Kawhi would absolutely baptize the entire 90’s era

[Vino24]

Can you imagine Kawhi in the 90’s? Defense and hands like Pippen better all around offensive game than MJ...Kawhi would absolutely rag doll the 90’s

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Agreed. Kawhi would ragdoll any era though. 60s, 70s, 80s, 2000s, you name it.

[Gohan]

You still gotta respect mj, without him there is no Kawhi. Mj perfected the midrange game. Thing I like about mj and Kawhi is they don’t dominate the ball. Kawhi still has to work on his passing though

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You still gotta respect mj, without him there is no Kawhi. Mj perfected the midrange game. Thing I like about mj and Kawhi is they don’t dominate the ball. Kawhi still has to work on his passing though

Kawhi's passing is very underrated. Clippers have had no point guard this series and averaging 124 offensive rating this series. They were also at 118 all season with Kawhi. Leading goat level offenses in reg season and playoffs so far.

[Vino24]

Kawhi's passing is very underrated. Clippers have had no point guard this series and averaging 124 offensive rating this series. They were also at 118 all season with Kawhi. Leading goat level offenses in reg season and playoffs so far.

Big facts! Now what is the highest rated offense that MJ led?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Big facts! Now what is the highest rated offense that MJ led?

On/off only been around since 1997 and 1998. Offenses were also generally worse back then. Just looking at raw offensive rating though, Jordan led them to 114 offense in 1997 and 107 offense in 1998.

[insight]

Can you imagine Kawhi in the 90’s? Defense and hands like Pippen better all around offensive game than MJ...Kawhi would absolutely rag doll the 90’s
You've got a great imagination. Maybe Kawhi can win one league MVP before he is touted as the modern day space jam. I personally love Kawhi, but he is struggling to contain a 21 year old player named Luka but he is going to baptize the original Dream Team.

[Roundball_Rock]

Great players would be great in any era IMO. Kawhi would be Pippen with significantly better scoring, somewhat less playmaking or Hill with significantly better scoring, light years better defense, and somewhat less playmaking.

Jordan would still be the best player of the 90's if Kawhi is there but where does Kawhi slot in? Second? Third behind MJ and Hakeem? Obviously year by year will vary more but I am talking totality of the decade.


On/off only been around since 1997 and 1998. Offenses were also generally worse back then. Just looking at raw offensive rating though, Jordan led them to 114 offense in 1997 and 107 offense in 1998.

That 101.9 without Pippen did damage considering he played only 42% of minutes in 98'.

[Vino24]

You still gotta respect mj, without him there is no Kawhi. Mj perfected the midrange game. Thing I like about mj and Kawhi is they don’t dominate the ball. Kawhi still has to work on his passing though

I respect MJ like one would respect an old muscle car. Yes it’s a classic but at the end of the day it’s as fast as a modern Honda Civic and there are a lot of Honda’s in today’s game.

[3ball]

I respect MJ like one would respect an old muscle car. Yes it’s a classic but at the end of the day it’s as fast as a modern Honda Civic and there are a lot of Honda’s in today’s game.

MJ does everything better than kawhi and led 4 goat offenses, including the #3 all-time ORtg, and also #6, 10 and #12...

MJ has the most top 10 and top 20 offenses despite no 3rd option and an often weak scoring 2nd

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ basically missed three seasons (86', 94', 95'). In two of them the Bulls ranked 8th and 10th in offense and in the third they were league average so it is a deceptive myth that MJ had poor offensive "casts." What Jordan did is raise the ceiling--but Kawhi is doing the same with LA.

Clippers RS oRTG with Kawhi: 118.4 (#1 by far--Dallas at 116.7)
Clippers RS oRTG with KL off: 110.1 (#19)

So Kawhi lifts the team from #19 to GOAT-level offense. The Clippers also have a second superstar we can use as a proxy to tease out how much of it is Kawhi per se and how much simply losing a superstar. Since both players missed a lot of games we have good samples on each side (Kawhi has played 53% of minutes, PG 41%).

Clippers RS oRTG with George: 116.7 (tied for #1)
Clippers RS oRTG with PG off: 112.8 (#7)

George has a notable impact as well but it pales in comparison to Kawhi's.

Kawhi is damn good. He gets underrated because he is boring.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Great players would be great in any era IMO. Kawhi would be Pippen with significantly better scoring, somewhat less playmaking or Hill with significantly better scoring, light years better defense, and somewhat less playmaking.

Jordan would still be the best player of the 90's if Kawhi is there but where does Kawhi slot in? Second? Third behind MJ and Hakeem? Obviously year by year will vary more but I am talking totality of the decade.



That 101.9 without Pippen did damage considering he played only 42% of minutes in 98'.

