Why player-fans are the worst - The Jordan effect...

[ninephive]

I've always wondered why player-fans are the most detestable type of sports "fans," so this is a quick attempt to put it into words:

"Players win, teams lose" - The Jordan effect:

In the history of sports, the "player-fan" phenomena has never been more clearly seen than in Michael Jordan. Countless millions of Jordan fans have no clue that he had 5 losing seasons (out of 15 played). How can a top-5 player have losing seasons a third of his career and no one know it? We're not talking early playoff exits (Jordan's 1-9 record without Pippen/Phil) or inability to beat championship teams in their prime (Pistons)...we're talking about below-average seasons.

So how does Jordan "get away with it?" The answer is that player-fans don't "count" team losses against their "player." But they do count team wins "for" their player. Somehow the inverse of "Jordan carried the team" isn't "Jordan couldn't carry the team." It's become "Jordan didn't have enough talent around him." Of course, once he wins, the narrative isn't "Jordan has so much talent around him."

Combine this with the "young/old" excuses that players (not teams) "get" and you have the perfect recipe for player-worship. Consider the amount of excuses Jordan gets:

a. 3 losing seasons & a 1-9 playoff record before Pippen/Phil - "He was young and didn't have talent around him."
b. Jordan's inability to beat the Pistons 3 years in a row - "He got the last word" (notice: not "the Pistons got old"...more on that in a minute)
c. Jordan's inability to beat the Magic in '95 - "He had just come back from his first retirement."
d. Jordan's inability to have a winning season on the Wizards - "He didn't have talent around him, was old, and was retired again."

You never hear these narratives though:

-Jordan could never carry a bad team to a decent season
(without Pippen, Jordan had 2 winning seasons, 5 losing seasons).
(without Jordan, Pippen had 6 winning seasons, 0 losing seasons).
-Jordan could never beat a championship team in their prime (beat washed-up Pistons & Kareem-less, HIV Magic Lakers...the closest).
-Jordan could never win a playoff series without Pippen (but Pippen won several without Jordan).
-Jordan could never win a championship without Phil (but Phil won many without Jordan).

[Akeem34TheDream]

I agree.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Btw OP is a Tony Parker stan.

[ninephive]

Btw OP is a Tony Parker stan.
True, but also a current Spurs fan.

[ImKobe]

Jordan could never carry a bad team to a decent season - won 50 games with rookie Pippen as the 6th-7th guy on the rotation averaging 7.9 ppg, 0 all-star teammates, 13 ppg 2nd option, team made the 2nd round
Jordan could never beat a championship team in their prime - Pistons were B2B champs, their 3 best players were in their primes.
Jordan could never win a Playoff series without Pippen - beat the Cavaliers averaging 45.2 ppg on 63.2%TS with B2B 50-point games(only player in league history to have B2B 50-point games in the Playoffs), 2nd option averaged 10.8 ppg, Pippen had 0 points in Game 1 win & 8 points in Game 2 win.
Jordan could never win a championship without Phil - Cavaliers lost in 6 in ECF in 1989 without him, Pippen & Grant were in their 2nd seasons and averaged 19 ppg combined.

It was only a matter of time for Jordan.

Players obviously need great teammates to win championships, but when we're comparing ATG players, we have to look at their individual performances & wins. All the top 10-20 all-time great players played on the great teams, some of them played better in more runs in order to earn a higher all-time ranking.

We hear these narratives all the time, depending on who you're arguing for/against. Lebron stans have used these angles for the past decade, but Jordan still won twice as many rings while leading the league & Playoffs in scoring every single time while also being an elite defensive player, his advanced stats are also GOAT-level. I'm not sure how you can really make a case against him. He played with Pippen for almost his entire career, now we're trying to give him shit for not beating title contenders prior to his prime? Who else won 6 rings in 7 seasons in their prime while putting up ATG numbers?

[PeroAntic]

So? its the same for Lebron.

