Where are all the chumps that disrespected Middleton?

[ArbitraryWater]

Show yourself.

You‘re wrong.

Not just did he ball out, he took on big time responsibility.

[RRR3]

He’s not even better than Mo Williams according to ImKobe

[ImKobe]

12/28 FG, 0 points in the 4th :kobe:

[Gohan]

12/28 FG, 0 points in the 4th :kobe:

Nothing wrong with that somebody needs to Chuck. That’s what they need a chucker

[AirBonner]

12/28 FG, 0 points in the 4th :kobe:

He assisted on a couple really nice plays and grabbed rebounds. There is more to the game than ppg but I don’t expect a simpleton like you to understand

[Ghost1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_474EuksKUs


LeGM recruiting Middleton was no a coincidence afterall

:crazysam:

[CelticBaller]

G Anus has no excuses

[Bronbron23]

Show yourself.

You‘re wrong.

Not just did he ball out, he took on big time responsibility.

Its one game. Teams haven't schemed to stop the bucs with him as the guy and greek out. They play completely different. Let teams scheme for that and bucs woukd get crushed on a regular.

[ArbitraryWater]

Its one game. Teams haven't schemed to stop the bucs with him as the guy and greek out. They play completely different. Let teams scheme for that and bucs woukd get crushed on a regular.

Well duh, Middleton also needs help, and someone to play off of.

[FromDowntown]

He’s not even better than Mo Williams according to ImKobe

That guy needs to be banned and hop onto another alt he has some of the worst takes I've ever seen.

[AussieSteve]

What's the agenda for people who want to under rate Middleton? LeBron related somehow I assume.

[NBAGOAT]

What's the agenda for people who want to under rate Middleton? LeBron related somehow I assume.

09 cavs cast vs these bucks was a discussion in the game thread. Started innocently enough but involving bron ended up going pages about how good Middleton and Lopez and mo and delonte were. Also people started comparing the 09 magic to the current heat

[light]

Show yourself.

You‘re wrong.

Not just did he ball out, he took on big time responsibility.

Okay but they're still down 3-1 and will he do it again? Probably not.

[light]

What's the agenda for people who want to under rate Middleton? LeBron related somehow I assume.

It seems to be Bucks fans that want Middelton to suck so they can say Giannis deserves MVP because Middleton is a nobody.

[Roundball_Rock]

What's the agenda for people who want to under rate Middleton? LeBron related somehow I assume.

LeBron fans seem to be the ones most pushing Middleton on ISH, presumably because of the MVP battle between Giannis and LeBron.

Middleton is compared unfavorably to superstar "sidekicks" like Davis, Westbrook, and George on the other top teams. No one says he sucks, just that he is a top 20-25 type player and not what those other guys are.

He was magnificent yesterday but it is one game. Let's see what happens over a larger sample.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron fans seem to be the ones most pushing Middleton on ISH, presumably because of the MVP battle between Giannis and LeBron.

Middleton is compared unfavorably to superstar "sidekicks" like Davis, Westbrook, and George on the other top teams. No one says he sucks, just that he is a top 20-25 type player and not what those other guys are.

He was magnificent yesterday but it is one game. Let's see what happens over a larger sample.

This.

Go back and look at the 2nd best players on most title teams. He's on the lower end. He's better than Terry or really young Parker, but just a quick sample of recent years.

19 - Lowry (and a loaded team capable of winning nearly 60 and potentially multiple playoff series without Leonard)
18 - Curry (I don't want to argue Curry vs Durant)
17 - Curry
16 - Kyrie
15 - Klay or Green (loaded roster)
14 - Duncan (I don't know...loaded team with proven champs)
13 - Wade
12 - Wade
11 - Terry (anomaly, Dirk was amazing.. but also had a bunch of vets that played great)
10 - Gasol
09 - Gasol
08 - Pierce
07 - Parker/Manu
06 - Shaq
05 - Manu/Parker
04 - Billups (I don't know Ben probably their most valuable player...but loaded team up top)
03 - Parker (anomaly...Duncan was amazing)
02 - Kobe
01 - Kobe
00 - Kobe
99 - Robinson
98 - Pippen
97 - Pippen
96 - Pippen
95 - Clyde
94 - Max? (anomaly..Hakeem was amazing)
93 - Pippen
92 - Pippen
91 - Pippen

