Did Kobe Maximize His Talent?

[CTbasketball92]

His ability to make difficult shots, get wherever he wanted and pass and play defense were all All-NBA level.

Based on his ESPN video series and his own commentary and skills, Kobe knew all aspects of the game even if he was a ballhog.

His peak seemed to be below CP3 and DWade and especially LeBron and MJ. Stat nerds will eventually underrate him due to somewhat underwhelming advanced stats. We'll point to how people use data now vs then, but Karl Malone, Barkley, Larry Bird, Magic and MJ and Shaq dwarf Kobe in these categories and they played 30-35 years ago. It seems like the real top 20-30 GOATs have these numbers back them up.

So that leads me to the question: Did Kobe maximize his talent? What kind of outcomes and stats could he have had if he had maximized his talent—if you think he didn't maximize it.

I think about this Zach Lowe quote: "The fascinating, sometimes frustrating thing about Bryant's career was that he could have been any kind of player he wanted to be. He was that skilled."


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28574908/kobe-bryant-greatness-was-beautiful-maddening

[Marchesk]

He could have maximized his time with feeding the big dog.

[Whoah10115]

I stopped reading when you said he wasn't as good as...

Not worth responding to.

[Gudo]

He maximized his time emulating and picking stuff up from jordan whereas he could have revolutionalized the game in his own way had he gone a different direction.

[NBAGOAT]

Not that much. He would’ve been better with better shot selection but how much is it elevating him all time. Like is he better than shaq with better shot selection idts.

impact stats say he’s as good if not better than wade or cp3, stat needs have moved past per and ws. As skilled as he was which is maybe best ever, lot of greats have too tier athleticism. Kobe’s just behind guys like mj wilt shaq lebron Hakeem there

[Stanley Kobrick]

He maximized his time emulating and picking stuff up from jordan whereas he could have revolutionalized the game in his own way had he gone a different direction.
i agree with you gudo. wish we could have saw the player kobe himself was, rather than who he was trying to emulate. i'm not quite sure kobe ever really found himself as a player until his final days of retirement. he seemed more at peace in his farewell season

[Whoah10115]

Not that much. He would’ve been better with better shot selection but how much is it elevating him all time. Like is he better than shaq with better shot selection idts.

impact stats say he’s as good if not better than wade or cp3, stat needs have moved past per and ws. As skilled as he was which is maybe best ever, lot of greats have too tier athleticism. Kobe’s just behind guys like mj wilt shaq lebron Hakeem there

Already better than Shaq.

Shaq is great but Kobe accomplished more. And he tho he had Shaq, Shaq had him. Then Wade. Kobe did not.

And he didn't get away with offensive fouls that actually hindered and blocked the other guy. No one ever has.

[SamuraiSWISH]

i agree with you gudo. wish we could have saw the player kobe himself was, rather than who he was trying to emulate. i'm not quite sure kobe ever really found himself as a player until his final days of retirement. he seemed more at peace in his farewell season

Huh? His career was over. It was a nod to the fans. His team wasn’t playing for anything. His body was breaking down and he couldn’t compete or perform at the same consistent high level every night. His legacy was set. He won 5 championships. He didn’t “find himself as a player” even though he was either the best or 1b option on 4 championship teams, and won 5 of them in totality? The player he was and found himself to be was the closest thing to a cover band version of Jordan.

[NBAGOAT]

Already better than Shaq.

Shaq is great but Kobe accomplished more. And he tho he had Shaq, Shaq had him. Then Wade. Kobe did not.

And he didn't get away with offensive fouls that actually hindered and blocked the other guy. No one ever has.

Well agree to disagree but ik you’re low on shaq. Does better shot selection move him above magic or bird then who I think are ahead on most lists

[SouBeachTalents]

His poor shot selection was always his achilles heel, but you're seriously going to tell me a guy who was the 13th pick and rode the bench his first 2 years didn't maximize his talent with the career that he had?

And you've said this before, but how was his peak definitively below CP3? Are you basing that solely off of advanced metrics?

[Roundball_Rock]

His poor shot selection was always his achilles heel, but you're seriously going to tell me a guy who was the 13th pick and rode the bench his first 2 years didn't maximize his talent with the career that he had?

And you've said this before, but how was his peak definitively below CP3? Are you basing that solely off of advanced metrics?

Agreed. He could have been even better if he had better shot selection but ultimately you can't complain about a top 10 AT career.

