Why is Dirk Nowitzki so overrated?

[Drygon]

People still hold on to his one and only ring he won almost a decade ago..

- Speaking of a decade, since Dirk’s last season he hasn’t won a playoff series in close to 10 years (Last one was in 2011)

- In 2007 as a 1 seed, lost In 6 games to an 8th seed in his prime & averaged 19 ppg on 21% from three with 51% TS

- In 2010 as a 2 seed, lost again in 6 games to a 7th seed in the first round

- As a 7 footer never averaged 10 rebounds in 21 career seasons

Why is Dirk so worshipped? Is it because of that 1 ring against the Big 3 Heat?

[Lebron23]

People still hold on to his one and only ring he won almost a decade ago..

- Speaking of a decade, since Dirk’s last season he hasn’t won a playoff series in close to 10 years (Last one was in 2011)

- In 2007 as a 1 seed, lost In 6 games to an 8th seed in his prime & averaged 19 ppg on 21% from three with 51% TS

- In 2010 as a 2 seed, lost again in 6 games to a 7th seed in the first round

- As a 7 footer never averaged 10 rebounds in 21 career seasons

Why is Dirk so worshipped? Is it because of that 1 ring against the Big 3 Heat?

Cause he was regarded as the greatest european player of all time. Luka is going to surpass him in the next 8 years. Must admit he was an inefficient scorer in the NBA Finals. And a terrible defender.

[Norcaliblunt]

Lebron makes other players better. Dirk, Kawhi, Iguodala are all great examples.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

You mostly answered your own question. He was the star who took down the most hated team ever. Maybe some younger people on here don't realize how much hatred there was for the 2011 Heat. It was off the chain. I was at a bar in Atlanta during the Finals and the whole bar was going crazy cheering for Dallas. It was truly Miami vs the world and Dirk delivered for "team world." Had Miami won that series, Dirk would go down as another star who couldn't win the big one. It would be brought up constantly similar to Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, etc. . .

I will say his consistency and being one of the few guys to ever score over 30,000 points is in his favor. Hard to argue he isn't great, albeit a little overrated by some.

[Shooter]

Top 16 all time playoff scorer

MVP
Finals MVP

Not so bad

He has excellence in spurts AND extended excellence (meaning he is not a one hit wonder like many players)

https://i.postimg.cc/SQCx8FPp/Top16playoff-scorer.png

[Lion's pride]

People still hold on to his one and only ring he won almost a decade ago..

- Speaking of a decade, since Dirk’s last season he hasn’t won a playoff series in close to 10 years (Last one was in 2011)

- In 2007 as a 1 seed, lost In 6 games to an 8th seed in his prime & averaged 19 ppg on 21% from three with 51% TS

- In 2010 as a 2 seed, lost again in 6 games to a 7th seed in the first round

- As a 7 footer never averaged 10 rebounds in 21 career seasons

Why is Dirk so worshipped? Is it because of that 1 ring against the Big 3 Heat?

there is one big point missed.. Dirk, maybe more than anyone, is responsible for changing the way a 7fter can play the game...impact to changing the game, very few have done.. shooting 3s and facing up etc..

Now whether that is good for the NBA or not is debatable..

[Round Mound]

Both Barkley and K. Malone where more dominant than Dirk but they are seen as loosers because they didn't win the ring. As Wilt mentioned a while back regarding his losses to Bil Russell's Celtics "If i was a looser...then everybody else was a looser. I was in big company as a looser". Rings don't define a players greatness. Its a team sport. Watch the level of play of each player to determine how good he was or is.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Dirk's 2011 was great but that's the only great run he has I think. 2006 he owned Duncan but i can't consider it great because he couldn't even lead his team to a 99 offensive rating in the finals Hahahha and his greatness is based on being an offensive anchor. Dirk's defense was exposed by don Nelson in 2007 allowing a 114 offensive rating when he was on the court.

Dirk's 2011 run is what his legacy depends on. I don't think its a 1st tier run but I still think it's better then any run from Harden, Nash, Curry, Durant, Kobe. So if you take 2011 away, Dirk becomes overrated.

