Losing in playoffs with a VORP leader teammate should disqualify GOAT contention

[HBK_Kliq_2]

All three of these players had a teammate leading playoffs in VORP and still failed to win a championship.

2004 - Shaq
2011 - LeBron
1983 - Kareem

That's GOAT level help from your co star and there's no excuses for not winning a title. Automatic disqualify for GOAT contention.

[Shooter]

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FIRST

[HBK_Kliq_2]

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FIRST

When you're looking at Lebron's bald head in ten years and reflecting on his career of 3 rings. You can always look back at 2011 when he failed to win a ring with the VORP leader.

[dankok8]

Nothing disqualifies him but he has no excuses barring major injuries.

[Gray GOAT]

Wait, so Kawhi lost with the player with the 3rd highest VORP of all time?

[MrFonzworth]

Wait, so Kawhi lost with the player with the 3rd highest VORP of all time?

Shut. It. Down.

[insidious301]

Wait, so Kawhi lost with the player with the 3rd highest VORP of all time?

Another day and thread HBK buries himself. And with that, Peak Pippen has the same VORP as 2017 Kawhi.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wait, so Kawhi lost with the player with the 3rd highest VORP of all time?

When he was 59 years old, sure.

[Gray GOAT]

When he was 59 years old, sure.

You mean the guy who put up 30/17 and 24/12 in two close out games while Kawhi was missing clutch free throws in game 6 that would have sealed the game. What about him?

[insidious301]

When he was 59 years old, sure.

Duncan had the highest Playoff VORP on that team.

[Roundball_Rock]

The three cases are all different.

Kareem: 36 years old, three years removed from his prime, playing against a top 15 AT player at his peak. MJ was retired at 35, Wilt retired at 36, Russell done at 34. Are we going to penalize KAJ for lasting much longer than these players?
Shaq: still in his prime but a declining player who was the #2 player on the 04' team.
LeBron: squarely in the middle of his prime.

It is a legit black mark against LeBron, as is everything about the 11' finals, but it is a stretch to blame Kareem and Shaq as a second option isn't the same as LeBron's case either.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The three cases are all different.

Kareem: 36 years old, three years removed from his prime, playing against a top 15 AT player at his peak. MJ was retired at 35, Wilt retired at 36, Russell done at 34. Are we going to penalize KAJ for lasting much longer than these players?
Shaq: still in his prime but a declining player who was the #2 player on the 04' team.
LeBron: squarely in the middle of his prime.

It is a legit black mark against LeBron, as is everything about the 11' finals, but it is a stretch to blame Kareem and Shaq as a second option isn't the same as LeBron's case either.

Kareem still had 3 seasons after that when he was top 5 in MVP voting. So it would be like Anthony Davis leading all playoffs in VORP this year and LeBron still losing.

As far as Shaq, he had a teammate leading playoffs in VORP and still lost to a team with zero superstars in Pistons.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem still had 3 seasons after that when he was top 5 in MVP voting. So it would be like Anthony Davis leading all playoffs in VORP this year and LeBron still losing.

Yeah, that is a good parallel. I don't think we can turn longevity--a plus--into a minus. It is a good thing Kareem, LeBron were great long. Why penalize them for that in favor of players who were retired at that same age or washed up? KAJ turned 36 late in the season so let's compare his age 35 seasons to other centers.

KAJ at 35: 22/8/3, 2nd team all-NBA, 10th in MVP
Wilt at 35: 15/19/4, 2nd team all-NBA, 3rd in MVP
Russel at 35: 0/0/0--retired
Hakeem at 35: 16/10/3
Shaq at 35: 14/9/2
Moses at 35: 11/8/1
Robinson at 35: 14/9/2


As far as Shaq, he had a teammate leading playoffs in VORP and still lost to a team with zero superstars in Pistons.


True but the context is 1) he was the second best player on the team (as the VORP leader being Kobe suggests) 2) he played well in the finals--Kobe choked.

LeBron is the only one who you can really use it against IMO, given the context of Shaq and especially KAJ.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

There is no way you can blame Shaq over Kobe for the 04 Finals loss. Kobe was awful and Shaq was great in that series.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah, that is a good parallel. I don't think we can turn longevity--a plus--into a minus. It is a good thing Kareem, LeBron were great long. Why penalize them for that in favor of players who were retired at that same age or washed up? KAJ turned 36 late in the season so let's compare his age 35 seasons to other centers.

KAJ at 35: 22/8/3, 2nd team all-NBA, 10th in MVP
Wilt at 35: 15/19/4, 2nd team all-NBA, 3rd in MVP
Russel at 35: 0/0/0--retired
Hakeem at 35: 16/10/3
Shaq at 35: 14/9/2
Moses at 35: 11/8/1
Robinson at 35: 14/9/2



True but the context is 1) he was the second best player on the team (as the VORP leader being Kobe suggests) 2) he played well in the finals--Kobe choked.

LeBron is the only one who you can really use it against IMO, given the context of Shaq and especially KAJ.

If Kareem/LeBron are still MVP candidates, we have to treat them that way. So in that sense, their failures shouldn't be excused. If they were just putting up average stats or not top 5 MVP guys, you can excuse it. But that isn't the case.

You don't think LeBron would be criticized this year if Lakers were eliminated and Anthony Davis led the entire playoffs in VORP? Its similar to Kareem in 1983.