

[ImKobe]

The counter "examples" we got for other MVP caliber/all-NBA first team duos are the following:

*Duncan playing with a post-prime Robinson. Robinson was 33 by 99', Duncan a second year player.
*Hakeem playing the final 40 games of Drexler's prime, in a season where he was all-NBA third team. Hakeem and Drexler were both 32.
*Stockton--who was never a MVP candidate. Somehow he got mentioned.
*Shaq/Penny, who overlapped as superstars for two years when Shaq was 22-23 and Penny 23-24.

This somehow is=to Jordan being drafted in 84', Pippen in 87' and growing together and remaining on the same team through 98'. Pippen played his entire prime except one year with Jordan. Jordan played his entire prime except 87' with Pippen.



:applause: 4th most all-NBA first teams of the 90's too. It is funny they say he sucks by hype less accomplished players--who did less than the supposed scrub in the same era. :oldlol:

Stockton - 16 straight seasons of 21+ PER, Pippen had 5 total, Stockton had 8 seasons of 8+ BPM, Pippen had 0, Stockton had 14 seasons of .200+ WS/48, Pippen had 2
Drexler was the reason the Rockets barely got past the Jazz in the first round by scoring 41 and 31 points on high efficiency in elimination games, matched Penny's production in the Finals as the Rockets swept the Magic that beat MJ & Pippen that same year.


D-Rob was post-prime in '99, but still put up better PER, DBPM, DRTG & WS/48 numbers in RS/Playoffs than Pippen ever did.

[Roundball_Rock]

All-NBA Teams have nothing to do with rings, Malone has 15 of them

:lol

Yup, plus they are voted on before team results are known. If you look at all-NBA teams in the 90's Richmond consistently was ahead of Miller, even though Richmond's teams had zero team success. Same with Grant Hill.

The gaslighting of 2ball and his poodles is pathetic. We all know Pippen was considered a top player then, later, and today. 2ball may fool fools like IMKobe but those of us who were around then are laughing at his attempts. They are trying to tell us he was basically Draymond or Iggy, though. :lol

We also can compare Pippen to Pippen clones. Havlicek is basically 70's Pippen. Do you see anyone comparing him to Draymond on ISH? Hill was Pippen without the defense in the same era. MJ stans, including these idiots here, rave about him.

Hill, Havlicek don't trigger the insecurity of a large fan base, though... :roll:

[ImKobe]

:lol

Yup, plus they are voted on before team results are known. If you look at all-NBA teams in the 90's Richmond consistently was ahead of Miller, even though Richmond's teams had zero team success.

The gaslighting of 2ball and his poodles is pathetic. We all know Pippen was considered a top player then, later, and today. 2ball may fool fools like IMKobe but those of us who were around then are laughing at his attempts. They are trying to tell us he was basically Draymond or Iggy, though. :lol

We also can compare Pippen to Pippen clones. Havlicek is basically 70's Pippen. Do you see anyone comparing him to Draymond on ISH? Russell fans are secure. Hill was Pippen without the defense in the same era. MJ stans rave about him. (LeBron is Pippen-like, just a vastly better version of Pippen/Havlicek/Hill).

Well, Draymond was the leader of a dynasty that made 5 straight Finals and won 3 and led the Playoffs in DWS & was also top 2 in RAPM in 4 out out of the 5 runs. The only comparison I made between Draymond and Pippen was that Pippen's closer to Draymond as a scorer than he is to Lebron, which is actually true when looking at ppg.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I used to "hold my own" with some NBA guys too

Doesn't mean anything at all

The fact that you chose those words makes my case

"hold his own".. :facepalm:

Btw, since when is a guy who was #2 on his own team in DPOY votes every year, be considered a defender where defense is an excuse for everything?

REALIST... "Pippen was horrific in the 96' Finals"

LEBRON STAN... "Pippen's defense was so great, that it made up for that

REALIST... "But everyone Pippen guarded got off and outplayed him, aka Schrempf, Kemp, Payton"

LEBRON STAN... "b-b-but his team defense.. oh my god he moved his feet so well... Goodness gracious getting hands in passing lanes.. hurrr durrr..".. quickly posts a one-off quote from someone saying Pippen played good defense


^^^ that's how the myth of pippen's defense gets perpetuated

I don't care for comparing active players vs retired players. So lets compare Pippen vs Kobe and cut both their careers off towards the end of their primes.

Pippen until 2000 vs Kobe until 2011

Pippen is just .3 less in BPM, 1.4 less in WS/48, 1.4 less in VORP despite 351 less minutes.

So there's nothing that screams Kobe being massively better. Like I said, Pippen holds his own.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Scottie+Pippen&player_id1_select=Scottie+Pippen&player_id1=pippesc01&idx=bbr__players&y1=2000&player_id2_hint=Kobe+Bryant&player_id2_select=Kobe+Bryant&player_id2=bryanko01&idx=bbr__players&y2=2011

[Roundball_Rock]

We get these daily threads. Notice the other large fan bases aren't ripping Wade or Gasol each day. #Security vs. #Insecurity.

I feel bad for the smart, reasonable MJ fans. 2ball and co. are making MJ fans as a whole look bad.

BTW, having LeBron 4th all-time (i.e., lower than most, who have him 2nd or 1st) and MJ>LeBron makes you a LeBron stan, evidently? Unhinged. :lol

Having Pippen 22nd-26th like 95% of the rest of the world does somehow is crazy--saying he is Draymond or Larry Nance or Iggy is the "reasonable" view on Fantasy Island. He has the poodles to back his nuttiness up.

Pippen fans can't worry about the love triangle between MJ/Kobe/LeBron stans and the shifting alliances among the threesome.

[NBAGOAT]

Warriors were ahead of the curve in offensive strategy - they had a brand advantage on the league for 15' and 16', but the league quickly caught up in the 16' playoffs, so they got KD to make them real champions

the 94' Bulls are a more extreme example of a system team - they had a simple rebounder/dunker at 2nd option and weren't talented, so they won via the 3-peat system/know-how and brand advantage they had on the league.. both the 94' bulls and 16' warriors were system teams that got exposed in Playoffs.. then they added MJ/KD and three-peated

Of course, KD had equal scoring partners in Curry and even Klay, while MJ always scored 10-30 more than Pippen in every series of their careers

No the warriors were elite because they were a top 5 defensive team with an offensively inclined roster. You don’t win 70 games only being great on one side of the ball. Dray was the main part of that.

