What Would Today's Players Score in the 90's?

[Roundball_Rock]

We keep seeing massive scoring inflation when 90's era players are discussed as playing in today's league. 33 PPG becomes 45, 25 becomes 30, 23 becomes 30, etc. Name the 90's player, and they get a massive inflation in scoring (the only exceptions I have seen are two players from the same team who one large fan base argues would score the same or less, but we know the obvious agenda there).

The corollary is ignored: if 90's players would score exponentially more if in today's league because it is that much easier to score that means today's players would score substantially less if in the 90's. So how much scoring deflation would these players experience in the 90's? Here are the actual scoring peaks for these players in this era.

Durant 32
Harden 36
Curry 30
Westbrook 32
Kawhi 27
Giannis 30
Lillard 30
George 28
Davis 28
Luka 29
Butler 24
Embiid 28
Irving 27 (20 games, full season high is 25)
Walker 26
Tatum 23
Mitchell 24

Then you have LeBron, whose scoring peak is 31 but that came in 06' after the hand-checking changes but before today's three point/spacing explosion. His high in recent years is 28.

Do these players experience a corollary large decrease? Do they stay the same? Have a small increase?

My personal view is 90's players would score more--but the increase is vastly exaggerated. You have to factor in team context, team offenses, team roles (read: volume, e.g., a guy like Miller would be in a Klay-type role today and not taking 25 shots), and player roles. You can't just tack on 5, 6, 8, or 10 PPG onto every random player or be talking about 45 or 50 PPG for MJ (his 90's peak was 33). Similarly, you can't just deduct 5-6 PPG and say a guy like Kawhi would become 21-22 PPG in the 90's. What do you think?

[ImKobe]

Durant would easily be the same scorer in the 90s with his skillset. He has the total package, as does Kawhi.

[Roundball_Rock]

Durant would easily be the same scorer in the 90s with his skillset. He has the total package, as does Kawhi.

So the same skill set against tougher defenses (read: tougher shots)=exactly the same results? :confusedshrug: I know you have a lot of agendas colliding here but that doesn't make sense.

If KD is putting up 32 in the 90's that means he is MJ as a scorer, who peaked at 32.6 in the 90's. Yet we hear MJ would be scoring 45 or 50 in the same era Durant scored 32 in.

[Vino24]

Depends. Does KD get guarded by muggsy as well? Lol. KD is a unique player that the 90’s never seen. 7’ player that can run shoot 3’s midrange. KD would average near MJ numbers

[LAmbruh]

So the same skill set against tougher defenses (read: tougher shots)=exactly the same results? :confusedshrug: I know you have a lot of agendas colliding here but that doesn't make sense.

If KD is putting up 32 in the 90's that means he is MJ as a scorer, who peaked at 32.6 in the 90's. Yet we hear MJ would be scoring 45 or 50 in the same era Durant scored 32 in.

damn :oldlol:

[ThatCoolKid]

Today's players would run wild against low IQ 90s defenders who don't understand more advanced modern strategies. Imagine Lebron with illegal defense rules :lol

[ImKobe]

So the same skill set against tougher defenses (read: tougher shots)=exactly the same results? :confusedshrug: I know you have a lot of agendas colliding here but that doesn't make sense.

If KD is putting up 32 in the 90's that means he is MJ as a scorer, who peaked at 32.6 in the 90's. Yet we hear MJ would be scoring 45 or 50 in the same era Durant scored 32 in.


When Durant averaged 32 ppg in '14, the league-wide ORTG was 106.6 & the pace was just 93.9, it was 108 ORTG w/ a 95-98 pace in the early 90s and it didn't really see a significant decline until the late 90s/early 2000s, when defenses were on ATG level, which is why I'd give more credit AI/Vince/T-Mac/Pierce/Kobe in the early 2000s, but people are hell-bent on comparing their scoring numbers to the 2015-20 era, when the league-wide ORTG reached as low as 102.9 w/ a 90.1 pace in '04, compared to 110.6 ORTG & 100.3 pace this season.

