Here's some stats for a couple guys that once placed 3rd in MVP voting

[3ball]

20' George 1st Rd.... 15.3.. 7.4.. 4.0.. 40.9 ts

96' Pippen 2nd Rd... 15.3.. 8.3.. 5.2.. 41.6 ts
96' Pippen Finals..... 15.7.. 8.3.. 5.3.. 42.9 ts

93' Pippen 1st Rd.... 15.3.. 4.0.. 5.0.. 45.3 ts

98' Pippen ECF........ 16.6.. 7.7.. 5.2.. 46.3 TS

^^^ very similar


So stop posting about how Pippen was 3rd in MVP - it means that exactly nothing.. Pippen is a Paul George-caliber player and one normal regular season doesn't change that

and there's MANY 4-game stretches where Pippen played how George is playing right now - it was standard for Pippen.. he averaged 16.9 on 47.3 ts for the entire 96' playoffs, so there were tons of horrific 4-game stretches in there

[90sgoat]

Agreed

[Spurs m8]

Op on the money...as always.

Bron stans playing circus tricks their whole life

[Gray GOAT]

Wait.. Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting? Jesus, imagine having that as your 3rd option. Stacked beyond belief.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shit, MJ's teammate was 3rd in MVP?

Gawd damn

And ppl surprised MJ won a lot? He better have

[Shogon]

OP's mother is a slut whore.

[Roundball_Rock]

How weak was MJ's era if a scrub (as 1-9 ball and other MJ stains remind us daily) was placing 3rd in MVP and taking first and second place votes from peak Hakeem and peak Robinson (George has never gotten a first or second place vote in his career--Pippen did it multiple times) and was 94-68 ahead of prime Malone (MJ's biggest finals comp, right? :oldlol: ) and further still over prime Barkley (MJ's second biggest finals comp?) in all-NBA? :lol

I have MJ 2nd all-time but maybe I have to reconsider it based on the information from his fans about how he played in such a weak era. Imagine LeBron in an era where Draymond was a superstar/MVP candidate/1st team all-NBA lead vote getter/etc. Instead Draymond is a 3rd/4th option in today's era.

[ImKobe]

How weak was MJ's era if a scrub (as 1-9 ball and other MJ stains remind us daily) was placing 3rd in MVP and taking first and second place votes from peak Hakeem and peak Robinson (George has never gotten a first or second place vote in his career--Pippen did it multiple times) and was 94-68 ahead of prime Malone (MJ's biggest finals comp, right? :oldlol: ) and further still over prime Barkley (MJ's second biggest finals comp?) in all-NBA? :lol

I have MJ 2nd all-time but maybe I have to reconsider it based on the information from his fans about how he played in such a weak era. Imagine LeBron in an era where Draymond was a superstar/MVP candidate/1st team all-NBA lead vote getter/etc. Instead Draymond is a 3rd/4th option in today's era.

Bruh, Penny got multiple 1st place votes over MJ when the Bulls won 72 games, who cares. It doesn't make Pippen a better player because he got some pity votes when the best player in the league retired. Pippen and George were both 3rd in a 2-man MVP race, and?

[ImKobe]

No one's saying that Pippen sucked, I do find issue in people using some random media member's MVP vote as an argument to put one player over another. And yes, Pippen's era was weak for elite forwards compared to 2010-20. He wasn't going up against Lebron/Kawhi/KD/Giannis/AD to make those 1st teams and the Centers only had one slot on that team and I've seen you compare Pippen's All-NBA 1st teams to Centers in his era to argue him over them as well.

With Barkley declining/getting injured, there was no real competition for that 2nd F spot on the first team before Grant Hill, who made 2nd team his rookie year and was 1st Team over Pippen by his 2nd year '97. Chuck was missing too many games, though I do think he still should have been 1st team over Pippen in '95 with the Suns winning 59 games despite KJ missing almost half the season. Bulls were 3 games above .500 and didn't win more than 3 in a row all year prior to MJ's return.

[NBAGOAT]

I just find it funny George’s been so bad even 3ball has to downgrade him to a “pippen level” player after arguing for him for weeks.

I like pippen but still would put peak George ahead of him. George better put up like 50 tomorrow to make up for these games

[3ball]

No one's saying that Pippen sucked, I do find issue in people using some random media member's MVP vote as an argument to put one player over another. And yes, Pippen's era was weak for elite forwards compared to 2010-20. He wasn't going up against Lebron/Kawhi/KD/Giannis/AD to make those 1st teams and the Centers only had one slot on that team and I've seen you compare Pippen's All-NBA 1st teams to Centers in his era to argue him over them as well.

With Barkley declining/getting injured, there was no real competition for that 2nd F spot on the first team before Grant Hill, who made 2nd team his rookie year and was 1st Team over Pippen by his 2nd year '97. Chuck was missing too many games, though I do think he still should have been 1st team over Pippen in '95 with the Suns winning 59 games despite KJ missing almost half the season. Bulls were 3 games above .500 and didn't win more than 3 in a row all year prior to MJ's return.

80's were a golden age for forwards similar to the 2010's

Pippen's 18 on poor efficiency wouldn't compare to Alex English or Dantley getting 30 ppg on amazing efficiency... let alone the top tier forwards like Bird and Dr. J

[tpols]

yea i've found that funny.

When paul george throws up a dud... 15 points or whatever, we all lambast him but that was pippens baseline. Hence nobody really batted an eye.

PG13's expectations are simply way higher.

[Roundball_Rock]

If Player A=Player B but Player A is far more decorated in his era than Player B, the logical conclusion is Player B played in a much tougher era for top end talent. That is the implication of what you and your idol 1-9ball are arguing today. Really all the "Pippen sucks" stuff undermines MJ's era as incredibly weak but MJ stains fail to grasp that obvious implication.

You, as usual, demonstrate your lack of knowledge about the 90's along with a lack of basic intelligence. What part of "multiple years" do you fail to grasp? :lol


I just find it funny George’s been so bad even 3ball has to downgrade him to a “pippen level” player after arguing for him for weeks.

Good catch. :lol That is one way to look at it. Another is 1-9ball and his chief poodles (both followed him to this thread--no surprise) have upgraded Pippen to George's level after spending months saying he was Draymond or Iggy. :oldlol: When you have no core beliefs or principles, such large flip flops and inconsistencies are possible.

PG is 29. The one all-NBA 1st/2nd team season he has ever had came just last year. This is peak PG...

One note: Penny came up earlier in the thread--a player MJ stains like to hype. He also finished 3rd in MVP in the year mentioned by mini-19 ball. The battle that year was for second place votes since MJ was near unanimous in first place votes. That went Robinson 54, Penny 21, Pippen 11, Payton 7 with no one else getting more than 3.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I don't remember Pippen ever being a -5BPM or negative in VORP though. Pippen was always a huge plus in those stats.

[Overdrive]

80's were a golden age for forwards similar to the 2010's

Pippen's 18 on poor efficiency wouldn't compare to Alex English or Dantley getting 30 ppg on amazing efficiency... let alone the top tier forwards like Bird and Dr. J

Dantley was a Melo while Pippen was well a Pippen. You only care for scoring anway, but I'd rather have Pippen on my team if Jordan is the first option than any SF not named Bird.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't remember Pippen ever being a -5BPM or negative in VORP though. Pippen was always a huge plus in those stats.

Yup--but remember, per MJ stains, we can't use stats (except PPG)--especially advanced stats (because they all show peak Pippen as a top 5 player). We can't use accolades--because they are "media awards." We can't use what coaches, GM's, and players thought either because, well, because. We can't use on/off (the Bulls offense struggled without Pippen--LA has a 128 oRTG with PG off in the playoffs :lol ). We can't use team records with Pippen out. We simply have to take MJ stains' word for everything: Pippen sucked but somehow an era where a scrub was a top player was a great era.

The inconsistency should be obvious: if such a bad player was a top player in that era, that era must be trash. Voters have to vote for someone and they couldn't find one forward better than Pippen in multiple* years for all-NBA--with prime Malone, prime Barkley, prime Hill, prime Kemp in the league? These are the very guys (among forwards) MJ stains tout as evidence of MJ having great comp along with Worthy.