[STATUTORY]

I detest player fans myself, but acting like player fans is a jordan specific thing is disingenuous at best

[ninephive]

Jordan could never carry a bad team to a decent season - won 50 games with rookie Pippen as the 6th-7th guy on the rotation averaging 7.9 ppg, 0 all-star teammates, 13 ppg 2nd option, team made the 2nd round

He won 50 games with Charles Oakley, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, John Paxson, etc.

Jordan could never beat a championship team in their prime - Pistons were B2B champs, their 3 best players were in their primes.

The Pistons leading scorers were Vinnie Johnson and Mark Aguirre. The series before, Isaiah averaged 8.5 PPG. That team was a shell of itself.

Jordan could never win a Playoff series without Pippen - beat the Cavaliers averaging 45.2 ppg on 63.2%TS with B2B 50-point games(only player in league history to have B2B 50-point games in the Playoffs), 2nd option averaged 10.8 ppg, Pippen had 0 points in Game 1 win & 8 points in Game 2 win.

So he beat a Mark Price-led team in the first round with Charles Oakley, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, and John Paxson. Wow.

Jordan could never win a championship without Phil - Cavaliers lost in 6 in ECF in 1989 without him, Pippen & Grant were in their 2nd seasons and averaged 19 ppg combined.

Thanks for confirming this statement as well.

It was only a matter of time for Jordan.

Players obviously need great teammates to win championships, but when we're comparing ATG players, we have to look at their individual performances & wins. All the top 10-20 all-time great players played on the great teams, some of them played better in more runs in order to earn a higher all-time ranking.

We hear these narratives all the time, depending on who you're arguing for/against. Lebron stans have used these angles for the past decade, but Jordan still won twice as many rings while leading the league & Playoffs in scoring every single time while also being an elite defensive player, his advanced stats are also GOAT-level. I'm not sure how you can really make a case against him. He played with Pippen for almost his entire career, now we're trying to give him shit for not beating title contenders prior to his prime? Who else won 6 rings in 7 seasons in their prime while putting up ATG numbers?
Thanks for confirming my statements (above).

[Gudo]

I dont know if its fare to expect a young jordan beat the roster heavy celtics and pistons. I dont think any single player in a trashy team could have done it. Not even shaq or wilt.

That said, i agree with you, it should never just be about one player, whether in winning or losing. The championsip bulls had a really good team, and saying jordan carried them to all the championships is a huge disservice.

[ImKobe]

Thanks for confirming my statements (above).

Ok, you're clearly a deluded Lebron stan/Jordan hater. I'll gladly remind myself to never respond to your bullshit again. MJ averages 45.2 ppg (34.4 ppg more than his 2nd option, likely largest in league history in any series) to carry his team past the 1st round and gets no credit from losers like you. Why even bother pretending to be an objective fan of the game when you follow it up with shit like this?

Let me guess, Pippen was the the reason the Bulls beat the Cavs in '89 as well, because MJ averaging 39.8 ppg (24.8 ppg more than Pippen) and winning Game 5 (Game 7 by today's standards) on a buzzer-beater wasn't the main reason. No. It was Pippen averaging 15 ppg on 51.0%TS as a 2nd option (13 on 4/14 FG in Game 5, Jordan had 44 on 17/32 FG). Absolutely retarded.

[Roundball_Rock]

Basketball is now viewed as tennis. Even Simmons on his podcast the other day kept talking about series as 1-on-1 match ups.

The Jordan stuff is funny because whenever he lost his stans are quick to blame everybody but Jordan but when they won it was all him. Moreover, his team supposedly was trash when he was there but magically had the best roster in the NBA when he was retired (which bizarrely implies adding the possible GOAT somehow made the roster worse). The contradictions of this is endless (another example, Grant sucked as a third guy but was magically an awesome second guy) but you get the point.



So he beat a Mark Price-led team in the first round with Charles Oakley, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, and John Paxson. Wow.

Mark Price is awesome while Pippen was Larry Hughes per IMKobe. :lol Another example: the agenda calls to hype the vastly inferior player while diminishing the vastly superior player. Pippen outplayed Price three years in a row in the playoffs--and Pippen sucks, so what does that make Price? :oldlol:

MJ stains are the worst hands down.