I just don't see how you stop KD or Kawhi in the 90s, they're the two biggest exceptions to me.


Today's players would run wild against low IQ 90s defenders who don't understand more advanced modern strategies. Imagine Lebron with illegal defense rules :lol

Great, but the opposing teams put 3 guys in the paint and force Lebron's teammates to beat them on jump shots like they did with Jordan, what now?

[Vino24]

90’s perimeter players were absolute dogshit and inflated the notion that 90’s defense was so great. Imagine 90’s defenses strategizing for Curry’s 30ft 3’s lolol the league would change.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1995-1999 the pace was very slow, the paint was more clogged. A guy like Giannis would struggle.

Kawhi/Durant would basically be the same guys.

Harden/Curry wouldn't have a coach to greenlight all those 3's, so they probably get worse. If Steve Kerr just retires early and starts coaching Curry lol. Does Curry get to shoot 11 threes a game? A lot of hypothetical situations, so we can only guess.

[Gray GOAT]

So the same skill set against tougher defenses (read: tougher shots)=exactly the same results? :confusedshrug: I know you have a lot of agendas colliding here but that doesn't make sense.

If KD is putting up 32 in the 90's that means he is MJ as a scorer, who peaked at 32.6 in the 90's. Yet we hear MJ would be scoring 45 or 50 in the same era Durant scored 32 in.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/640/962/d91.gif

[TheCorporation]

Today's players would run wild against low IQ 90s defenders who don't understand more advanced modern strategies. Imagine Lebron with illegal defense rules :lol

He's getting 36/12/12 at will against those low IQ grocery baggers

[Roundball_Rock]

1995-1999 the pace was very slow, the paint was more clogged. A guy like Giannis would struggle.

Kawhi/Durant would basically be the same guys.

Pace alone would mean less points, though. If Durant is scoring 32 still in the 90's, that means he is MJ as a scorer in the 90's.

Other than MJ and Nique', no perimeter player was scoring 30+ in the 90's (I'm counting 29.9 for Nique as 30).


Harden/Curry wouldn't have a coach to greenlight all those 3's, so they probably get worse. If Steve Kerr just retires early and starts coaching Curry lol. Does Curry get to shoot 11 threes a game?

Nope. Less threes, more mid-range twos, more drive attempts.

I agree scoring would go down nearly across the board. I just disagree with the claims made about the extent of the decrease.

[3ball]

Giannis would be a center in the 90's - he wouldn't handle the ball because the driving lanes weren't there, and that's all Giannis can do - drive - he can't shoot

Since Giannis' weakness is facing packed paints, he would suffer in the 90's, where packed paints were the every-possession standard

So his peak would be 22 ppg in the 90's, like pippen.. maybe like 25 because he's far more talented than Pippen

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pace alone would mean less points, though. If Durant is scoring 32 still in the 90's, that means he is MJ as a scorer in the 90's.

Other than MJ and Nique', no perimeter player was scoring 30+ in the 90's (I'm counting 29.9 for Nique as 30).



Nope. Less threes, more mid-range twos, more drive attempts.

I agree scoring would go down nearly across the board. I just disagree with the claims made about the extent of the decrease.

You don't think Kawhi and Durant are better scorers then Nique? I figure if he did it, they would for sure do it.

[Bronbron23]

We keep seeing massive scoring inflation when 90's era players are discussed as playing in today's league. 33 PPG becomes 45, 25 becomes 30, 23 becomes 30, etc. Name the 90's player, and they get a massive inflation in scoring (the only exceptions I have seen are two players from the same team who one large fan base argues would score the same or less, but we know the obvious agenda there).

The corollary is ignored: if 90's players would score exponentially more if in today's league because it is that much easier to score that means today's players would score substantially less if in the 90's. So how much scoring deflation would these players experience in the 90's? Here are the actual scoring peaks for these players in this era.