[Stephonit]

Only reason to think Dirk is overrated is if you think his contemporaries were weak.

If you think Wade, Kobe, Duncan, Nash, Garnett, and LeBron are weak sauce then yes Dirk's overrated.

[ArbitraryWater]

People still hold on to his one and only ring he won almost a decade ago..

- Speaking of a decade, since Dirk’s last season he hasn’t won a playoff series in close to 10 years (Last one was in 2011)

- In 2007 as a 1 seed, lost In 6 games to an 8th seed in his prime & averaged 19 ppg on 21% from three with 51% TS

- In 2010 as a 2 seed, lost again in 6 games to a 7th seed in the first round

- As a 7 footer never averaged 10 rebounds in 21 career seasons

Why is Dirk so worshipped? Is it because of that 1 ring against the Big 3 Heat?


Dafuq?

Why would time moving forward diminish something? Dumbass

[Axe]

Dirk and the mavs lost in the 2007 playoffs west first-round because don nelson, their former coach, taught his warriors team how to feast on him.

A big testament to this is that the mavs have never won a single game against the dubs during the regular season, going 0-3 in all of their meetings.

[coin24]

Lebron makes other players better. Dirk, Kawhi, Iguodala are all great examples.

The GOAT finals fmvp deliverer:cheers:

Always finds a way to lose

[Phoenix]

I've never seen Dirk as being worshipped or overrated. He seems to be generally viewed as a top 20ish level player and considerations are made not only for the 'failures' you mention but his successes:

12 time all-NBA
07 MVP
25/10 playoff averages over 145 games
30k career point club
2011 champion/finals MVP

The list of players who have a better body of work than that is very, very small.

Outside of him averaging 10 rebounds for his playoff career, he had two 9.9rpg seasons and a 9.7. Ok, 'technically' not 10 if you don't just round off like most would in that situation. Also has a 9.2 and 9.0 season, 8.9, 8.6, 8.4...... and then there's the obvious point that Dirk was a jumpshooter and not a prototypical PF banging down low which limited especially his offensive rebounding opportunities relative to what guys like Duncan/Garnett/Webber did in their heyday.

Finally, IMHO there's something intangibly respectable about a guy who anchored a franchise for 20 years, through various coaches, teammates, and peak/valley periods for how good or bad the team was in a given period. Never complained, never asked for 'moar halp' ( that I'm aware of), never cheated the game. I wouldn't say that gets bonus 'brownie' points as far as rankings but it is a bullet point for why he seems to garner wide respect.

[Bronbron23]

People still hold on to his one and only ring he won almost a decade ago..

- Speaking of a decade, since Dirk’s last season he hasn’t won a playoff series in close to 10 years (Last one was in 2011)

- In 2007 as a 1 seed, lost In 6 games to an 8th seed in his prime & averaged 19 ppg on 21% from three with 51% TS

- In 2010 as a 2 seed, lost again in 6 games to a 7th seed in the first round

- As a 7 footer never averaged 10 rebounds in 21 career seasons

Why is Dirk so worshipped? Is it because of that 1 ring against the Big 3 Heat?

Because lebron is a great player that had a great team and dirk with no other all stars beat him. Imagine how much more respect barkley or clyde would be if they beat mj and the bulls.

[tpols]

He's underrated if anything.

[tpols]

Dirk's 2011 was great but that's the only great run he has I think. 2006 he owned Duncan but i can't consider it great because he couldn't even lead his team to a 99 offensive rating in the finals Hahahha and his greatness is based on being an offensive anchor. Dirk's defense was exposed by don Nelson in 2007 allowing a 114 offensive rating when he was on the court.

Dirk's 2011 run is what his legacy depends on. I don't think its a 1st tier run but I still think it's better then any run from Harden, Nash, Curry, Durant, Kobe. So if you take 2011 away, Dirk becomes overrated.