Doesn't matter how you slice it...Middleton, while being a very good player who I've been high on for years, is on the lower end of championship 2nd guys...doesn't mean it is impossible to win with a guy like him...it does happen, but it is also pretty rare.

It doesn't excuse Giannis playing poorly in this series...and it doesn't take anything away from yesterday as that was really impressive, but one game doesn't make a guy on par with the likes of Wade/Kobe/Pierce/Manu/Gasol/Pippen...etc.

And without that reliable 2nd guy...teams that overachieve in the regular season have some weird things happen to them in the playoffs...because you better either have close to the best players or do something special if you want to win in the playoffs in the NBA.

[Roundball_Rock]

This.

Go back and look at the 2nd best players on most title teams. He's on the lower end. He's better than Terry or really young Parker, but just a quick sample of recent years.

19 - Lowry (and a loaded team capable of winning nearly 60 and potentially multiple playoff series without Leonard)
18 - Curry (I don't want to argue Curry vs Durant)
17 - Curry
16 - Kyrie
15 - Klay or Green (loaded roster)
14 - Duncan (I don't know...loaded team with proven champs)
13 - Wade
12 - Wade
11 - Terry (anomaly, Dirk was amazing.. but also had a bunch of vets that played great)
10 - Gasol
09 - Gasol
08 - Pierce
07 - Parker/Manu
06 - Shaq
05 - Manu/Parker
04 - Billups (I don't know Ben probably their most valuable player...but loaded team up top)
03 - Parker (anomaly...Duncan was amazing)
02 - Kobe
01 - Kobe
00 - Kobe
99 - Robinson
98 - Pippen
97 - Pippen
96 - Pippen
95 - Clyde
94 - Max? (anomaly..Hakeem was amazing)
93 - Pippen
92 - Pippen
91 - Pippen

Doesn't matter how you slice it...Middleton, while being a very good player who I've been high on for years, is on the lower end of championship 2nd guys...doesn't mean it is impossible to win with a guy like him...it does happen, but it is also pretty rare.

It doesn't excuse Giannis playing poorly in this series...and it doesn't take anything away from yesterday as that was really impressive, but one game doesn't make a guy on par with the likes of Wade/Kobe/Pierce/Manu/Gasol/Pippen...etc.

And without that reliable 2nd guy...teams that overachieve in the regular season have some weird things happen to them in the playoffs...because you better either have close to the best players or do something special if you want to win in the playoffs in the NBA.

Agreed. The list is revealing. Look at the categories they fall in as players:

HOF: all of them except for 11', 94'. 04' if you consider Hamilton the #2 and not Billups.
MVP caliber: Curry, Wade, Kobe, Robinson, Pippen, Drexler.
All-NBA: all of them except 11', 94'. 04' another exception if you use Hamilton and not Wallace or Billups as the #2.
All-star: all of them, except 94' and 11'--and 94' would be an all-star if you count Otis Thorpe as the sidekick.

Middleton falls in the "all-star" category since he has never been all-NBA. He is a 2x all-star, 0x all-NBA and he is 28 years old. It is highly unlikely he will wind up a HOF player.

Also look at the sidekicks on runner ups during that time frame. How many of them is Middleton better than? You would have to reach back to the 00's and 90's to find players comparable to Middleton or worse than him like Lewis or Starks. In the past decade its been these guys:

2019: Klay (Curry the de facto #1 since KD basically didn't play)
2018: Love
2017: Irving
2016: Klay
2015: Irving (Smith for most of the finals but they aren't in the finals if Smith was their #2 the entire PO)
2014: Kawhi? Duncan? (Hard to say, Spurs lacked a clear a hierarchy among all their HOFers)
2013: Parker?
2012: Westbrook
2011: Wade
2010: Pierce

Middleton clearly is worse than all of these players.