Durant 32
Harden 36
Curry 30
Westbrook 32
Kawhi 27
Giannis 30
Lillard 30
George 28
Davis 28
Luka 29
Butler 24
Embiid 28
Irving 27 (20 games, full season high is 25)
Walker 26
Tatum 23
Mitchell 24

Then you have LeBron, whose scoring peak is 31 but that came in 06' after the hand-checking changes but before today's three point/spacing explosion. His high in recent years is 28.

Do these players experience a corollary large decrease? Do they stay the same? Have a small increase?

My personal view is 90's players would score more--but the increase is vastly exaggerated. You have to factor in team context, team offenses, team roles (read: volume, e.g., a guy like Miller would be in a Klay-type role today and not taking 25 shots), and player roles. You can't just tack on 5, 6, 8, or 10 PPG onto every random player or be talking about 45 or 50 PPG for MJ (his 90's peak was 33). Similarly, you can't just deduct 5-6 PPG and say a guy like Kawhi would become 21-22 PPG in the 90's. What do you think?

Its so hard to say. The biggest change would be gaurds who play mostly on the perimeter. The 3 ball would be the biggest factor because guys weren't shooting alot of threes in the 90's. So all these perimeter players shooting 8-10 thress would be down to 4-6. Even if you replace the made ones with 2's thats still at least 2 points lower a game. Now adjust for pace, rules and physicality and thats probably another point or 2 less. And lastly we have to look at style of play. There was way more focus on post play so alot of the guards now are gone be shooting a couple shots less a game in the 90's so that would be another point or so.

In general id say its anywhere from 4-6 points less depending on the player. Again talking mostly perimeter guys. This wouldn't effect guys like bron, kd and kawhi as much. Players who spend alot more time at the rim in the post or at the mid would have have a way less drop off.

[pandiani17]

They would definitely score much less againts the 90s defensive juggernauts. It's not the same facing Olajuwon, Mutombo, Mourning, Ewing, Shaq or today's bigs who don't even try to block shots.

[3ball]

Its so hard to say. The biggest change would be gaurds who play mostly on the perimeter. The 3 ball would be the biggest factor because guys weren't shooting alot of threes in the 90's. So all these perimeter players shooting 8-10 thress would be down to 4-6. Even if you replace the made ones with 2's thats still at least 2 points lower a game. Now adjust for pace, rules and physicality and thats probably another point or 2 less. And lastly we have to look at style of play. There was way more focus on post play so alot of the guards now are gone be shooting a couple shots less a game in the 90's so that would be another point or so.

In general id say its anywhere from 4-6 points less depending on the player. Again talking mostly perimeter guys. This wouldn't effect guys like bron, kd and kawhi as much. Players who spend alot more time at the rim in the post or at the mid would have have a way less drop off.

Didn't lebron just go an entire series with zero mid-range shots?

His shooting touch, accuracy, and jumpshooting skill isn't on the level of Kawhi, let alone Durant

So he would suffer in the 90's where mid-range touch was king.. lebron would need to play like a big or have better shooting touch to avoid a statistical decline in the 90's

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

More or less with Bron23 here.

I don't know about the 4-6 point drop, but most of these perimeter players see a dip in points and efficiency. I think Kawhi has a throwback game and would adjust seamlessly. LeBron could also use his physique to his advantage. Curry and Harden though are players the old rules would humble.

[Roundball_Rock]

More or less with Bron23 here.

I don't know about the 4-6 point drop, but most of these perimeter players see a dip in points and efficiency. I think Kawhi has a throwback game and would adjust seamlessly. LeBron could also use his physique to his advantage. Curry and Harden though are players the old rules would humble.