*For little 1-9ball/ImKobe, that means more than one.

[3ball]

Round Mound posted the stats many times

Pippen routinely ranked 16th, 19th, 14th, etc in all the advanced stats every year alongside Mike

That proves his all-nba awards are undeserved and the ring count inflated his value.. 1st or 2nd team = top 5 or 10 statistically, but Pippen was always ranking 15-25 range

Ultimately, he's lucky to play alongside the goat in a 2-star format (the goat will always win the most in a 2-star format)

And btw, it's the playoffs that really matter, and pippen's playoff stats are horrible and don't compare to anyone - he's the worst playoff performer ever among "star" players

[Roundball_Rock]

Not one forward in the entire NBA worth voting for ahead of a scrub in multiple seasons. That is damning. How are we to take such a weak era seriously? Of course "Jordan" is going to beat the Suns and Jazz all by himself when the #1 options on those teams are behind his team's #2 option in all-NBA a year apart from those finals trips.

[3ball]

Not one forward in the entire NBA worth voting for ahead of a scrub in multiple seasons. That is damning. How are we to take such a weak era seriously? Of course "Jordan" is going to beat the Suns and Jazz all by himself when the #1 options on those teams are behind his team's #2 option in all-NBA a year apart from those finals trips. That is like Ray Allen being ahead of Kobe in 2009.

Pippen was 1st team only 2 or 3 times, so every year there was a SF considered better

And he's simply the worst playoff performer ever - everyone was better in the playoffs

If Pippen is truly top 30, why isn't he top 30 in most advanced stats?.. he's 130 in PER

[AirBonner]

The thing is even with Pippen having an off game he would routinely shutdown the opposing teams best player with his defense which more than made up for it. Pippen no matter what brings something to the table. George otoh brings nothing

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen was 1st team only 2 or 3 times, so every year there was a SF considered better

And he's simply the worst playoff performer ever - everyone was better in the playoffs

If Pippen is truly top 30, why isn't he top 30 in most advanced stats?.. he's 130 in PER
If LeBron truly isn't top 10, why is he top 5 in every advanced stat?.. he's 2nd in PER

[3ball]

The thing is even with Pippen having an off game he would routinely shutdown the opposing teams best player with his defense which more than made up for it. Pippen no matter what brings something to the table. George otoh brings nothing

Pippen never shut down anyone - it's a myth - everyone got their normal numbers on him... Every series.. look it up

And mj was always the primary defender on the opponent's top perimeter player, aka Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton, Miller... Otoh, Pippen only guarded Penny, who destroyed him

[3ball]

If LeBron truly isn't top 10, why is he top 5 in every advanced stat?.. he's 2nd in PER

Myself, Kenny Smith, and others have Lebron ranked 10 or 11, so that's close to his advanced stats rank

Otoh, top 30 is nowhere near where Pippen's advanced stats rank



If LeBron truly isn't top 10, why is he top 5 in every advanced stat?.. he's 2nd in PER

Games 3-5 of 96' Finals

Pippen... 11.7 on 27.5%

:yaohappy:

aka worse than PG13

[Round Mound]

Notice how Prime Pippen's stats where great without Jordan

A 2nd option that ranks this well in all of these categories without the 1st Option.

Pippen in 93-94:

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
- 55 Wins (Two Less than the year prior with 1st Option Jordan)

In the 90's what other teams 2nd option could rank this well in advanced stats while playing without their 1st option?

[Lebron23]

Myself, Kenny Smith, and others have Lebron ranked 10 or 11, so that's close to his advanced stats rank

Otoh, top 30 is nowhere near where Pippen's advanced stats rank




Games 3-5 of 96' Finals

Pippen... 11.7 on 27.5%

:yaohappy:

aka worse than PG13

You are such a horrible poster. LeBron is 1b if he wins the nba championship this year against some quality oppositions in the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

If LeBron truly isn't top 10, why is he top 5 in every advanced stat?.. he's 2nd in PER

:lol

1-9ball also doesn't understand all-NBA is on a F/G/C basis. For most of the 90's it was two PF's taking both first team F spots. When I say "leading vote getter" that means #1, first, not the second guy at forward. 1-9ball and IMKobe lack basic reading comprehension skills.

Note that Pippen being 1st team all-NBA three times is considered ho hum. Compare that to these guys:

Pippen 1st team all-NBA: 3x
Drexler/Miller/Payton/Richmond/Kemp/Johnson/Worthy 1st team all-NBA: 3x
Drexler/Miller/Richmond/Kemp/Johnson/Worthy 1st team all-NBA: 1x

So doing it 3x is chump change but all these other guys combined only did it 3x? Drexler, the first option on two finals teams. 1x. Miller, the darling of MJ stans and the "#1" on a Pacers contender. 0x (never even made a second team). Kemp, another MJ stan darling. 0x. Hell, even Ewing only did it once, another MJ stan favorite. Price, the #1 on the Cavs contender. 1x.

Damn, 1-9ball keeps showing how weak MJ's era was when a bum like Pippen could do it 3x but all these other "great" players couldn't! If Pippen would be Draymond or Iggy in today's league, what would these guys be?


Notice how Prime Pippen's stats where great without Jordan


Yup. Hmmm...I wonder why?


In the 90's what other teams 2nd option could rank this well in advanced stats while playing without their 1st option?

https://media.giphy.com/media/dVvB1VNNruS873qqQk/giphy.gif

[MrFonzworth]

OP's mother is a slut whore.

Can confirm

[3ball]

Notice how Prime Pippen's stats where great without Jordan

A 2nd option that ranks this well in all of these categories without the 1st Option.

Pippen in 93-94:

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
- 55 Wins (Two Less than the year prior with 1st Option Jordan)

In the 90's what other teams 2nd option could rank this well in advanced stats while playing without their 1st option?

DeMar DeRozan won 60 with the Raptors.. Marc Gasol won 55 with the Grizzlies and dpoy... It's nothing - Pippen is on the same level as these guys (Gasol, DeRozan)

So that's the point - tons of guys can match pippen's 94' regular season, while EVERYONE was better in the playoffs - Pippen was a bad playoff performer... you dare not post pippen's stats for the playoffs - the guy was horrible (the current Paul George level was standard for Pippen)

Ultimately, you're trying to use a one-off regular season to comment on pippen's entire career, when many guys have regular seasons like that.. And pippen's overall advanced stats rank over 100 all-time... Nowhere near top 30.. infact, his stats were barely top 20 (in the league) for nearly his entire career

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree Pippen sucks. Therefore, MJ's era sucked and we can't take those rangz and 5 MVP's seriously. As many MJ stains often note, Pippen=Draymond or Iggy in today's tough era of basketball. Today's rings have to be worth a lot more since 90's MVP candidates are 4th options in this era since there is so much more talent in this era than the weak 90's.

The question is how much of a "weak era tax" should we apply to MJ? Half credit for the 6 rangz?

[3ball]

I agree Pippen sucks. Therefore, MJ's era sucked and we can't take those rangz and 5 MVP's seriously. As many MJ stains often note, Pippen=Draymond or Iggy in today's tough era of basketball. Today's rings have to be worth a lot more since 90's MVP candidates are 4th options in this era since there is so much more talent in this era than the weak 90's.

The question is how much of a "weak era tax" should we apply to MJ? Half credit for the 6 rangz?

Pippen sucks = era sucks?

:facepalm:

Is it kindergarten logic day or something??

MJ won 6 with Potty Pippen because the goat wins with anyone in a 2-star format.. Orlando Woolridge was just unlucky to play with MJ when many HOF's were required to win the conference (the no parity 80's/top heavy conferences)

[Nashty]

Who cares for 90s, weak ass era, Allen Crabbe would win 10 MVPs and 10 FMVPs playing against these plumbers from the 90s.

[Kblaze8855]

No one's saying that Pippen sucked


The person who made this topic says it all the time....and believes it genuinely. Also believes Steph Curry couldn’t make the nba in the 70s.....while you and many like you stay acting like he’s some reasonable person.

[SATAN]

Hard for Pippen to shoot more when MJ is hogging the shit out of the ball all game. Terrible thread.