In 2006 he led his team past the super stacked suns and spurs to the Finals averaging 27/12/3 on a blistering 124 ORTG. Best teammate being Jason Terry. I dont think even Lebron or Kobe couldve led those teams to 67 wins and past Duncan Manu Nash Marion like Dirk did. He has played in 145 playoff games so it wasnt just "one run".. if anything you're cherrypicking the one bad run which could be done for any player Lebron 2011, Kobe 2004, magic 1984 etc. Dirk also has better playoff numbers efficiencies and splits than Kawhi Leonard. It's clear you have little background on him.

[AussieSteve]

Career wise, Dirk is the 2nd or 3rd best PF ever. With only TD clearly ahead of him.

Peak wise he is 3rd or 4th all time, wirh only TD and Barkely clearly ahead of him.

Do you disagree OP?

[Roundball_Rock]

ESPN had him 19th, Backpicks 18th, Slam 27th. Simmons has him top 20 I believe (he hasn't updated his list but he did a full podcast on him).

Top 20 sounds about right. What is overrated about that? No one is saying he is top 10 or close to it.

[r0drig0lac]

Why is Dirk so worshipped? Is it because of that 1 ring against the Big 3 Heat?

yep

[jalbert009]

Are people forgetting that the 2011 championship run his team were the ultimate underdogs. His first round opponent were a talented Blazers Team with Aldridge at his peak. Then the mavs sweep kobe and the Lakers who were defending champs and looking to 3 peat. Then in WCF took out OKC Featuring Durant, Westbrook and Harden. Then in the Finals the Heat Big 3. It was probably the greatest playoff run ive seen and Dirk had no other all stars or all NBA team mates in this run. Yes there were past all stars like Kidd and Marion but they were well past their primes.
And then many people fail to remember that Caron Butler who was expected to be the #2 or #3 option on offence was Injured most of the regular season and post season.

[tontoz]

OP must not have looked at Dirk's career numbers.

Also you could argue that he started the trend of stretch bigs. He won the 3pt contest as a 7 footer. His teams routinely benefited from the spacing he created.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

In 2006 he led his team past the super stacked suns and spurs to the Finals averaging 27/12/3 on a blistering 124 ORTG. Best teammate being Jason Terry. I dont think even Lebron or Kobe couldve led those teams to 67 wins and past Duncan Manu Nash Marion like Dirk did. He has played in 145 playoff games so it wasnt just "one run".. if anything you're cherrypicking the one bad run which could be done for any player Lebron 2011, Kobe 2004, magic 1984 etc. Dirk also has better playoff numbers efficiencies and splits than Kawhi Leonard. It's clear you have little background on him.

Kawhi's 2019 playoffs was better then 2011 Dirk, go check the numbers.

As far as 2006, Dirk choked hard in the finals and lost 4 straight like Giannis did in 2019. On top of that, he couldn't even lead mavs to a 100 offensive rating in finals. Mavs offense rating was usually 110+ and have a drop like that in finals is embarrassing. That's my knock on Dirk in 2006. Regarding his teammates, Josh Howard was a very good defensive player who can drop 18+ points and Jason Terry was a good 2nd or 3rd option scorer. So he beat Nash suns? Who cares everybody else did too, they played no defense.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He’s a great scorer and hugely influential prototype for the modern big man. But yes, as an all around player? Insanely overrated.

There was series vs the Suns where little guy and friend Steve Nash outplayed him. Lost to an 8th seed with a 67 win team and roster.

Collapsed with near victory in 2006 Finals, getting out played by D-Wade.

And then even got out played by Dwayne again in the 2011 Finals he won. Which he shouldn’t have if LeBron didn’t get locked up by old Kidd, Marion and JJ Barea.

He was never better than KG, or KD, or Duncan.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Josh Howard was a good sidekick during 2006/07. Look at the 2006 playoffs best 2 man lineups:

1. Josh/Dirk
2. Josh/Stackhouse
3. Josh/Terry

It's basically whoever plays with Josh Howard.