[tpols]

Middleton balled out last night, but he really isn't having a good playoffs. He's shooting a flat 40% from the field while other guys are going off, and sporting a weak 103 ORTG. He was much better in previous years in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Agreed. The list is revealing. Look at the categories they fall in:

HOF: all of them except for 11', 94'. 04' if you consider Hamilton the #2 and not Billups.
MVP caliber: Curry, Wade, Kobe, Robinson, Pippen, Drexler.
All-NBA: all of them except 11', 94'. 04' another exception if you use Hamilton and not Wallace or Billups as the #2.
All-star: all of them, except 94' and 11'--and 94' would be an all-star if you count Otis Thorpe as the sidekick.

Middleton falls in the "all-star" category since he has never been all-NBA. He is a 2x all-star, 0x all-NBA and he is 28 years old. It is highly unlikely he will wind up a HOF player.

Also look at the sidekicks on runner ups during that time frame. How many of them is Middleton better than? You would have to reach back to the 00's and 90's to find players comparable to Middleton. In the past decade its been these guys:

2019: Klay (Curry the de facto #1 since KD basically didn't play)
2018: Love
2017: Irving
2016: Klay
2015: Irving (Smith for most of the finals but they aren't in the finals if Smith was their #2 the entire PO)
2014: Kawhi? Duncan? (Hard to say, Spurs lacked a clear a hierarchy among all their HOFers)
2013: Parker?
2012: Westbrook
2011: Wade
2010: Pierce

Middleton clearly is worse than all of these players.

Yep.

I don't understand why this is even ever debated. Is it actually a surprise that the teams with the best players win the most in the playoffs? It is the least surprising thing ever.

And, look, that doesn't mean that certain groupings of guys aren't better than their individual levels, but I'm so sick of hearing all these single star teams without elite help being referred to as their regular season win totals in an effort to frame the conversation. Was seeing that in thread yesterday about Dirk in 07...people just calling them a "67 win team"...not mentioning the players...players matter. On that regular season win analysis...the 07 Mavericks were as good as or a better team than all the Durant Warriors teams.

Same shit happened to Lebron in 09 and 10. He gets penalized for getting to 66 and 61 wins with nobody noteworthy...then loses...and it is..."oh my god, he had a 66 win team"...like his help is as good as what Curry has had recently. Just annoying.

[RRR3]

Middleton balled out last night, but he really isn't having a good playoffs. He's shooting a flat 40% from the field while other guys are going off, and sporting a weak 103 ORTG. He was much better in previous years in the playoffs.
He’s been great against the Heat. He was bad against the Magic but who cares?

[DMAVS41]

Middleton balled out last night, but he really isn't having a good playoffs. He's shooting a flat 40% from the field while other guys are going off, and sporting a weak 103 ORTG. He was much better in previous years in the playoffs.

In fairness, he wasn't good against the Raptors last year...and most of what you are talking about comes from the 5 rather meaningless games in the first round.

He's at a 114 ortg in this series.

But, I understand your point...consistency is something often just ignored for these types of guys in an effort to make them look better game to game than they really are.

[ArbitraryWater]

He’s been great against the Heat. He was bad against the Magic but who cares?


Exactly.

Who cares if he was meh against a team they blew out 4 straight times by 15 pts when there is no urgency/necessity?

[ArbitraryWater]

Agreed. The list is revealing. Look at the categories they fall in as players:

HOF: all of them except for 11', 94'. 04' if you consider Hamilton the #2 and not Billups.
MVP caliber: Curry, Wade, Kobe, Robinson, Pippen, Drexler.
All-NBA: all of them except 11', 94'. 04' another exception if you use Hamilton and not Wallace or Billups as the #2.
All-star: all of them, except 94' and 11'--and 94' would be an all-star if you count Otis Thorpe as the sidekick.