[SATAN]

Agree. MJ stans are/were completely brainwashed. Similar to a religious cult. It's like discussing basketball with a real life zombie at times.

[Roundball_Rock]

Agree. MJ stans are/were completely brainwashed. Similar to a religious cult. It's like discussing basketball with a real life zombie at times.

Yup. There is no consistency or logic, 90% of them sing from the same song sheet (do they have their own holy book? :lol ), every "view" they have about the 90's is filtered through the Jordan agenda (i.e., every star was awesome in the 90's--except Pippen who was Larry Hughes), etc.

[Marchesk]

This site exists primarily to troll as a player stan, so it's weird to complain about it, particularly against one particular player stan.

[ImKobe]

Basketball is now viewed as tennis. Even Simmons on his podcast the other day kept talking about series as 1-on-1 match ups.

The Jordan stuff is funny because whenever he lost his stans are quick to blame everybody but Jordan but when they won it was all him. Moreover, his team supposedly was trash when he was there but magically had the best roster in the NBA when he was retired (which bizarrely implies adding the possible GOAT somehow made the roster worse). The contradictions of this is endless (another example, Grant sucked as a third guy but was magically an awesome second guy) but you get the point.



Mark Price is awesome while Pippen was Larry Hughes per IMKobe. :lol Another example: the agenda calls to hype the vastly inferior player while diminishing the vastly superior player. Pippen outplayed Price three years in a row in the playoffs--and Pippen sucks, so what does that make Price? :oldlol:

MJ stains are the worst hands down.

Pippen doesn't suck, not everyone's senile like 3Ball on this site, and don't take every response literally when I'm replying to the worst trolls on this site (the same guys who say MJ would be DeRozan in this era).

[LAL]

Basketball is now viewed as tennis. Even Simmons on his podcast the other day kept talking about series as 1-on-1 match ups.

The Jordan stuff is funny because whenever he lost his stans are quick to blame everybody but Jordan but when they won it was all him. Moreover, his team supposedly was trash when he was there but magically had the best roster in the NBA when he was retired (which bizarrely implies adding the possible GOAT somehow made the roster worse). The contradictions of this is endless (another example, Grant sucked as a third guy but was magically an awesome second guy) but you get the point.



Mark Price is awesome while Pippen was Larry Hughes per IMKobe. :lol Another example: the agenda calls to hype the vastly inferior player while diminishing the vastly superior player. Pippen outplayed Price three years in a row in the playoffs--and Pippen sucks, so what does that make Price? :oldlol:

MJ stains are the worst hands down.

Who's your favourite team?

[Leviathon1121]

Basketball is now viewed as tennis. Even Simmons on his podcast the other day kept talking about series as 1-on-1 match ups.

The Jordan stuff is funny because whenever he lost his stans are quick to blame everybody but Jordan but when they won it was all him. Moreover, his team supposedly was trash when he was there but magically had the best roster in the NBA when he was retired (which bizarrely implies adding the possible GOAT somehow made the roster worse). The contradictions of this is endless (another example, Grant sucked as a third guy but was magically an awesome second guy) but you get the point.



Mark Price is awesome while Pippen was Larry Hughes per IMKobe. :lol Another example: the agenda calls to hype the vastly inferior player while diminishing the vastly superior player. Pippen outplayed Price three years in a row in the playoffs--and Pippen sucks, so what does that make Price? :oldlol:

MJ stains are the worst hands down.

3ball triggers this guy almost as much as Jordan being the consensus GOAT.

[Kblaze8855]

Fans who hate the team their player is on really are the worst kinds but Jordan fans are largely being painted with a 3ball brush. Jordan had idiotic player only fans but 3ball types are rare. But generally speaking...yes...player only fans are generally the worst in sports. Jordan, Lebron, and even guys like Dirk, Giannis, and Steph have some of the worst fans here or in person. If you feel it’s your duty to shit on a team to make your favorite player look better you’re probably garbage.

