Is Anthony Davis a better #2 option than Scottie Pippen?

[TheCorporation]

Scottie is the current GOAT #2 option but Davis is giving Scottie Pippen a run for his money this year. Could it be that AD is now the best #2 option of all time or is Scottie still the best #2 option?

[NBAGOAT]

ik you'll never admit it but 01-02 kobe likely better than both. ofc then theres 17-19 curry

[TheCorporation]

ik you'll never admit it but 01-02 kobe likely better than both. ofc then theres 17-19 curry

*01 Kobe is on some top tier shit if we're talking one year only, same with Curry in 17 and 18 (not 19).

91 Pippen is elite too though. Especially that three year run 91, 92, 93 He was a PROBLEM

[kawhileonard2]

Davis is the #1 option. Led team in scoring and PER this year.

[SouBeachTalents]

02 Kobe is on some top tier shit if we're talking one year only, same with Curry in 17 and 18 (not 19).

91 Pippen is elite too though. Especially that three year run 91, 92, 93 He was a PROBLEM
Kobe was much better in '01 than in '02

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe in 2001 is the best #2 of all time.

Outside a few games in that finals, his postseason run was about as good as Shaq's. And that is Peak Shaq.

[TheCorporation]

Kobe was much better in '01 than in '02

Facts, I had it backwards :cheers:

Kobe 01 was top tier #2 option shit no doubt.

[tpols]

2001 Shaq was the GOAT 2nd option.

[3ball]

.
All-time PER

3. AD















130. Pip


The other stats are the similar gaps.. there's no debate.. From an impact standpoint,zweet ADs this era's DR

[Real14]

A.D is the lakers 1st option. Wade and Irving are tied for the best 2nd option . Pippen is not even top 5 best 2nd option.

[NBAGOAT]

Kobe in 2001 is the best #2 of all time.

Outside a few games in that finals, his postseason run was about as good as Shaq's. And that is Peak Shaq.

no case for curry at all?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

no case for curry at all?

He is in that discussion. I liked Kobe's overall game a little more that postseason.

[TheCorporation]

All-time PER

3. AD















130. Pip


The other stats are the similar gaps.. there's no debate.. From an impact standpoint,zweet ADs this era's DR

Careful on using PER as that would mean LeBron would have the best playoff run in NBA history in 2018 32.2

You sure? Think baby boi :lol

[kawhileonard2]

Careful on using PER as that would mean LeBron would have the best playoff run in NBA history in 2018 32.2

You sure? Think baby boi :lol

He got swept 4-0. And also played a team missing it's two best players in the Conference Finals and still went 7.

[NBAGOAT]

He is in that discussion. I liked Kobe's overall game a little more that postseason.

cant disagree about the postseason.

[Carbine]

At worst AD is a 1.b on this Lakers team, it's likely he is the first option when all is said and done.

This doesn't make LeBrons ring any less valuable by the way, we still count Kareem and Magics the same when they were either 1.a or 1.b depending on years in the first 3 titles.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

He got swept 4-0. And also played a team missing it's two best players in the Conference Finals and still went 7.

His team got swept, but he was great. 34/10/9 is a pretty special finals performance. And Boston wasn't missing their two best players. Gordon Hayward is not close to as good of a player as Jayson tatum.


As to the original topic, neither Pippen nor the Brow are the best second option ever. Steph Curry literally won back to back mvps and then still in his prime was the second option on a 67-15 team that went 16-1 in the playoffs. He averaged 28 points per game in the playoffs shooting 48% and 41% from 3. That is your GOAT second option.

[TheCorporation]

His team got swept, but he was great. 34/10/9 is a pretty special finals performance. And Boston wasn't missing their two best players. Gordon Hayward is not close to as good of a player as Jayson tatum.


As to the original topic, neither Pippen nor the Brow are the best second option ever. Steph Curry literally won back to back mvps and then still in his prime was the second option on a 67-15 team that went 16-1 in the playoffs. He averaged 28 points per game in the playoffs shooting 48% and 41% from 3. That is your GOAT second option.

That was only two years but still not a bad run. If we stretch it out to three or more years it's down to Pippen and that's about it

[Genaro]

I think that one can wonder if AD is really a second option. A lot of times he seems to be the top dog. I think it's something more 1A/1B like Magic-Kareem, Kobe-Shaq (01 - 04), Wade - James (2011), Curry - KD, etc.

[TheCorporation]

I think that one can wonder if AD is really a second option. A lot of times he seems to be the top dog. I think it's something more 1A/1B like Magic-Kareem, Kobe-Shaq (01 - 04), Wade - James (2011), Curry - KD, etc.

