3ball
08-18-2020, 10:30 PM
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Here are other arguments that Roundball and others have run from and/or been defeated by lately:
1) Nobody else won 3 rings without their sidekick getting at least 1 FMVP or averaging 25-30 ppg, so how could anyone win 3 rings with Pippen, let alone 6?.. Only MJ could win 3 with Pippen, who was a "true" 2nd option (no FMVP or 25-30 ppg... 0/6 in FMVP)
2) Since the 3-point line was instituted, the all 40 MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so this means Bill Russell isn't MVP-caliber in the modern era, and MJ's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment (twice as many as anyone else in modern basketball)
3) 09' Lebron lost as a massive favorite with the #3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo - Jordan always won with that, even as a massive underdog:
09' Cavs'.... #1 SRS..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
89' Bulls... #10 SRS... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... defeat #1 SRS Cavs' (3 all-stars plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper)
4) 89' MJ nearly beat the Pistons even though Pippen averaged 10 on 40% (14/6/3 in regular season) - he obviously would've won if Pippen was replaced by a better 2nd option, which proves that MJ didn't need Pippen to win in 89', or Phil (Phil wasn't there in 89').. So MJ didn't need Pippen or Phil - case closed - the 89' carry-job proves it.
5) In 42% of Pippen's playoff series, he was either outscored or matched with much better efficiency (aka outplayed) by the opposing 2nd option or 2nd leading scorer - this occurred in 33% of series during the championship years.. Although it only happened in 1 of 6 Finals, he was arguably outplayed in 97' by Stockton and 93' by several (Pippen's worst-shooting Finals)
6) All of the arguments for Lebron over MJ can be used by others as well, and therefore aren't goat arguments..
a) Longevity
- Kareem, Kobe and Malone can claim similar longevity arguments over Jordan
- We can solve the unknown (why Jordan retired) by looking at what WOULD'VE happened if he'd had lost to Barkley.. If he lost to Barkley, it would've been shameful and ridiculous for him to retire right after - he simply would never have done it - he would've trudged forward just like 11' Kobe and 14' Wade after they lost their 3-peat bids.. but MJ won, which gave him the goat modern accomplishment over Bird and Magic (3-peat), so he was able to grieve his father by playing baseball - it was a luxury and the goat therapy.. Ultimately, the longevity argument assumes that Jordan was injured and wasn't physically capable of playing in 94' (like Bird's back in the late 80's) - but that wasn't the case..
b) Finals appearances
- Wilt, West, and Magic can claim the same Finals appearances
- Iverson, Kidd, Lebron and Dwight all carried sub-par casts to the Finals from 2001 to 2009 - so Lebron formed a super-team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the Finals streak (the definition of manufactured resume)
c) Winning the 16' Finals
- if KJ outplayed Jordan in the 93' Finals, would we say Barkley had the goat accomplishment by winning that series?.. Or if Rik Smits outplayed 00' Shaq, would Miller have the goat accomplishment?.. So when Kyrie outplays Curry, it's preposterous to say Lebron has a goat accomplishment.
d) 66 wins with Mo Williams
- Dirk won 67 in the West with a weak cast too.. Both were exposed in the playoffs and were among the biggest favorites ever to lose.
7) Unlike Lebron's non-goat arguments above (used by others), Jordan's arguments are singular to him, aka the most rings as the best player in 3-pointer basketball/modern era... goat production rate (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP seasons, PPG)... 6/6... the most 2-way accolades (scoring titles and 1st team defense or dpoy)
8) Since Lebron's 12 point increase in his ppg after game 4 overcame the biggest deficit in the 16 Finals, a similar 12-point increase in 2014 (from 28 to 40 ppg) would've turned around the 14' Finals
Here are other arguments that Roundball and others have run from and/or been defeated by lately:
1) Nobody else won 3 rings without their sidekick getting at least 1 FMVP or averaging 25-30 ppg, so how could anyone win 3 rings with Pippen, let alone 6?.. Only MJ could win 3 with Pippen, who was a "true" 2nd option (no FMVP or 25-30 ppg... 0/6 in FMVP)
2) Since the 3-point line was instituted, the all 40 MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so this means Bill Russell isn't MVP-caliber in the modern era, and MJ's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment (twice as many as anyone else in modern basketball)
3) 09' Lebron lost as a massive favorite with the #3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo - Jordan always won with that, even as a massive underdog:
09' Cavs'.... #1 SRS..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
89' Bulls... #10 SRS... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... defeat #1 SRS Cavs' (3 all-stars plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper)
4) 89' MJ nearly beat the Pistons even though Pippen averaged 10 on 40% (14/6/3 in regular season) - he obviously would've won if Pippen was replaced by a better 2nd option, which proves that MJ didn't need Pippen to win in 89', or Phil (Phil wasn't there in 89').. So MJ didn't need Pippen or Phil - case closed - the 89' carry-job proves it.
5) In 42% of Pippen's playoff series, he was either outscored or matched with much better efficiency (aka outplayed) by the opposing 2nd option or 2nd leading scorer - this occurred in 33% of series during the championship years.. Although it only happened in 1 of 6 Finals, he was arguably outplayed in 97' by Stockton and 93' by several (Pippen's worst-shooting Finals)
6) All of the arguments for Lebron over MJ can be used by others as well, and therefore aren't goat arguments..
a) Longevity
- Kareem, Kobe and Malone can claim similar longevity arguments over Jordan
- We can solve the unknown (why Jordan retired) by looking at what WOULD'VE happened if he'd had lost to Barkley.. If he lost to Barkley, it would've been shameful and ridiculous for him to retire right after - he simply would never have done it - he would've trudged forward just like 11' Kobe and 14' Wade after they lost their 3-peat bids.. but MJ won, which gave him the goat modern accomplishment over Bird and Magic (3-peat), so he was able to grieve his father by playing baseball - it was a luxury and the goat therapy.. Ultimately, the longevity argument assumes that Jordan was injured and wasn't physically capable of playing in 94' (like Bird's back in the late 80's) - but that wasn't the case..
b) Finals appearances
- Wilt, West, and Magic can claim the same Finals appearances
- Iverson, Kidd, Lebron and Dwight all carried sub-par casts to the Finals from 2001 to 2009 - so Lebron formed a super-team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the Finals streak (the definition of manufactured resume)
c) Winning the 16' Finals
- if KJ outplayed Jordan in the 93' Finals, would we say Barkley had the goat accomplishment by winning that series?.. Or if Rik Smits outplayed 00' Shaq, would Miller have the goat accomplishment?.. So when Kyrie outplays Curry, it's preposterous to say Lebron has a goat accomplishment.
d) 66 wins with Mo Williams
- Dirk won 67 in the West with a weak cast too.. Both were exposed in the playoffs and were among the biggest favorites ever to lose.
7) Unlike Lebron's non-goat arguments above (used by others), Jordan's arguments are singular to him, aka the most rings as the best player in 3-pointer basketball/modern era... goat production rate (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP seasons, PPG)... 6/6... the most 2-way accolades (scoring titles and 1st team defense or dpoy)
8) Since Lebron's 12 point increase in his ppg after game 4 overcame the biggest deficit in the 16 Finals, a similar 12-point increase in 2014 (from 28 to 40 ppg) would've turned around the 14' Finals