[Lebron23]

Hard for Pippen to shoot more when MJ is hogging the shit out of the ball all game. Terrible thread.

Jordan got a taste of his own medicine when he played with a ballhog like Jerry Stackhouse.

[Nashty]

Why are we talking about stats from these players from 90s, we should be debating which one of them can replace a broken water heater in less time.

[3ball]

Hard for Pippen to shoot more when MJ is hogging the shit out of the ball all game. Terrible thread.

How can Pippen shoot more when he's a poor shooter and can't iso?

pippen got FLOW points... There's only so many of those per game

We saw Pippen's peak capacity - 22.0 and 5.6 apg.. that's less raw production than his high alongside MJ (21.0 and 7.0)

21-22 with 6 apg was pippen's peak capability... So that's equivalent peak to your typical 1-2 time all-star

[AirBonner]

Madonna preferred Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

Madonna preferred Pippen

Oh oh--you are going to get SamuraiSwish/Coach/PoutinPippen/etc. (same guy) rushing to defend MJ's "D" again. :lol

[FromDowntown]

How weak was MJ's era if a scrub (as 1-9 ball and other MJ stains remind us daily) was placing 3rd in MVP and taking first and second place votes from peak Hakeem and peak Robinson (George has never gotten a first or second place vote in his career--Pippen did it multiple times) and was 94-68 ahead of prime Malone (MJ's biggest finals comp, right? :oldlol: ) and further still over prime Barkley (MJ's second biggest finals comp?) in all-NBA? :lol

I have MJ 2nd all-time but maybe I have to reconsider it based on the information from his fans about how he played in such a weak era. Imagine LeBron in an era where Draymond was a superstar/MVP candidate/1st team all-NBA lead vote getter/etc. Instead Draymond is a 3rd/4th option in today's era.

DAGGER. HEART.

R.I.P. op

[ImKobe]

Notice how Prime Pippen's stats where great without Jordan

A 2nd option that ranks this well in all of these categories without the 1st Option.

Pippen in 93-94:

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
- 55 Wins (Two Less than the year prior with 1st Option Jordan)

In the 90's what other teams 2nd option could rank this well in advanced stats while playing without their 1st option?

Drexler before Hakeem? Penny without Shaq? D-Rob before Duncan? Kevin Johnson before Barkley? Heck, D-Rob led the league in DRTG, WS/48 & DBPM playing with Duncan when they won the title in '99.. Pippen was top 3 in +/- and top 4 in PER and top 5 in a bunch of these stats because the best player in the league retired, of course he moves up a spot in these rankings. What did he do once the Bulls ran into the Knicks again in the Playoffs?

Why are we acting as if Pippen's the only great 2nd option of the 90s? He averaged a few more points a game without Jordan but then wilted against the Knicks after putting up elite numbers against them as a 2nd option the year before. The Bulls were headed nowhere in '95 while Pippen was begging for MJ to return live on TV..

[FromDowntown]

What about this

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

You always get beet red and put your in your lap when this gets posted. Don't be shy

[Roundball_Rock]

What about this

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

You always get beet red and put your in your lap when this gets posted. Don't be shy

It is funny OP picked George and not Wade, another player who peaked at 3rd in MVP (same as Pippen: one 3rd, one 5th--except Wade was never top 5 alongside LeBron while Pippen was alongside MJ). This is what makes the insecurity of 1-9ball and co. worse: Wade is long gone but here is LeBron yet again contending for a chip in 2020/year 17.

Expect more meltdowns over Pippen as the playoffs continue and the Lakers advance. :lol

[TheCorporation]

It is funny OP picked George and not Wade, another player who peaked at 3rd in MVP (same as Pippen: one 3rd, one 5th--except Wade was never top 5 alongside LeBron while Pippen was alongside MJ). This is what will make the insecurity of 1-9ball and co. worse: Wade is long gone but here is LeBron yet again contending for a chip in 2020/year 17.

Expect more meltdowns over Pippen as the playoffs continue and the Lakers advance. :lol

If the Lakers win a chip this year and LeBron gets to 7300 points I think 1-9ball's head will explode :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

If the Lakers win a chip this year and LeBron gets to 7300 points I think 1-9ball's head will explode :lol

:lol

It will be amusing to watch the rolling meltdown.

What will tomorrow's daily insecure Pippen thread from 1-9ball be about?

[HoopsNY]

No one's saying that Pippen sucked, I do find issue in people using some random media member's MVP vote as an argument to put one player over another. And yes, Pippen's era was weak for elite forwards compared to 2010-20.

Dominique, Chambers, Worthy, Hill, Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Rodman, Mullin, Bird, KG, Duncan, Coleman is weak for elite forwards? You say compared to 2010-20, but is it, really?


He wasn't going up against Lebron/Kawhi/KD/Giannis/AD to make those 1st teams and the Centers only had one slot on that team and I've seen you compare Pippen's All-NBA 1st teams to Centers in his era to argue him over them as well.

I'll give you Giannis and KD. But you would have to swap Pippen and another elite 3 or 4 to make the comparison even, since the discussion is about facing competition. In addition, AD played a lot of games as a center. That leaves KD, Giannis, and Kawhi or LeBron.

Pippen from 1996-2003 was also dealing with a prime Tim Duncan ('97-'03) and KG ('96-03). And from '87-'99, you had prime Charles Barkley and Karl Malone.


With Barkley declining/getting injured, there was no real competition for that 2nd F spot on the first team before Grant Hill, who made 2nd team his rookie year and was 1st Team over Pippen by his 2nd year '97. Chuck was missing too many games, though I do think he still should have been 1st team over Pippen in '95 with the Suns winning 59 games despite KJ missing almost half the season. Bulls were 3 games above .500 and didn't win more than 3 in a row all year prior to MJ's return.

The same could be said with 2010 onward. At best, Tim Duncan finished All-NBA 1st team once and KG didn't have any 1st team selections. Players decline, new players emerge. It happens.

[HoopsNY]

I just find it funny George’s been so bad even 3ball has to downgrade him to a “pippen level” player after arguing for him for weeks.

I like pippen but still would put peak George ahead of him. George better put up like 50 tomorrow to make up for these games

We had this conversation in another thread about Paul George's playoff woes, particularly in elimination games. I'm also not sold on George being as great of a defender as he's always mentioned as being. George seems to get torched quite a bit by his opponents in the playoffs. So much for being "Playoff P." :confusedshrug:

George can put up 50. Hell, Jamal Murray and Donovan Mitchell just did in a single game. Scoring is out of control and the defense we're seeing is God awful. Stats are obviously inflated.

[HoopsNY]

yea i've found that funny.

When paul george throws up a dud... 15 points or whatever, we all lambast him but that was pippens baseline. Hence nobody really batted an eye.

PG13's expectations are simply way higher.

Of course they're higher. Guys are dropping 50 points a night while being unguarded. Compare that to a Pistons, Knicks, Sonics, or Miami defense that Pippen saw in the playoffs. Have you been watching the bubble? It looks like a pickup game.

[TheCorporation]

We had this conversation in another thread about Paul George's playoff woes, particularly in elimination games. I'm also not sold on George being as great of a defender as he's always mentioned as being. George seems to get torched quite a bit by his opponents in the playoffs. So much for being "Playoff P." :confusedshrug:

George can put up 50. Hell, Jamal Murray and Donovan Mitchell just did in a single game. Scoring is out of control and the defense we're seeing is God awful. Stats are obviously inflated.

SKILL goes up, scoring goes up

Imagine that.

No more auto mechanics in the league.

[HoopsNY]

SKILL goes up, scoring goes up

Imagine that.

No more auto mechanics in the league.

Or rules change allowing for growth in certain areas of the game while having a decline in others. The point is that tpols took a shot at Pippen scoring 15 in a game on bad efficiency and compared it to George doing the same, as if the pace of play and perimeter play in both eras were the same.

[Roundball_Rock]

Or rules change allowing for growth in certain areas of the game while having a decline in others. The point is that tpols took a shot at Pippen scoring 15 in a game on bad efficiency and compared it to George doing the same, as if the pace of play and perimeter play in both eras were the same.

