Who was MVP of 1st Round vs Blazers?

[3ball]

Anthony Davis - 36.4 PER and 0.395 WS/48 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02.html#all_playoffs_advanced)
Lebron James - 31.8 PER and 0.314 WS/48 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_advanced)

[AussieSteve]

What is the better line...


27.4ppg on .708ts%,10.2rpg, 10.2apg, 1.2spg, 0.4bpg

29.8ppg on .656ts%, 9.4rpg, 4.2apg, 1.4spg, 1.6bpg

Numbers are pretty even, but when you factor in that 70.6% of AD's field goals were assisted(!), it's pretty clear who actually had more impact.

LeBron controlling the games, AD the beneficiary.

[FromDowntown]

Birdfed

Isn't that the word you used?

AD needs to be BIRDFED by LeConductor?

2ez

[Nike D'Antoni]

Voting Lebron James, based on choices available. The real MVP was no HOOD/ARIZA/COLLINS/Lillard Mccollum back fracture.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

They both just destroyed them equally I think. Its hard to say when you're playing such a terrible team. -0.61 SRS and 28th ranked defense, I don't think Jordan ever faced a team that bad. Blazers wouldn't have made the playoffs if the season wasn't cut short.

Lillard/Nurkic blazers got swept by Davis/Jrue in 2018. So the least LeBron can do is beat them in 5 with Davis. Not impressed at all with Lakers yet.

[3ball]

They both just destroyed them equally I think. Its hard to say when you're playing such a terrible team. -0.61 SRS and 28th ranked defense, I don't think Jordan ever faced a team that bad. Blazers wouldn't have made the playoffs if the season wasn't cut short.

Lillard/Nurkic blazers got swept by Davis/Jrue in 2018. So the least LeBron can do is beat them in 5 with Davis. Not impressed at all with Lakers yet.

The stats show that AD was a much bigger contributor to the win... :confusedshrug:

The PER and win shares aren't even CLOSE

There's no debate.. it's AD's team.... Lebron's media... But AD's team... :applause:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The stats show that AD was a much bigger contributor to the win... :confusedshrug:

The PER and win shares aren't even CLOSE

There's no debate.. it's AD's team.... Lebron's media... But AD's team... :applause:

We will know for sure by the end of the 2nd round I think. Rockets are not going to roll over that easy like blazers. Blazers are like one of those east teams that LeBron would face in early rounds, they suck. So time will tell.

1st round is just a warm up unless you're facing a generational talent/elite coach like Mavs.

[imdaman99]

I think AD is better than him now, he's the guy that's impossible to stop. But Lebron will always be more important and thus, the MVP.

[3ball]

We will know for sure by the end of the 2nd round I think. Rockets are not going to roll over that easy like blazers. Blazers are like one of those east teams that LeBron would face in early rounds, they suck. So time will tell.

1st round is just a warm up unless you're facing a generational talent/elite coach like Mavs.

You think the Lakers can beat one of the better teams without AD completely dominating?

They'll need AD even more going forward

You need to understand how a playoff series works... It's a series of counter-moves... AD forced the first big counter-adjustment by dominating Game 2 - that made the Blazers cater their defense to him, which set the stage for the rest of the series.. this will occur in every series (AD establishing his dominance and the series progressing from there)

[Roundball_Rock]

I think AD is better than him now, he's the guy that's impossible to stop. But Lebron will always be more important and thus, the MVP.

Agreed on both points.

PER isn't a good stat to compare the two--LeBron will have a lot more turnovers as the team's playmaker/ballhandler. LeBron has a TOV percentage of 21%, Davis 5% as a result. BPM, VORP would be good but that data is not available yet.

[3ball]

I think AD is better than him now, he's the guy that's impossible to stop. But Lebron will always be more important and thus, the MVP.

You can't articulate why lebron is "more important"

It's just something you say, not something you can explain

Lakers were lottery without AD last year... I'm sure the Lakers wouldn't be that great without lebron either, but lebron is more replaceable by virtue of his lower production - a 31 PER is replaceable.. a 36 PER isn't.. or a 0.395 win share.. AD simply contributed to wins much more than lebron

[StrongLurk]

AD gets the edge because of Lebron's awful game two. AD was more consistent at imposing his will vs the Blazers than Lebron was.

With that being said, AD and Lebron are a clear case this year of 1a/1b...because even if AD might end up with better stats, the game nowadays is dominated by guards/playmakers (i.e. Lebron) and the Lakers have NO ONE ELSE to run the offense besides Lebron. If the Lakers lost AD, at least they'd have McGee and Howard as backups.