[iamgine]

I've always wondered why player-fans are the most detestable type of sports "fans," so this is a quick attempt to put it into words:

"Players win, teams lose" - The Jordan effect:

In the history of sports, the "player-fan" phenomena has never been more clearly seen than in Michael Jordan. Countless millions of Jordan fans have no clue that he had 5 losing seasons (out of 15 played). How can a top-5 player have losing seasons a third of his career and no one know it? We're not talking early playoff exits (Jordan's 1-9 record without Pippen/Phil) or inability to beat championship teams in their prime (Pistons)...we're talking about below-average seasons.

So how does Jordan "get away with it?" The answer is that player-fans don't "count" team losses against their "player." But they do count team wins "for" their player. Somehow the inverse of "Jordan carried the team" isn't "Jordan couldn't carry the team." It's become "Jordan didn't have enough talent around him." Of course, once he wins, the narrative isn't "Jordan has so much talent around him."

Combine this with the "young/old" excuses that players (not teams) "get" and you have the perfect recipe for player-worship. Consider the amount of excuses Jordan gets:

a. 3 losing seasons & a 1-9 playoff record before Pippen/Phil - "He was young and didn't have talent around him."
b. Jordan's inability to beat the Pistons 3 years in a row - "He got the last word" (notice: not "the Pistons got old"...more on that in a minute)
c. Jordan's inability to beat the Magic in '95 - "He had just come back from his first retirement."
d. Jordan's inability to have a winning season on the Wizards - "He didn't have talent around him, was old, and was retired again."

You never hear these narratives though:

-Jordan could never carry a bad team to a decent season
(without Pippen, Jordan had 2 winning seasons, 5 losing seasons).
(without Jordan, Pippen had 6 winning seasons, 0 losing seasons).
-Jordan could never beat a championship team in their prime (beat washed-up Pistons & Kareem-less, HIV Magic Lakers...the closest).
-Jordan could never win a playoff series without Pippen (but Pippen won several without Jordan).
-Jordan could never win a championship without Phil (but Phil won many without Jordan).

That's all irrelevant. In reality, basketball is won by the better team. The Bulls lost in Jordan's first few years because the team was inadequate, inexperienced and didn't have a suitable system and personnels. Once they installed Phil, along with Jordan and Pippen gaining experience, they dominated the league. Jordan was a great player, but no one can win by themselves.

[Stephonit]

One cannot blame people for being player fans when the coverage is all about players.

If the league considered this a problem they can always just remove the individual media awards and dim the attention placed on individual players. But they do the opposite.

Fact is they promote it. So why should it be considered a problem?

[red1]

Fans who hate the team their player is on really are the worst kinds but Jordan fans are largely being painted with a 3ball brush. Jordan had idiotic player only fans but 3ball types are rare. But generally speaking...yes...player only fans are generally the worst in sports. Jordan, Lebron, and even guys like Dirk, Giannis, and Steph have some of the worst fans here or in person. If you feel it’s your duty to shit on a team to make your favorite player look better you’re probably garbage.

100% fact



its literally the definition of a shameless bandwagoner - you phrased OP's point better than he did :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

It’s fine to love a player. It gets lame when that fan hood makes it obvious you will hate on whoever is required to make that player look better. I love Larry Bird. You never heard me talk shit about Mchale or Dennis Johnson. I’ve loved Jordan all my life. Feel no need to downplay Pippen or Kukoc or whoever.

But Kobe fans can’t stop hating on Pau, Lebron fans hate on *insert teammate threat to Lebrons credit of the day*, we had an insane Dirk fan calling all the other Mavs trash, supposed warrior fans who do little but hate on Klay because they are really Steph fans and on and on.

Those fans are with absolutely no exception....trash.

[Stephonit]

It’s fine to love a player. It gets lame when that fan hood makes it obvious you will hate on whoever is required to make that player look better. I love Larry Bird. You never heard me talk shit about Mchale or Dennis Johnson. I’ve loved Jordan all my life. Feel no need to downplay Pippen or Kukoc or whoever.

But Kobe fans can’t stop hating on Pau, Lebron fans hate on *insert teammate threat to Lebrons credit of the day*, we had an insane Dirk fan calling all the other Mavs trash, supposed warrior fans who do little but hate on Klay because they are really Steph fans and on and on.