And in 2007 playoffs when Dirk was eliminated in 1st round? Josh averaged 21 points 10 rebounds and had a higher BPM then Dirk. After that, Josh Howard started smoking pot and getting injured I guess. That 2 year stretch though he was a good robin.

So Dirk had help those years, he just choked. That's why he got the choking label until 2011.

[Gruppenführer]

He's underrated if anything.

This.

Someone with an unstoppable shot as his will be talked about for years to come. And there was no player better than Dirk in the two years he went to the Finals.

[tpols]

Josh Howard is a historical nobody compared to other 2nd options. Dirk didn't get to play with tim duncan, manu, tony parker, paul george, siakam, marc gasol, ibaka, etc. He carried mediocre help as far as anybody ever has and didn't need to team hop to already established playoff teams year after year. They also would've won the ring in 2006 if the league didnt send Wade on a record setting 100 FT march. The Mavs were whooping the Heat's ass before the refs decided to make it a FT shooting contest. And 2011 was the most epic Cinderella run of all time.

Give Dirk Kobe or Lebron's help... prime Shaq, Wade, Pau, AD, Kyrie, etc. and his 1-2 rings become 4-5 easy.

[NBAGOAT]

Josh Howard is a historical nobody compared to other 2nd options. Dirk didn't get to play with tim duncan, manu, tony parker, paul george, siakam, marc gasol, ibaka, etc. He carried mediocre help as far as anybody ever has and didn't need to team hop to already established playoff teams year after year. They also would've won the ring in 2006 if the league didnt send Wade on a record setting 100 FT march. The Mavs were whooping the Heat's ass before the refs decided to make it a FT shooting contest. And 2011 was the most epic Cinderella run of all time.

Give Dirk Kobe or Lebron's help... prime Shaq, Wade, Pau, AD, Kyrie, etc. and his 1-2 rings become 4-5 easy.

dirk's situation was never as bad as kg but its' crazy how one team never gave him even good contender help besides 01-04 with nash/finley which is pre prime dirk.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Josh Howard is a historical nobody compared to other 2nd options. Dirk didn't get to play with tim duncan, manu, tony parker, paul george, siakam, marc gasol, ibaka, etc. He carried mediocre help as far as anybody ever has and didn't need to team hop to already established playoff teams year after year. They also would've won the ring in 2006 if the league didnt send Wade on a record setting 100 FT march. The Mavs were whooping the Heat's ass before the refs decided to make it a FT shooting contest. And 2011 was the most epic Cinderella run of all time.

Give Dirk Kobe or Lebron's help... prime Shaq, Wade, Pau, AD, Kyrie, etc. and his 1-2 rings become 4-5 easy.

Give any superstar a robin averaging 22/10 with a 6 BPM and I doubt he gets eliminated in 1st round like 2007 Dirk did.

Josh Howard was also the defensive anchor the entire 2006 playoffs, what did Dirk do in finals? He missed late game freethrows, lost 4 straight after being up 2-0 and generally played like shit. What does Wade freethrows have to do with Mavs offense dropping to a 99 offensive rating?

2011 he was great I agree but 2006/07 was unclutch in finals or just flat out bad in 1st round

[HBK_Kliq_2]

dirk's situation was never as bad as kg but its' crazy how one team never gave him even good contender help besides 01-04 with nash/finley which is pre prime dirk.

2006 finals

Dirk: 22.8PPG on 53% TS
Terry: 22.0PPG on 55% TS

Sounds like enough help to me? Couldn't even out play Jason Terry in the finals hahahha any superstar would get killed for that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Dirk played with a guy who won back-to-back MVP's as soon as he left Dallas. Let's not act like Dirk played with scrubs.

Dirk is top 20 AT but Kawhi has top 10 potential.