That didn’t come out as much during the kd years in rs because dray started coasting but gs defense in the playoffs was elite.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

We get these daily threads. Notice the other large fan bases aren't ripping Wade or Gasol each day. #Security vs. #Insecurity.

I feel bad for the smart, reasonable MJ fans. 2ball and co. are making MJ fans as a whole look bad.

BTW, having LeBron 4th all-time (i.e., lower than most, who have him 2nd or 1st) and MJ>LeBron makes you a LeBron stan, evidently? Unhinged. :lol

Having Pippen 22nd-26th like 95% of the rest of the world does somehow is crazy--saying he is Draymond or Larry Nance or Iggy is the "reasonable" view on Fantasy Island. He has the poodles to back his nuttiness up.

Pippen fans can't worry about the love triangle between MJ/Kobe/LeBron stans and the shifting alliances among the threesome.

Pippen also wasn't done yet for another 2 years. They could of had 8 rings if it wasn't for Krause/Jackson bitch feud.

1999 playoffs Pippen was a +6.8 with Sam Mack. Hahahah who the hell is Sam Mack? Imagine if Mack was Jordan. And then we know the damage Pippen did to peak Shaq in 2000.

[Roundball_Rock]

MVP voting is tied to team success--All-NBA voting is not. Being on stacked teams may hurt some players in getting accolades because that brings down players' individual stats.

In Pippen's case MJ blotted out the sun and got all the credit.

Prime Pippen with Jordan (1991-1993, 1996-1998): 1 first team all-NBA, 1 top 5 MVP (5th) finish in six seasons
Prime Pippen w/out Jordan (1994, 1995): 2 first team all-NBA, 1 top 5 MVP (3rd) finish in two seasons

In Pippen's case his accolades went up without MJ, despite those being the two "worst" years of team results for the 90's Bulls during the MJ/Pippen/Jackson era.


No the warriors were elite because they were a top 5 defensive team with an offensively inclined roster. You don’t win 70 games only being great on one side of the ball. Dray was the main part of that.

Good points. The 2ball/mini-2balls obsession with Pippen=Green makes no sense. Green was never first team all-NBA, was never perennial all-NBA (two total, same as Klay or Kyrie), was never a MVP candidate, and was never top 10 in scoring like Pippen was. Different tiers of players outside of Fantasy Island.


Pippen also wasn't done yet for another 2 years. They could of had 8 rings if it wasn't for Krause/Jackson bitch feud.

1999 playoffs Pippen was a +6.8 with Sam Mack. Hahahah who the hell is Sam Mack? Imagine if Mack was Jordan. And then we know the damage Pippen did to peak Shaq in 2000.

True. He was no longer a superstar but he was still all-star caliber in 99' and 00'. It is funny, the best teams were in the West by 00' as the East collapsed by then. If Portland was in the East and they go to Game 7 of the finals Pippen would look better on paper.

Pippen was a winner wherever he went. Look at what his teams did each time he left or got hurt. :pimp:

[Axe]

Stop trying to put him there.. This thread is dedicated to comparing Pippen's stats to elite 1st options

Toni Kukoc had higher career OBPM than Pippen
Why do you always love triggering your counterpart so much?

[knicksman]

We get these daily threads. Notice the other large fan bases aren't ripping Wade or Gasol each day. #Security vs. #Insecurity.

I feel bad for the smart, reasonable MJ fans. 2ball and co. are making MJ fans as a whole look bad.

BTW, having LeBron 4th all-time (i.e., lower than most, who have him 2nd or 1st) and MJ>LeBron makes you a LeBron stan, evidently? Unhinged. :lol

Having Pippen 22nd-26th like 95% of the rest of the world does somehow is crazy--saying he is Draymond or Larry Nance or Iggy is the "reasonable" view on Fantasy Island. He has the poodles to back his nuttiness up.

Pippen fans can't worry about the love triangle between MJ/Kobe/LeBron stans and the shifting alliances among the threesome.

We all know that you propping pippen is coz of lebron. But it is what it is bro. Alphas dont respect superteam rings. And no matter how much bitching you do. It wont change our mind. Kawhi > lebron. Dirk > lebron

[Roundball_Rock]

Wait. I thought it was because of Kobe (what you all said for half a decade and then switched overnight to LeBron being the robots you all are)? Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. :lol

It is a revealing, common comment from MJ stans: since MJ stans jumped on the biggest bandwagon of all-time, 90% of them can't grasp anyone other than MJ, Kobe, or LeBron having fans.

Like I said, we can't get tied up in the MJ/LeBron/Kobe stan triangle and how that shifts over time. Let's see how the triad deck shuffles when Giannis becomes the threat.

Kobe stans are quiet on ISH but on social media have went full on LeBron hate in tacit alliance with MJ stans. MJ stans switched from pro-LeBron, anti-Kobe to anti-LeBron, ignoring Kobe. Who knows how it will shake out when Giannis becomes the new threat. It is certainly plausible, and would be amusing if it happens, that MJ stans and LeBron stans unite against the Giannis foe.

One thing is for sure: MJ stans will remain the most insecure of the large fan bases no matter what. :oldlol:

[SATAN]

Shit thread.

[Axe]

Yeah, when something bad or unfortunate happens to mj and suddenly he's gone, i bet it will put a big grin to all of your faces. Just like those who did with kobe's untimely passing.

[FromDowntown]

Pippen deranged syndrome.


Jordan still 1-9.