Those fans are with absolutely no exception....trash.

Blame the media and Nike lionizing Jordan and creating the myth of the Chosen One. I don't really see this problem with the more team-oriented players and less individual player dominated teams. But let's face it the media continually fan the flames of drama by constantly asking which player was better and giving awards that while named for Bill Russell are only doled out to those who play like Jordan.

[ninephive]

Ok, you're clearly a deluded Lebron stan/Jordan hater. I'll gladly remind myself to never respond to your bullshit again. MJ averages 45.2 ppg (34.4 ppg more than his 2nd option, likely largest in league history in any series) to carry his team past the 1st round and gets no credit from losers like you. Why even bother pretending to be an objective fan of the game when you follow it up with shit like this?

Let me guess, Pippen was the the reason the Bulls beat the Cavs in '89 as well, because MJ averaging 39.8 ppg (24.8 ppg more than Pippen) and winning Game 5 (Game 7 by today's standards) on a buzzer-beater wasn't the main reason. No. It was Pippen averaging 15 ppg on 51.0%TS as a 2nd option (13 on 4/14 FG in Game 5, Jordan had 44 on 17/32 FG). Absolutely retarded.
I agree that was a great series. A few things to consider:

1. Jordan attempted 3x as many FGs as anyone else on his team. That's insane. I hope he scores more than the rest of them by a large margin!
2. He shot !!!6X!!! as many free throws as anyone on his team. That's just ludicrous. That's the pinnacle of ball-hog/superstar treatment to the max.
3. He beat a team that was 5th place in the division (not exactly tough competition).

I'm definitely no Lebron stan, but him leading his team in every major statistical category (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, & steals) while beating a 73-win team in the Finals is a far better accomplishment than that (and anything Jordan ever did to be honest).


Oh, and Jordan went on the next series to get absolutely destroyed by the Pistons, who beat them 4-1 and won by an average of 15 points in the wins. The series wasn't even close.

[Roundball_Rock]

The problem is 1) it is a team sport and 2) the hypocrisy. If basketball is boiled down to being tennis and one player gets sole credit for team wins, the OP's point is then you have to own the corollary when the player in question lost. Instead, what we always hear (no matter who, MJ stans get flack because they are the worst but they aren't alone) is "He won, the others lost." The excuse when losing happens is a lack of help; when there is winning going on the narrative is there was no help--just one guy winning by himself. Contradictions to promote fallacies and myths.

The LeBron/AD dynamic is comical. When they win LeBron fans say it is LeBron, LeBron haters say it is AD. When they lose LeBron fans say it is AD, LeBron haters say it is LeBron. Come on people. :lol

[Axe]

3ball triggers this guy almost as much as Jordan being the consensus GOAT.
Now wonder the board's got someone who flocks in this kind of threads and never always ceases to mention about his delusional stans. Rent free all day as they say.

[Axe]

Blame the media and Nike lionizing Jordan and creating the myth of the Chosen One. I don't really see this problem with the more team-oriented players and less individual player dominated teams. But let's face it the media continually fan the flames of drama by constantly asking which player was better and giving awards that while named for Bill Russell are only doled out to those who play like Jordan.
Lol if they treat stephen curry the same way, you'll just be even swayed more towards stanning him to death.

[Marchesk]

Anyone remember Euroleague? Talk about a player stan.

[RogueBorg]

This didn't start with Jordan. The same thing has been done with starting QB's in the NFL going back to the 70's and 80's;

"4-Time Super Bowl Champion Joe Montana" or "4-Time Super-Bowl Champion Terry Bradshaw."

Montana played 15 seasons but the 11 years he didn't win is never brought up.

Don't act like this is something new.

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball triggers this guy

:lol 3ball is a cop out. He didn't even join ISH until halfway through 2014. What he exemplifies predates him, at least going back to 2009 when I started here (can't speak to before that). All the stuff the OP said was being said by the usual suspects for at least 5+ years before 3ball. He is another version of what a dozen plus other posters, almost all here before 3ball, are. To you I am sure he is a giant who warrants "triggered", though.