Middleton falls in the "all-star" category since he has never been all-NBA. He is a 2x all-star, 0x all-NBA and he is 28 years old. It is highly unlikely he will wind up a HOF player.

Also look at the sidekicks on runner ups during that time frame. How many of them is Middleton better than? You would have to reach back to the 00's and 90's to find players comparable to Middleton or worse than him like Lewis or Starks. In the past decade its been these guys:

2019: Klay (Curry the de facto #1 since KD basically didn't play)
2018: Love
2017: Irving
2016: Klay
2015: Irving (Smith for most of the finals but they aren't in the finals if Smith was their #2 the entire PO)
2014: Kawhi? Duncan? (Hard to say, Spurs lacked a clear a hierarchy among all their HOFers)
2013: Parker?
2012: Westbrook
2011: Wade
2010: Pierce

Middleton clearly is worse than all of these players.

the same applies for 2019 btw. should put KD there.

Also I'd say KG was 2nd best in 2010, and Rondo best.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't understand why this is even ever debated. Is it actually a surprise that the teams with the best players win the most in the playoffs? It is the least surprising thing ever.

Yup. :lol I suppose it is because basketball fans want to act like it is a one man sport and give all the credit, or nearly all the credit, to one player and hence the rest of the team is devalued. We don't see this in any other sport.


Was seeing that in thread yesterday about Dirk in 07...people just calling them a "67 win team"...not mentioning the players...players matter. On that regular season win analysis...the 07 Mavericks were as good as or a better team than all the Durant Warriors teams.

Same shit happened to Lebron in 09 and 10. He gets penalized for getting to 66 and 61 wins with nobody noteworthy...then loses...and it is..."oh my god, he had a 66 win team"...like his help is as good as what Curry has had recently. Just annoying.

Yeah, people seem allergic to context. Those 60+ win teams aren't the same as the Warriors' or the 90's Bulls or 80's Lakers, etc.

People can hype Middleton but it all boils down to this: do you believe you can you win a chip with him as your second best player?

[tpols]

He’s been great against the Heat. He was bad against the Magic but who cares?

that is true... I guess we'll see how he does going forward.

[DMAVS41]

Yup. :lol I suppose it is because basketball fans want to act like it is a one man sport and give all the credit, or nearly all the credit, to one player and hence the rest of the team is devalued. We don't see this in any other sport.



Yeah, people seem allergic to context. Those 60+ win teams aren't the same as the Warriors' or the 90's Bulls or 80's Lakers, etc.

People can hype Middleton but it all boils down to this: do you believe you can you win a chip with him as your second best player?

Yep.

And the answer to the bold would be...yes, about once a decade if you have an all-time great playing at an even higher level than expected. :oldlol: Which then becomes more about other things than the level of your 2nd best guy imo.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yep.

And the answer to the bold would be...yes, about once a decade if you have an all-time great playing at an even higher level than expected. :oldlol: Which then becomes more about other things than the level of your 2nd best guy imo.

Yup. :lol So they can make the argument that Giannis should be able to do what Dirk, Duncan, Hakeem, Rick Barry did and win anyway but that isn't the argument we hear from Giannis detractors (partly because their favorites didn't do it without HOF "sidekicks"). They present Middleton as a perfectly competent #2 option in today's era. He is that--for a playoff team--but not for a championship or even finals team.

Look at what the Clippers did. They gave up SGA, Gallo, and a decade's worth of draft picks because they didn't think Kawhi + SGA, Gallo, Williams, Harrell is enough to win a chip, that they needed a second superstar. Williams/SGA/Gallo/Harrell is a lot more firepower than Middleton/Bledsoe/Lopez.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

5/15
5tos
4 fouls committed

:roll::roll:

[Stanley Kobrick]

great playoffs for middleon. top 20 all-star and nba legend