It is amusing he cites BPM. Pippen peaked at 3rd in the NBA in that metric (as a #1 option in 94', 95'). Not a first option, doe. :lol

Box Plus/Minus 1994

1. David Robinson* • SAS 11.9
2. John Stockton* • UTA 8.0
3. Scottie Pippen* • CHI 7.7
4. Hakeem Olajuwon* • HOU 6.8
5. Shaquille O'Neal* • ORL 6.8
6. Mark Price • CLE 6.4
7. Mookie Blaylock • ATL 5.7
8. Karl Malone* • UTA 5.7
9. Nate McMillan • SEA 5.6
10. Patrick Ewing* • NYK 5.2


Box Plus/Minus 1995

1. David Robinson* • SAS 9.2
2. John Stockton* • UTA 9.0
3. Scottie Pippen* • CHI 7.5
4. Clyde Drexler* • TOT 6.5
5. Charles Barkley* • PHO 6.3
6. Shaquille O'Neal* • ORL 5.8
7. Karl Malone* • UTA 5.6
8. Hakeem Olajuwon* • HOU 5.4
9. Rod Strickland • POR 5.3
10. Reggie Miller* • IND 5.2


Pippen got you shook.


The only one putting him there are the voices in your head.

:roll: Too Good

[FromDowntown]

Pippen deranged syndrome.


Jordan still 1-9.

It is amusing he cites BPM. Pippen peaked at 3rd in the NBA in that metric (as a #1 option in 94', 95'). Not a first option, doe. :lol

Box Plus/Minus 1994

1. David Robinson* • SAS 11.9
2. John Stockton* • UTA 8.0
3. Scottie Pippen* • CHI 7.7
4. Hakeem Olajuwon* • HOU 6.8
5. Shaquille O'Neal* • ORL 6.8
6. Mark Price • CLE 6.4
7. Mookie Blaylock • ATL 5.7
8. Karl Malone* • UTA 5.7
9. Nate McMillan • SEA 5.6
10. Patrick Ewing* • NYK 5.2


Box Plus/Minus 1995

1. David Robinson* • SAS 9.2
2. John Stockton* • UTA 9.0
3. Scottie Pippen* • CHI 7.5
4. Clyde Drexler* • TOT 6.5
5. Charles Barkley* • PHO 6.3
6. Shaquille O'Neal* • ORL 5.8
7. Karl Malone* • UTA 5.6
8. Hakeem Olajuwon* • HOU 5.4
9. Rod Strickland • POR 5.3
10. Reggie Miller* • IND 5.2


Pippen got you shook.


The only one putting him there are the voices in your head.


We know for a fact Pippen was all-NBA first team and a MVP candidate as a first option. No way to spin away from that. It's a historical fact. Not exactly John Starks or Rik Smits, eh?

Or the great Jeff Hornacek :lol

[3ball]

I don't care for comparing active players vs retired players. So lets compare Pippen vs Kobe and cut both their careers off towards the end of their primes.

Pippen until 2000 vs Kobe until 2011

Pippen is just .3 less in BPM, 1.4 less in WS/48, 1.4 less in VORP despite 351 less minutes.

So there's nothing that screams Kobe being massively better. Like I said, Pippen holds his own.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Scottie+Pippen&player_id1_select=Scottie+Pippen&player_id1=pippesc01&idx=bbr__players&y1=2000&player_id2_hint=Kobe+Bryant&player_id2_select=Kobe+Bryant&player_id2=bryanko01&idx=bbr__players&y2=2011

The problem with your analysis is that you only listed 3 stats (all of which Kobe leads btw), and then you don't assign the proper weights/importance to each category.

Categories by importance:

1. Scoring
2. Turnovers
3. offensive rebounds
4. blocks
5. efficiency
6. defensive rebounds
7. steals
8. assists


Advanced stats

1. PER
2. WS/48
3. OBPM
4. VORP

OBPM is a legit measure of offense because nearly all the aspects of offense are captured in the boxscore.. Defensively, the boxscore doesn't capture much about a player's total defensove capability, so dbpm is highly flawed and unreliable, according to the creators.. it simply counts steals, blocks, and defensive rebounds, thereby favoring defensive rebounders and steals artists.. the favoring of rebounders is why bird's dbpm = pippen's

[3ball]

Shit thread.

This thread made me realize the problem with advanced stats - Pippen is good in a couple that favor him for one reason or another, but horrific in other critical stats that everyone thinks stars need to be considered good

For advanced stats to be valid, the player must be decent across the board in all of them and not have gaping holes

One-off stats that favor Pippen

BPM
VORP


Critical stats that pippen is horrible to sub-par in:

WS/48
Shooting Efficiency (ts, fg)
Per Possession Efficiency (ortg,)
PPG
PER

[LAL]

Pippen on Kobe's level? Who in the hell would say that type of garbage? Probably that extreme lebron fanatic. the "kareem pippen" fan simply can't contain himself jezus.

[goozeman]

Pippen on Kobe's level? Who in the hell would say that type of garbage? Probably that extreme lebron fanatic. the "kareem pippen" fan simply can't contain himself jezus.

Pippen is on par with Kobe now cause BPM. What in the word, lol. :kobe: Chicago with Pippen as the man: "Please Jordan come back and save the organization. We suck!" Lakers with Shaq: "Sorry big guy, but we don't really feel we need your services since we have Kobe. Bye!" The parallels between their careers are uncanny, I tell you. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

2ball why do you need your minions to rush to your defense? Why can't you stand up for yourself in any threads? :lol

[3ball]

2ball why do you need your minions to rush to your defense? Why can't you stand up for yourself in any threads? :lol

Because you're saying dumb stuff like pippen = Kobe because of BPM

as if that's the only stat or a good one...

And as if Kobe even has a lower bpm!! He has the higher one! (despite the stat being biased towards rebounders) and higher volume n everything else too.. by a lot

[LAL]

Pippen is on par with Kobe now cause BPM. What in the word, lol. :kobe: Chicago with Pippen as the man: "Please Jordan come back and save the organization. We suck!" Lakers with Shaq: "Sorry big guy, but we don't really feel we need your services since we have Kobe. Bye!" The parallels between their careers are uncanny, I tell you. :oldlol:

:oldlol: :facepalm

It's roundball stategizing and corrupting logic to see his god lebron climb the ladder of goat list, problem is lebron has too weaknesses and faillures, therefore the corruption.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I mean Scottie clearly isn’t on the Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Kawhi, Durant, Steph, Dame type level of alpha corner stone level.