[3ball]

AD gets the edge because of Lebron's awful game two. AD was more consistent at imposing his will vs the Blazers than Lebron was.

With that being said, AD and Lebron are a clear case this year of 1a/1b...because even if AD might end up with better stats, the game nowadays is dominated by guards/playmakers (i.e. Lebron) and the Lakers have NO ONE ELSE to run the offense besides Lebron. If the Lakers lost AD, at least they'd have McGee and Howard as backups.
no team has anyone that can dominate like AD... Maybe Giannis - that's it

So AD is less replaceable

Otoh, numerous guys are equal or better than Lebron (Kawhi, harden, etc) and every team has a PG

Lots of guys can bring the ball up... Heck, Rondo would average 15/10/10 as starting PG and Kuzma would step up his scoring

Lakers were lottery without AD last year... I'm sure the Lakers wouldn't be that great without lebron either, but lebron is more replaceable by virtue of his lower production - a 31 PER is replaceable.. a 36 PER isn't.. or a 0.395 win share.. AD simply contributed to wins much more than lebron

[JohnMax]

AD is best player on Lakers and should be crowned best player in NBA if they win championship.

[AussieSteve]

The narrative has changed so much around AD for all the LeHaters. Predictable really.

He was a bird fed, no impact, empty stats guy a couple years ago. Now he's the best player in the league. So predictable.

Not down playing him. He's great, but come on.

Can someone please find out how many buckets AD made in the series that were NOT assisted or put backs? I'm pretty sure it was less than 10.

[PeroAntic]

If these were the finals stats I would have to give it to Lebron. I mean its a 30 point triple double ffs, on crazy efficiency while running the show. Yes AD makes it very easy for him, but AD has it even easier with Lebron. He just needs to finish.

[3ball]

If these were the finals stats I would have to give it to Lebron. I mean its a 30 point triple double ffs, on crazy efficiency while running the show. Yes AD makes it very easy for him, but AD has it even easier with Lebron. He just needs to finish.


based on replaceability - AD is more valuable because his stats and performance can't be matched by anyone, except maybe Giannis

otoh, numerous guys are getting lebron's stats and playing as well (kawhi, harden, luka, and more)

lebron is on that luka level (stats, ball-dominance) - AD is on the Giannis level (dominance)

[FromDowntown]

13 to 7

You lose idiot.

[3ball]

13 to 7

You lose idiot.

because there's more dumb lebron stans on the board than smart fans

but based on replaceability, AD is more valuable because his stats and performance can't be matched by anyone, except maybe Giannis

otoh, numerous guys are getting lebron's stats and playing as well (kawhi, harden, luka, and more)

lebron is on that luka level (stats, ball-dominance) - AD is on the Giannis level (dominance

[FromDowntown]

Birdfed

Isn't that the word you used?

AD needs to be BIRDFED by LeConductor?

2ez

Ducking your own words now OP?

[FromDowntown]

based on replaceability - AD is more valuable because his stats and performance can't be matched by anyone, except maybe Giannis

otoh, numerous guys are getting lebron's stats and playing as well (kawhi, harden, luka, and more)

lebron is on that luka level (stats, ball-dominance) - AD is on the Giannis level (dominance)

Wrong.

I want you to search every playoff series and see who else averaged 27-10-10 on 70% TS for an entire series.

Yep. Sorry. Only LBJ

R•E•C•O•R•D

We did it again
:hammertime:

[3ball]

Wrong.

I want you to search every playoff series and see who else averaged 27-10-10 on 70% TS for an entire series.

Yep. Sorry. Only LBJ

R•E•C•O•R•D

We did it again
:hammertime:

many guys did better than 27/10/10

harden did 33/8/7 and 32 PER... 0.348 WS/48

that blows lebron away

Luka and Kawhi also had better stats.

Otoh, AD is on the Giannis level... Only Giannis can match AD stats and dominance

[FromDowntown]

many guys did better than 27/10/10

harden did 33/8/7 and 32 PER... 0.348 WS/48

that blows lebron away

Luka and Kawhi also had better stats.

Otoh, AD is on the Giannis level... Only Giannis can match AD stats and dominance

Wrong.

I want you to search every playoff series and see who else averaged 27-10-10 on 70% TS for an entire series.

Yep. Sorry. Only LBJ

R•E•C•O•R•D

We did it again

:hammertime:

[3ball]

Wrong.

I want you to search every playoff series and see who else averaged 27-10-10 on 70% TS for an entire series.