Think about it: the Clippers and Mavs are both averaging 124 PPG. How dumb do you have to be to compare that to series where teams were at 90-100 (or in the case of the Jazz, 80)? The equivalent of, say, 97' Pippen as a share of the Clippers' scoring would be 27 PPG.

Tpols consistently provides the dumbest analysis on ISH.

[ImKobe]

Dominique, Chambers, Worthy, Hill, Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Rodman, Mullin, Bird, KG, Duncan, Coleman is weak for elite forwards? You say compared to 2010-20, but is it, really?



I'll give you Giannis and KD. But you would have to swap Pippen and another elite 3 or 4 to make the comparison even, since the discussion is about facing competition. In addition, AD played a lot of games as a center. That leaves KD, Giannis, and Kawhi or LeBron.

Pippen from 1996-2003 was also dealing with a prime Tim Duncan ('97-'03) and KG ('96-03). And from '87-'99, you had prime Charles Barkley and Karl Malone.



The same could be said with 2010 onward. At best, Tim Duncan finished All-NBA 1st team once and KG didn't have any 1st team selections. Players decline, new players emerge. It happens.

Nique, Bird & Worthy werent in their primes in the 90s, Duncan and Hill were drafted in the mid-90s. Yes, it's weak compared to what we have now. I love the 90s but my point was that Pippen didn't really have that much competition to make 1st Team All-NBA in the seasons that he did, I do think we have more great forwards now than in the 90s, which was mostly dominated by big men at the 5.

[ImKobe]

Think about it: the Clippers and Mavs are both averaging 124 PPG. How dumb do you have to be to compare that to series where teams were at 90-100 (or in the case of the Jazz, 80)? The equivalent of, say, 97' Pippen as a share of the Clippers' scoring would be 27 PPG.

Tpols consistently provides the dumbest analysis on ISH.

That's not how it works. Pippen doesn't automatically become a better scorer because you put him in this era. This season is also an aberration because of the pandemic and guys playing in the bubble. Pippen would be a 2nd/3rd option next to Kawhi like PG.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Roundball Rock enters

3ball leaves with tail tucked between legs


name a more iconic duo :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Nique, Bird & Worthy werent in their primes in the 90s, Duncan and Hill were drafted in the mid-90s. Yes, it's weak compared to what we have now. I love the 90s but my point was that Pippen didn't really have that much competition to make 1st Team All-NBA in the seasons that he did, I do think we have more great forwards now than in the 90s, which was mostly dominated by big men at the 5.

You're conveniently ignoring when Pippen came into the league and mostly focusing on his prime/peak years. It doesn't work that way. Pippen was an all-star in 1989-90 for example, before the chip years. Nevertheless, take a look at Nique, Bird, and Worthy in Pippen's first 5-7 years in the league.

Nique '87-'94: 28/7/3 on 47% (5x All-NBA selections)
Bird: '87-'92: 24/9/7 on 49% (2x All-NBA selections)
Worthy: '87-'92: 21/5/4 on 52% (2x All-NBA selections, 1x FMVP)

Hill came into the league in the 1994-95 season. So Hill played in the same league with Pippen where Pippen was still solid for at least 5 years. Duncan came into the league in '97 and was All-NBA from the start.

[HoopsNY]

That's not how it works. Pippen doesn't automatically become a better scorer because you put him in this era.

Why not? If pace increases and perimeter defense decreases, why wouldn't Pippen's scoring see some improvement?


This season is also an aberration because of the pandemic and guys playing in the bubble. Pippen would be a 2nd/3rd option next to Kawhi like PG.

The last 4 seasons have seen the highest pace of play or scoring in NBA history. What we've seen with the bubble isn't an isolated case. Scoring has been up for years.

[ImKobe]

You're conveniently ignoring when Pippen came into the league and mostly focusing on his prime/peak years. It doesn't work that way. Pippen was an all-star in 1989-90 for example, before the chip years. Nevertheless, take a look at Nique, Bird, and Worthy in Pippen's first 5-7 years in the league.

Nique '87-'94: 28/7/3 on 47% (5x All-NBA selections)
Bird: '87-'92: 24/9/7 on 49% (2x All-NBA selections)
Worthy: '87-'92: 21/5/4 on 52% (2x All-NBA selections, 1x FMVP)

Hill came into the league in the 1994-95 season. So Hill played in the same league with Pippen where Pippen was still solid for at least 5 years. Duncan came into the league in '97 and was All-NBA from the start.

I'm not, the initial argument was about Pippen's All-NBA 1st teams, how it was easier for him to make the 1st team due to less talent at the F spot in the 90s. 80s had great depth at the forward position, it wasn't great in the first 4-5 years in the 90s, but picked up when Duncan, KG & GHill became elite players. Either way, the 2010-20 era has more elite forwards than any other era. Lebron, KD & Kawhi are better than any other forward you can name from the 90s (Duncan wasn't prime Duncan yet).

It's fine, it doesn't mean that I'm trying to say the 90s were less-talented, you had MJ and the talent at the 5 destroys that of today's era, but the style of play has completely changed. Lebron, KD & Kawhi are on Bird's level.

[Roundball_Rock]

love the 90s but my point was that Pippen didn't really have that much competition to make 1st Team All-NBA in the seasons that he did,

Wow. This is a big admission: a MJ stan saying prime Malone, prime Barkley, prime Kemp (as well as prime Hill--but he isn't core to their agenda, only brought up as a prop to say Pippen wasn't the best SF of the era, and other players like 94' Wilkins, Coleman, Rodman, Webber, etc.) is weak competition at forward*.

It's a wrap: 1-9ball's own poodle is saying MJ played in a weak era, including the #1 options MJ faced in half his finals. Outpolling them. Easy to do for a scrub, which implies...

What is with this myth that all-NBA is PF/SF/C/SG/PG? It is F/F/C/G/G. Hence why LeBron and KD kept being the first team forwards in the 10's and Barkley and Malone for many years before Pippen replaced Barkley on the first team.


Why not? If pace increases and perimeter defense decreases, why wouldn't Pippen's scoring see some improvement?

*Faster pace
*Weaker defenses
*More wide open shots

The answer is it would increase the scoring for every 90's perimeter scorer--except Pippen.

Good catch: they are intellectually dishonest because you will see the same people in other threads talk about how weak defenses are today. Somehow that doesn't apply to Pippen. :lol

George is scoring 12% of his team's points. That is equivalent to scoring 11 PPG on a team scoring 90 PPG.

Further, the issue with PG isn't just scoring. He isn't impacting games positively defensively or as a playmaker. He is a big negative for them right now. That's the problem. Everyone has cold shooting (albeit he is colder than anyone since Cousy). Superstars often make it up in other areas. He certainly has the skill set to do it--but he isn't.

*A prime example of how much they hate Pippen: the very guys they tout as evidence of the 90's being great are suddenly bums to diminish Pippen. Dat 1-9 insecurity. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen didn't really have that much competition to make 1st Team All-NBA in the seasons that he did,

Prime Malone, prime Barkley. Not competition to make all-NBA. Wow. This has to be a new low, even for a MJ stain who has no actual beliefs.

[3ball]

Lebron, KD & Kawhi are better than any other forward you can name from the 90s[/B] destroys that

but the style of play has completely changed


.
^^^ and that's why today's forwards aren't better

Penny, Hill, Drexler and Kemp would average 25-30 today and be considered similar to Kawhi/KD/Lebron

Btw, Karl Malone and Barkley are on that level too... And Magic retired early, but MJ still got him in 1991

So the 90's wasn't inferior at any position, except PG

[Roundball_Rock]

Penny, Hill, Drexler and Kemp would average 25-30 today and be considered similar to Kawhi/KD/Lebron

Btw, Karl Malone and Barkley are on that level too

This is a gem. We earlier heard mini-1-9ball I, say the 90's were a weak era for forwards, which allowed a really, really, really bad player to be the leading vote getter among forwards for all-NBA. Now we are hearing the very people who were behind Pippen in voting in their primes were awesome--equal to prime LeBron, prime KD, prime Kawhi (awesome but behind a scrub!).

Furthermore, they would all be scoring more--much more--today (for reference, Kemp scored less than Pippen in his prime, Hill 2 PPG more, Drexler* 3 PPG more). Kemp would go from 18.5 PPG to 25-30 PPG; Pippen would go from 20 PPG to 20 PPG or even become Draymond or Iggy and score much less.