[Axe]

:oldlol: :facepalm

It's roundball stategizing and corrupting logic to see his god lebron climb the ladder of goat list, problem is lebron has too weaknesses and faillures, therefore the corruption.
Well, you mj stans are at fault. It's been months already and you guys with your severe insecurity have been renting free inside the weirdo's goddamn head all the time. :oldlol:

[Axe]

I mean Scottie clearly isn’t on the Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Kawhi, Durant, Steph, Dame type level of alpha corner stone level.
As a team player he's on a very different level tho at least

[3ball]

As a team player he's on a very different level tho at least

That's just bullshit poppycock

You can't articulate what you mean by team player

Kerr was a team player.. BJ was a team player.. Diaw was a team.player.. everyone was a team player.. you simply don't want to give MJ credit for winning with a sub-par cast, even though his goat stats and 6 fmvps say otherwise

Remember, nobody won 3 rings without their sidekick getting at least 1 FMVP or 25-30 ppg.. so how could they win 3 with Pippen, let alone 6?

[Axe]

That's just bullshit poppycock

You can't articulate what you mean by team player

Kerr was a team player.. BJ was a team player.. Diaw was a team.player.. everyone was a team player.. you simply don't want to give MJ credit for winning with a sub-par cast, even though his goat stats and 6 fmvps say otherwise

Remember, nobody won 3 rings without their sidekick getting at least 1 FMVP or 25-30 ppg.. so how could they win 3 with Pippen, let alone 6?
Look, i adore the bulls and the 90s dynasty but I can't completely grasp what you're thinking. I don't think their success has to do with just mj alone. In fact, how well did he do without pippen anyway?

No 50-win seasons
No ecsf appearances
No ecf appearances
No finals appearances
No rings

Yes, pip is not a perfect teammate at all. According to your standards, he's a horrible scorer but that doesn't make him a horrible player as a whole, something you've been trying to imply always but at the same time, end up provoking a madman in this board.

[3ball]

Look, i adore the bulls and the 90s dynasty but I can't completely grasp what you're thinking. I don't think their success has to do with just mj alone. In fact, how well did he do without pippen anyway?

No 50-win seasons
No ecsf appearances
No ecf appearances
No finals appearances
No rings

Yes, pip is not a perfect teammate at all. According to your standards, he's a horrible scorer but that doesn't make him a horrible player as a whole, something you've been trying to imply always but at the same time, end up provoking a madman in this board.

You're pretending that Jordan played many seasons without Pippen - he played his rookie year, got hurt in year 2, and then the 87' season (37/5/5)

Then Pippen came aboard in 88' and played about replacement level VORP (so anyone could replace him) - the Bulls started winning that year because MJ entered his prime and became the best defender in the league - MJ had a Giannis-like season (MVP/dpoy), except with the scoring title and a worse cast (no all-star 2nd option like Middleton)

MJ's dpoy gave the bulls' a #3 defense in 88', but this cratered in 89' when Pippen became a starter and played real minutes.. Pippen sucked and had to learn - he wasn't shutting anyone down and no one thought he'd be a multiple-time champion.. he would've been traded easily if MJ missed "the shot" to upset he #1 SRS team in 89' - that propelled them to the cusp of the Finals that year and contender-status, instead of 1st round loser/rebuild mode..

[Axe]

You're pretending that Jordan played many seasons without Pippen - he played his rookie year, got hurt in year 2, and then the 87' season (37/5/5)

Then Pippen came aboard in 88' and played about replacement level VORP (so anyone could replace him) - the Bulls started winning that year because MJ entered his prime and became the best defender in the league - MJ had a Giannis-like season, except with the scoring title and a worse cast (no all-star 2nd option like Middleton)

MJ's dpoy gave the bulls' a #3 defense in 88', but this cratered in 89' when Pippen became a starter and played real minutes.. Pippen sucked and had to learn - he wasn't shutting anyone down and no one thought he'd be a multiple-time champion.. he would've been traded easily if MJ missed "the shot" to upset he #1 SRS team in 89' - that propelled them to the cusp of the Finals that year and contender-status, instead of 1st round loser/rebuild mode..
Lmao it's not just these two propelling the team; they didn't succeed until pj took the coaching over, alongside some decent role players as well. And don't tell me about doug collins again, you freak. He didn't prove himself well even with the other teams.

Anyway, despite losing mj to retirement in '93, the bulls still qualified for the '94 playoffs and even swept the cavaliers in the first round so that says a lot about them. You're just so hellbent in looking for pippen's shortcomings so that's why you couldn't determine the impact that he gave for his team.

Even phil jackson thought that they were supposed to rebuild without baldan but guess what? From his expectation of them winning at least 49 games, the bulls exceeded it by six games, winning a total of 55. The one responsible for spearheading them during his absence was ofc, none other than tree trunk pippen.

[3ball]

Lmao it's not just these two propelling the team; they didn't succeed until pj took the coaching over, alongside some decent role players as well. And don't tell me about doug collins again, you freak. He didn't prove himself well even with the other teams.

Anyway, despite losing mj to retirement in '93, the bulls still qualified for the '94 playoffs and even swept the cavaliers in the first round so that says a lot about them. You're just so hellbent in looking for pippen's shortcomings so that's why you couldn't determine the impact that he gave for his team.

Even phil jackson thought that they were supposed to rebuild without baldan but guess what? From his expectation of them winning at least 49 games, the bulls exceeded it by six games, winning a total of 55. The one responsible for spearheading them during his absence was ofc, none other than tree trunk pippen.

Huh?

Phil inherited a team that was already on the cusp of the Finals

Jordan carried a low seed to within a couple games of the Finals

So you're just making stuff up.. you don't know anything

And I don't have to look for pippen's shortcomings - I was there - I know what happened.. Pippen was the punchline in jokes all the way until he won ring #4.. then people started going along with the hypnosis of winning so many rings.. and he infact played like trash in 96' but people stopped making the jokes.. that shows how much no one paid attention to him

And the 94' team won because they had 3-peat experience, an upgraded roster, and a chip on shoulder.. they still sucked in the playoffs, especially Pippen.. they only swept the Cavs because the Cavs missed their entire starting 5.. lol. Otherwise, everyone said they would've won.. they always had many more good players than the bulls

[Axe]

Huh?