[3ball]

Same reason lebron is - a lucky series

[NBAGOAT]

2006 finals

Dirk: 22.8PPG on 53% TS
Terry: 22.0PPG on 55% TS

Sounds like enough help to me? Couldn't even out play Jason Terry in the finals hahahha any superstar would get killed for that.

a superstar has put up less than 22ppg in a series so no they shouldnt get killed. I didnt say bad but terry/howard just isnt a good core for a top contender

[tpols]

Nash sounds nice until you realize you're playing in a conference with Shaq Kobe and a loaded Kings squad that may be the best team to never win a title. And besides those Mavs teams did go far, even making the WCF's one year where Dirk got knocked out with injury. And of course, Nash wasn't the same before the rule changes as he was after. The hands off rules vs the grind it out late 90s early 00s made for a huge expansion of his impact.

It's all immaterial though given the fact that the teams prime Dirk did lead to the Finals and championship only had a 19 ppg Jason Terry and a 16 ppg Josh Howard as the only form of signifigant help. It's very rare you'll ever see even the brightest of stars win with such mediocre historical help, but Dirk could do it because his high volume hyper efficient individual play and revolutionary spacing unlocked GOAT half court playoff offenses. In addition to that he was a stone cold assassin in crunchtime.

It is what it is.

[ArbitraryWater]

Nash sounds nice until you realize you're playing in a conference with Shaq Kobe and a loaded Kings squad that may be the best team to never win a title. And besides those Mavs teams did go far, even making the WCF's one year where Dirk got knocked out with injury. And of course, Nash wasn't the same before the rule changes as he was after. The hands off rules vs the grind it out late 90s early 00s made for a huge expansion of his impact.

It's all immaterial though given the fact that the teams prime Dirk did lead to the Finals and championship only had a 19 ppg Jason Terry and a 16 ppg Josh Howard as the only form of signifigant help. It's very rare you'll ever see even the brightest of stars win with such mediocre historical help, but Dirk could do it because his high volume hyper efficient individual play and revolutionary spacing unlocked GOAT half court playoff offenses. In addition to that he was a stone cold assassin in crunchtime.

It is what it is.

gee i dont see you applying that logic for lebron's finals or current west

[tpols]

gee i dont see you applying that logic for lebron's finals or current west

what? Lebron played in the worst conferences of all time with kyrie and wade and then got an MVP talent in AD when he went West.

lmao.

Imagine this Laker team with Jason Terry instead of Anthony Davis and Lebron doing anything with them.

He's the anti-Dirk. And got sonned by him to boot.

[NBAGOAT]

Nash sounds nice until you realize you're playing in a conference with Shaq Kobe and a loaded Kings squad that may be the best team to never win a title. And besides those Mavs teams did go far, even making the WCF's one year where Dirk got knocked out with injury. And of course, Nash wasn't the same before the rule changes as he was after. The hands off rules vs the grind it out late 90s early 00s made for a huge expansion of his impact.

It's all immaterial though given the fact that the teams prime Dirk did lead to the Finals and championship only had a 19 ppg Jason Terry and a 16 ppg Josh Howard as the only form of signifigant help. It's very rare you'll ever see even the brightest of stars win with such mediocre historical help, but Dirk could do it because his high volume hyper efficient individual play and revolutionary spacing unlocked GOAT half court playoff offenses. In addition to that he was a stone cold assassin in crunchtime.

It is what it is.

well nash also got unlocked for playing in a better offense with dantoni(though nelsons was good for guards) and sorting out his health issues in phx but dallas nash wasnt prime nash. dirk even carried nicely into his mid 30s. ellis/chandler/parsons was on it's way to 55 wins and a top 3 offense in the league before rondo ruined things

[Roundball_Rock]

It's all immaterial though given the fact that the teams prime Dirk did lead to the Finals and championship only had a 19 ppg Jason Terry and a 16 ppg Josh Howard as the only form of signifigant help. It's very rare you'll ever see even the brightest of stars win with such mediocre historical help

They were 19 and 17 in the PO. How does that compare to #2/#3 scorers in the playoffs on other 50+ teams in the same year?

