CP3, most underrated EVER? Top 5 PG ever?

[Shooter]

Amazing player and ball dominator.

WHAT A SHOT!!

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Easily

Magic
Oscar
CP3

top 3 fam

[RRR3]

Yes and yes. I have him 4th behind Magic, Curry, and Oscar. He’s in my top 20.

[NBAGOAT]

not most underrated but underrated a bit. Got him easily in top 25.

[Shooter]

Easily

Magic
Oscar
CP3

top 3 fam


Yes and yes. I have him 4th behind Magic, Curry, and Oscar. He’s in my top 20.

:cheers:

[Shooter]

not most underrated but underrated a bit. Got him easily in top 25.

That's kind of the thing though I know he is top 25 but I would say most people don't have him there. I think he is criminally underrated, or maybe I'm wrong?

[NBAGOAT]

That's kind of the thing though I know he is top 25 but I would say most people don't have him there. I think he is criminally underrated, or maybe I'm wrong?

i think a good portion have him top 30. if you have payton or isiah over him, no offense to those guys but you're heavily underrating him then

[Smoke117]

The Point (Clutch) God.

[1987_Lakers]

Yes and yes. I have him 4th behind Magic, Curry, and Oscar.

This. He gets alot of hate for lack of wins in the playoffs, but besides losing to Houston in 2015, I can't think of a series where his team was an overwhelming favorite and lost. He's been on alot of good team, but just ran into better team in the playoffs, it happens. Can't blame CP3 for that.

Not the best PG ever, but in my eyes he's the most complete PG that has ever lived.

[Overdrive]

That's kind of the thing though I know he is top 25 but I would say most people don't have him there. I think he is criminally underrated, or maybe I'm wrong?

He's underrated as a player, but GOAT rankings consider team success alot und he simply has none. He played on talented teams alot in his career. Nothing to show for.

Great floor raiser, not so much to bring teams over the top. 2018 could've changed the story. Like 11 for Dirk.

[1987_Lakers]

He's underrated as a player, but GOAT rankings consider team success alot und he simply has none. He played on talented teams alot in his career. Nothing to show for.

Great floor raiser, not so much to bring teams over the top. 2018 could've changed the story. Like 11 for Dirk.

I guess K. Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Nash, Elgin Baylor, & Ewing are not all-time greats.

Nobody has CP3 in the top 10-15 range, so your argument falls flat.

[imdaman99]

Yeah I'm fine with that. I don't know about top 20 player all time, you prob gotta have an MVP somewhere in there for that.

[RRR3]

He's underrated as a player, but GOAT rankings consider team success alot und he simply has none. He played on talented teams alot in his career. Nothing to show for.

Great floor raiser, not so much to bring teams over the top. 2018 could've changed the story. Like 11 for Dirk.
He very well might have a FMVP if he didn’t get hurt in 2018.

[RRR3]

Yeah I'm fine with that. I don't know about top 20 player all time, you prob gotta have an MVP somewhere in there for that.
Jerry West never won MVP and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have him top 20.

[DMAVS41]

not most underrated but underrated a bit. Got him easily in top 25.

If people are saying he's "for sure" a top 25 player of all-time...there is no way he's even a little under-rated...he'd be over-rated if anything if that is the place he's being put historically.

Paul is without a doubt an all-time great, but there are some amazing players in their own right that have had more individual and team success.

So saying he's easily top 25 is pretty bold imo.

[NBAGOAT]

If people are saying he's "for sure" a top 25 player of all-time...there is no way he's even a little under-rated...he'd be over-rated if anything if that is the place he's being put historically.

Paul is without a doubt an all-time great, but there are some amazing players in their own right that have had more individual and team success.

So saying he's easily top 25 is pretty bold imo.

yea it is a bit bold but i'm sticking with it. i would say most people dont have him for sure top 25

[Shooter]

He very well might have a FMVP if he didn’t get hurt in 2018.

Big facts :applause:

[Overdrive]

I guess K. Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Nash, Elgin Baylor, & Ewing are not all-time greats.

Nobody has CP3 in the top 10-15 range, so your argument falls flat.

Why does it fall flat? What exact spot did I argue him to be?

I just don't think he's really that underrated GOAT-list wise, because his career doesn't stand out as much as his skills do.