Good call. LeBron is in his 17th season and slowing down for sure, perhaps he is slowly passing the reigns to AD when he thinks he is ready and taking it back during other games/moments.

[LAmbruh]

goat 2nd option


1. Kobe
2. Gasol
3. Curry

[TheCorporation]

goat 2nd option


1. Kobe
2. Gasol
3. Curry

:lebronamazed:

[3ball]

*01 Kobe is on some top tier shit if we're talking one year only, same with Curry in 17 and 18 (not 19).

91 Pippen is elite too though. Especially that three year run 91, 92, 93 He was a PROBLEM

Pippen was horrible in 93' Playoffs

93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm.. 102 ortg.. 50.0 ts.. 26.2 pts and 7.4 assist per 100
14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm.. 106 ortg.. 56.0 ts... 28.2 pts and 6.2 assist per 100


And nearly caused loss in the 92' ECF with poor play:

Pippen... 16 on 40%
X-man.... 19 on 50%

So MJ had to save the team in Game 7

Pippen was only consistently-decent in 91', which was nowhere near secondary options that got FMVP's or averaged 25-30 ppg... Pippen is the only 2nd option with 2+ rings that has no FMVP or averaged 25-30 ppg...

Edit: Pau Gasol - I often forget about Pau because I often view Kobe/MJ as the same

[NBAGOAT]

Pippen was horrible in 93' Playoffs

93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm.. 102 ortg.. 50.0 ts.. 26.2 pts and 7.4 assist per 100
14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm.. 106 ortg.. 56.0 ts... 28.2 pts and 6.2 assist per 100


And nearly caused loss in the 92' ECF with poor play:

Pippen... 16 on 40%
X-man.... 19 on 50%

So MJ had to save the team in Game 7

Pippen was only consistently-decent in 91', which was nowhere near 01' Kobe or all the secondary options that got FMVP's... Pippen is the only 2nd option with 2+ rings that has no FMVP or averaged 25-30 ppg...

Edit: Pau Gasol - I often forget about Pau because I often view Kobe/MJ as the same

gasol is not pippen and a whole page of numbers wont change that

[3ball]

gasol is not pippen and a whole page of numbers wont change that

Unlike Pippen, Gasol got more than just "flow" points, aka unimportant points that the defense gives up as a standard.. he was a great post and iso player - a legit "threat", which Pippen never was.. look at the numbers above - they tell the story - 93' Pippen = 14' Wade... Pau was obviously much better

[Roundball_Rock]

Impossible to answer since people have no definition of #2 option, as these threads exemplify.

It is interesting Pippen finished top 5 in MVP alongside MJ (extremely rare for a "sidekick"--although Davis will join that short list this year) while being the #2 voter getter for all-NBA behind MJ (yes, ahead of prime Malone, prime Hill, Barkley, Kemp at forward...) yet he mysteriously is never mentioned in the supposed "1b" category by fans. That tells you the term has no meaning.

Basketball players are not corporate hierarchies unto themselves (they of course are part of a corporation which has owners, GM's, VP's, etc.), as much as NBA fans fantasize about 12 man (really 7-8 who actually play) groups being organized like a Fortune 500 company or a major government agency would be. :oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

Impossible to answer since people have no definition of #2 option, as these threads exemplify.

It is interesting Pippen finished top 5 in MVP alongside MJ (extremely rare for a "sidekick"--although Davis will join that short list this year) while being the #2 voter getter for all-NBA behind MJ (yes, ahead of prime Malone, prime Hill, Barkley, Kemp at forward...) yet he mysteriously is never mentioned in the supposed "1b" category by fans. That tells you the term has no meaning.

simplest answer is 2nd option is the guy who has the 2nd most shot attempts. so based on that tpols is right technically, shaq was the 2nd option in 2001. It's obviously a lot more useful to ask who's the best 2nd best player on a team.

[TheCorporation]

simplest answer is 2nd option is the guy who has the 2nd most shot attempts. so based on that tpols is right technically, shaq was the 2nd option in 2001. It's obviously a lot more useful to ask who's the best 2nd best player on a team.

Should it go by shots taken or actual points scored though?

6-game series

Player A takes 10 shots per game (makes 40% fg)
Player B takes 8.7 shots per game (makes 50% fg)

Player A made 24 shots out of 60, scores 48 points, or 8.0 ppg
Player B made 26 shots out of 60, scores 52 points, or 8.7 ppg

Player A took more shots, but Player B scored more (for the series) so I would be inclined to say the #2 option was Player B. What is your take?