Phil inherited a team that was already on the cusp of the Finals

Jordan carried a low seed to within a couple games of the Finals

So you're just making stuff up.. you don't know anything

And I don't have to look for pippen's shortcomings - I was there - I know what happened.. Pippen was the punchline in jokes all the way until he won ring #4.. then people started going along with the hypnosis of winning so many rings.. and he infact played like trash in 96' but people stopped making the jokes.. that shows how much no one paid attention to him

And the 94' team won because they had 3-peat experience, an upgraded roster, and a chip on shoulder.. they still sucked in the playoffs, especially Pippen.. they only swept the Cavs because the Cavs missed their entire starting 5.. lol. Otherwise, everyone said they would've won.. they always had many more good players than the bulls
:oldlol:

Have it your way then, partner. In the end, this one still stands.

No pip, no chip.

Btw, the bulls in '97-98 season struggled to win games until pippen came back from injury, winning 13 games in a row.

[3ball]

:oldlol:

Have it your way then, partner. In the end, this one still stands.

No pip, no chip.

Btw, the bulls in '97-98 season struggled to win games until pippen came back from injury, winning 13 games in a row.

no 90's, no chip

Michael didn't need Pippen, he just needed the 90's, when only 1-2 stars were needed to win the East (instead of many HOF's like the 80's East)... obviously, the goat will win with anyone in a 2-star format

[Axe]

no 90's, no chip

Michael didn't need Pippen, he just needed the 90's, when only 1-2 stars were needed to win the East (instead of many HOF's like the 80's East)... obviously, the goat will win with anyone in a 2-star format
Still he was winless without pip and phil

[3ball]

Still he was winless without pip and phil

But given the facts we know, that means nothing

We know that 89' MJ was nearly beating the champs WITHOUT phil, despite Pippen only getting 9 on 40%... bulls win the title with anyone else remotely decent in Pippen' place

That alone destroys the Phil argument... again, we know that mj overcomes the Pistons in 89' if anyone could do better than Pippen's 9 on 40%

So MJ didn't need Pippen in 89' to win, and he already didn't have Phil.. that kills your argument

[Axe]

But given the facts we know, that means nothing

We know that 89' MJ was nearly beating the champs WITHOUT phil, despite Pippen only getting 9 on 40%... bulls win the title with anyone else remotely decent in Pippen' place

That alone destroys the Phil argument... again, we know that mj overcomes the Pistons in 89' if anyone could do better than Pippen's 9 on 40%

So MJ didn't need Pippen in 89' to win, and he already didn't have Phil.. that kills your argument
Which facts? Of course the pistons during those years were defensive stalwarts so they were a tough team to contend with and pippen was still growing during that time. Also, the bulls couldn't even take them to 7 games with doug collins so wth exactly are you trying to point out here?

[3ball]

Which facts? Of course the pistons during those years were defensive stalwarts so they were a tough team to contend with and pippen was still growing during that time. Also, the bulls couldn't even take them to 7 games with doug collins so wth exactly are you trying to point out here?

That Pippen averaged 9 on 40% in the 89' ECF (and missed the last 2 games), yet the bulls still took the Pistons 6 tough games.. so anyone decent in Pippen's place would've allowed the Bulls to win

So MJ didn't need Pippen to win in 89'... He needed anyone else!!.. anyone OTHER than Pippen would've won, so he didn't need Pippen and already didn't have Phil

Heck, lebron gets beat by record amount when his sidekick gets 9 on 40%.. and that's with veteran high-seeds, not rookie low seed like the 89' bulls

[ImKobe]

:oldlol: :facepalm

It's roundball stategizing and corrupting logic to see his god lebron climb the ladder of goat list, problem is lebron has too weaknesses and faillures, therefore the corruption.

Yeah, we can all see through the bullshit. He's a Lebron fan pretending to be a Pippen fan. He exposed his true colors in other threads when it came to Kobe, we know what side he's on.

[Axe]

Yeah, we can all see through the bullshit. He's a Lebron fan pretending to be a Pippen fan. He exposed his true colors in other threads when it came to Kobe, we know what side he's on.
I'm not sure about this because he actually made a thread dedicated to pippen 10 years ago.

[Axe]

That Pippen averaged 9 on 40% in the 89' ECF (and missed the last 2 games), yet the bulls still took the Pistons 6 tough games.. so anyone decent in Pippen's place would've allowed the Bulls to win

So MJ didn't need Pippen to win in 89'... He needed anyone else!!.. anyone OTHER than Pippen would've won, so he didn't need Pippen and already didn't have Phil

Heck, lebron gets beat by record amount when his sidekick gets 9 on 40%.. and that's with veteran high-seeds, not rookie low seed like the 89' bulls
Like i said, the piston defense was tough. So that's why he mostly struggled with his shots but t'was a long time ago. Besides, mj and the bulls shone in the 90s. You probably expected too much if you think they would have dominated in the late 80s.

[knicksman]

Yeah, we can all see through the bullshit. He's a Lebron fan pretending to be a Pippen fan. He exposed his true colors in other threads when it came to Kobe, we know what side he's on.

and he has the nerve to call everyone insecure. And worse, he uses 2 accounts. Roundball for trolling and dmavs for serious discussions. LOL

[ImKobe]

and he has the nerve to call everyone insecure. And worse, he uses 2 accounts. Roundball for trolling and dmavs for serious discussions. LOL

Thought about him potentially being DMAVS, he posts in a similar fashion.

[knicksman]

Thought about him potentially being DMAVS, he posts in a similar fashion.

I was observing him too coz they posts alike then suddenly he was using dmavs familiar line. Which is he was being called a lebron hater the other day and now a lebron stan.

[3ball]

Like i said, the piston defense was tough. So that's why he mostly struggled with his shots but t'was a long time ago. Besides, mj and the bulls shone in the 90s. You probably expected too much if you think they would have dominated in the late 80s.

No, it isn't too much to expect a 2nd option to get more than 9 on 40%

Are you saying that any 2nd option would get 9 on 40% against the Pistons?? Is that what you're saying?

Because Worthy got FMVP and destroyed them.. he was called the Piston-killer and Big Game James because of his domination of the Pistons

So what are you saying? Are you saying that all 2nd options will get 9 on 40% against the Pistons?. because that's obviously the dumbest thing anyone has ever said

Ultimately, 89' MJ nearly beat the champs with just 9 on 40% from Pippen, so he obviously would've won with someone else instead of Pippen - that proves he didn't need Pippen to win in 89', and Phil wasn't there in 89', so he didn't need either to win

[r0drig0lac]

Of all the things one could dedicate his or her life to.