[Doranku]

If you think Kobe peaked below Wade and especially CP3, there'a a high chance you spend more time looking at basketballreference than actually watching the game.

[iamgine]

No one truly maximize their talent. Kobe played the way his character lead him to play, like every other top players.

[Rysio]

If kobe was a lead dog from his first season he would've had a better career maybe 1 or 2 less rings but better individual career.

[warriorfan]

What else more did he need to achieve? Better advanced stats?




If Kobe played in a later era he would probably be more conscientious of his play in certain areas. He would focus more on his 3 point shooting. Look at the games players are having today in the league, Kobe would be going bigger then all these guys.

[34-24 Footwork]

Whats the obsession with "shot selection"? It's a new fan thing, I suppose

When he was playing, taking mid range jumpers is what his team needed to win. If he only took layups, dunks, and open 3's, there's no way he would've won as much as he did.

Unpredictability & effectiveness >>> efficiency. Especially in a game like basketball.


.

[NBAGOAT]

Whats the obsession with "shot selection"? It's a new fan thing, I suppose

When he was playing, taking mid range jumpers is what his team needed to win. If he only took layups, dunks, and open 3's, there's no way he would've won as much as he did.

Unpredictability & effectiveness >>> efficiency. Especially in a game like basketball.


.

it's not the midrange thing. He just took some ridiculous contested shots at a higher rate than the other guys of his era like tmac, wade, carter

[Doranku]

Whats the obsession with "shot selection"? It's a new fan thing, I suppose

When he was playing, taking mid range jumpers is what his team needed to win. If he only took layups, dunks, and open 3's, there's no way he would've won as much as he did.

Unpredictability & effectiveness >>> efficiency. Especially in a game like basketball.


.

This is why Kobe's playoff numbers are actually better than his regular season numbers. Today, you've got guys like Giannis and Harden battling for MVP yet who see monumental drop-offs to their production in the playoffs because their games are heavily reliant on something that isn't basketball talent.

[34-24 Footwork]

it's not the midrange thing. He just took some ridiculous contested shots at a higher rate than the other guys of his era like tmac, wade, carter

Soooo...? Whats exactly 'bad' about that? Why does that matter when evaluating his career when he's been more successful than them?

And I dont think you watched Tmac much. Lol.

[iamgine]

Soooo...? Whats exactly 'bad' about that? Why does that matter when evaluating his career when he's been more successful than them?

And I dont think you watched Tmac much. Lol.

What's bad about forcing bad shots and playing hero ball? Hmmm...

[NBAGOAT]

Soooo...? Whats exactly 'bad' about that? Why does that matter when evaluating his career when he's been more successful than them?

And I dont think you watched Tmac much. Lol.

well tmac's closer than the others so i shouldnt have thrown him in but kobe still took more of those ridiculous shots than him. The double clutches, shots over 2 defenders etc. I brought them up since they're from the same era with similar roles so that's who we compare shot selection with. Kobe's better than all of them but so what, question was did kobe maximize.

[34-24 Footwork]

I'm happy that Tmac didn't play in this era.

Trying to imagine TMac with a shot selection and only going for layups, 3's, and dunks seems rather boring.

[34-24 Footwork]

What's bad about forcing bad shots and playing hero ball? Hmmm...

He definitely took bad shots. I'm just wondering what a 'good shot selection' looks like.

Does it always lead to team success?

[34-24 Footwork]

well tmac's closer than the others so i shouldnt have thrown him in but kobe still took more of those ridiculous shots than him. The double clutches, shots over 2 defenders etc. I brought them up since they're from the same era with similar roles so that's who we compare shot selection with. Kobe's better than all of them but so what, question was did kobe maximize.

So again - what does a good shot selection look like? Only taking open shots? Uncontested dunks? Layups when possible?

He did all of that just as much as anyone else. But good teams needs a pressure release valve. And the player that does that won't ALWAYS look pretty while doing it.

[ImKobe]

Yes, he did. It's still crazy to think that his prime lasted 12 years with the amount of injuries he went through in his career. The stuff he was doing prior to him snapping his achilles in year 17.. He mastered pretty much every aspect of the game. You can fault him for his shot selection, but that's what made him a great player and why his team won 5 rings.

[NBAGOAT]

So again - what does a good shot selection look like? Only taking open shots? Uncontested dunks? Layups when possible?