No beliefs whatsoever for these nuts hence the shamelessness with which they can say completely inconsistent things on a moment's notice. :lol

1-9ball has embarassed himself yet again. Watch his poodles IMKobe and tpols rush to his defense.

*Drexler was a (shooting) guard, but these ignoramuses don't know that.

[Vino24]

Lol apparently Penny and LeBron are equals

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol apparently Penny and LeBron are equals

And Shawn Kemp, who never made all-NBA 1st team during what 1-9ball's own poodle said was a weak era for forwards--so weak a bum like Pippen not only made multiple 1st teams but was the leading vote getter multiple times.

Let's recap:

*Kemp was behind Pippen when both played--every single year of their primes which included overlapping peaks.
*Pippen sucked--we get daily threads from 1-9ball, backed up by his poodles IMKobe, tpols and other MJ stains like goozeman, IG, and co.
*Kemp=LeBron.

Any sane person would conclude--if you accept the above narrative--that the logical conclusion of Kemp=LeBron is Pippen>LeBron since if Pippen sucked but Kemp sucked even more, that means Pippen was better.

So per 1-9ball, MJ was playing with a player better than LeBron as his "sidekick." Damn.

[3ball]

This is a gem. We earlier heard mini-1-9ball I, say the 90's were a weak era for forwards, which allowed a really, really, really bad player to be the leading vote getter among forwards for all-NBA. Now we are hearing the very people who were behind Pippen in voting in their primes were awesome--equal to prime LeBron, prime KD, prime Kawhi (awesome but behind a scrub!).

Furthermore, they would all be scoring more--much more--today (for reference, Kemp scored less than Pippen in his prime, Hill 2 PPG more, Drexler 3 PPG more). Kemp would go from 18.5 PPG to 25-30 PPG; Pippen would go from 20 PPG to 20 PPG or even become Draymond or Iggy and go downinto the teens.

No beliefs whatsoever for these nuts hence the shamelessness with which they can say completely inconsistent things on a moment's notice. :lol
Upon reflection, I realized the 90's forwards weren't inferior at all - the numbers of Penny, Kemp, Hill and Drexler were reduced by playing a different game entirely (a tougher format)

Their stats actually went to guys like Barkley and Malone, who played inside - but in today's game, Penny would average 28+ easily, while Malone would get reduced

As for Pippen, he only got flow points and could never dominate like all those guys so who cares - a flow scorer can't be one of today's dominant perimeter guys that we see putting up big numbers

For example, when Kemp was dominating the 96' Finals, it wasn't flow points.. it was Kemp making moves and destroying rodman - this ability is required to dominate on any era.. Pippen doesn't have this, so he can't dominate any era

[Vino24]

And Shawn Kemp, who never made all-NBA 1st team during what 1-9ball's own poodle said was a weak era for forwards--so weak a bum like Pippen not only made multiple 1st teams but was the leading vote getter multiple times.

Let's recap:

*Kemp was behind Pippen when both played--every single year of their primes which included overlapping peaks.
*Pippen sucked--we get daily threads from 1-9ball, backed up by his poodles IMKobe, tpols and other MJ stains like goozeman, IG, and co.
*Kemp=LeBron.

Any sane person would conclude--if you accept the above narrative--that the logical conclusion of Kemp=LeBron is Pippen>LeBron since if Pippen sucked but Kemp sucked even more, that means Pippen was better.

So per 1-9ball, MJ was playing with a player better than LeBron as his "sidekick." Damn.

Bingo well said. Also who was the 2nd best sg of that era after MJ? I seem to remember sg having shit for players too

[Roundball_Rock]

Bingo well said. Also who was the 2nd best sg of that era after MJ? I seem to remember sg having shit for players too

Drexler was the best. Richmond, Dumars, Miller the other HOF SG's (for reference--these four HOF'ers combined to make 1 all-NBA first team--yet a scrub like Pippen could make 3 in the same era?). The key thing was Drexler, Richmond were in the WC. MJ never played Richmond in the playoffs and faced Drexler only once. Miller was in the East but somehow met the Bulls only once (compare that to the Knicks who ran into the Bulls in 91', 92', 93', 94', 96' or Cavs who did in 89', 92', 93', 94').

That left Dumars as the HOF comp MJ faced multiple times at SG and we know Dumars' teams won 3 out of those 4 series.

Another note on Kemp, the Bulls were unwilling to accept Kemp straight up for Pippen. The Bulls wanted Kemp, Ricky Pierce, and a swap of draft picks (Seattle had the much higher draft pick) with the goal of using that pick to draft Eddie Jones. In other words, the idea was Kemp/Pierce/Jones for Pippen/a low 20's pick.

Why? Both Krause and Seattle's GM (Whitsitt) at the time considered Pippen so good that he was nearly as good as MJ (both made public statements to that effect--go cry into your Space Jam towels). These aren't MJ stains posting on the internet 25 years later who are insecure about MJ never winning without Pippen (which almost no one holds against him). Actual, successful GM's paid to evaluate players and to get this stuff right. Both concluded Pippen>>>Kemp and now we are hearing Kemp=LeBron while Pippen sucked. :lol

[3ball]

Bingo well said. Also who was the 2nd best sg of that era after MJ? I seem to remember sg having shit for players too

90's forwards weren't inferior at all - the numbers of Penny, Kemp, Hill and Drexler were reduced by playing a different game entirely (a tougher format).. but the lack of spacing actually made them better at making shots ON defenders - they were vastly superior shot-maker and tougher in general.. they would have a field day today's spaced-out and open-shot fest

In the 90's, the stats of perimeter players went to guys like Barkley and Malone, who played inside and therefore achieved big numbers - but in today's game, Penny would average 28+ easily, while Malone would get reduced

As for Pippen, he only got flow points and could never dominate like all those guys so who cares - a flow scorer can't be one of today's dominant perimeter guys that we see putting up big numbers

For example, when Kemp was dominating the 96' Finals, it wasn't flow points.. it was Kemp making moves and destroying rodman - this ability is required to dominate on any era.. Pippen doesn't have this, so he can't dominate any era

[Vino24]

90's forwards weren't inferior at all - the numbers of Penny, Kemp, Hill and Drexler were reduced by playing a different game entirely (a tougher format).. the lack of spacing made these guys better at making shots ON defenders - simply vastly superior shot-maker and tougher in general.. they would have a field day today's spaced-out and open-shot fest

In the 90's, the stats of perimeter players went to guys like Barkley and Malone, who played inside and therefore achieved big numbers - but in today's game, Penny would average 28+ easily, while Malone would get reduced

As for Pippen, he only got flow points and could never dominate like all those guys so who cares - a flow scorer can't be one of today's dominant perimeter guys that we see putting up big numbers

For example, when Kemp was dominating the 96' Finals, it wasn't flow points.. it was Kemp making moves and destroying rodman - this ability is required to dominate on any era.. Pippen doesn't have this, so he can't dominate any era
It was because Kemp had similar help (a Pippen) as MJ which made things a little competitive

[3ball]

It was because Kemp had similar help (a Pippen) as MJ which made things a little competitive

Pippen can't make moves and destroy a defender/dominate - he only gets flow points, while Kawhi, Penny, KD, MJ, Lebron, Kemp, Hill - they can all get 25+ by scoring ON their defender

So Pippen is on a lower level entirely, aka flow points, aka Draymond or souped-up Andre Roberson caliber

[Roundball_Rock]

Kemp was the second option. MJ stains like to hype Kemp up because they are insecure about Payton locking down MJ in that series.

Kemp was viewed as a limited player who couldn't score in the half-court (the opposite of what you were just told :lol ).


league observers said it would benefit Seattle more right now because Pippen is so superior in ability to Kemp. But the deal would prevent the Bulls from stumbling like former champions Boston, Los Angeles and Detroit.

Kemp is regarded as primarily a Western Conference open-court player who fares badly in half-court play because he has no post-up game and doesn't like physical play-something of a Dominique Wilkins with less overall ability at power forward.