Yep. Sorry. Only LBJ

R•E•C•O•R•D

We did it again

:hammertime:

Right, that's worse than Luka, Harden, and Kawhi

Lebron < Luka, Harden, Kawhi

AD => Giannis

[FromDowntown]

Right, that's worse than Luka, Harden, and Kawhi

Lebron < Luka, Harden, Kawhi

AD => Giannis

No one ever did it. Only James

:pimp:

We win again

:dancin

[AussieSteve]

But OP, you were right last year when you said AD was bird fed.

The stats from round 1 tell the story. More than 70% of his shots were assisted. That leaves 15 unassisted FGs for the entire series. If we also take his put backs into account (he had 15 offensive boards), he hit literally less than 2 unassisted buckets a game where he created his own shot.

What do you say to this?

[3ball]

But OP, you were right last year when you said AD was bird fed.

The stats from round 1 tell the story. More than 70% of his shots were assisted. That leaves 15 unassisted FGs for the entire series. If we also take his put backs into account (he had 15 offensive boards), he hit literally less than 2 unassisted buckets a game where he created his own shot.

What do you say to this?

Lebron is normally too ball-dominant and too UNASSISTED - he's too unassisted for a forward... AD corrects this suboptimal quality by being overly ASSISTED.. the two fit like hand and glove.

So AD turns a normally suboptimal style (Lebron-ball) and makes it optimal (his overly-assisted style fits with lebron's overly unassisted style)

they're lucky to have each other because otherwise they both underachieve due to their respective skill deficits (overly assisted or overly unassisted)

[AussieSteve]

AD turns a normally suboptimal style and makes it optimal

Lebron is normally overly ball-dominant and UNASSISTED - he's too unassisted for a forward... AD corrects this suboptimal quality by being overly ASSISTED.. the two fit like hand and glove.

AD and LeBron fit like a glove for sure (just like MJ and Pip btw). But by your own admission then, AD's stats are a product of a LeBron run offense.

[Shooter]

But OP, you were right last year when you said AD was bird fed.

The stats from round 1 tell the story. More than 70% of his shots were assisted. That leaves 15 unassisted FGs for the entire series. If we also take his put backs into account (he had 15 offensive boards), he hit literally less than 2 unassisted buckets a game where he created his own shot.

What do you say to this?

AussieGoat coming through with the hot facts

[3ball]

AD and LeBron fit like a glove for sure (just like MJ and Pip btw). But by your own admission then, AD's stats are a product of a LeBron run offense.
There's no fundamental hole in Jordan's game that Pippen filled, whereas Lebron and AD fill gaping holes in each other's game (on-ball, off-ball... assisted, unassisted)

And obviously, Pippen never out-produced Jordan... Infact, he never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series.. Jordan outscored pippen by 10-30 ppg in every series they played together.

In addition to carrying the goat scoring load, Jordan assisted 30% more often than Pippen (Jordan led in assist percentage 28 to 21%).. You forget that Jordan can't assist on his own shots and his volume was higher - so the number of available shots that he could assist on was lower - yet both MJ and Pippen got 6 APG, so MJ's assist percentage was much higher.. To summarize - MJ assisted much more often than Pippen (30% more often), while doubling Pippen in playoff scoring average.

Btw, Jordan also got more DPOY votes every year and guarded the opponent's best perimeter player as the primary defender (Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton, Miller, etc)

So Pippen didn't "compliment" Jordan like AD/Lebron - it's not remotely close..

[Shooter]

There's no fundamental hole in Jordan's game that Pippen filled, whereas Lebron and AD fill gaping holes in each other's game (on-ball, off-ball... assisted, unassisted)

And obviously, Pippen never out-produced Jordan... Infact, he never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series.. Jordan outscored pippen by 10-30 ppg in every series they played together.

In addition to carrying the goat scoring load, Jordan assisted 30% more often than Pippen (Jordan led in assist percentage 28 to 21%).. You forget that Jordan can't assist on his own shots and his volume was higher - so the number of available shots that he could assist on was lower - yet both MJ and Pippen got 6 APG, so MJ's assist percentage was much higher.. To summarize - MJ assisted much more often than Pippen (30% more often), while doubling Pippen in playoff scoring average.

Btw, Jordan also got more DPOY votes every year and guarded the opponent's best perimeter player as the primary defender (Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton, Miller, etc)

So Pippen didn't "compliment" Jordan like AD/Lebron - it's not remotely close..