He did all of that just as much as anyone else. But good teams needs a pressure release valve. And the player that does that won't ALWAYS look pretty while doing it.

for that era just less shots over double teams. willing to reset instead of taking the first look you can get early in the shot clock. completely agree on pressure valve, i dont care about end of shot clock stuff

[Docs Orders]

No, he missed the playoffs with a Prime Dwight Howard

[Roundball_Rock]

He just took some ridiculous contested shots at a higher rate than the other guys of his era like tmac, wade, carter

Exactly.

[tpols]

Look at Kobe's splits from the '01, '09, and '10 rings... huge positive differential on tremendous volume. Totally elite efficiency and impact. And that was WITH the bad shots from time to time. There are less than 10 players in the history of basketball with a collection of better runs and rings. A player straight out of high school goes on to have one of the best careers in NBA history and you're asking us if he didn't "maximize" his talent lmao. He blew that shit out the building. His dad was a role player. On some chef curry shit he turned water into wine by being one of the hardest working and fiercely competitive players ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

Look at Kobe's splits from the '01, '09, and '10 rings... huge positive differential on tremendous volume. Totally elite efficiency

Kobe was slightly below average league efficiency from the field from 2001-2013 (the time frame he was a superstar). Him being a plus FT shooter doesn't negate what he did in the field. He left points on the table taking bad shots. That's probably the biggest difference between the original Jordan and Jordan-lite. Jordan took better shots and when he was cold he dialed his shooting back while Kobe kept gunslinging no matter what (see the 04' finals).

In the playoffs he benefited from the rules changes immensely. He was 52% TS before the handchecking rule change, 56% after that.

[tpols]

Kobe was slightly below average league efficiency from the field from 2001-2013 (the time frame he was a superstar). Him being a plus FT shooter doesn't negate what he did in the field. He left points on the table taking bad shots. That's probably the biggest difference between the original Jordan and Jordan-lite. Jordan took better shots and when he was cold he dialed his shooting back while Kobe kept gunslinging no matter what (see the 04' finals).

In the playoffs he benefited from the rules changes immensely. He was 52% TS before the handchecking rule change, 56% after that.


I am in total agreement that Kobe was an up and down player. There were many runs in his career where his splits were negative or neutral... He did a lot of dumb things to off set positive impact in quite a few years. But when he won "superstar" rings... the impact was very elite.

You talk handchecking change.... Kobe put up a 116 ORTG and 99 DRTG in the playoffs in 2001 which had him measuring out with better advanced metrics than peak shaq en route to one of the most dominant post season titles of all time. Kobe definitely had his lows and deficiencies... but when he was on, he was on. And dominated like few ever have.

In the words of the Don... it is what it is. :confusedshrug:

[34-24 Footwork]

Itt, maximizing potential on the court physically = meeting weird, arbitrary standards on paper.

I really hope basketball doesn't turn into this.

[scuzzy]

Reminds me of Beijing Olympics when Team USA was practically getting anything they wanted offensively (55%fg) and Kobe was rifling away deep 3's all tournament clanking everything. Killing the pace



https://i.postimg.cc/yxvT7YtZ/ftgjfdtjtjh.png (https://postimages.org/)



Larry Brown was brilliant in 2004 letting Shaq get whatever he wanted. Knowing full well Kobe would get discouraged and break Lakers offense

He did exactly that

Kobe took 29 more shots than Shaq in the series despite Shaq averaging 27 PPG on 62 TS%. Kobe shot 38% in the series and shot them out of the Finals.

[Whoah10115]

Well agree to disagree but ik you’re low on shaq. Does better shot selection move him above magic or bird then who I think are ahead on most lists

I don't know if it moves him ahead. But I do think he could have been all-time #2. I think he failed to maximize in that regard.

I still have Shaq highly ranked. But I hated what he was allowed to do. Like a more repetitive Durant swim-thru move.

[HoopsNY]

Kobe's bad shot selection is well known, though sometimes it was necessary. It was not necessary prior to 2004-05, though. Other than that, I think he maximized his talent.

[34-24 Footwork]

Hmmm. You bring up the Olympics and you bring up 2004, respectively.

What happened in the 2004 Olympics WITHOUT Kobe?
Seems like adding an 'inefficient' Kobe was value added for the win.

Seems like individual FG% is completely unrelated to success.

However, I'm sure we define success differently. And thats ok, too.

[ArbitraryWater]

Hmmm. You bring up the Olympics and you bring up 2004, respectively.

