Van Gundy said the original IT would average 30 in today's game

[Marchesk]

No hand-checking and lots of shooters mean Zeke would ball out in today's era.

BTW, 23 year old Thomas averaged 13.9 apg and 2.3 steals in 85 along with 21.2 ppg. :bowdown:

I'm curious, Pippen or Zeke all-time rankings?

[FromDowntown]

Time for bed LeBron hater.

ZzzZzz

[Vino24]

Apparently everyone in the fvcking 90’s would average 30ppg in today’s game lolol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The fat shit who got fired by Pat Riley before his team won a title in 2006? Or the midget who likes crawling on players legs during a playoff scuffle?

Both Jeff and Stan are idiots. I wouldn't pay much attention to either one.

[Roundball_Rock]

For reference, Thomas never averaged more than 22.9 when he played and was top 20 in scoring three times (12th, 18th, 19th). That is what VG is saying would become 30 PPG today, which would place him right behind Harden as a scorer today.

[NBAGOAT]

yea no isiah scored over 20 mostly on those fast pistons teams in pretty big minutes. dont think his jumper is nearly good enough unless he's on a really bad team. Isiah peaked at around 27pts/100. dame who scored 30 this year while being one of the few guys who played big minutes was at 38 pts/100. yea era adjustments are a thing but is a change in era from the 80s ,not the 90s or early 00s, really adding 40% in scoring production. I will take pippen over zeke but know that'll be controversial here

[goozeman]

Sure, why not? Ironically, Thomas is probably the only guy from that era that got beat up more going to the rim than Jordan. Thomas's first step off the dribble is probably the best ever, so before the Jordan Rules teams were going after Thomas the same way. Nobody ever talks about that though. Part of the reason why Detroit felt justified in beating the ever-living crap out of Jordan was because their star player got beat up all the time by the rest of the league. Give Thomas a hesitation dribble, sprinkle in some freedom of movement, no hand checking, gather step of two from half court, etc... pretty easy to see how he'd be unstoppable.

[1987_Lakers]

Van Gundy also added "And all the shooting today" as a point to why Isiah would average 30 today, but Isiah's jumper wasn't great at all, he was a streaky shooter.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is comical to see the same posters flip flop thread to thread on whether 80's/90's players would score 10 PPG more or 8 PPG less, depending on the agenda at a given moment, if transported to 2020. :lol


I will take pippen over zeke but know that'll be controversial here

OP is in the 1-9 mafia--has to incorporate Pippen into every thread. He doesn't mean the question in a serious way.

[goozeman]

Van Gundy also added "And all the shooting today" as a point to why Isiah would average 30 today, but Isiah's jumper wasn't great at all, he was a streaky shooter.

30 is the new 20 now. It should be obvious by now. Already been something like 60 30 point games this playoffs. In the 80's you might get 50 such games the entire playoffs. Not that big of deal if Thomas got 30 today. This era doesn't play defense and the league encourages wild scoring. He probably wouldn't just because of the flow of the game, etc, but could he? Yes.

[NBAGOAT]

30 is the new 20 now. It should be obvious by now. Already been something like 60 30 point games this playoffs. In the 80's you might get 50 such games the entire playoffs. Not that big of deal if Thomas got 30 today. This era doesn't play defense and the league encourages wild scoring. He probably wouldn't just because of the flow of the game, etc, but could he? Yes.

Jordan clarkson could score 30 in a game, doing so for one game doesn’t mean shit. Tons of guys during the 80s could put up 30 for a game too, some teams had 3 who could. All that matters is how well you score over a meaningful sample size.

[bladefd]

Van Gundy also added "And all the shooting today" as a point to why Isiah would average 30 today, but Isiah's jumper wasn't great at all, he was a streaky shooter.

He was very good at driving into the paint ala Westbrook. If Westbrook can average 30, Zeke can too. Zeke would also be shooting 10 free-throws a game to increase his ppg

[Marchesk]

It is comical to see the same posters flip flop thread to thread on whether 80's/90's players would score 10 PPG more or 8 PPG less, depending on the agenda at a given moment, if transported to 2020. :lol

Van Gundy and Mark Jackson post here?


OP is in the 1-9 mafia--has to incorporate Pippen into every thread. He doesn't mean the question in a serious way.

I do have Lebron #2 behind Jordan (ahead of Wilt, btw). I bring Pippen sometimes for the lulz, since Pippen gets mentioned every other thread, with dozens of players being time travelled to to the 94 Bulls in his place.