Kemp was an 18.5 PPG scorer for his prime (1993-1998) who never made all-NBA 1st team. He got exposed badly as a #1 option without Payton there in Cleveland--his efficiency fell off a cliff. These are facts, no matter how much deception is thrown out there.

[Nashty]

Wow, so Kemp was basically a poor man's Derick Jones Jr. and still outplayed Jordan in the Finals. Yikes

[Roundball_Rock]

Kemp had a good series scoring wise--although it should be noted that scoring was 23 PPG--what MJ stains would criticize Pippen for doing. :lol However, Kemp got raped on the boards by Rodman and that was arguably the reason the Sonics lost. Some people thought Rodman should have won FMVP. That happened on Kemps' watch.

It also was Kemp's best playoff run. Notice MJ stains never talk about the rest of his career (which included a terrible series in 94' which led to their 63 win team losing to a 42 win team in the first round--the first time an 8 seed beat a 1 seed).

[3ball]

Kemp was the second option. MJ stains like to hype Kemp up because they are insecure about Payton locking down MJ in that series.

Kemp was viewed as a limited player who couldn't score in the half-court (the opposite of what you were just told :lol ).



Kemp was an 18.5 PPG scorer for his prime (1993-1998) who never made all-NBA 1st team. He got exposed badly as a #1 option without Payton there in Cleveland--his efficiency fell off a cliff. These are facts, no matter how much deception is thrown out there.


You didn't watch back then or were clueless when you did

Kemp was a great halfcourt player with the smoothest moves in the league... And incredible strength.. guys bounced off him inside

Newsflash - the 96' Finals didn't have transition and was a half court defensive series.. Kemp completely dominated with great efficiency, while Pippen was literally Paul George (11 on 27% for games 3-5... 15 on 34% overall)

Kemp > Pippen.. which is why. Krause wanted to trade Pippen for him...

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen and Kemp had their primes overlap from 1993-1998. Both were forwards so we can see how all-NBA voters viewed them.

1993: Pippen 3rd team
1994: Pippen 1st team, Kemp 2nd team
1995: Pippen 1st team, Kemp 2nd team
1996: Pippen 1st team, Kemp 2nd team
1997: Pippen 2nd team
1998: Pippen 3rd team (missed half the season)

Notice a trend? :oldlol:

[3ball]

Pippen and Kemp had their primes overlap from 1993-1998. Both were forwards so we can see how all-NBA voters viewed them.

1993: Pippen 3rd team
1994: Pippen 1st team, Kemp 2nd team
1995: Pippen 1st team, Kemp 2nd team
1996: Pippen 1st team, Kemp 2nd team
1997: Pippen 2nd team
1998: Pippen 3rd team (missed half the season)

Notice a trend? :oldlol:

96' Pippen... 1st team all-nba... 15 on 34% in Finals
96' Kemp.... 2nd team all-nba... 23 on 55% in Finals

^^^ Kemp proved that pippen didn't deserve 1st team, similar to how Hakeem showed that DR didn't deserve MVP

If Kemp was MJ's sidekick, then he'd have all the accolades.... being associated with MJ elevated Pippen

Pippen wouldn't be all-nba without that association.... or if the accolades were based on playoff performance

These are just facts

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:

One quick fact check: Pippen was all-NBA 1st team both years of his prime without MJ. Kemp never made all-NBA without Payton, not even a third team. It is obvious which player was dependent and which player was not when you look at them detached from the other player. Pippen thrived and got better; Kemp crashed and burned.

We can't engage with dishonest posters like you and your poodles (this is what you troll for: attention. If you get ignored, you will slither away)--but when you try to deceive younger posters you will be held accountable and the facts will be shown. Go run to your betas and see if they can help you.

[3ball]

:roll:

We can't engage with dishonest posters like you and your poodles (this is what you troll for: attention)--but when you try to deceive younger posters you will be hold accountable and the facts will be shown.

You've opted to complain about things that don't affect the argument (tenths of a point), so 3ball wins due to unrefuted substance

The facts are on Kemp's side here.. And Krause knew that pippen was trash - aka everything I'm saying about him - that's why the bulls tried to get rid of him.. it's funny though because Seattle fans were like "we ain't giving up the Reign Man for that bum"... That's literally what the entire city of Seattle said

[Roundball_Rock]

1-9.

[3ball]

1-9.
what happens to the 19' Lakers if they made the 8 seed and faced KD Warriors?... Surely lebron's 8 seeds get beat by record amount worse than his high seeds did

So 1-9 happened because MJ carried lottery teams to 8 seeds and the 8 vs 1 matchup

Otoh, lebron failed to carry lottery teams to the 8 seed in 04', 05', and 19' - he only made the playoffs with good teams/high seeds and easy 1st round matchups

[RRR3]

Roundball eviscerating 3braincells as usual.

[3ball]

Roundball eviscerating 3braincells as usual.

No, I got him again

He said that 96' Pippen was 1st team and Kemp only 2nd team, so therefore Pippen was better.. but then he couldn't respond when I showed their Finals stats, where Pippen proved unworthy like Robinson in 95'

And that was it.... He started whining and stopped debating... Victory for 3ball

[Vino24]

Op getting his daily beat down holy shit lmao

[3ball]

Op getting his daily beat down holy shit lmao
No Oscar for you

[Roundball_Rock]

:hammertime: :pimp:

[3ball]

:hammertime: :pimp:

^^^ ghey acting

Thread Cliffs - Pippen played like Paul George currently is all the time and for entire series

[RRR3]

Thread cliffs-Roundball exposing 3ball as a retard once again.

[3ball]

Thread cliffs-Roundball exposing 3ball as a retard once again.


You can't save Roundball

I beat him and he quit

You act like its the first time... :kobe:

Here's the post that ended him:





96' Pippen... 1st team all-nba... 15 on 34% in Finals
96' Kemp.... 2nd team all-nba... 23 on 55% in Finals

^^^ Kemp proved that pippen didn't deserve 1st team, similar to how Hakeem showed that DR didn't deserve MVP

If Kemp was MJ's sidekick, then he'd have all the accolades.... being associated with MJ elevated Pippen

Pippen wouldn't be all-nba without that association.... or if the accolades were based on playoff performance

These are just facts

[RRR3]

Roundball, you should change your user title to “The 3braincells slayer”

[3ball]

Roundball, you should change your user title to “The 3braincells slayer”

RRR3 the 3ball ******ger

You're probably a Mayweather hater

[RRR3]

What the hell is this dude babbling about?

[Vino24]

Autisticball

[Roundball_Rock]

Thread cliffs-Roundball exposing 3ball as a retard once again.

:rockon:


Roundball, you should change your user title to “The 3braincells slayer”

Hah--doesn't TheCorporation already have that? How bad is 1-9ball that he warrants multiple posters with such a user title? :lol


RRR3 the 3ball ******ger

You're probably a Mayweather hater

What does Mayweather have to do with MJ? :confusedshrug:

[Gohan]

I kind of like 3 ball he makes the board interesting

[HoopsNY]

I'm not, the initial argument was about Pippen's All-NBA 1st teams, how it was easier for him to make the 1st team due to less talent at the F spot in the 90s. 80s had great depth at the forward position, it wasn't great in the first 4-5 years in the 90s, but picked up when Duncan, KG & GHill became elite players. Either way, the 2010-20 era has more elite forwards than any other era. Lebron, KD & Kawhi are better than any other forward you can name from the 90s (Duncan wasn't prime Duncan yet).

It's fine, it doesn't mean that I'm trying to say the 90s were less-talented, you had MJ and the talent at the 5 destroys that of today's era, but the style of play has completely changed. Lebron, KD & Kawhi are on Bird's level.

So Malone and Barkley weren't elite, all-time great, HOF, All-NBA 1st team forwards as well? As I said before, you had guys like Nique, Mullin, Malone, Barkley, and then Hill, Duncan, and KG came along.

And you can't deduct Pippen from the equation and simply insert LeBron, KD, and Kawhi. You would have to delete one of them from the equation since we're talking about competition. So it's more like, KD, Kawhi, Giannis, etc.