Anyway, I know you are incapable of discussion, but try to follow. The discussion moved from MJ stans to stans in general and how team results are conflated with individuals in basketball. Your hero is safe.

[Stephonit]

Lol if they treat stephen curry the same way, you'll just be even swayed more towards stanning him to death.

Given what Curry and his team have done, by any objective standard he is the best player in the world. Period. There should be no conversation about that. The only conversation we should be having is if he can be the best player of all-time.

That we have a media that doesn't seem to want to acknowledge the level of his accomplishments is astounding and peculiar. It is one of the clearest signs to me in everyday living that something really odd is going on. Propaganda is at work, opinions are being manipulated, and we might all be living in a North Korea. I'm simply try to gauge how thoroughly warped everyone's opinions are when I make my arguments and assess the response.

[Axe]

Given what Curry and his team have done, by any objective standard he is the best player in the world. Period. There should be no conversation about that. The only conversation we should be having is if he can be the best player of all-time.

That we have a media that doesn't seem to want to acknowledge the level of his accomplishments is astounding and peculiar. It is one of the clearest signs to me in everyday living that something really odd is going on. Propaganda is at work, opinions are being manipulated, and we might all be living in a North Korea. I'm simply try to gauge how thoroughly warped everyone's opinions are when I make my arguments and assess the response.
:oldlol:

He was successful because steve kerr became the catalyst for the birth of the warriors dynasty.

[Stephonit]

:oldlol:

He was successful because steve kerr became the catalyst for the birth of the warriors dynasty.

Of course you completely miss the point. But it's instructive to realize how pliable the kind of putty that the propagandists have to work with is.

[Roundball_Rock]

Given what Curry and his team have done, by any objective standard he is the best player in the world. Period. There should be no conversation about that.

Why? Because he was the most important player on the best team of the era? This is what the OP is getting at about hyping team results as individual achievements. If people want to do this, they can't just take the credit for the W's and disclaim any ownership for the L's.

[Stephonit]

Why? Because he was the most important player on the best team of the era? This is what the OP is getting at about hyping team results as individual achievements. If people want to do this, they can't just take the credit for the W's and disclaim any ownership for the L's.

If the exact nature of the OP's concerns were valid then we'd currently be inundated with Curry hagiography—but we aren't. Instead what we have is LeBron and Jordan hagiography. That is the really weird part. This is basically like a constant retelling of the story of our dear leader Kim Il Sung.

[Axe]

Of course you completely miss the point. But it's instructive to realize how pliable the kind of putty that the propagandists have to work with is.
Well, what makes you think he's the best player in the world? I honestly don't see what you're trying to make up in here.

[Roundball_Rock]

If the exact nature of the OP's concerns were valid then we'd currently be inundated with Curry hagiography—but we aren't. Instead what we have is LeBron and Jordan hagiography. That is the really weird part. This is basically like a constant retelling of the story of our dear leader Kim Il Sung.

The OP used MJ and his stans as an example of what he called the "Jordan effect" regarding team results being attributed solely to one player if it is a W and excuses and deflection when it is a L. LeBron doesn't fit that rubric as well because his stans aren't making an argument for him as GOAT based on him having 3 rings. They show the same hypocrisy for team results but their case for LeBron doesn't completely revolve around team results like MJ stans'. This isn't surprising: 3 rings isn't the record while MJ stans at least can spin themselves into thinking 6 is.

I don't see a mass movement crediting Curry with sole ownership of arguably the GOAT team or to shift the blame for the losses to other players so the OP doesn't apply to Curry. I think he had MJ stans in mind as the prime example but also LeBron, Kobe stans (i.e., the three largest fan bases by far).

I like Giannis and I can admit that while he got poor support yesterday but he bears some blame because of his weakness as a shooter. Is doing this that hard? It is a team game. The corollary is if they win it is because he got help from others.

[Stephonit]

Well, what makes you think he's the best player in the world? I honestly don't see what you're trying to make up in here.

He made 5 straight finals and won 3 rings. From that alone Curry should automatically be in the discussion of best player in the world. If a tennis player won 3 of the last 5 grand slam tournaments would anyone leave him off the list of best players in the world?