Ewing/Baylor range is argueable. All the other guys have either hardware or records. I'm just saying by any standard players are ranked that way and team success is important for hardware. If the hornets beat the Lakers in their last meeting 08 and take the 1st seed CP3's GOATlist ranking would've drastically changed.


He very well might have a FMVP if he didn’t get hurt in 2018.

This would've changed the perception most imo.


Jerry West never won MVP and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have him top 20.

Top 25 is mostly made up of champs, mvps and fmvps. It's just the way it is.

[DMAVS41]

yea it is a bit bold but i'm sticking with it. i would say most people dont have him for sure top 25

I'd imagine most people have him in the top 35 or so...maybe a bit higher...which seems right.

I mean...in the last 20 years alone there are a lot of guys that the evidence points to just being better at basketball...barring him doing some magical stuff late in his career (possible, but unlikely)

Is he better than any of the following?

Durant/Curry/Lebron/Wade/Leonard/Giannis/Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Dirk/KG

Harden is probably 50/50 at this point...

I don't know...that is like 11 or 12 right there already. Players start to add up pretty fast.

[NBAGOAT]

Why does it fall flat? What exact spot did I argue him to be?

I just don't think he's really that underrated GOAT-list wise, because his career doesn't stand out as much as his skills do.

Ewing/Baylor range is argueable. All the other guys have either hardware or records. I'm just saying by any standard players are ranked that way and team success is important for hardware. If the hornets beat the Lakers in their last meeting 08 and take the 1st seed CP3's GOATlist ranking would've drastically changed.



This would've changed the perception most imo.



Top 25 is mostly made up of champs, mvps and fmvps. It's just the way it is.

well imo goat lists should be focused more on level of play than hardware or team success. if consensus is he's say in the 30-35 range but I think he should be top 25, then I think he's a bit underrated

[Overdrive]

well imo goat lists should be focused more on level of play than hardware or team success. if consensus is he's say in the 20-25 range but I think he should be top 25, then I think he's a bit underrated

You mean a BOAT list? This would shake up lists a lot, but you have to consider that players who are penalized for never winning could easily slide up aswell.

[aj1987]

Easily

Magic
Oscar
CP3

top 3 fam

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Just imagine being as dumb as this dude.

[NBAGOAT]

You mean a BOAT list? This would shake up lists a lot, but you have to consider that players who are penalized for never winning could easily slide up aswell.

goat or boat are kind of semantics. Yes players who havent won would move up I just think cp3s better than most of them

[DMAVS41]

well imo goat lists should be focused more on level of play than hardware or team success. if consensus is he's say in the 20-25 range but I think he should be top 25, then I think he's a bit underrated

I completely agree with this.

However, level of play should translate to special things happening for the individual player and or team....at least a little in a career if you are going to claim he's better than all but like 24 players in history.

Paul has had some bad playoff meltdowns, struggled with wearing down late in seasons, and doesn't have a magical run or anything...hard to give him the tiebreaker imo.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He’s up there

[Overdrive]

goat or boat are kind of semantics. Yes players who havent won would move up I just think cp3s better than most of them

Not really semantics. Tracy McGrady was a very good player, but alot of worse players who had more impact would be considered above him on a GOAT list compared to a BOAT list. CP3 is a less hurt McGrady, insanely skilled, solid individual career, but no tangible success.

[NBAGOAT]

I'd imagine most people have him in the top 35 or so...maybe a bit higher...which seems right.

I mean...in the last 20 years alone there are a lot of guys that the evidence points to just being better at basketball...barring him doing some magical stuff late in his career (possible, but unlikely)

Is he better than any of the following?

Durant/Curry/Lebron/Wade/Leonard/Giannis/Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Dirk/KG

Harden is probably 50/50 at this point...

I don't know...that is like 11 or 12 right there already. Players start to add up pretty fast.

a few people will argue him over wade and kobe but I wont. longevity is a good factor for cp3 for now however and that matters in an all time list.

Malone is in the majority of top 20 lists, in some people's top 15. magic/bird/mj/hakeem/drob/ewing/barkley/shaq/kg can all be pretty easily argued over him as better players and that's 9

[NBAGOAT]

Not really semantics. Tracy McGrady was a very good player, but alot of worse players who had more impact would be considered above him on a GOAT list compared to a BOAT list. CP3 is a less hurt McGrady, insanely skilled, solid individual career, but no tangible success.

alright if you consider a boat list more focused on peak play then yes I believe a GOAT list should have less weight on team success too. Helping your teams wins is crucial but you're still heavily affected by teammates and circumstances. Multiple years the 2018 rockets would win a title but gs was a special team for example

[NBAGOAT]

I completely agree with this.