[Roundball_Rock]

So Malone and Barkley weren't elite, all-time great, HOF, All-NBA 1st team forwards as well? As I said before, you had guys like Nique, Mullin, Malone, Barkley, and then Hill, Duncan, and KG came along.


Plus others like Webber, Kemp, Coleman too.

What makes this amusing is in any other context mini-3ball would be talking about how awesome 90's stars (except Pippen of course) were--particularly Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Worthy among forwards since they were star forwards on opposing finals team. Now Malone and Barkley--consensus top 15-20 all-time guys who are presented as Exhibit A and Exhibit B of how tough MJ's comp was--were bums. :lol

Just the other day he was hyping Mark Price as being the tough comp MJ beat as the Cavs' #1, a player far less accomplished than Pippen. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Plus others like Webber, Kemp, Coleman too.

What makes this amusing is in any other context mini-3ball would be talking about how awesome 90's stars (except Pippen of course) were--particularly Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Worthy among forwards since they were star forwards on opposing finals team. Now Malone and Barkley--consensus top 15-20 all-time guys who are presented as Exhibit A and Exhibit B of how tough MJ's comp was--were bums. :lol

Just the other day he was hyping Mark Price as being the tough comp MJ beat as the Cavs' #1, a player far less accomplished than Pippen. :oldlol:
That's the thing... I view Pippen as another Kemp-Penny-Worthy-Mchale caliber player, actually a bit behind them perhaps.. certainly NOT ahead of them - they're all on the same level

Except Pippen played with Mike............. in a 2-star format....... And the rest is history....

Replace Pippen with Kemp and it's 6+ rings but without some of the close series that pippen's poor play often caused

[FromDowntown]

7,012 broke him :lol

Seething Fuming each day :lol

LBJ > MJ

get over it

Roundball > 2ball

[Vino24]

That's the thing... I view Pippen as another Kemp-Penny-Worthy-Mchale caliber player, actually a bit behind them perhaps.. certainly NOT ahead of them - they're all on the same level

Except Pippen played with Mike............. in a 2-star format....... And the rest is history....

Replace Pippen with Kemp and it's 6+ rings but without some of the close series that pippen's poor play often caused
Replace MJ with Pete Myers and they still win 50+ games

[Roundball_Rock]

The funny thing about them always bringing up "Pippen played with MJ!" is if Pippen played on any other team we know every MJ stain would be telling us how great Pippen was and how tough it was for MJ to beat Pippen's team because Pippen was so great, how awesome the 90's were with a legend like Pippen in it, how Pippen would be dominating if he played in today's league, etc. :lol

[Shooter]

Replace MJ with Pete Myers and they still win 50+ games

Wow. Replace MJ with Klay and they probably win it all in 1994. MJ = Klay Thompson impact

[Shooter]

The funny thing about them always bringing up "Pippen played with MJ!" is if Pippen played on any other team we know every MJ stain would be telling us how great Pippen was and how tough it was for MJ to beat Pippen's team because Pippen was so great, how awesome the 90's were with a legend like Pippen in it, how Pippen would be dominating if he played in today's league, etc. :lol

100% And if in this scenario his teammate was now Penny Hardaway or John Stockton we'd be hearing about how they're just a stupid piece of shit player that couldn't score (even though MJ takes 35% of the shots and doesn't let his teammates score by default).

[Smoke117]

We need to throw 3ball and Roundball in 8x8 room and have them fight to death. After the victor is determined we need to then pour in some poison gas because they are both nutcases that need to be eliminated, regardless. The sport should be fun, though.

[3ball]

We need to throw 3ball and Roundball in 8x8 room and have them fight to death. After the victor is determined we need to then pour in some poison gas because they are both nutcases that need to be eliminated, regardless. The sport should be fun, though.

Lol

I'm down

Roundball is a fun opponent.. and one of the better posters

But it looks like this thread is a blowout in 3ball's favor, especially after i update the OP's numbers for Paul George's monster game 5

[Roundball_Rock]

100% And if in this scenario his teammate was now Penny Hardaway or John Stockton we'd be hearing about how they're just a stupid piece of shit player that couldn't score

Yup. :lol The agenda is amusingly transparent.

[3ball]

Yup. :lol The agenda is amusingly transparent.

Penny wouldn't get outplayed in 42% of the series he played (either outscored, or matched with better efficiency)..

Penny wouldn't get outplayed by X-man and cause an unexpected 7 game series

Penny wouldn't average 17 on 41% in playoffs for the entire 2nd three-peat, or produce less than 14' Wade in the 93' Playoffs, or be horrible from 88-90' (cost MJ a 3-peat)

And almost no one beats good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from a a sidekick... MJ did it 5 times with Pippen, whereas Penny wouldn't make MJ do that..

I could go on and on... Pippen and Gasol are the only 2nd options with 2+ rings that don't have a FMVP or average 25-30... Penny would surely accomplish this in 6 Finals appearances

And the same goes for Kemp, Coleman and others

[Smoke117]

That's the thing... I view Pippen as another Kemp-Penny-Worthy-Mchale caliber player, actually a bit behind them perhaps.. certainly NOT ahead of them - they're all on the same level

Except Pippen played with Mike............. in a 2-star format....... And the rest is history....

Replace Pippen with Kemp and it's 6+ rings but without some of the close series that pippen's poor play often caused

Pippen is unanimously considered top 30...how much does that infuriate you? It’s just bizarre how sickly you are obsessed with Jordan that you’ve literally spent this entire year, thus far, trying to bury him. I’m honestly fascinated by the derangement. That anyone could be so obsessed is frightening and hilarious at the same time.

[Roundball_Rock]

The issue is he is hardly alone. A lot of the premises in his posts are accepted now, even by people pushing back. For instance, "I know Pippen sucked on offense, but he was a great defender." This would count as a pro-Pippen post on ISH these days.

No one said Pippen sucked on offense in the 90's. His entire reputation was being good/great at everything, hence why he was considered the best all-around player at his peak. Yet the narrative on ISH is completely warped.

It is clear cut revisionism with 1-9ball, who didn't join ISH until 2014, the tip of the spear but hardly alone (no single poster could have that kind of impact...). The question is: should it simply be left unchallenged? It has gained traction over time, even with minimal pushback. When I started on ISH even MJ stans would say Pippen was top 40ish all-time, top 5 at his peak, great (but overrated to them), etc. Not so today.

I would be fine with a moratorium on Pippen posts on ISH. I signed up to talk basketball, not what happened 25 years ago all the time--but so long as people like 1-9ball, IMKobe and the other dozen plus tools are going to push BS, the natural tendency is to respond in some fashion. If that is "nutty", oh well.

Part of what MJ stans understand is they vastly outnumber Pippen fans. LeBron fans are temporarily Pippen allies but LeBron fans generally are too young to have watched in the 90's, know what happened and how players were perceived then, etc. So 20 people saying one thing is going to overwhelm 2 people in opposition.

[Smoke117]

The issue is he is hardly alone. A lot of the premises in his posts are accepted now, even by people pushing back. For instance, "I know Pippen sucked on offense, but he was a great defender." This would count as a pro-Pippen post on ISH these days.

No one said Pippen sucked on offense in the 90's. His entire reputation was being good/great at everything, hence why he was considered the best all-around player at his peak. Yet the narrative on ISH is completely warped.

It is clear cut revisionism with 1-9ball, who didn't join ISH until 2014, the tip of the spear but hardly alone (no single poster could have that kind of impact...). The question is: should it simply be left unchallenged? It has gained traction over time, even with minimal pushback. When I started on ISH even MJ stans would say Pippen was top 40ish all-time, top 5 at his peak, great (but overrated to them), etc. Not so today.

I would be fine with a moratorium on Pippen posts on ISH. I signed up to talk basketball, not what happened 25 years ago all the time--but so long as people like 1-9ball, IMKobe and the other dozen plus tools are going to push BS, the natural tendency is to respond in some fashion. If that is "nutty", oh well.

I'm convinced you are just as mad as he is now. Scottie is my favorite player of all time, but you been arguing with this fool for 6 months now! What the fuuuukkk? Arguing about the same goddamn shit for 6 months every day. You're both crazy as hell. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

In other words, Pippen fans should unilaterally disarm. :confusedshrug: The MJ stan response will be to stop the Pippen hate too, right? 3ball is a cop out--anyone can read any Pippen thread before 2014, which is when 1-9ball joined ISH.