[Roundball_Rock]

simplest answer is 2nd option is the guy who has the 2nd most shot attempts. so based on that tpols is right technically, shaq was the 2nd option in 2001. It's obviously a lot more useful to ask who's the best 2nd best player on a team.

That illustrates the flaw in that thinking. Shaq was the first "option" on plays--but since he commanded so much defensive attention often he kicked the ball out to Kobe and the others. JA Adande covered the Lakers during that time and he said the opposing team's scouting report would list Shaq as priorities 1, 2, 3, and 4 (they had it on a board in their locker room and in the pre-cellphone era reporters could walk in). That this is spun as 1b for historical revisionism purposes proves my point: it means nothing. Kobe wasn't even all-NBA 1st team in 01'.

How often did Magic or Isiah lead their teams in shots? They weren't first options? Byron Scott was the Lakers first option for one year then and Worthy for others (after KAJ finally declined by 87')?

Then you have cases where shots are not consistent with usage. A player could dominate usage in 29 MPG but have 1-2 less shots because another player played 35-37 MPG. Smits/Miller exemplify this dynamic.

[NBAGOAT]

Should it go by shots taken or actual points scored though?

6-game series

Player A takes 10 shots per game (makes 40% fg)
Player B takes 8.7 shots per game (makes 50% fg)

Player A made 24 shots out of 60, scores 48 points, or 8.0 ppg
Player B made 26 shouts out of 60, scores 52 points, or 8.7 ppg

Player A took more shots, but Player B scored more (for the series) so I would be inclined to say the #2 option was Player B. What is your take?

well A technically though i get why people pick B. dont think ppg works out much better either however. bigger problem is one guy may obviously be the guy who the offense is built around defense plans for but thats not something that gets answered simply. Need to just watch each team and make a subjective judgement. sometimes it's obvious but sometimes it isnt. Like I think it's obvious curry was the "first option" for those warriors teams with kd but I say most people here disagree. shot attempts and ppg both go against that too

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen and McHale are among those who (like Davis presumably this year) finished top 5 in MVP alongside the "#1" yet you never hear them as 1b. You hear it with guys like Kyrie, who has never gotten a MVP vote (not even a 5th place vote), or 2011-2014 Wade who was never first team all-NBA and never top 5 in MVP etc. What exactly does "1b" mean then? :lol

The obsession with scoring ignores obvious cases like Russell where he clearly was the best player but never led the team in scoring or Magic who led the team in scoring only in 87'.

[Lion's pride]

Damn for a player that is retired and NEVER gets put in the top 10 all-time, Pippen sure gets a lot of threads here. :facepalm:D

[goozeman]

Pippen and McHale are among those who (like Davis presumably this year) finished top 5 in MVP alongside the "#1" yet you never hear them as 1b. You hear it with guys like Kyrie, who has never gotten a MVP vote (not even a 5th place vote), or 2011-2014 Wade who was never first team all-NBA and never top 5 in MVP etc. What exactly does "1b" mean then? :lol

The obsession with scoring ignores obvious cases like Russell where he clearly was the best player but never led the team in scoring or Magic who led the team in scoring only in 87'.

Media awards... :rolleyes: Wade's 2011 and 2012 seasons are statistically better than ANY season of Pippen's, including the almost two full seasons without Jordan. He also outplayed Lebron for much of the 2011 regular season and the playoffs, including Finals. McHale likewise outplayed Bird in the playoffs on numerous occasions, including Finals. Davis has in truth been the Lakers best player this year as well. Even though Lebron gets all the credit for 2016, Kyrie's Finals performance was at least on par with Lebron's, and it was Kyrie who played the role of closer, taking many of the meaningful shots. Pippen never outplayed Jordan at any point when the two were on the same court for any meaningful stretch. Nor was he ever asked to close out games like Wade, McHale, Davis, and Kyrie.

[Phoenix]

simplest answer is 2nd option is the guy who has the 2nd most shot attempts. so based on that tpols is right technically, shaq was the 2nd option in 2001. It's obviously a lot more useful to ask who's the best 2nd best player on a team.

Shaqs 2001 playoff scoring numbers were 30.4ppg/21.5 shots/.555 compared to Kobe's 29.4ppg/ 22.4 shots/.469. On a board obsessed with efficiency( including and * especially * that poster), logically I'm not sure why the player converting at the lower rate is 1) first option and 2) taking the majority of the shots over the player who scores more points on less shots, even if the difference isn't big here. Shaqs free throw futility was his Achilles heel and yes that's a big deal in late game scenarios, so it makes sense to give the ball to Kobe in those scenarios, speaking to the symbiotic nature of their on-court relationship. I don't think that means Shaq didn't warrant more shots over a 48 min game though. Teams were willing to compromise their entire interior defense fouling Shaq at the end which also makes it easier for the other 4 on the court.