But there's more! The Warriors set records and not some weird abstruse record no one cares about. The Warriors set the records for wins which every great player in history had an opportunity to gun for.

But you say that's a team award. All right but the guy at the center of it all is a back-to-back and only unanimous MVP ever.

Given these achievements shouldn't we be hearing choruses of amazement? Anticipation if he can put together the next great career and ascend basketball's Mt. Rushmore?

Nope we're hearing crickets. If anything there's a push to write him off. Oh of course we also need to remember Jordan is the greatest of all time here's a new documentary to remind you.

[Axe]

He made 5 straight finals and won 3 rings. From that alone Curry should automatically be in the discussion of best player in the world. If a tennis player won 3 of the last 5 grand slam tournaments would anyone leave him off the list of best players in the world?

But there's more! The Warriors set records and not some weird abstruse record no one cares about. The Warriors set the records for wins which every great player in history had an opportunity to gun for.

But you say that's a team award. All right but the guy at the center of it all is a back-to-back and only unanimous MVP ever.

Given these achievements shouldn't we be hearing choruses of amazement? Anticipation if he can put together the next great career?

Nope we're hearing crickets. If anything there's a push to write him off. Oh of course we also need to remember Jordan is the greatest of all time here's a new documentary to remind you.
Yeah, he has had numerous achievements that are interesting in his career during the last five years but I don't think it's only him that made the warriors great alone. I already mentioned steve kerr being catalyst but don't you forget the other guys like klay, dray, iggy and ofc, kd then the less prominent players.

And while most would think that baldan is the goat, i don't think the bulls' success as a dynasty is just based on him alone either but obviously, he was the most decorated player for the said team so that's why they hype him a lot. If anything tho, i think him, pip and hof coach pj made the bulls great, then krause as well being executive since all were part of the six championships. Their different role players deserve credit too, including steve kerr.

Well I'm saying this as a long-time bulls fan. The team is a joke nowadays tho but hopefully they can come back at it again. When you think of it, the bulls and warriors share some similarities with regards to their respective dynasties.

[Gohan]

I think Steph is still the best in the world too

[Roundball_Rock]

He made 5 straight finals and won 3 rings. From that alone Curry should automatically be in the discussion of best player in the world

Durant changed the trajectory of Curry's reputation because after KD joined the perception was, however close it was, that Curry was the second best player on the team. If KD didn't come to GS and Curry kept winning he would get all the credit (under the "Jordan Effect" concept the OP spoke of). Curry clearly was more important than Durant to the team (look at their results with each player removed) but the perception was Durant was the best player and therefore deserved the most credit.

Someone might say Klay, Green, Iggy would get some credit. At the time--but as Pippen, McHale, et al. can tell you that is forgotten over time. Paul Pierce was on First Take this morning talking about finals records like they were boxing records for LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Russell.

It would have been the same with Curry 20 years later but Durant messed that up.

Curry has a shot to change it if he keeps winning after KD and KD flames out in Brooklyn. Then the narrative may be Curry won before, with, and after KD and Curry was the common denominator, the Russell of his era (won with Cousy, won after him; won with Havlicek, before him, etc.). This is a plausible scenario.

[Axe]

He made 5 straight finals and won 3 rings. From that alone Curry should automatically be in the discussion of best player in the world. If a tennis player won 3 of the last 5 grand slam tournaments would anyone leave him off the list of best players in the world?

But there's more! The Warriors set records and not some weird abstruse record no one cares about. The Warriors set the records for wins which every great player in history had an opportunity to gun for.

But you say that's a team award. All right but the guy at the center of it all is a back-to-back and only unanimous MVP ever.

Given these achievements shouldn't we be hearing choruses of amazement? Anticipation if he can put together the next great career and ascend basketball's Mt. Rushmore?

Nope we're hearing crickets. If anything there's a push to write him off. Oh of course we also need to remember Jordan is the greatest of all time here's a new documentary to remind you.
Btw, still the lack of fmvps (whether you like that or not) until now mostly puts some stain/mark in his resume. He had 5 chances but none ended up giving him at least one.