However, level of play should translate to special things happening for the individual player and or team....at least a little in a career if you are going to claim he's better than all but like 24 players in history.

Paul has had some bad playoff meltdowns, struggled with wearing down late in seasons, and doesn't have a magical run or anything...hard to give him the tiebreaker imo.

wear and tear is a good counter argument but he has less than 5 meltdowns, he's a good enough playoff performer compared to most top end guys. The magical run is not something you have with multiple better players either. That's just narrative

[DMAVS41]

wear and tear is a good counter argument but he has less than 5 meltdowns, he's a good enough playoff performer compared to most top end guys. The magical run is not something you have with multiple better players either. That's just narrative

I'm being nice with "magical run"

What I really mean is just making the NBA finals. It is hard to give Paul the edge over guys I consider as good or better...when his supposed better play never could get a team to the finals...in fact, he's only made the conference finals once in his career...and he was the 2nd best player on that team.

I agree with your philosophy broadly, but team success does matter when individual players are this great...especially when Paul had decent help for a while in his career. It isn't like he was playing with what KG got in Minny or something. He played with enough help and on enough teams where you'd expect he'd do something like make a NBA finals, at least, if he really was as good as you are claiming.

[DMAVS41]

alright if you consider a boat list more focused on peak play then yes I believe a GOAT list should have less weight on team success too. Helping your teams wins is crucial but you're still heavily affected by teammates and circumstances. Multiple years the 2018 rockets would win a title but gs was a special team for example



Definitely agree with the bold if you are assuming Paul is healthy, but he wasn't healthy and that has been an issue for him.

[NBAGOAT]

I'm being nice with "magical run"

What I really mean is just making the NBA finals. It is hard to give Paul the edge over guys I consider as good or better...when his supposed better play never could get a team to the finals...in fact, he's only made the conference finals once in his career...and he was the 2nd best player on that team.

I agree with your philosophy broadly, but team success does matter when individual players are this great...especially when Paul had decent help for a while in his career. It isn't like he was playing with what KG got in Minny or something. He played with enough help and on enough teams where you'd expect he'd do something like make a NBA finals, at least, if he really was as good as you are claiming.

agree cp3 has had good help but you need great help to make the finals. the 08 hornets team was very good but other stars had similar supporting casts that year, a few better. The hornets didnt put a contending roster around him after that though he had some down years in that period too.

The clips best chance with their core was 14 and 15 and you can argue for sure the clips blew it. they were going be clear underdogs to the spurs and gs however so it's a bit of a moo point when talking about making the finals. 16-17 werent factors because of blake's injuries and decline and poor roster building by doc. so along with 13 and 19 he has 6 years really of being on a contender and that's being a little generous(ofc blake also was injured in 2013 lol). Not one of those years I would say he was on the most talented team in the league.

Finally we're not putting him in the top 10-15 all time. He has a good amount of top 5 seasons and every year besides 2010 is top 10. I think that's good enough to be top 25. he even looks better by impact metrics than i rate him for his later years.

Ranks 14-20

Pipm:1,2,4,1,3,21,6 RPM:2,7,3,2,1,12,6

[Smoke117]

a few people will argue him over wade and kobe but I wont. longevity is a good factor for cp3 for now however and that matters in an all time list.

Malone is in the majority of top 20 lists, in some people's top 15. magic/bird/mj/hakeem/drob/ewing/barkley/shaq/kg can all be pretty easily argued over him as better players and that's 9

Well, Paul is clearly ahead of Kobe. That's not even close. Wade? About a push.

[BigShotBob]

Well, Paul is clearly ahead of Kobe. That's not even close. Wade? About a push.

We trollin' now?

[DMAVS41]

agree cp3 has had good help but you need great help to make the finals. the 08 hornets team was very good but other stars had similar supporting casts that year, a few better. The hornets didnt put a contending roster around him after that though he had some down years in that period too.

The clips best chance with their core was 14 and 15 and you can argue for sure the clips blew it. they were going be clear underdogs to the spurs and gs however so it's a bit of a moo point when talking about making the finals. 16-17 werent factors because of blake's injuries and decline and poor roster building by doc. so along with 13 and 19 he has 6 years really of being on a contender and that's being a little generous(ofc blake also was injured in 2013 lol). Not one of those years I would say he was on the most talented team in the league.