Learning and knowledge. A rewarding career. The pursuit of religious and spiritual enlightenment. Helping others and investing in people. Friends and family. Etc...

You have chosen trying to convince strangers on an internet forum that a 90s basketball player in the greatest of all time.

Sad.
hahahaha

[Axe]

No, it isn't too much to expect a 2nd option to get more than 9 on 40%

Are you saying that any 2nd option would get 9 on 40% against the Pistons?? Is that what you're saying?

Because Worthy got FMVP and destroyed them.. he was called the Piston-killer and Big Game James because of his domination of the Pistons

So what are you saying? Are you saying that all 2nd options will get 9 on 40% against the Pistons?. because that's obviously the dumbest thing anyone has ever said

Ultimately, 89' MJ nearly beat the champs with just 9 on 40% from Pippen, so he obviously would've won with someone else instead of Pippen - that proves he didn't need Pippen to win in 89', and Phil wasn't there in 89', so he didn't need either to win
You didn't read the whole of my last sentence. I suggest you to read it again.

[3ball]

You didn't read the whole of my last sentence. I suggest you to read it again.

Nobody said anything about dominating the 80's - but the bulls would've won in 89' with a sidekick to replace/exceed pippen's 9 on 40%... winning in 89' would've relegated the Pistons to another victim of MJ, just like Ewing, Malone, etc.. That's always the result when MJ gets any sort of help - 16 on bad efficiency is usually enough sidekick help for MJ to beat anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format.. and it makes sense that the goat wins with anyone passable in a 2-star format

[KobesFinger]

Nobody said anything about dominating the 80's - but the bulls would've won in 89' with a sidekick to replace/exceed pippen's 9 on 40%... winning in 89' would've relegated the Pistons to another victim of MJ, just like Ewing, Malone, etc.. That's always the result when MJ gets any sort of help - 16 on bad efficiency is usually enough sidekick help for MJ to beat anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format.. and it makes sense that the goat wins with anyone passable in a 2-star format

Do the Bulls win in 89 with 92 or 94 Pippen? If not, who is the worst player you could make the second option and they win?

[97 bulls]

3balls argument is dumb. Why are we even dignifying it? Hes comparing 2nd year Pippen in 89 to prime James Worthy. Who's saying that 2nd year Pippen is just as good much less better than James Worthy in his prime? No shit

[Hey Yo]

That Pippen averaged 9 on 40% in the 89' ECF (and missed the last 2 games), yet the bulls still took the Pistons 6 tough games.. so anyone decent in Pippen's place would've allowed the Bulls to win

So MJ didn't need Pippen to win in 89'... He needed anyone else!!.. anyone OTHER than Pippen would've won, so he didn't need Pippen and already didn't have Phil

Heck, lebron gets beat by record amount when his sidekick gets 9 on 40%.. and that's with veteran high-seeds, not rookie low seed like the 89' bulls

Pippen didn't miss the last 2gms in the 89 ECF. He started all 6gms and was 3rd highest in MP. Your lying knows no boundaries

Maybe if MJ didnt decide to go ghost before the opening tip of game 5, they could have went on to win the series.

[3ball]

3balls argument is dumb. Why are we even dignifying it? Hes comparing 2nd year Pippen in 89 to prime James Worthy. Who's saying that 2nd year Pippen is just as good much less better than James Worthy in his prime? No shit

You seriously don't understand what I'm saying?

Pippen averaged 9.7 ppg on 39% in the 89' ECF - that isn't "normal" 2nd option production - surely if the Bulls had normal production from Pippen or someone replacing him, they would've beaten the Pistons that year

you guys are having trouble understanding that the Bulls were trash in 89' - Pippen's 9-point average wasn't a one-off - that was standard for him, and MJ was carrying that team (33/8/8).. if he had a cast where the 2nd option could do better than 9 on 39%, then he would've beaten the Pistons and made them a victim like everyone else (ewing, barkley, etc).. That's always the result when MJ gets any sort of help - 16 on bad efficiency is usually enough sidekick help for MJ to beat anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format.. and it makes sense that the goat wins with anyone passable in a 2-star format

Ultimately, MJ transformed a trash 6 seed and would-be 1st round loser to a top contender in 1 playoff run (1989).. and MJ won with the least (lowest scoring casts ever to win)

[Hey Yo]

MJ avg. 30-5-6.... not 33-8-8 in the 89 ECF

Pippen also shot 40%... not 39%

lie, after lie, after lie

[Hey Yo]

Why does the alleged GOAT need his stats inflated by lies??

[3ball]

MJ avg. 30-5-6.... not 33-8-8 in the 89 ECF

Pippen also shot 40%... not 39%

lie, after lie, after lie

You're quibbling about 1% to avoid the point being made - do you know how weak that is? And how much it shows you can't refute the point being made?

Pippen averaged 9.7 ppg on 39% in the 89' ECF - that isn't "normal" 2nd option production - surely if the Bulls had normal production from Pippen or someone replacing him, they would've beaten the Pistons that year

People forget that the Bulls were trash in 89' - Pippen's 9-point average wasn't a one-off - that was standard for him, and MJ was carrying that team (33/8/8).. if he had a cast where the 2nd option could do better than 9 on 39%, then he would've beaten the Pistons and made them a victim like everyone else (ewing, barkley, etc).. That's always the result when MJ gets any sort of help - 16 on bad efficiency was usually enough sidekick help for MJ to beat anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format.. and it makes sense that the goat wins with anyone passable in a 2-star format

Ultimately, MJ transformed a trash 6 seed and would-be 1st round loser to a top contender in 1 playoff run (1989).. and MJ won with the least (lowest scoring casts ever to win)

[Roundball_Rock]

Why does the alleged GOAT need his stats inflated by lies??

Good question. Lie after lie after lie, deception after deception after deception. MJ's worst enemies are his own stans.

[3ball]

Good question. Lie after lie after lie, deception after deception after deception. MJ's worst enemies are his own stans.