[Sarcastic]

You have to realize that Isiah spent his entire high school and college career with the 3 point shot not even existing. His first NBA game was the first time he ever played in a game with a 3 point line.

If he came up in today, you can be sure he would practice his outside shooting/3 point shooting much more.

[goozeman]

Jordan clarkson could score 30 in a game, doing so for one game doesnÂ’t mean shit. Tons of guys during the 80s could put up 30 for a game too, some teams had 3 who could. All that matters is how well you score over a meaningful sample size.

The entirety of the playoffs in the 80's vs a barely over a round in 2020 seems like a pretty insightful comparison... It's easier to score now. Any great offensive player from another era would put up bigger numbers today. Would he get to 30? I don't know... but it doesn't seem too impossible. I wouldn't bet against it if Zeke were on a bad team and forced to put up a lot of attempts. In that scenario, he'd probably get 30 per game on some team today. Like I said, 30 is starting to be the new 20, if it isn't already.

[NBAGOAT]

The entirety of the playoffs in the 80's vs a barely over a round in 2020 seems like a pretty insightful comparison... It's easier to score now. Any great offensive player from another era would put up bigger numbers today. Would he get to 30? I don't know... but it doesn't seem too impossible. I wouldn't bet against it if Zeke were on a bad team and forced to put up a lot of attempts. In that scenario, he'd probably get 30 per game on some team today. Like I said, 30 is starting to be the new 20, if it isn't already.

Well obviously “your estimates” of 60 30 pt playoff games during the whole 80s decade and 50 30 pt games just in this years playoffs isn’t close to accurate.

Provide the actual data and we’ll see if 30 is actually the new 20. I could say 25 is the new 20 and that’s an equally valid view since neither of us have provided actual evidence

[1987_Lakers]

He was very good at driving into the paint ala Westbrook. If Westbrook can average 30, Zeke can too. Zeke would also be shooting 10 free-throws a game to increase his ppg

Zeke didn't have Westbrook's athletic ability, not even close. I believe Isiah was a better player, but in terms of driving to the paint Westbrook is superior in that department.

And again, here we have the same people thinking 80's defense was any better. Teams in 1985 averaged 111 ppg compared to 112 ppg in today's NBA, it's almost comical how so many posters here don't know their history. Isiah peaked as a player in the "no defense" 80's and was a 21-22 ppg player and all of a sudden he is dropping 30 ppg in today's league? GTFO.

[1987_Lakers]

The entirety of the playoffs in the 80's vs a barely over a round in 2020 seems like a pretty insightful comparison... It's easier to score now. Any great offensive player from another era would put up bigger numbers today. Would he get to 30? I don't know... but it doesn't seem too impossible. I wouldn't bet against it if Zeke were on a bad team and forced to put up a lot of attempts. In that scenario, he'd probably get 30 per game on some team today. Like I said, 30 is starting to be the new 20, if it isn't already.

1985 scoring average: 111 ppg
2020 scoring average: 112 ppg

How is 30 the new 20?

[goozeman]

You have to realize that Isiah spent his entire high school and college career with the 3 point shot not even existing. His first NBA game was the first time he ever played in a game with a 3 point line.

If he came up in today, you can be sure he would practice his outside shooting/3 point shooting much more.

It just amazes me how casually dismissive some of the posters are on this forum of players from previous generations just because they didn't shoot the 3 back then. Isiah could literally do almost everything else better than any PG alive today, but he wouldn't figure out how to develop an 3-pointer. :rolleyes:

Isiah Thomas made the all-star team his first 12 seasons in the league, played 36+ minutes per night and 80+ games damn near every season for over a decade. He was a fricking machine with the highest motor and work ethic we've probably ever seen from the PG position. But, nah, he's not going to work on his three at all. He's just going to suck at that one skill and never develop an outside game because reasons. :blah

[iamgine]

The problem with re-imagining of players is the player become something they're not.

If IT grew up today and has a great 3s, who's to say he'd still be a great slasher or passer? Who knows if he'd be a good leader?

[GimmeThat]

right, but 13 years in the league for an ALL-NBA is now considered a short career

[goozeman]

1985 scoring average: 111 ppg
2020 scoring average: 112 ppg

How is 30 the new 20?

You have to look at how the league is trending. In 1985 about half the teams were scoring at least 110 points. Now half teams are scoring 112 points or more, which is much bigger gap than the overall average. 1985 was also the peak in scoring for that era after the merger, and then the scoring began to drop off immediately after that season. But the 2020's appears to just be getting started and has been trending up. The scoring is unprecedented anyway you slice it. There are other reasons why I think Zeke would score a lot more in this era, however, and one of those is that teams manage their stars a lot differently in this era than they did back in the 80's. A player of Zeke's caliber would be a huge draw to any market and teams would try to showcase him more. The rules today are really designed to do just that and allow smaller market teams to develop exciting players. I'm not saying he would get 30. I'm just saying it is easier to score today, and I think he could do it.