Why be on a sports message forum where you can talk about any subject--except your favorite player?

I am not responding seriously to him. He is being mocked throughout the thread. 95% of my responses here are to other people, not 1-9ball. If, say, Shooter responds--that should be ignored too because it is loosely related to 1-9ball? The field should be completely vacated to Team MJ? If he is posting daily threads, people will go in them--like you just did.

(Not sure about the 6 months thing--I hadn't posted for years circa February 2020.)

[Roundball_Rock]

If you have a better approach to put forward, I'm all ears.

All I know is I didn't post for several years. I came back and saw MJ stans are not only pushing the Pippen hate like they did my entire previous time on ISH, they have become a lot more extreme as time goes by and the frequency is a lot greater. If it was just one poster or two or three it would be one thing but it's Team MJ practically whole hog, with a handful of exceptions like Kuniva and Phoenix.

[Vino24]

If you have a better approach to put forward, I'm all ears.

All I know is I didn't post for several years. I came back and saw MJ stans are not only pushing the Pippen hate like they did my entire previous time on ISH, they have become a lot more extreme as time goes by and the frequency is a lot greater. If it was just one poster or two or three it would be one thing but it's Team MJ practically whole hog, with a handful of exceptions like Kuniva and Phoenix.

3ball honestly Needs a long break. His arguments used to include links and some facts. Now he’s just a babbling brook without any work cited

[3ball]

People in the 90's absolutely said Pippen sucked on offense and just overall

Not just players, but everyday fans on the street would make fun of Pippen... It's hyperbole, but there's truth to it and many people said it... MANY people.. it is was a theme

He was a great "flow" points scorer, but bad at tough points or important points that required more than being in the right place at the right time

It's funny because pippen's 21 on 40% took the knicks 7 games.. this sheds light on things because obviously Jordan makes the Finals in place of Pippen and would do so with ANY ready-made system and roster of VETERANS

Bottom line - Pippen was often not that good, but the system, teamwork, experience and resulting victory covered it up.. for example, people have no idea that pippen was horrible in the 96' Finals or many other series - he was always COMPLETELY OVERLOOKED.. no one really considered whether his offense was good because no one was paying attention to him - only MJ's stat line was noticed.. he simply wasn't talked about, except to say "eh, he ain't that good"

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball honestly Needs a long break. His arguments used to include links and some facts. Now he’s just a babbling brook without any work cited

I started posting here in 2009. He started in 2014. Then I stopped posting for years. During that overlap he was just another MJ stan. He wasn't particularly annoying nor was he the guy setting the tone for the others. I can't speak to how or why he changed. Do you have any ideas?

What I can speak to is the MJ stans I posted with from 2009 through the mid 2010's are a lot more extreme, a lot more insecure, and a lot more angry at Pippen. I presume that is because LeBron has become such a big threat, much more than Kobe ever was. Somehow lashing out Pippen makes them feel better about MJ possibly losing GOAT status.

One MJ stan said Pippen was a top 5 guy for several years, compared Pippen favorably to Ewing and Drexler (he had Pippen better than one and equal to the other) back in the day. Now? This summer he thinks Pippen wasn't as good as Gasol. Same guy. Pippen retired. What changed to make Pippen become that much worse in the 2010's? :lol I use him as a proxy for the group. You won't find hardly any MJ stan who would say Pippen was top 5 or better than those guys today.

[3ball]

3ball honestly Needs a long break. His arguments used to include links and some facts. Now he’s just a babbling brook without any work cited

.
The opponent's 2nd leading scorer in a series either outscored Pippen, or matched him with better efficiency in 14 of 36 series (40%), and 33% of series during the championship years


................................. PPG.. FG%.. TS.. ORTG

88' Pippen 1st Rd... 10.6.. 47.1.. 49.4.... 96
88' Harper 1st Rd... 17.6.. 47.6.. 50.7.. 100

88' Pippen. 2nd Rd..... 9.4.. 45.8.. 48.5.... 85
88' Dantley 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 50.0.. 58.9.. 117

89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15.0.. 39.7.. 51.0.. 102
89' Nance. 1st Rd... 19.4.. 55.1.. 58.4.. 117

89' Pippen' ECF..... 9.7.. 40.4.. 45.8.... 94
89' Aguirre ECF... 13.3.. 55.8.. 59.8.. 120

90' Pippen ECF..... 16.6.. 42.6.. 52.0.. 102
90' Thomas ECF... 17.6.. 39.6.. 51.5.. 108

92' Pippen 2nd Rd... 16.0.. 40.2.. 49.3.. 106
92' X-Man. 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 49.6.. 52.5.. 106

93' Pippen' 1st Rd... 15.3.. 42.2.. 45.3.. 100
93' K Willis 1st Rd... 16.7.. 45.7.. 58.9.. 117

94' Pippen 2nd Rd... 21.7.. 40.5.. 51.0.. 103
94' Ewing' 2nd Rd.... 22.9.. 53.0.. 58.1.. 113

95' S Pippen 1st Rd... 16.0.. 51.0.. 60.0.. 122 (3rd option behind kukoc)
95' Johnson' 1st Rd... 20.0.. 47.7.. 54.6.. 119

96' Pippen' 2nd Rd... 15.6.. 33.0.. 41.6.. 100
96' Oakley. 2nd Rd... 13.2.. 50.0.. 57.7.... 99

96' Pippen' ECF.. 18.5.. 45.3.. 50.8.. 120
96' Penny. ECF... 25.5.. 46.9.. 55.1.. 108

96' Pippen. Finals... 15.7.. 34.3.. 42.9.. 106
96' S Kemp Finals... 23.3.. 55.1.. 63.3.. 117

97' Pippen. 1st Rd'... 16.7.. 38.6.. 49.3.. 106
97' Howard 1st Rd... 18.7.. 45.3.. 58.6.. 123

98' Pippen. ECF... 16.6.. 39.2.. 46.3.. 102
98' R Smits ECF... 16.3.. 55.4.. 62.6.. 119

93' Pippen Finals.... 21.2.. 43.9.. 45.9.... 97
93' Majerle Finals... 17.2.. 42.0.. 58.7.. 128

97' S Pippen Finals... 20.0.. 3.5 apg.. 42.2.. 54.1.. 101.. 4 clutch pts
97' Stockton Finals... 15.0.. 8.8 apg.. 50.0.. 61.1.. 111.. 12 clutch pts



the 93' Finals, 97' Finals, 95' 2nd Round and 97' ECF weren't included in the final tally even though Pippen was outplayed in those series as well

[Smoke117]

If you have a better approach to put forward, I'm all ears.

All I know is I didn't post for several years. I came back and saw MJ stans are not only pushing the Pippen hate like they did my entire previous time on ISH, they have become a lot more extreme as time goes by and the frequency is a lot greater. If it was just one poster or two or three it would be one thing but it's Team MJ practically whole hog, with a handful of exceptions like Kuniva and Phoenix.

lol I've said for years now...if you just ignore him he'll go away. He wants attention. You fools want to engage in his nonsense, though. There really isn't a "better" approach as he's ****ing crazy. You can't have a logical debate with him so why even bother? The only times I ever engage with him anymore is when I'm shit faced.

[3ball]

lol I've said for years now...if you just ignore him he'll go away. He wants attention. You fools want to engage in his nonsense, though. There really isn't a "better" approach as he's ****ing crazy. You can't have a logical debate with him so why even bother? The only times I ever engage with him anymore is when I'm shit faced.

You know what's crazy?

How Paul George caught massive heat for playing poorly and there's tons of articles lamenting his play, but where were those articles for Pippen? he sat out the final possession - that's the only time he was ever knocked, despite playing like George did all the time

All the real stars have articles written about them when they play badly, except Pippen because he wasn't a real star despite is accolades - everyone knew deep down that he was carried by MJ, and built by MJ.. so when he was demolished in big series like the 96' Finals, 92' ECF, 98' ECF, or 89' ECF, no one said a word about it... Because it was no different than if Kukoc or Kerr played bad (non-stars... no one cares about them)