And Kawhi never struggled nearly that much without George. Kawhi was still anchoring goat level offenses with George playing like crap all series.

[3ball]

And Kawhi never struggled nearly that much without George. Kawhi was still anchoring goat level offenses with George playing like crap all series.

When has kawhi led an offense with 114 ortg or higher in regular season

[Roundball_Rock]

And Kawhi never struggled nearly that much without George. Kawhi was still anchoring goat level offenses with George playing like crap all series.

Yeah. I posted the on/off data for Kawhi and PG for the RS (PO is even more stark but small sample size). You may have been typing this while I posted it.

He did the same thing in Toronto. 117.5 with Kawhi on, 109.8 with Kawhi off. That is the difference between #1 and the #19 offense--eerily the same numbers as his impact on the Clippers. :oldlol:

Kawhi is a good player to gauge because he misses games because of load management and whatever he misses due to injuries on top plus him changing teams. So we get good data about teams without him. Spurs, Raptors took a big hit without him as well. Spurs were down to 17th, Raptors 14th in offense without him (Spurs figure includes the handful of games KL played).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

When has kawhi led an offense with 114 ortg or higher in regular season

113.9 offense with Paul George not in top 4 total minutes played this season.

When has Jordan led a 113.9 offense with Scottie Pippen not in top 4 total minutes played?

[Gohan]

We can’t ignore regular season. That’s my fave part of the nba playoffs are fun too but regular season is what makes nba exciting

[Roundball_Rock]

113.9 offense with Paul George not in top 4 total minutes played this season.

When has Jordan led a 113.9 offense with Scottie Pippen not in top 4 total minutes played?

Can you believe that guy. 113.9 so he makes the cut-off 114.0. :roll:

113.9 is with the offense performing at the #19 level with Kawhi not there. With Kawhi it is GOAT-level. We have on/off data for the 97' Bulls too.

Bulls oRTG with Jordan on: 114.2 (#1)
Bulls oRTG with Jordan off: 106.8 (#12, tied)

Bulls oRTG with Pippen on: 114.0 (#1)
Bulls oRTG with Pippen off: 107.7 (#11)

In the playoffs it was 108.3 with Jordan on, 96.6 with Jordan off; 109.5 with Pippen on, 94.5 with Pippen off.

So Jordan and Pippen track each other almost to a tee--while Kawhi and George diverge immensely. #7 to #19 is obviously a much bigger difference than #11 versus #12.

[Phoenix]

Great players would be great in any era IMO. Kawhi would be Pippen with significantly better scoring, somewhat less playmaking or Hill with significantly better scoring, light years better defense, and somewhat less playmaking.

Jordan would still be the best player of the 90's if Kawhi is there but where does Kawhi slot in? Second? Third behind MJ and Hakeem? Obviously year by year will vary more but I am talking totality of the decade.



That 101.9 without Pippen did damage considering he played only 42% of minutes in 98'.

That's a multilayered scenario. As you said, it depends because there's year to year variance for every great player over the spread of a decade. You also need to consider that transposing Kawhi as we know him and dropping him into 1995, is different from Kawhi coming up in that era and starting his career in 1990. Current Kawhi has the benefit of the last 20 years of great wings as a reference point, even going further back because he reportedly studied MJ whose prime goes back 25-30 years and he likely took some stuff from Scottie as well. Dropping Kawhi into 1990 as a 20 year old means his baseline is going to be different, he'd have grown up on Bird, Dantley, King, Dr.J etc etc and etc. His talent and work ethic is innate so he'll still likely be great, but he won't be *this* Kawhi stylistically and skillset-wise. My guess is among wings he'll land somewhere between 94 Pip and like 97 Grant. Maybe better in same ways and worse than others ( if your theory holds true that he develops better scoring but inferior playmaking, and defense on par with Pip and ahead of Grant). The 3 point shot wasn't as big then so he likely won't develop it, so he'll probably be exclusively a mid-range/ long 2 scorer in the MJ mold, but missing peak Jordan's raw athletic explosion and speed.

As far as how he's perceived over the decade? If he's relatively as great as he is now he'll probably land as a top 6 player but team play will factor in as well as his own individual accolades( all-NBA, all defense, all-star). Kawhi on the 90's Clippers isn't winning championships or even strongly competing for one, though they'd obviously be better. Kawhi on the Spurs is interesting. Swap out Sean Elliot for him and paired with peak David Robinson? That should net some finals appearances and perhaps a title. Then with that situation, does Duncan still come onboard if the same scenario plays out if Robinson missing the 97 year and the Spurs get the top pick? Well they won a title in 99 without Kawhi, so it's no-brainer they win with him but Duncan is still likely the best player. Kawhi on the Raptors with Damon Stoudamire? Camby? Doug Christie? That's a playoff team in the east. I'm just putting him on the teams he plays for now and logically playing out the results. But who's to say he doesn't wind up on the Knicks? Or the Cavs? Or some other team where he puts them over the top. Or maybe he ends up on the Kings with Mitch Richmond lol. The possibilities are both endless and impossible to really predict.