[goozeman]

Well obviously “your estimates” of 60 30 pt playoff games during the whole 80s decade and 50 30 pt games just in this years playoffs isn’t close to accurate.

Provide the actual data and we’ll see if 30 is actually the new 20. I could say 25 is the new 20 and that’s an equally valid view since neither of us have provided actual evidence

I was referring to 1984 season, not the entirety of the 80's. That was the first year of expanded playoffs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I was referring to 1984 season, not the entirety of the 80's. That was the first year of expanded playoffs.

Isiah isn't averaging 10 more a game.

That's a 10 point jump from his prime averages. He would be taking close to 25-26 shots a night, which is about 5 more than Beard AKA the better scorer. There isn't enough possessions to gain that kind of steam, period. 4 maybe 5 extra points could be attainable though because of freethrows. Might be more than that too if we're talking about an isolated playoff run. Isiah's career high for a run was 27, so again, 30 on good efficiency is conceivable under a small time frame.

[Roundball_Rock]

And again, here we have the same people thinking 80's defense was any better. Teams in 1985 averaged 111 ppg compared to 112 ppg in today's NBA, it's almost comical how so many posters here don't know their history. Isiah peaked as a player in the "no defense" 80's and was a 21-22 ppg player and all of a sudden he is dropping 30 ppg in today's league? GTFO.

:oldlol: good points. People conflate the 90's and 00's where scoring was down with the 80's which had high scoring.


That's a 10 point jump from his prime averages. He would be taking close to 25-26 shots a night, which is about 5 more than Beard AKA the better scorer. There isn't enough possessions to gain that kind of steam, period.

It also ignores roles. Isiah was a PG. No team is going to ask Isiah to take 25-26 shots.

[Turbo Slayer]

Chris Paul is still better as a player.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: good points. People conflate the 90's and 00's where scoring was down with the 80's which had high scoring.



It also ignores roles. Isiah was a PG. No team is going to ask Isiah to take 25-26 shots.

Good point.

Some of these dude's today are "positionless" though. Look at Dame. Yeah he's technically Portland's point, but you know he isn't shy about chucking.

[r0drig0lac]

like all perimeter players, he would score more in better efficiency, the more he scored is already a question of how much talent they would put around him.

[FKAri]

It's easier to score now. Any great offensive player from another era would put up bigger numbers today.
Wouldn't say everyone. Today's era rewards quickness and shooting more so than in the past. So guys who excelled in those areas are going to get bigger boosts. I don't think bruisers or post guys are going to get much of a boost.

[bladefd]

Zeke didn't have Westbrook's athletic ability, not even close. I believe Isiah was a better player, but in terms of driving to the paint Westbrook is superior in that department.

And again, here we have the same people thinking 80's defense was any better. Teams in 1985 averaged 111 ppg compared to 112 ppg in today's NBA, it's almost comical how so many posters here don't know their history. Isiah peaked as a player in the "no defense" 80's and was a 21-22 ppg player and all of a sudden he is dropping 30 ppg in today's league? GTFO.

80s defense was better and definitely much more physical

[1987_Lakers]

80s defense was better and definitely much more physical

Physcial? Yes, better? LOL.

Teams averaged 110 ppg on 50% shooting in the mid 80's, how is that good?

[Basketball IQ]

The entirety of the playoffs in the 80's vs a barely over a round in 2020 seems like a pretty insightful comparison... It's easier to score now. Any great offensive player from another era would put up bigger numbers today. Would he get to 30? I don't know... but it doesn't seem too impossible. I wouldn't bet against it if Zeke were on a bad team and forced to put up a lot of attempts. In that scenario, he'd probably get 30 per game on some team today. Like I said, 30 is starting to be the new 20, if it isn't already.

You are basically saying that Zeke is on the level of Harden, KD, Steph, Beal, Damian, Westbrook, and Wade when it comes to scoring, he is not. I would argue that CP3 is a much better scorer than Zeke was.

[Basketball IQ]

Physcial? Yes, better? LOL.

Teams averaged 110 ppg on 50% shooting in the mid 80's, how is that good?

People also forget to mention the pace that teams played with back then compared to now.