DAL: Terry 19, Howard 17 (36)
SAS: Parker 21, Ginobili 18 (39)
CLE: Hughes 11, Z 10 (21)
MIA: Shaq 18, Walker 13 (31)
DET: Billups 18, Prince 16 (34)
PHX: Marion 20, Diaw 19 (39)

What is the problem here? This isn't the picture of second/third scorer poverty when we bring, you know, context...

[tpols]

You just proved the point... Dirk's help produced worse than 2/3 of his gauntlet opponents, and of course everybody knows mid 2000's Shaq was better than Jason Terry or Josh Howard.

[ArbitraryWater]

what? Lebron played in the worst conferences of all time with kyrie and wade and then got an MVP talent in AD when he went West.

lmao.

Imagine this Laker team with Jason Terry instead of Anthony Davis and Lebron doing anything with them.

He's the anti-Dirk. And got sonned by him to boot.

can u read dawg?

you applied relative stackedness, and lebron's teams werent stacked for the finals stage or current west stage they face

[Roundball_Rock]

can u read dawg?

you applied relative stackedness, and lebron's teams werent stacked for the finals stage or current west stage they face

He can--but it isn't convenient for his agenda here. :lol

[tpols]

can u read dawg?

you applied relative stackedness, and lebron's teams werent stacked for the finals stage or current west stage they face

His teams were stacked for the Finals stage. He had the big 3 Heat against cinderella underdog mavs, old spurs, and baby thunder. Then had kyrie and love who when he joined them were the title favorites (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2241463-nba-championship-odds-2014-15-every-teams-chances-of-winning-the-nba-title) for the upcoming year in 2015. Goes west, misses the playoffs, gets AD and has a 1 seed. :lol

He just underachieved with the massive amount of help he has had.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You just proved the point... Dirk's help produced worse than 2/3 of his gauntlet opponents, and of course everybody knows mid 2000's Shaq was better than Jason Terry or Josh Howard.

2006 finals - Losing to a team with a 101 offensive rating and had Antoine Walker as its 3rd best player hahaha wow so stacked, he just couldn't overcome that huh?

The main reason for Dirk's greatness is his offense and he couldn't even outplay Jason Terry on offense.

[ArbitraryWater]

His teams were stacked for the Finals stage. He had the big 3 Heat against cinderella underdog mavs, old spurs, and baby thunder. Then had kyrie and love who when he joined them were the title favorites (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2241463-nba-championship-odds-2014-15-every-teams-chances-of-winning-the-nba-title) for the upcoming year in 2015. Goes west, misses the playoffs, gets AD and has a 1 seed. :lol

He just underachieved with the massive amount of help he has had.

oh the topic is lebron, so lets be back to generalizing..

lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Dallas wasn't some little underdog. They won 50+ for a full decade from 01'-11', 55+ six times, and 60+ three times during that span. In 11' they were 57-25--same as the Lakers and only one game behind the Heat. People talk about them like they were a 46 win team. :lol

[NBAGOAT]

Dallas wasn't some little underdog. They won 50+ for a full decade from 01'-11', 55+ six times, and 60+ three times during that span. In 11' they were 57-25--same as the Lakers and only one game behind the Heat. People talk about them like they were a 46 win team. :lol

yes but some people think that's because of dirk's impact. rapm bears our that he was as good anyone from 05-07.

[Horatio33]

Both Barkley and K. Malone where more dominant than Dirk but they are seen as loosers because they didn't win the ring. As Wilt mentioned a while back regarding his losses to Bil Russell's Celtics "If i was a looser...then everybody else was a looser. I was in big company as a looser". Rings don't define a players greatness. Its a team sport. Watch the level of play of each player to determine how good he was or is.

Keep telling yourself that, mate.

[tpols]

The 2011 Mavericks going into the season were underdog vegas odds favorites to the

Lakers
Heat
Nuggets
Thunder
Magic
Spurs
Celtics
Bulls

and the kicker... the portland trailblazers... their first round opponent.

Yup... nothing to see here folks.