What happened in the 2004 Olympics WITHOUT Kobe?
Seems like adding an 'inefficient' Kobe was value added for the win.

Seems like individual FG% is completely unrelated to success.

However, I'm sure we define success differently. And thats ok, too.

Another bullet point post from you.

You never say anything coherent.

You just prepare the same bullet points and ignore a host of other factors.

Yeah, converting shots and scoring at a higher rate is completely unrelating to winning the game.

How are you THIS dumb?

Like, THIS dumb?

Just.. log off.

Yeah the only change from 04-08 was Kobe. Sure. Even with the same players involved its not like 4 years isnt over a thousand days of personal growth.. No no. Course not.

Its funny you say individual FG% is irrelevant to winning

Oh but team FG% is?

Guess what that’s made of, doofus

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe's bad shot selection is well known, though sometimes it was necessary. It was not necessary prior to 2004-05, though. Other than that, I think he maximized his talent.

How is bad shot selection necessary?

Nothing bad is ever necessary

You are confusing things

[Gohan]

They didn’t need Kobe. They needed Vince or tmac. Instead of Marbury. They should of kept Iverson. Matter of fact they should of put Iverson on the 2006 team. It was an insult for a top 25 all time great not to get at least a tryout

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Incredible shot maker in his prime. Skill wise there may not be anyone greater. Also shot a TS% above league for most of his prime, too.

At the same, like RR said, Kobe left a lot of points on the table. Especially in the finals where his play wasn't like we saw in the regular-season or even the playoffs. Detroit in 2004. Boston in 2008. The Game 7 vs 2010 Boston (though to his credit, Kobe came up big on the boards). Bean's prime was akin to second 3-peat MJ although a less efficient one on the grand stage.

[scuzzy]

Hmmm. You bring up the Olympics and you bring up 2004, respectively.

What happened in the 2004 Olympics WITHOUT Kobe?
Seems like adding an 'inefficient' Kobe was value added for the win.

Seems like individual FG% is completely unrelated to success.

However, I'm sure we define success differently. And thats ok, too.
What happened in 2000 and 2016 Olympics without Kobe? What happened to Lakers without Pau/Shaq or Phil? :confusedshrug:

We can play YT comments all day

Fact is 2008 USA roster was completely overhauled with all the 04 starters being removed completely: Duncan, Marbury, Iverson, Marion, Jefferson, Amare (early 00's stars)

And replaced with better talent and minutes given to the studs of this era: Wade, Lebron, Anthony, Dwight, CP3, Bosh, Dwill

Could have redistributed Kobe's shots in the 08 olympics to anyone else on the team and they would have run house. Probably why Coach K went with Wade in crunch even though he came off the bench behind Bryant.

[34-24 Footwork]

Another bullet point post from you.

You never say anything coherent.

You just prepare the same bullet points and ignore a host of other factors.

Yeah, converting shots and scoring at a higher rate is completely unrelating to winning the game.

How are you THIS dumb?

Like, THIS dumb?

Just.. log off.

Yeah the only change from 04-08 was Kobe. Sure. Even with the same players involved its not like 4 years isnt over a thousand days of personal growth.. No no. Course not.

Its funny you say individual FG% is irrelevant to winning

Oh but team FG% is?

Guess what that’s made of, doofus

Lol. I can tell you're fresh off a ban and have a lot of things on your mind.

Get it off, champ.

[Clifton]

I think he would have been a better player, and won more titles, if he had allowed himself to be about 10% worse.

The excessive pride and just plain nastiness he cultivated in himself by trying, on the court and off, to be greater than his potential allowed--if Jordan is a 99/100 in terms of talent, Kobe was like a 92, but he played like he was 100--cost him a lot.

I don't think I ever saw Kobe miss a jumpshot from inside 17 feet. When he had a mind to pass, he is one of the best passers I have seen. But he was too impatient, too hungry to succeed. Can't wait for this play to develop. Have to score NOW. He was a basketball glutton.

Still got 5 titles, still a top-10 player ever. But I think it could have gone better for him if he weren't a sociopath.

[MrFonzworth]

Lol. I can tell you're fresh off a ban and have a lot of things on your mind.

Get it off, champ.

Funny he tries to call you out on saying nothing coherent. He's the king of that. Glad nobody respects him now, I've been calling him what he is for a while now. A know nothing retard who regurgitates what Bron stans say for some kind of identity.