I mean obviously going 15-1 you can't knock the end results, but I'm just speaking strictly to the mental gymnastics being used here( not you specifically) trying to determine what a 1st/2nd option is on account of shot allocation. The offense worked through Shaq, both a product of the era and of the triangle ( which was designed to feature a dominant post player). Phil is even on record as saying Shaq was the perfect center( literally and figuratively) for that offense:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-los-angeles-lakers-with-bulls-we-never-really-had-that-how-shaquille-oneal-pushed-phil-jackson-to-join-lakers/amp/


"In the second part, Phil Jackson writes about how Shaq would be the perfect part of the triangle offense. The triangle offense is a strategy that is supposedly the most optimal way for all five players to space the floor on the court.

Jackson, along with his assistant coach Tex Winter, won 11 NBA Finals using the triangle offense. Hence, the Bulls head coach expert felt that Shaq’s game placed him as the perfect candidate for being the center in the offensive formation."

Shaqs post gravity presented lots of opportunities for the other 4 guys on the floor. By mere virtue of that, it seems the 'first' option in the offense was dumping into Shaq and forcing the defense to pick which poison they're drinking. I don't know if the net result was intended to be Kobe taking more shots, but that's how it worked out. Bear in mind that 2001 Kobe was in full-on ' I'm the next MJ so I need to avg 30ppg' mode which caused some tension with Shaq during the regular season.

[TheCorporation]

Most points scored = 1st option

NOT

Most shots taken

In my humble opinion

[StrongLurk]

AD is legit the number 1 option on the Lakers just like Shaq was when playing with Kobe (01-04).

So far in the playoffs, he's at 29/11/4/2/1.7 with only 1.7 turnovers per game.

31.22 PER, 120 ORTG, 95DRTG, 13.4 BPM.

He was an absolute monster in game 2/3 vs the Blazers and easily the most dominant player in the series so far.

Right now AD, Kawhi and Harden are battling for best in the West and there is a decent chance these players face off eventually.

[3ball]

AD is legit the number 1 option on the Lakers just like Shaq was when playing with Kobe (01-04).

So far in the playoffs, he's at 29/11/4/2/1.7 with only 1.7 turnovers per game.

31.22 PER, 120 ORTG, 95DRTG, 13.4 BPM.

He was an absolute monster in game 2/3 vs the Blazers and easily the most dominant player in the series so far.

Right now AD, Kawhi and Harden are battling for best in the West and there is a decent chance these players face off eventually.

This

AD and Wade outplayed Lebron for entire playoff runs (11', 20'), while Kyrie did in various playoff series (outscored Lebron)...

Otoh, Pippen never outplayed MJ or was within 10 points of him in ppg

Pippen and Gasol are the only 2nd options with 2+ rings that don't have a FMVP or average 25-30 ppg.. everyone else did this, aka 01' Kobe, 07' Parker, 88' Worthy, 16' Kyrie, 14' Kawhi, etc... only Pippen/Gasol weren't on this level

[TheCorporation]

This

AD and Wade outplayed Lebron for entire playoff runs (11', 20'), while Kyrie did in various playoff series (outscored Lebron)...

Otoh, Pippen never outplayed MJ or was within 10 points of him in ppg

Pippen and Gasol are the only 2nd options with 2+ rings that don't have a FMVP or average 25-30 ppg.. everyone else did this, aka 01' Kobe, 07' Parker, 88' Worthy, 16' Kyrie, 14' Kawhi, etc... only Pippen/Gasol weren't on this level

Sure he did. MJ was just a scorer (Melo, Iverson) while Pippen did everything.

Pip was a better passer, rebounder, defender and he totaled more rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks during their 6 year run. MJ only had more points. Iverson style.

[TheCorporation]

Media awards... :rolleyes: Wade's 2011 and 2012 seasons are statistically better than ANY season of Pippen's, including the almost two full seasons without Jordan. He also outplayed Lebron for much of the 2011 regular season and the playoffs, including Finals. McHale likewise outplayed Bird in the playoffs on numerous occasions, including Finals. Davis has in truth been the Lakers best player this year as well. Even though Lebron gets all the credit for 2016, Kyrie's Finals performance was at least on par with Lebron's, and it was Kyrie who played the role of closer, taking many of the meaningful shots. Pippen never outplayed Jordan at any point when the two were on the same court for any meaningful stretch. Nor was he ever asked to close out games like Wade, McHale, Davis, and Kyrie.

Did you know that Wade was like MJ before he got his savior? Both stuck in the 1st round for three years from 2007 to 2010, right before LBJ savior and Pippen savior arrived?