Finally we're not putting him in the top 10-15 all time. He has a good amount of top 5 seasons and every year besides 2010 is top 10. I think that's good enough to be top 25. he even looks better by impact metrics than i rate him for his later years.

Ranks 14-20

Pipm:1,2,4,1,3,21,6 RPM:2,7,3,2,1,12,6

Again, you can say all these things about many other great players in terms of not playing on the best or most talented team.

If you are going to claim that a player is, at worst, the 25th best player ever...I think you have to actually have accomplished more given his circumstances. I am perfectly fine with the notion that the best player of all-time could be on such bad teams they never win a title or make the finals...so it isn't like a player has to do that for me to rank them high.

However, given Paul's circumstances...only making one conference finals and never making the finals hurt him in these comparisons.

I think where Paul is concerned, people just have a hard time understanding that really short guards that have the ball in their hands as much as him...just don't have the same kind of impact that their skillset implies...especially with such a well-rounded player on both ends like Paul. He has very few weaknesses and is clearly a very smart player. However, there is a ceiling to what he really can do on the court...same ceiling Nash and Stockton faced...to an extent. Compare Curry and CP3, for example, on paper...and it seems like Paul is better, but he wasn't...the skillset Curry brought to the table is simply more valuable. So I think that skews things a bit...small guys have it hard...and small guys that dominate the ball that don't score at a super high volume or have some crazy shooting/gravity of Curry...their impact just isn't as great as you'd think it would be based on their skillset.

In addition to that...I don't think Paul gets enough criticism for how he treated teammates and chemistry issues his teams have had. Part of that is how soft a lot of players are now, but a good leader finds a way to work with any type of person...and that is not something Paul did throughout his career.

Regardless, he's an all-time great based on any reasonable criteria...but "for sure" top 25 is essentially saying he's clearly better than some absolutely phenomenal players that accomplished more and proved more when the games matter most.

[NBAGOAT]

Again, you can say all these things about many other great players in terms of not playing on the best or most talented team.

If you are going to claim that a player is, at worst, the 25th best player ever...I think you have to actually have accomplished more given his circumstances. I am perfectly fine with the notion that the best player of all-time could be on such bad teams they never win a title or make the finals...so it isn't like a player has to do that for me to rank them high.

However, given Paul's circumstances...only making one conference finals and never making the finals hurt him in these comparisons.

I think where Paul is concerned, people just have a hard time understanding that really short guards that have the ball in their hands as much as him...just don't have the same kind of impact that their skillset implies...especially with such a well-rounded player on both ends like Paul. He has very few weaknesses and is clearly a very smart player. However, there is a ceiling to what he really can do on the court...same ceiling Nash and Stockton faced...to an extent. Compare Curry and CP3, for example, on paper...and it seems like Paul is better, but he wasn't...the skillset Curry brought to the table is simply more valuable. So I think that skews things a bit...small guys have it hard...and small guys that dominate the ball that don't score at a super high volume or have some crazy shooting/gravity of Curry...their impact just isn't as great as you'd think it would be based on their skillset.

In addition to that...I don't think Paul gets enough criticism for how he treated teammates and chemistry issues his teams have had. Part of that is how soft a lot of players are now, but a good leader finds a way to work with any type of person...and that is not something Paul did throughout his career.

Regardless, he's an all-time great based on any reasonable criteria...but "for sure" top 25 is essentially saying he's clearly better than some absolutely phenomenal players that accomplished more and proved more when the games matter most.

well curry's better than paul I wouldnt dispute that though longevity could keep him behind for now(he'll be higher all time in the end for sure). Agree in general wings have the largest impact on average. Bigs arent great right now either because most of their impact comes from the defensive end. You're not going really have top tier offensive impact without playmaking or elite shooting. Paul did have chemistry issues but it really blew up in 1 situation the harden team. Clippers had other issues besides chemistry, he was fine in no. I would also counter with those impact numbers, they're elite and that's for the later part of his career. Impact is not an issue for paul specifically since his defense is excellent for a perimeter defender.

We disagree on the absolutely phenomenal players in the 25-30 range. I think there's a clear cutoff when you get to the mid 20s. someone like pippen's who is in quite a lot of top 30s, I think paul is clearly better. I wouldnt completely fault someone for picking nash but I think the defensive gap is enough to give paul an advantage and he has similar to better longevity now. dont think stockton has a good case even with lonegvity. Even someone like moses who's in most top 20's has real concerns about his game that make me consider a debate.