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/zfVvq1dK/200.gif

[AussieSteve]

There's no fundamental hole in Jordan's game that Pippen filled, whereas Lebron and AD fill gaping holes in each other's game (on-ball, off-ball... assisted, unassisted)

And obviously, Pippen never out-produced Jordan... Infact, he never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series.. Jordan outscored pippen by 10-30 ppg in every series they played together.

In addition to carrying the goat scoring load, Jordan assisted 30% more often than Pippen (Jordan led in assist percentage 28 to 21%).. You forget that Jordan can't assist on his own shots and his volume was higher - so the number of available shots that he could assist on was lower - yet both MJ and Pippen got 6 APG, so MJ's assist percentage was much higher.. To summarize - MJ assisted much more often than Pippen (30% more often), while doubling Pippen in playoff scoring average.

Btw, Jordan also got more DPOY votes every year and guarded the opponent's best perimeter player as the primary defender (Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton, Miller, etc)

So Pippen didn't "compliment" Jordan like AD/Lebron - it's not remotely close..

But it IS close.

LeBron makes players around him score more. A team mate outscoring LeBron is potentially a measure of LeBron's success. The nature of his game makes his teammates look better and inflates their stats.

This wasn't part of Jordan's game. Jordan was the scorer who took by far the most shots. No one else eats when jordan goes off... he just gets 50 points. When LeBron goes off, AD might get 50.

You're not comparing apples to apples.

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/HxNhy62y/No_more_questions.png

[SATAN]

LeBron didn't even bother trying in one of those games lol. Stats don't really mean much here. LeBron has been more valuable all year.

[Gougou]

I think it is AD imo, even with a strong frontcourt of Whiteside and Nurikc, he still destroyed them.

[Vino24]

Does op know LeBron holds the goat per? Is he sure he wants to use that to evaluate a player? Lolol

[Shooter]

Does op know LeBron holds the goat per? Is he sure he wants to use that to evaluate a player? Lolol

A life of misery :lol

He cant hide from the goat no matter where he goes :lol

[k 96]

Who was the MVP of the 1st round, of the Blazers vs the Lakers series you ask? I'd say it was the ESPN Refs.

[3ball]

But it IS close.

LeBron makes players around him score more. A team mate outscoring LeBron is potentially a measure of LeBron's success. The nature of his game makes his teammates look better and inflates their stats.

This wasn't part of Jordan's game. Jordan was the scorer who took by far the most shots. No one else eats when jordan goes off... he just gets 50 points. When LeBron goes off, AD might get 50.

You're not comparing apples to apples.

Pippen played to capacity next to MJ - his stats in 94' were the same as his highs alongside MJ (22.0 and 5.6 apg in 94'... 21.0 and 7.0 in 92')

Pippen simply couldn't go off like AD... AD is the best on his team, while Pippen was a distant 2nd and occasionally the 3rd or 4th

Pippen wasn't capable of "going off" regardless of who was on the floor

AD averaged 30/10/4 with goat PER against the Blazers, while Pippen averaged 15/5/4 on 39% in the 93' 1st Round... Or 16/6/5 on 39% on the 97' 1st Round... Or Pippen was outscored by Kukoc in the 95' 1st Round

So don't compare Pippen to AD.... Pippen is a role player compared to AD... Apples and oranges

And again, Jordan led the bulls in assists and assist percentage.. he assisted 30% more often than Pippen and scored twice as much.. Pippen was a role player... A 16/6/5 glue guy with horrible efficiency

[sdot_thadon]

I'd say Lebron, although AD was pretty impressive during the series. I see a Magic/Kareem dynamic budding between the 2 and that will make it nearly impossible to say who's more important at some point. But this series in a vacuum? The Lakers offense as a whole was broken and Lebron got them in gear, Ad played some great individual ball but he wont often be the catalyst for the rest of the team's offense like Lebron is.

[StrongLurk]

no team has anyone that can dominate like AD... Maybe Giannis - that's it

So AD is less replaceable

Otoh, numerous guys are equal or better than Lebron (Kawhi, harden, etc) and every team has a PG

Lots of guys can bring the ball up... Heck, Rondo would average 15/10/10 as starting PG and Kuzma would step up his scoring

Lakers were lottery without AD last year... I'm sure the Lakers wouldn't be that great without lebron either, but lebron is more replaceable by virtue of his lower production - a 31 PER is replaceable.. a 36 PER isn't.. or a 0.395 win share.. AD simply contributed to wins much more than lebron

This is a terrible post on all accounts. We are talking about reality here and the players currently on the Lakers...other players in the league have nothing to do with the Lakers current team.