[3ball]

Corporation,

Both MJ and Pippen averaged the same APG, but MJ assisted 33% more often (28% to 21% - assist percentage in playoffs)

MJ assisted 33% more often because he can't assist on his own shots - and his volume was a lot higher than Pippen's - so there were less available shots for MJ to assist on - that's why MJ's assist PERCENTAGE was 33% higher than Pippen's in the playoffs (28% to 21%)

So mj assisted 33% more often, while averaging more apg than Pippen for 6 of 9 playoff runs, and doubling his scoring while getting more dpoy votes every year (goat 2-way load)

[Roundball_Rock]

The Jordan cult is a data free zone (except PPG!). :lol "Media awards", i.e., what the perception was at the time--not the revisionism of the most dishonest fan base in sports decades later. Jordan stains have zero beliefs or principles--just one agenda and every word is contorted to suit that agenda at a given moment.

You all have to get over 1-9 at some point. Jordan isn't going to win anything in Charlotte it seems. :oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

Shaqs 2001 playoff scoring numbers were 30.4ppg/21.5 shots/.555 compared to Kobe's 29.4ppg/ 22.4 shots/.469. On a board obsessed with efficiency( including and * especially * that poster), logically I'm not sure why the player converting at the lower rate is 1) first option and 2) taking the majority of the shots over the player who scores more points on less shots, even if the difference isn't big here. Shaqs free throw futility was his Achilles heel and yes that's a big deal in late game scenarios, so it makes sense to give the ball to Kobe in those scenarios, speaking to the symbiotic nature of their on-court relationship. I don't think that means Shaq didn't warrant more shots over a 48 min game though. Teams were willing to compromise their entire interior defense fouling Shaq at the end which also makes it easier for the other 4 on the court.

I mean obviously going 15-1 you can't knock the end results, but I'm just speaking strictly to the mental gymnastics being used here( not you specifically) trying to determine what a 1st/2nd option is on account of shot allocation. The offense worked through Shaq, both a product of the era and of the triangle ( which was designed to feature a dominant post player). Phil is even on record as saying Shaq was the perfect center( literally and figuratively) for that offense:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-los-angeles-lakers-with-bulls-we-never-really-had-that-how-shaquille-oneal-pushed-phil-jackson-to-join-lakers/amp/


"In the second part, Phil Jackson writes about how Shaq would be the perfect part of the triangle offense. The triangle offense is a strategy that is supposedly the most optimal way for all five players to space the floor on the court.

Jackson, along with his assistant coach Tex Winter, won 11 NBA Finals using the triangle offense. Hence, the Bulls head coach expert felt that Shaq’s game placed him as the perfect candidate for being the center in the offensive formation."

Shaqs post gravity presented lots of opportunities for the other 4 guys on the floor. By mere virtue of that, it seems the 'first' option in the offense was dumping into Shaq and forcing the defense to pick which poison they're drinking. I don't know if the net result was intended to be Kobe taking more shots, but that's how it worked out. Bear in mind that 2001 Kobe was in full-on ' I'm the next MJ so I need to avg 30ppg' mode which caused some tension with Shaq during the regular season.

yea i covered that in another post. best way to just watch and see with every team. In this case I think it's kind of clear the offense works through bron, ad's an elite play finisher and gets a lot of post ups in when bron sits. In a case like durant and curry, I think the offense ran through curry even if durant scored more in the playoffs. This stuff isnt always clear however. i would say majority of this board consider durant the "1st option" for example

[Phoenix]

yea i covered that in another post. best way to just watch and see with every team. In this case I think it's kind of clear the offense works through bron, ad's an elite play finisher and gets a lot of post ups in when bron sits. In a case like durant and curry, I think the offense ran through curry even if durant scored more in the playoffs. This stuff isnt always clear however. i would say majority of this board consider durant the "1st option" for example

Yeah Durant and Curry was an interesting case, but offensive continuity didn't break when Durant was out ( of course this should be expected seeing as KD joined an established core) and this was reflected in the W/L record. Which should be expected since a Durant-less Warriors team simply reverts ( more or less) to the prior team that had won a title one year,73 wins the next. Durant may be a better player in a vacuum but when Steph was out, the ball movement wasn't the same which adversely impacted guys like Klay and Dray, the offense became alot more predictable with KD doing alot more iso-ing, and the team record suffered. As the 2019 playoffs showed, the Warriors could get to the finals without Durant. It was the final showdown where he was mainly needed, giving the team a larger margin of error. He was in essence an overkill insurance policy. And that's no knock on him or his greatness, to be clear.