[3ball]

113.9 offense with Paul George not in top 4 total minutes played this season.

When has Jordan led a 113.9 offense with Scottie Pippen not in top 4 total minutes played?
Kawhi has 3 teammates that score equal or better than Pippen, yet MJ still has 4 offenses over 114.0 and Kawhi has none

Regarding Pippen - a team can't have an elite offense with Pippen as best player, whereas Jordan had more all-time offenses than anyone ever

Hope that helps

[Marchesk]

https://youtu.be/DpIBPgNCI_o

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi has 3 teammates that score equal or better than Pippen, yet MJ still has 4 offenses over 114.0 and Kawhi has none

Regarding Pippen - a team can't have an elite offense with Pippen as best player, whereas Jordan had more all-time offenses than anyone ever

Hope that helps

Kawhi's 3 teammates leading in minutes during season

Lou Williams and Harrell - Lou was a journeyman and Harrell was a bench warmer on rockets

Shamet - bench warmer on more then half the teams in league

Nothing special about these guys.

Imagine Kawhi with Pippen playing next to him? An actual point guard, Kawhi hasn't had that all year. Also the triangle offense is most successful of all time and even top 7 when Smush Parker started in 2006.

I don't see the advantage for Kawhi here in terms of who their working with.

Phil without Jordan: 7 finals
Doc without Kawhi: 2 finals and Doc's teams were based on defense and not offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Great points, as always, Phoenix. :cheers:


You also need to consider that transposing Kawhi as we know him and dropping him into 1995, is different from Kawhi coming up in that era and starting his career in 1990

I suppose we would have to operate with the Kawhi we know since we don't know the counterfactual. He does benefit individually from learning from the wings of 90's and 00's, which he wouldn't have had if he was drafted in the late 80's. The flip side is he would have a better shot at team success in the 90's because top teams were a lot more diluted then than they are today. Reggie Miller, basically 90's Klay, was the best player on a perennial contender then. No way that happens in today's league.


As far as how he's perceived over the decade? If he's relatively as great as he is now he'll probably land as a top 6 player but team play will factor in as well as his own individual accolades( all-NBA, all defense, all-star)

So you would have him behind Hakeem, Malone, Barkley, and Robinson? I can see that. I would probably place him behind Hakeem. Playoffs are what separate Malone and Kawhi for me. Malone still is well ahead all-time but here we are talking if both were in the same era and had full careers unfold in that.


Kawhi on the 90's Clippers isn't winning championships or even strongly competing for one, though they'd obviously be better. Kawhi on the Spurs is interesting

He was the 15th pick and he may have been even lower back then because a player like him wasn't as valued in the 80's. So he would, barring a bad team owning pick rights, likely be drafted to an average to above average team.


Swap out Sean Elliot for him and paired with peak David Robinson? That should net some finals appearances and perhaps a title. Then with that situation, does Duncan still come onboard if the same scenario plays out if Robinson missing the 97 year and the Spurs get the top pick?

Yeah, Kawhi/Robinson would become the West version of Jordan/Pippen. Perennial finals, multiple chips. If Kawhi is there no Duncan, though, since Kawhi would keep them out the lottery even without Robinson.


Regarding Pippen - a team can't have an elite offense with Pippen as best player, whereas Jordan had

The inconvenient truth: the 95' Bulls had a better offense w/out Jordan than the 98' Bulls did w/out Pippen. :lol Somehow all the credit for the offense devolves onto Jordan--even though the data does not support that. He doesn't have the Kawhi/George type splits.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Can you believe that guy. 113.9 so he makes the cut-off 114.0. :roll:

113.9 is with the offense performing at the #19 level with Kawhi not there. With Kawhi it is GOAT-level. We have on/off data for the 97' Bulls too.

Bulls oRTG with Jordan on: 114.2 (#1)
Bulls oRTG with Jordan off: 106.8 (#12, tied)

Bulls oRTG with Pippen on: 114.0 (#1)
Bulls oRTG with Pippen off: 107.7 (#11)

In the playoffs it was 108.3 with Jordan on, 96.6 with Jordan off; 109.5 with Pippen on, 94.5 with Pippen off.

So Jordan and Pippen track each other almost to a tee--while Kawhi and George diverge immensely. #7 to #19 is obviously a much bigger difference than #11 versus #12.