Lebron is LESS REPLACEABLE on this Lakers team than AD is due to the makeup of the team.

Rondo wouldn't come close to averaging those numbers you stated AND he is injured all the time.

[3ball]

This is a terrible post on all accounts. We are talking about reality here and the players currently on the Lakers...other players in the league have nothing to do with the Lakers current team.

Lebron is LESS REPLACEABLE on this Lakers team than AD is due to the makeup of the team.

Rondo wouldn't come close to averaging those numbers you stated AND he is injured all the time.

Lakers were lottery with Lebron and Ingram... Only AD saved them

[3ball]

This is a terrible post on all accounts. We are talking about reality here and the players currently on the Lakers...other players in the league have nothing to do with the Lakers current team.

Lebron is LESS REPLACEABLE on this Lakers team than AD is due to the makeup of the team.

Rondo wouldn't come close to averaging those numbers you stated AND he is injured all the time.

You're forgetting that AD was the guy that started the adjustments and counter-adjustments in the series

he went off in Game 2, so the Blazers had to adjust, and the Lakers counter-adjusted, and the Blazers counter-countered..

But it started with AD and that's how EVERY series will be - AD will be the guy that establishes the Lakers and the adjustment battle starts with him.. Otoh, Lebron is just a PG - just a dribbler - he's just the guy that brings the ball up court - no adjustments needed, especially since he doesn't "take over" or "get hot" - he lacks the pure scoring and jumpshooting skill for that, so there's no need to throw guys at him.. just let him dribble, like Stan Van Gundy said

[Roundball_Rock]

Does op know LeBron holds the goat per? Is he sure he wants to use that to evaluate a player? Lolol

:lol

Here are the 10 highest playoff run PER's:


Rank Player PER Year

1. Donovan Mitchell 39.25 2020
2. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988
3. LeBron James 37.39 2009
4. Jamal Murray 36.97 2020
5. Anthony Davis 36.81 2020
6. George Mikan* 33.58 1954
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977
8. LeBron James 32.24 2018
9. LeBron James 32.19 2020
10. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991

So 20' LeBron who is downplaying is ahead of peak MJ, in his preferred metric. :oldlol:

[3ball]

:lol

Here are the 10 highest playoff run PER's:


Rank Player PER Year

1. Donovan Mitchell 39.25 2020
2. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988
3. LeBron James 37.39 2009
4. Jamal Murray 36.97 2020
5. Anthony Davis 36.81 2020
6. George Mikan* 33.58 1954
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977
8. LeBron James 32.24 2018
9. LeBron James 32.19 2020
10. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991

So 20' LeBron who is downplaying is ahead of peak MJ, in his preferred metric. :oldlol:

Im sure Jordan had a playoff series with 33+ PER but we don't have that data - we only have full season PER's

And MJ had the highest PER ever to win it all.. and highest career PER... no surprise.. goat gonna goat

Btw, Jordan's preferred stat is BPM, PER, WS/48, PPG, VORP seasons, ortg. (#1 in all)

[Vino24]

:lol

Here are the 10 highest playoff run PER's:


Rank Player PER Year

1. Donovan Mitchell 39.25 2020
2. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988
3. LeBron James 37.39 2009
4. Jamal Murray 36.97 2020
5. Anthony Davis 36.81 2020
6. George Mikan* 33.58 1954
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977
8. LeBron James 32.24 2018
9. LeBron James 32.19 2020
10. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991

So 20' LeBron who is downplaying is ahead of peak MJ, in his preferred metric. :oldlol:
Tough pill to swallow for 3ball

[TheCorporation]

:lol

Here are the 10 highest playoff run PER's:


Rank Player PER Year

1. Donovan Mitchell 39.25 2020
2. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988
3. LeBron James 37.39 2009
4. Jamal Murray 36.97 2020
5. Anthony Davis 36.81 2020
6. George Mikan* 33.58 1954
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977
8. LeBron James 32.24 2018
9. LeBron James 32.19 2020
10. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991

So 20' LeBron who is downplaying is ahead of peak MJ, in his preferred metric. :oldlol:

Thru Finals = LeBron #1
14 game minimum = LeBron #1

[TheCorporation]

Imagine making a thread about one playoff series and still having the wrong #s :roll:

This is why no one takes you seriously anymore. LeBron's PER was 32.2 vs Blazers.

[FromDowntown]

Hammy says LeBron:

https://i.postimg.cc/prNHZTQj/Hammy-Again.png

Even put Jrue Holiday over AD

[StrongLurk]

Looks like AD was better in game 1 vs the Rockets.