[tpols]

Link (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/492927-nba-2010-2011-season-odds-and-predictions-for-every-nba-team)

[HylianNightmare]

He spanked up on lestackingthedeck

[DMAVS41]

I think one could make the argument Dirk is a bit over-rated (depending on where they are rating him), but some of the takes in this thread are terrible.

[DMAVS41]

Dallas wasn't some little underdog. They won 50+ for a full decade from 01'-11', 55+ six times, and 60+ three times during that span. In 11' they were 57-25--same as the Lakers and only one game behind the Heat. People talk about them like they were a 46 win team. :lol

Like this, for example.

Now go look at how all those teams performed without Dirk on the floor. Maybe one of the best players ever that makes the game easier for his teammates had something to do with being one of 4 franchises in NBA history to win over 50 games in 10 straight seasons.

Reminds me of the people that categorize the 09 Cavs as a 66 win team...trying to get people to forget that same team relied on Mo Williams to be the 2nd best player. The 18 Warriors only won 58 games...I guess they had a worse shot at the title than the 06 Mavs...:facepalm

[baudkarma]

Dirk made people rethink the role of tall players in the NBA. He was the prototype stretch 4. He showed that a 7 footer could be an effective player without spending all of his time down in the paint with his back to the basket.

The 2011 championship run was one of the most epic underdog achievements in NBA history. Yeah, the Mavs beat that Heat team that everybody hated in the finals. More impressive in my book is sweeping the Lakers in the WCF when nobody gave them a chance. Here's the ESPN preview/review page for that series:

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-lakers

14 ESPN experts predicted the outcome of the series, and all 14 of them picked the Lakers to win it. But the Mavs didn't just get the upset, they swept the series and humiliated the Lakers. And the refs weren't doing the Mavs any favors, the NBA desperately wanted a Kobe-Lebron finals matchup.

Lastly, it probably doesn't hurt Dirks popularity among a certain segment of NBA fans that he's a pasty white guy. I'm saying this as a fellow pasty white guy.

[Roundball_Rock]

Like this, for example.

Now go look at how all those teams performed without Dirk on the floor. Maybe one of the best players ever that makes the game easier for his teammates had something to do with being one of 4 franchises in NBA history to win over 50 games in 10 straight seasons.

Reminds me of the people that categorize the 09 Cavs as a 66 win team...trying to get people to forget that same team relied on Mo Williams to be the 2nd best player. The 18 Warriors only won 58 games...I guess they had a worse shot at the title than the 06 Mavs...:facepalm

Separate question. My point simply was Dallas was a perennial contender. Do you disagree? A little underdog would be something like the Pacers making a deep run this year, not a 57 win team doing it.

If the Bucks don't win the title this year, does that erase that as of August 17, 2020 they were considered legit contenders going into the playoffs? So was Cleveland--that 09' team made the ECF.

People act like only the champ was a good team in a given year and the other 29 teams were trash. :oldlol:

Yeah, having a top 20 all-time player helped them be a successful team. Who disagrees? You are getting worked up about straw men.

[knicksman]

dirk achieved the highest feat in basketball which is winning without superteams. But even if we say that lebrons rings are the same value as dirks ring. Then lets compare their other achievements before lebron formed superteams. Dirk made it to the finals same with lebron and dirk won 67 compared to lebrons 66 in a tougher conference. If anything, its lebron whos overrated.

[DMAVS41]

Separate question. My point simply was Dallas was a perennial contender. Do you disagree? A little underdog would be something like the Pacers making a deep run this year, not a 57 win team doing it.

If the Bucks don't win the title this year, does that erase that as of August 17, 2020 they were considered legit contenders going into the playoffs? So was Cleveland--that 09' team made the ECF.

People act like only the champ was a good team in a given year and the other 29 teams were trash. :oldlol:

Yeah, having a top 20 all-time player helped them be a successful team. Who disagrees? You are getting worked up about straw men.

Yes, I disagree.