[999Guy]

We trollin' now?

Kobe wasn’t better than Chris Paul. He just played a style that’s always gonna be more popular.

And oh yeah Phil Jackson and Shaq, and Gasol and Odom, and Garnett’s injuries in Boston he sneaks 5 rings out of a career that easily could’ve had zero if he just didn’t get drafted by LAL.

He was always attracted to big markets. If not LAL, he would’ve rotted around the NBA in places like Chicago and NY. Literally exactly like Melo now that I think about. Same mentality, same destiny but very fortunate career.

[FromDowntown]

CP3 is usually underrated by casual fans but rated just right by elite fans like us. I have him in the top 30 range. Incredible talent, led the league in assists a million times, very impactful player, and he plays both sides of the ball.

[TheCorporation]

Magic
Curry
Thomas
Oscar
Chris Paul

Yes, top 5.

[ImKobe]

Well, Paul is clearly ahead of Kobe. That's not even close. Wade? About a push.

Drinking again huh?

[RealSkipBayless]

Only thing that gets less attention is the fact that he is one of the dirtiest players in the game.

[Norcaliblunt]

Was underrated until right now where everyone is overrating him.

[Nashty]

He's higher than Kobe, but that don't mean much because Kobe is barely top 500.

[DMAVS41]

well curry's better than paul I wouldnt dispute that though longevity could keep him behind for now(he'll be higher all time in the end for sure). Agree in general wings have the largest impact on average. Bigs arent great right now either because most of their impact comes from the defensive end. You're not going really have top tier offensive impact without playmaking or elite shooting. Paul did have chemistry issues but it really blew up in 1 situation the harden team. Clippers had other issues besides chemistry, he was fine in no. I would also counter with those impact numbers, they're elite and that's for the later part of his career. Impact is not an issue for paul specifically since his defense is excellent for a perimeter defender.

We disagree on the absolutely phenomenal players in the 25-30 range. I think there's a clear cutoff when you get to the mid 20s. someone like pippen's who is in quite a lot of top 30s, I think paul is clearly better. I wouldnt completely fault someone for picking nash but I think the defensive gap is enough to give paul an advantage and he has similar to better longevity now. dont think stockton has a good case even with lonegvity. Even someone like moses who's in most top 20's has real concerns about his game that make me consider a debate.

I agree about the current state of play, but we aren't comparing Paul just to current guys. Bigs struggle today, but Paul is being compared to their level of play and impact in the past in different eras, but even today I think this gets a little tougher than you are saying.

Take Anthony Davis. Of course Paul should be ranked higher now on longevity...which I agree of course matters. But is Paul actually better at basketball? Even with how the league is today...I think it could be argued that Davis is better at basketball than Paul. Yes, he'll have to do it for a lot longer to warrant be ranked ahead of Paul, but projecting...absolutely reasonable to think Davis goes down as a better player than Paul. He may not of course, but I don't know...if you don't think Anthony Davis is a phenomenal player (and of course he's not even close to top 30 all-time right now)...I think you are either under-rating other players or seriously over-rating the impact CP3 really has had.

And, yes, impact is an issue for Paul. He's really small, tends to not consistently dominate games with his scoring, and doesn't have the kind of off ball impact that you'd want out of a small guard. Again, if the goal of a career is to win as much as possible...the impact you are talking about has to be weighted towards playoff performances more in a debate among the best players ever.

[DMAVS41]

I think where we disagree is essentially;

I'd have your opinion if Paul didn't wear down late in years at times, didn't have quite the meltdowns he and his teams have had, and had at least one run to the NBA finals at some point of his career. Like I said before...taking all that in...which is a product of how good at basketball he is...it is hard for me to bump him up from around 30 to like 22 or wherever you have him.

I know that may come off as nitpicking a little, but when you are comparing the best players ever...you kind of have to.

The way I think about all-time rankings is;

If you did a draft that had every NBA player of all-time in it...where would you draft said player knowing everything you know about the player and his career. So not a career ranking of just adding up titles or mvp's or something, but given what you know...what are you likely to get out of this player if you draft them on your franchise. And if the goal is winning as many titles as possible, I think Paul's draft position should be impacted by the things I've referenced.