Exactly. Pippen is more of a point guard then George is as well, so Kawhi would benefit even more. Beverly is a 3 and d guy who pretends to play point guard. Mavs series has been Shamet at point guard? That's like if Steve Kerr was starting at point guard.

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly. Pippen is more of a point guard then George is as well, so Kawhi would benefit even more. Beverly is a 3 and d guy who pretends to play point guard. Mavs series has been Shamet at point guard? That's like if Steve Kerr was starting at point guard.

Yup, good points--but don't bring up playmaking to these guys (or rebounding--PG averaged an anemic 0.5 oRPG this year). All they think offense is:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/speedsport-news/speedsport-news/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/01111256/1730GE1712.jpg

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yup, good points--but don't bring up playmaking to these guys (or rebounding--PG averaged an anemic 0.5 oRPG this year). All they think offense is:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/speedsport-news/speedsport-news/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/01111256/1730GE1712.jpg

Pippen is an actual point guard who just happens to start at SF. Pippen also led elite offense in Portland.

Thunder in 2019 offense: 17th ranked

Thunder 2020 offense: 16th ranked

They somehow improved without George + Westbrook duo

Raptors offense 2019: top 5
Raptors offense 2020: top 14

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen is an actual point guard who just happens to start at SF. Pippen also led elite offense in Portland.

Thunder in 2019 offense: 17th ranked

Thunder 2020 offense: 16th ranked

They somehow improved without George + Westbrook duo

Raptors offense 2019: top 5
Raptors offense 2020: top 14

Good points. George's offenses have always been consistently bad.

2013: 20th
2014: 23rd
2015: 23rd (PG misses 76 games)
2016: 25th
2017: 15th
2018: 7th (Pacers improve to 11th w/out PG)
2019: 17th (Thunder improve to 16th w/out PG)
2020: 2nd

Abysmal, outside of when he was playing with Kawhi or with MVP Westbrook and Carmelo (when Carmelo left they went from 7th to 17th).

[Gohan]

Ppg is all that matters don’t give a f$ck about anything else

[Vino24]

Ppg is all that matters don’t give a f$ck about anything else

Jerry West > MJ

[Gohan]

Wrong Jordan got higher ppg than Jerry west in regular season and playoffs

[Phoenix]

Great points, as always, Phoenix. :cheers:



I suppose we would have to operate with the Kawhi we know since we don't know the counterfactual. He does benefit individually from learning from the wings of 90's and 00's, which he wouldn't have had if he was drafted in the late 80's. The flip side is he would have a better shot at team success in the 90's because top teams were a lot more diluted then than they are today. Reggie Miller, basically 90's Klay, was the best player on a perennial contender then. No way that happens in today's league.



So you would have him behind Hakeem, Malone, Barkley, and Robinson? I can see that. I would probably place him behind Hakeem. Playoffs are what separate Malone and Kawhi for me. Malone still is well ahead all-time but here we are talking if both were in the same era and had full careers unfold in that.



He was the 15th pick and he may have been even lower back then because a player like him wasn't as valued in the 80's. So he would, barring a bad team owning pick rights, likely be drafted to an average to above average team.



Yeah, Kawhi/Robinson would become the West version of Jordan/Pippen. Perennial finals, multiple chips. If Kawhi is there no Duncan, though, since Kawhi would keep them out the lottery even without Robinson.





:cheers:

If we're just taking current Kawhi and dropping him into the 90s starting from 1990, yeah somewhere in that category of player you mention, with where he ranks dependent on the year. What separates Kawhi from Robinson and Malone is being a better 'big game' performer in the playoffs so based on the the team, he could be the tipping point. Bigs had far more value in the 90s so if you took a year like i.e 95, that 3 headed monster of Hakeem/Shaq/Robinson is there and I don't see him cracking that nut, but he may be right behind. I'm hesitant to put him over Barkley before 94 or 95 ( exception 92 which was a down year before the Suns trade).

In the 2nd half of the 90s alot of the 80/90's guys were slowing down. He's better than Penny and Hill at their best. I think in every year there's a couple guys you could take first but he's going to be a top 3-6 guy most of the decade. Maybe even top 2 for most of the back-end.

[ralph_i_el]

You can't compare Ortg across eras. You need to compare them relative to their peers. The Bulls led the NBA in efficiency with numbers that wouldn't lead the NBA right now... but were crazy high relative to the teams they played.

[Bronbron23]

Can you imagine Kawhi in the 90’s? Defense and hands like Pippen better all around offensive game than MJ...Kawhi would absolutely rag doll the 90’s

Vino missed his meds again today:facepalm