I don't see how a team like the Mavericks should be treated like Shaq/Kobe, 02 Kings even, Duncan Spurs, Big 3 Celtics, Kobe/Pau...etc. I think the Mavericks were clearly on a level below those types of teams in terms of talent / team construction...and then if you factor in things like Dirk getting hurt in the 03 WCF and Nash's injuries...you just don't get a team that should have been expected to win more than 1 title in that span unless you replaced Dirk with a significantly better player.

Many all-time great players in place of Dirk playing that competition with his help come away with 0 titles imo.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, I disagree.

I don't see how a team like the Mavericks should be treated like Shaq/Kobe, 02 Kings even, Duncan Spurs, Big 3 Celtics, Kobe/Pau...etc. I think the Mavericks were clearly on a level below those types of teams in terms of talent / team construction...and then if you factor in things like Dirk getting hurt in the 03 WCF and Nash's injuries...you just don't get a team that should have been expected to win more than 1 title in that span unless you replaced Dirk with a significantly better player.

Many all-time great players in place of Dirk playing that competition with his help come away with 0 titles imo.

I agree with that--but what you and others often seem to say is only 1-2 teams were legit contenders. The roster of contenders is usually 4-6 teams. The Mavericks were second tier contenders. The irony is the 11' Mavs wouldn't be considered contenders under the definition used often on ISH or compared to the teams you referenced.

Take the Raptors this year. They are not favorites but if they win this year it isn't the same thing as the Pacers doing it. The Raptors are second tier contenders--the Pacers dark horses.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with that--but what you and others often seem to say is only 1-2 teams were legit contenders. The roster of contenders is usually 4-6 teams. The Mavericks were second tier contenders. The irony is the 11' Mavs wouldn't be considered contenders under the definition used often on ISH or compared to the teams you referenced.

Take the Raptors this year. They are not favorites but if they win this year it isn't the same thing as the Pacers doing it. The Raptors are second tier contenders--the Pacers dark horses.

I never said only 1 or 2 teams can win each year.

I'm simply not in favor of lumping in a team like the Mavericks with Durant Warriors or something. The Mavericks were never in a title or bust year in reality based on their talent. Honestly, if they ever had a year like that...it was 2003.

So that needs to be factored in when someone calls them "perennial contenders"...I need context.

In addition, it makes a title won as a 2nd tier contender more valuable for the star player, imo, than a Durant or Shaq/Kobe title, for example. Just levels to this.

[Roundball_Rock]

Perennial contender=they were one of the top 4, 5, or 6 teams year in year out.


In addition, it makes a title won as a 2nd tier contender more valuable for the star player, imo, than a Durant or Shaq/Kobe title, for example. Just levels to this.

For sure. Dirk's 11' ring was one of the best rings given 1) his team 2) the teams Dallas went through to get it (Heatles, OKC, Lakers).

[miggyme1]

People still hold on to his one and only ring he won almost a decade ago..

- Speaking of a decade, since Dirk’s last season he hasn’t won a playoff series in close to 10 years (Last one was in 2011)

- In 2007 as a 1 seed, lost In 6 games to an 8th seed in his prime & averaged 19 ppg on 21% from three with 51% TS

- In 2010 as a 2 seed, lost again in 6 games to a 7th seed in the first round

- As a 7 footer never averaged 10 rebounds in 21 career seasons

Why is Dirk so worshipped? Is it because of that 1 ring against the Big 3 Heat?


U have to put stuff in context. In 2010 they lost to the spurs in the first round....a spurs team that had only lost 5 more games than the mavs. Thats why no one ever considers this an upset. Also this was the same year the lakers almost went 7 games with a young thunder team in the first round (the 8th seed). West was insanely good that year. Only 7 games separated the top seed from the 8th seed.

Second..dirk may have been 7 feet but he was a perimeter player. How do u expect anyone who plays on the perimeter to be a great rebounder??? Please explain.

[GimmeThat]

he's overrated in the sense that you can't even master a simple card game such as hearts/spades

[MoBe1Kanobi]

Because, like Luka, Larry, and Eminem... They're white

[iamgine]

Dirk led team, with some exceptions, usually overachieved. He's also a very unique player and a matchup nightmare.