Only lebron stans argue about meaningless tenths of a percent because they can't make a viable goat case for lebron.. so they distract with bullshit

Pippen averaged 9.7 ppg on 39% in the 89' ECF - that isn't "normal" 2nd option production - surely if the Bulls had normal production from Pippen or someone replacing him, they would've beaten the Pistons that year

People forget that the Bulls were trash in 89' - Pippen's 9-point average wasn't a one-off - that was standard for him, and MJ was carrying that team (33/8/8).. if he had a cast where the 2nd option could do better than 9 on 39%, then he would've beaten the Pistons and made them a victim like everyone else (ewing, barkley, etc).. That's always the result when MJ gets any sort of help - 16 on bad efficiency was usually enough sidekick help for MJ to beat anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format.. and it makes sense that the goat wins with anyone in a 2-star format

[insidious301]

Only lebron stans argue about meaningless tenths of a percent because they can't make a viable goat case for lebron.. so they distract with bullshit

Pippen averaged 9.7 ppg on 39% in the 89' ECF - that isn't "normal" 2nd option production - surely if the Bulls had normal production from Pippen or someone replacing him, they would've beaten the Pistons that year

People forget that the Bulls were trash in 89' - Pippen's 9-point average wasn't a one-off - that was standard for him, and MJ was carrying that team (33/8/8).. if he had a cast where the 2nd option could do better than 9 on 39%, then he would've beaten the Pistons and made them a victim like everyone else (ewing, barkley, etc).. That's always the result when MJ gets any sort of help - 16 on bad efficiency was usually enough sidekick help for MJ to beat anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format.. and it makes sense that the goat wins with anyone in a 2-star format

You said Jordan averaged 33-8-8 vs his actual 30-5-6. I don't know where you learned math, but you need to go back to school. That disparity isn't just tenth of a percent. You have a bad habit of lying and throwing around misinformation. Don't debate unless you have command over the facts.

[Roundball_Rock]

You said Jordan averaged 33-8-8 vs his actual 30-5-6. I don't know where you learned math, but you need to go back to school. That disparity isn't just tenth of a percent. You have a bad habit of lying and throwing around misinformation. Don't debate unless you have command over the facts.

It is funny--he lies about objective, easy to find facts. He is shameless, though.

[3ball]

You said Jordan averaged 33-8-8 vs his actual 30-5-6. I don't know where you learned math, but you need to go back to school. That disparity isn't just tenth of a percent. You have a bad habit of lying and throwing around misinformation. Don't debate unless you have command over the facts.

You're lying again to avoid the argument

I said the 89' bulls were trash and showed MJ's regular season averages to prove that - i never said those were his averages against the Pistons - you're now lying and claiming I did to avoid the argument

But the reality is that no one came anywhere near 30 ppg with good efficiency against the Bad Boys.. those are astounding numbers against the goat defense and Jordan Rules

And it's funny because the documentaries show Laimbeer, Rodman, and Isiah saying the main objective was to hurt MJ when he drove... Or like Salley said (while making a chopping motion with his hand) - "put him on the ground"...... Understand that ONLY mj was defended this way throughout a series.. guys could never be defended that way today..

[ImKobe]

MJ avg. 30-5-6.... not 33-8-8 in the 89 ECF

Pippen also shot 40%... not 39%

lie, after lie, after lie

MJ averaged 30/6/7 in the 1989 ECF.

[insidious301]

You're lying again to avoid the argument

I said the 89' bulls were trash and showed MJ's regular season averages to prove that - i never said those were his averages against the Pistons - you're now lying and claiming I did to avoid the argument

But the reality is that no one came anywhere near 30 ppg with good efficiency against the Bad Boys.. those are astounding numbers against the goat defense and Jordan Rules

And it's funny because the documentaries show Laimbeer, Rodman, and Isiah saying the main objective was to hurt MJ when he drove... Or like Salley said (while making a chopping motion with his hand) - "put him on the ground"...... Understand that ONLY mj was defended this way throughout a series.. guys could never be defended that way today..

Why use Pippen's playoff stats, but with Jordan regular-season numbers? Instead of coming across as a fool just admit you were dishonest. It is the only explanation for making that "disparity" claim. Furthermore its not even the biggest carry we've seen. 2009 LeBron's BPM in the playoffs was 18. The next highest player was 1. Delonte West. So we know LeBron did more with less.


It is funny--he lies about objective, easy to find facts. He is shameless, though.

Watching him try to beat around the bush is comical. Being passive aggressive and going on with a blatant lie is weak. Reeks of bad character.

[Roundball_Rock]

He also posts the same 5 threads on a repeat loop. :lol Like the 89' ECF one (where he bitches that MJ couldn't win without Pippen playing at a star level--yet his life goal is saying MJ won by himself :confusedshrug: ), with the usual deception baked in. Watch for the "Worthy" one in the coming days as that should be next on the schedule.

He needs help.

[3ball]

Why use Pippen's playoff stats, but with Jordan regular-season numbers? Instead of coming across as a fool just admit you were dishonest. It is the only explanation for making that "disparity" claim. Furthermore its not even the biggest carry we've seen. 2009 LeBron's BPM in the playoffs was 18. The next highest player was 1. Delonte West. So we know LeBron did more with less.



Watching him try to beat around the bush is comical. Being passive aggressive and going on with a blatant lie is weak. Reeks of bad character.

History shows that MJ carried more...

The 89' Cavs were the #1 SRS team and better than the 09' Magic (#4 SRS)... Jordan defeated the #1 SRS as a big underdog, while lebron lost to #4 SRS as a massive favorite..

(Jordan 40/6/8... Lebron 38/8/8 with no ball movement, aka no chance to beat a good team.. AAU-style stat accumulation/ball-dominance is an inferior skillset)

And you're looking at the overall 09' Playoffs - in the ECF, Lebron got 18% on 38% from Mo - Jordan easily wins with that help vs 89' Pistons, and infact DID win with that in the massive upset of the #1 SRS Cavs

And you're still trying to lie about me.. I said the 89' Bulls were trash and showed MJ's regular season averages to prove that - i never said those were his averages against the Pistons - you're now lying and claiming I did because you're avoiding you don't the argument

Btw, no one came anywhere near 30 ppg with good efficiency against the Bad Boys.. those are astounding numbers against the goat defense

[insidious301]

History shows that MJ carried more...