[ninephive]

This didn't start with Jordan. The same thing has been done with starting QB's in the NFL going back to the 70's and 80's;

"4-Time Super Bowl Champion Joe Montana" or "4-Time Super-Bowl Champion Terry Bradshaw."

Montana played 15 seasons but the 11 years he didn't win is never brought up.

Don't act like this is something new.
-First, I never said it started with Jordan or that it was "something new."

-Second, the Joe Montana stanning was never, and never will come close to the MJ stanning.

-Third, what are the blemishes on Montana's resume?

Jordan had 5 losing seasons, Montana never had one (unless you count the 82 strike season that was only 9 games).

The only time the 49ers missed the playoffs was '91 when Montana missed the whole season. He even got the Chiefs to the playoffs the 2 years he played there at the end of his career.

Montana never had the clear and obvious "I can't have a good season without world-class talent" career that Jordan did.

[ninephive]

Given what Curry and his team have done, by any objective standard he is the best player in the world. Period. There should be no conversation about that. The only conversation we should be having is if he can be the best player of all-time.

That we have a media that doesn't seem to want to acknowledge the level of his accomplishments is astounding and peculiar. It is one of the clearest signs to me in everyday living that something really odd is going on. Propaganda is at work, opinions are being manipulated, and we might all be living in a North Korea. I'm simply try to gauge how thoroughly warped everyone's opinions are when I make my arguments and assess the response.
0 FMVPs - for a guy who's played in 5 NBA Finals and had a good enough team to win 3 of them.

Steph before Klay, Draymond, Durant, Kerr, etc:

2009-10 - 26-56
2010-11 - 36-46
2011-12 - 23-43 (first year with KT)

A career loser before he gets a superstar team around him. Sounds like someone else I can think of...

[Roundball_Rock]

Second, the Joe Montana stanning was never, and never will come close to the MJ stanning.

Plus do you ever hear Montana won all by himself?

Brady is the only one in football who comes close to MJ in this regard but even Brady's most hardcore fans will acknowledge he had Belichick the entire time (football's version of Phil Jackson) and other great players like Gronk with him. They will give him 70% of the credit but not 100% of it like MJ stans.


The only time the 49ers missed the playoffs was '91 when Montana missed the whole season. He even got the Chiefs to the playoffs the 2 years he played there at the end of his career.

AFC championship too the first year in KC.

[ImKobe]

0 FMVPs - for a guy who's played in 5 NBA Finals and had a good enough team to win 3 of them.

Steph before Klay, Draymond, Durant, Kerr, etc:

2009-10 - 26-56
2010-11 - 36-46
2011-12 - 23-43 (first year with KT)

A career loser before he gets a superstar team around him. Sounds like someone else I can think of...

Weak argument, he was obviously their best player in 2015 and got robbed in the FMVP voting.

Oh wow, so they should have been winning in the West with a 1st/2nd year Curry? Why even list the 2012 season when he only played 26 games and was out due to ankle injury? (13-13 with him, 10 - 30 without). They made the 2nd round of the Playoffs in his first Playoff appearance in '13, when they won 47 games and upset a 57-win Nuggets squad.

Green became a starter in 2015 and made his first all-star team in 2016.

Speaking of the 2015 Championship run, Curry averaged 28/5/6/2 on 60.7%TS. Klay as the 2nd option averaged 18.6 ppg on 55.3%TS. Iguodala, the "FMVP", averaged 10.4 ppg on 54.6%TS.

[Stephonit]

0 FMVPs - for a guy who's played in 5 NBA Finals and had a good enough team to win 3 of them.

As I said in the post you replied to "any objective standard". The FMVP is not an objective standard. It is voted upon and is supposedly the result of voter opinion and therefore a subjective standard. Even as a subjective standard it is a weak one involving as it does only eleven people who can easily be manipulated—and it has been manipulated before.

The value you place on it and your willingness to place it above an objective record in terms of importance shows the mechanism by which people are influenced to value flimsy subjective opinion over strong objective statistical evidence. The media is gaslighting people on an industrial scale.