[Kblaze8855]

With Trae doing 30 a game in only 35 minutes I suppose we have to ask if he and Westbrook are arguably GOAT tier scorers at the position or are we taking credit for doing it in this environment. When you look at guys like Trae, Westbrook, IT and so on doing 27-32ppg in recent years it’s not unreasonable to speculate what would be possible among a lot of guys who peaked in the 22-24 range in previous times.

The league itself can be better if you want to believe that....it was be better and still offer more individual chances to people of some skill sets. I don’t know how you keep Kevin Johnson out of the lane with all this spacing. He had games with 18-20 free throws back then. He’s either at the line like Harden or taking 12 layups a game even without having a jumper.

And he played on a team that did play as fast as teams now...but his half court scoring would be so much easier. You would turn a lot of pass first guys to scorers just off the opportunities on switches.

Let those old guards run 40 screens to get matched up on some big at will. It’s hard to say what the statistics would be. But it would be....different.

[Basketball IQ]

With Trae doing 30 a game in only 35 minutes I suppose we have to ask if he and Westbrook are arguably GOAT tier scorers at the position or are we taking credit for doing it in this environment. When you look at guys like Trae, Westbrook, IT and so on doing 27-32ppg in recent years it’s not unreasonable to speculate what would be possible among a lot of guys who peaked in the 22-24 range in previous times.

The league itself can be better if you want to believe that....it was be better and still offer more individual chances to people of some skill sets. I don’t know how you keep Kevin Johnson out of the lane with all this spacing. He had games with 18-20 free throws back then. He’s either at the line like Harden or taking 12 layups a game even without having a jumper.

And he played on a team that did play as fast as teams now...but his half court scoring would be so much easier. You would turn a lot of pass first guys to scorers just off the opportunities on switches.

Let those old guards run 40 screens to get matched up on some big at will. It’s hard to say what the statistics would be. But it would be....different.

The problem is Zeke did not have the offensive arsenal that Trae, Westbrook, IT, Damian, and Steph has.

[Kblaze8855]

Is there any guard who retired before say....1995...you wouldn’t say that about?

[Basketball IQ]

Is there any guard who retired before say....1995...you wouldn’t say that about?

That's the point. He doesn't have their skillset and he wasn't the scorer these guys are.

[Kblaze8855]

If it’s as simple as dismissing everyone from before like 95 you aren’t really taking individuals into consideration to begin with. Just throwing a blanket over everyone. I have little interest in that discussion as it always comes down to people with no recollection telling people who do remember about shit they didn’t see. Like the kids in here talking about Jeff VanGundy as if they have seen Isiah make a play that wasn’t an ESPN highlight. I’m doing my best to stop being involved in talks where it’s one side with information on their end only vs a side made up entirely of people who know both.

They never seem to go anywhere and the side with only half the story never seems to grasp why the other doesn’t care what they think about things they never saw.

[Basketball IQ]

If it’s as simple as dismissing everyone from before like 95 you aren’t really taking individuals into consideration to begin with. Just throwing a blanket over everyone. I have little interest in that discussion as it always comes down to people with no recollection telling people who do remember about shit they didn’t see. Like the kids in here talking about Jeff VanGundy as if they have seen Isiah make a play that wasn’t an ESPN highlight. I’m doing my best to stop being involved in talks where it’s one side with information on their end only vs a side made up entirely of people who know both.

They never seem to go anywhere and the side with only half the story never seems to grasp why the other doesn’t care what they think about things they never saw.

I have watched a decent sample size of Zeke in the 90's. There is no way you can tell me, with a straight face, that he has the scoring skillset of the players I mentioned

[tpols]

That's the point. He doesn't have their skillset and he wasn't the scorer these guys are.

How can you say with a straight face Isiah Thomas doesn't have the scoring skillset of westbrook? I'm rewatching all the classic 80s bouts, and.... that's just a preposterous take. His skill with the dribble and jumper was on a totally different level.

[Roundball_Rock]

Westbrook is a two-time scoring champ and freak athlete...he would go from 32 PPG to never being top 10 in scoring in the 80's/90's, which is what Zeke was (peaked at 12th, 18th, 19th in scoring)? When Detroit won, Isiah was at 18 each of those years (his peak of 23 came on a 37-45 team in 81' when the league and Detroit was much faster paced).

[1987_Lakers]

How can you say with a straight face Isiah Thomas doesn't have the scoring skillset of westbrook? I'm rewatching all the classic 80s bouts, and.... that's just a preposterous take. His skill with the dribble and jumper was on a totally different level.