The 89' Cavs were the #1 SRS team and better than the 09' Magic (#4 SRS)... Jordan defeated the #1 SRS as a big underdog, while lebron lost to #4 SRS as a massive favorite..

(Jordan 40/6/8... Lebron 38/8/8 with no ball movement, aka no chance to beat a good team.. AAU-style stat accumulation/ball-dominance is an inferior skillset)

And you're looking at the overall 09' Playoffs - in the ECF, Lebron got 18% on 38% from Mo - Jordan easily wins with that help vs 89' Pistons, and infact DID win with that in the massive upset of the #1 SRS Cavs

And you're still trying to lie about me.. I said the 89' Bulls were trash and showed MJ's regular season averages to prove that - i never said those were his averages against the Pistons - you're now lying and claiming I did because you're avoiding you don't the argument

Btw, no one came anywhere near 30 ppg with good efficiency against the Bad Boys.. those are astounding numbers against the goat defense

Not in the playoffs it doesn't. Your oriignal argument was to use playoff stats, but when expanding the sample it is clear Playoff LeBron did more heavy-lifting. The advanced box numbers, adjusted for possession, bear that out. No point in regular-season vs playoff stats if you're not doing that for both players. Both of us know that isn't what you did though. You got caught fibbing. I don't think of you any less, but that's what happened here. What also happened was 2009 LeBron carrying more with less than Jordan ever did.

[3ball]

Not in the playoffs it doesn't. Your oriignal argument was to use playoff stats, but when expanding the sample it is clear Playoff LeBron did more heavy-lifting. The advanced box numbers, adjusted for possession, bear that out. No point in regular-season vs playoff stats if you're not doing that for both players. Both of us know that isn't what you did though. You got caught fibbing. I don't think of you any less, but that's what happened here. What also happened was 2009 LeBron carrying more with less than Jordan ever did.
No you simply have poor reading comp, so you didn't read it properly, and then threw a mini-tantrum when corrected

And lebron didn't carry the most in 09' because he lost

Who cares if someone achieved the highest PER for 12 games while losing?.. it's a blip on the radar.. like kobe's 81

And mj will always have the best carry-job stats because he scores the biggest portion of his team's points, than anyone, including 09' lebron, while also using the most possessions


And MJ has the best stats while winning... Finally, if PER, BPM, WS/48, and VORP are the stats for carry-jobs, then MJ carries the most because he's #1 all-time on all of them

[insidious301]

No you simply have poor reading comp, so you didn't read it properly, and then threw a mini-tantrum when corrected

And lebron didn't carry the most in 09' because he lost

Everyone can read the posts for themselves. You used incorrect numbers and then tried to pass them off as regular-season ones. It is what it is. Lying about it does nothing but strengthen our argument tbh. Speaking of which, you were using a carry argument for a playoff run Jordan lost. That would mean the point stands. LeBron in fact did carry more than Jordan ever had. Clipped to "losing" and that makes it even clearer.

[3ball]

Everyone can read the posts for themselves. You used incorrect numbers and then tried to pass them off as regular-season ones. It is what it is. Lying about it does nothing but strengthen our argument tbh. Speaking of which you were using a carry argument for a playoff run MJ lost. That would mean the point stands. LeBron in fact did carry more than Jordan ever did. Clipped to "losing" and that makes it even clearer.

The stats were correct and everyone can see.. . I said the 89' Bulls were trash and showed MJ's regular season averages to prove that - i never said those were his averages against the Pistons - I'll just keep re-posting this because it's the obvious truth.

And who cares if someone achieved the highest PER for 12 games while losing?.. it's a blip on the radar.. like kobe's 81

And mj will always have the best carry-job stats because he scores a bigger portion of his team's points than anyone, including 09' Lebron, while also using the most possessions and having the biggest margins over his casts... And MJ has the best stats while winning...

Finally, if PER, BPM, WS/48, and VORP are the stats for carry-jobs, then MJ carries the most because he's #1 all-time on all of them... :confusedshrug:

[insidious301]

The stats were correct - everyone can see that I said the 89' Bulls were trash and showed MJ's regular season averages to prove that - i never said those were his averages against the Pistons - I'll just keep re-posting this because it's the obvious truth.

/I]... :confusedshrug:

Why use regular-season numbers vs one series. A small sampled series that Jordan and Pippen lost in? That wouldn't make sense so the obvious answer is you were caught lying. You have a habit of doing it so it isn't like thats beneath you or anything. But even if you just went by one series, LeBron would still win the debate. Higher carrying series along with an overall playoff run in 2009. LeBron's BPM was at a whopping 18 compared to West's 1. You will not find a bigger disparity.

Make sure you come with a better argument next time. This one is lopsided in LeBron's favor.

[3ball]

Why use regular-season numbers vs one series. A small sampled series that Jordan and Pippen lost in? That wouldn't make sense so the obvious answer is you were caught lying. You have a habit of doing it so it isn't like thats beneath you or anything. But even if you just went by one series, LeBron would still win the argument. Higher carrying series along with an overall playoff run in 2009. LeBron's BPM was 19 compared to West's 1. You will not find a bigger disparity. Make sure you come with a better argument next time. This one is lopsided in LeBron's favor.

I said the 89' Bulls were trash and showed MJ's regular season averages to prove that - i never said those were his averages against the Pistons

And who cares if lebron has the biggest disparity in 1 category if Jordan has the other categories?... and for 12 games?.. who cares!!... I could see your argument if he had the goat disparity for a career (like MJ's scoring), or the goat BPM period... But he doesn't have that.. only MJ does

Heck, lebron lost with 18 on 38% from Mo.... :facepalm:... MJ always won with that from his sidekick

The only exceptions are the baseball year where MJ lost with 19 on 40% from Pippen (but Shaq > Dwight)... And his injury year in 86'...

Otherwise, the best sidekick stats that MJ lost with was 10 on 40% from Pippen in 88' and 89', while lebron lost with 29 from Kyrie and 27 from Wade.. and 18 from Mo as a massive favorite.. mj never lost as favorite