[goozeman]

Maximizing efficiency is only really important for players that can get their own shot or can only attack from certain areas of the floor. Those players have to be efficient because that's the extent of their game. Kobe was a complete offensive weapon and volume shooter that could attack ALL LEVELS OF THE DEFENSE. He wasn't a guy who needed to flop around underneath the rim like Lebron or Harden in a weak defensive era or needed to wait to get his shot from three. LMAO at saying Wade and Chris Paul are on Kobe's level. We need to come up with ISH All-Flawed Team since ya'll some astonishingly bad takes on here, like Dwight Howard > Anthony Davis, Pippen = Jordan, Chris Paul > Kobe, Pippen > Kawhi. Maybe your team could score 80 points a game and you design an offense in which Pippen does not get utterly shut down whenever he encounters a decent defender in the half court or Dwight can turn to his right or do anything at all with his left hand.

[Gohan]

Funny he tries to call you out on saying nothing coherent. He's the king of that. Glad nobody respects him now, I've been calling him what he is for a while now. A SNITCH .

Fixed

[MrFonzworth]

Fixed

Snitch that got his ass beat in the OTC, a dick riding swallower in the NBA forum. Everything about him is cringe inducing.

[bigbrownschaub]

Snitch that got his ass beat in the OTC, a dick riding swallower in the NBA forum. Everything about him is cringe inducing.

herd it bowlf ways b

[knicksman]

Another bullet point post from you.

You never say anything coherent.

You just prepare the same bullet points and ignore a host of other factors.

Yeah, converting shots and scoring at a higher rate is completely unrelating to winning the game.

How are you THIS dumb?

Like, THIS dumb?

Just.. log off.

Yeah the only change from 04-08 was Kobe. Sure. Even with the same players involved its not like 4 years isnt over a thousand days of personal growth.. No no. Course not.

Its funny you say individual FG% is irrelevant to winning

Oh but team FG% is?

Guess what that’s made of, doofus

Arby, you think students who takes easier courses so they could get better grades are going to be more successful than those who take tougher courses? Its the same with kobe. He takes the tougher shots thats why hes more successful in the long run than lebron. Hes more clutch and ultimately his rings are more respected than lebron.

[ImKobe]

Kobe was slightly below average league efficiency from the field from 2001-2013 (the time frame he was a superstar). Him being a plus FT shooter doesn't negate what he did in the field. He left points on the table taking bad shots. That's probably the biggest difference between the original Jordan and Jordan-lite. Jordan took better shots and when he was cold he dialed his shooting back while Kobe kept gunslinging no matter what (see the 04' finals).

In the playoffs he benefited from the rules changes immensely. He was 52% TS before the handchecking rule change, 56% after that.

He's saying '01, '09 & '10, do you struggle reading? And no, he was not below league average in efficiency, if you're just using raw FG% and ignoring his volume 3PT shooting, sure.

The league average TS% was ~52% from 00-04, he averaged 54.9%TS in RS & was at the league average for the Playoffs in that stretch and peaked at 29.4 ppg on 55.5%TS for a title run. Guards just weren't efficient in that era due to the defense being at it's peak. The league average TS% was at 53.5% in '13, he averaged 27 ppg on 57%TS. So much for Kobe being so inefficient, he was regularly 2-4% above league league average TS% in his best scoring seasons from 01-13.


He didn't peak at age 21-25, he improved as a player. Rule changes obviously helped, but he improved his offensive arsenal throughout his prime.

[LAL]

Bronsexuals talking about kobe being a ballhog in a triangle system and 'leaving points on the table' :oldlol:

[Micku]

Not that much. He would’ve been better with better shot selection but how much is it elevating him all time. Like is he better than shaq with better shot selection idts.

impact stats say he’s as good if not better than wade or cp3, stat needs have moved past per and ws. As skilled as he was which is maybe best ever, lot of greats have too tier athleticism. Kobe’s just behind guys like mj wilt shaq lebron Hakeem there

Pretty much. That's his biggest weakness is the shot selection.

And Kobe got a little lazy on defense for a few seasons, but still got the 1st team all defensive team in those years. But when he is locked in, he's locked in.

Other than shot selection, and him not giving his all on defense at times, it's nothing that I can think of. I dunno how much better would I consider him.

[Round Mound]

Yes he did. He molded his game after MJ and had success. He wasn't the athletic freak Jordan, neither had the same strength or large hands etc but he was one of the most skilled players ever. Especially to the eye. He wasn't that efficient as a scorer though.