His jumper was not on another level. :oldlol:

He was always a streaky shooter, career 75% FT shooter, attempted around 2 threes a game in his last 5 years in the league despite being a horrific 3 point shooter, that's not to say he couldn't hit from mid-range cause he could, but someone like CP3 had a much better jumper. lol @ Isiah's jumper being on another level.

If you watch the popular documentary Hoop Dreams from the 90's, one of the kids they follow is a HS kid who playing on the same HS team Isiah played on, the basketball coach of that team told the kid that he is already a better shooter than Isiah or something to that effect. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

If you watch the popular documentary Hoop Dreams from the 90's, one of the kids they follow is a HS kid who playing on the same HS team Isiah played on, the basketball coach of that team told the kid that he is already a better shooter than Isiah or something to that effect. :oldlol:

:oldlol:

[Marchesk]

The problem is Zeke did not have the offensive arsenal that Trae, Westbrook, IT, Damian, and Steph has.

Westbrook? Seriously? Zeke didn't have the offensive arsenal that Westbrook has? The same WB who has a career 30.5 3P% and 43.7 FG% with 4.1 TO?

Westbrook averaged his 31.6 ppg season on massive usage rate.

[Marchesk]

I have watched a decent sample size of Zeke in the 90's. There is no way you can tell me, with a straight face, that he has the scoring skillset of the players I mentioned

He had a better scoring skillset than Westbrook.

Westbrook makes up for it with his crazy motor and Mamba attitude despite terrible efficiency and turnovers.

[Basketball IQ]

Westbrook is a two-time scoring champ and freak athlete...he would go from 32 PPG to never being top 10 in scoring in the 80's/90's, which is what Zeke was (peaked at 12th, 18th, 19th in scoring)? When Detroit won, Isiah was at 18 each of those years (his peak of 23 came on a 37-45 team in 81' when the league and Detroit was much faster paced).

Westbrook Peak with his athleticism and high usage would be 28 to 31 in the 80's and 90's. He's basically a bigger AI

[Basketball IQ]

Westbrook? Seriously? Zeke didn't have the offensive arsenal that Westbrook has? The same WB who has a career 30.5 3P% and 43.7 FG% with 4.1 TO?

Westbrook averaged his 31.6 ppg season on massive usage rate.

No matter how you slice it, regardless of era, Westbrook will always average more points than Zeke. Zeke is not able to impose his will on the scoring side like Westbrook can.

[Basketball IQ]

How can you say with a straight face Isiah Thomas doesn't have the scoring skillset of westbrook? I'm rewatching all the classic 80s bouts, and.... that's just a preposterous take. His skill with the dribble and jumper was on a totally different level.

Westbrook was just a better overall scorer. You can make an arguement that Zeke had a "prettier" game but not as good. Let's take Melo and Lebron. No one would argue that Melo had a prettier scoring game than Lebron but at their best, Lebron was the better scorer Peak for Peak.

[Roundball_Rock]

Westbrook Peak with his athleticism and high usage would be 28 to 31 in the 80's and 90's. He's basically a bigger AI

Athletes of Westbrook's level will eat in any era.

[Gudo]

Its hard to just plug and play players into different eras since the game evolves, rules change. Players adapt and grow up to how the game is played during their time. Jerry west as is, plugged into modern play, will not survive with his archaic dribbling and game. Shooting would stand perhaps. But how evolved jerry west’s game would have been had he been born in modern times? You see tons of kids everywhere having better handles than most from the past. Would it have been impossible for west to have developed the same way?

If curry was born in the 70s and grew up playing in the 80s to 90s, he would have certainly been a much different player. He may not have been given a green light to shoot 3s and would not have developed in that area as he had now.

[Reggie43]

Jerry West with that deadly pullup jumper would be good/great in any era.

[3ball]

Isiah was a better scorer, passer, clutch and leadership over Pippen

Replace Pippen with Isiah, and bulls win every year from 85-93'

Replace Isiah with Pippen, and the Pistons win zero.. no one would've ever heard of the Pistons

[Whoah10115]

I have watched a decent sample size of Zeke in the 90's. There is no way you can tell me, with a straight face, that he has the scoring skillset of the players I mentioned

Not helping if you're watching the 90s.

[GimmeThat]

the question here is whether or not IT would be able to play the 3. I think he could, because while conventional wisdom would say that when IT is in the 3 position, the 3 would have to roam around outside the perimeter for defensive purposes. Only if you tracked IT's movement, with or without the ball, he was constantly in between that 10+ feet area, creating for teammates.

and the reason he can do this, is the same reason the Pistons were able to stop the Bulls twice.
the ability to drive the baseline.

[Roundball_Rock]

A 6'1" player at SF?