Agree. Probably more like 2-3 PPG changes, with the elite of the elite like Kawhi, KD, LeBron having a chance to stem the tide but the tiers behind them take a hit of 2-3, maybe more in some cases. It would depend on team context but if we take someone like Lillard and put him on the 1995 Blazers he isn't scoring 30 PPG.

[3ball]

More or less with Bron23 here.

I don't know about the 4-6 point drop, but most of these perimeter players see a dip in points and efficiency. I think Kawhi has a throwback game and would adjust seamlessly. LeBron could also use his physique to his advantage. Curry and Harden though are players the old rules would humble.

So lebron would be a bully-ball big in the 80's?... Those guys didn't rank that high back then... Certainly nowhere near the guys with sky-hooks, dream shakes, feathery touch, or pick-n-pop skills

[Basketball IQ]

So the same skill set against tougher defenses (read: tougher shots)=exactly the same results? :confusedshrug: I know you have a lot of agendas colliding here but that doesn't make sense.

If KD is putting up 32 in the 90's that means he is MJ as a scorer, who peaked at 32.6 in the 90's. Yet we hear MJ would be scoring 45 or 50 in the same era Durant scored 32 in.

Kevin Durant was a better scorer than Jordan due to his length and range. Kevin Durant would be George Gervin 2.0.

[Basketball IQ]

We keep seeing massive scoring inflation when 90's era players are discussed as playing in today's league. 33 PPG becomes 45, 25 becomes 30, 23 becomes 30, etc. Name the 90's player, and they get a massive inflation in scoring (the only exceptions I have seen are two players from the same team who one large fan base argues would score the same or less, but we know the obvious agenda there).

The corollary is ignored: if 90's players would score exponentially more if in today's league because it is that much easier to score that means today's players would score substantially less if in the 90's. So how much scoring deflation would these players experience in the 90's? Here are the actual scoring peaks for these players in this era.

Durant 32
Harden 36
Curry 30
Westbrook 32
Kawhi 27
Giannis 30
Lillard 30
George 28
Davis 28
Luka 29
Butler 24
Embiid 28
Irving 27 (20 games, full season high is 25)
Walker 26
Tatum 23
Mitchell 24

Then you have LeBron, whose scoring peak is 31 but that came in 06' after the hand-checking changes but before today's three point/spacing explosion. His high in recent years is 28.

Do these players experience a corollary large decrease? Do they stay the same? Have a small increase?

My personal view is 90's players would score more--but the increase is vastly exaggerated. You have to factor in team context, team offenses, team roles (read: volume, e.g., a guy like Miller would be in a Klay-type role today and not taking 25 shots), and player roles. You can't just tack on 5, 6, 8, or 10 PPG onto every random player or be talking about 45 or 50 PPG for MJ (his 90's peak was 33). Similarly, you can't just deduct 5-6 PPG and say a guy like Kawhi would become 21-22 PPG in the 90's. What do you think?

They would score the same amount of points just in different ways. The players who have great range would probably shoot more midrange shots though. There would probably be more emphasis on playing in the post if you are a George, Lebron, Harden or Kawhi...etc

[Basketball IQ]

1995-1999 the pace was very slow, the paint was more clogged. A guy like Giannis would struggle.

Kawhi/Durant would basically be the same guys.

Harden/Curry wouldn't have a coach to greenlight all those 3's, so they probably get worse. If Steve Kerr just retires early and starts coaching Curry lol. Does Curry get to shoot 11 threes a game? A lot of hypothetical situations, so we can only guess.

Giannis would suffer but Dominique, Drexler, and Grant Hill dominated? Are you sure about that?

Harden and Curry would basically shoot more midrange shots than three pointers. Their scoring peaks would be 30 to 35.

[Basketball IQ]

They would definitely score much less againts the 90s defensive juggernauts. It's not the same facing Olajuwon, Mutombo, Mourning, Ewing, Shaq or today's bigs who don't even try to block shots.

You're acting like these guys didn't go against Camby, Garnette, Duncan, prime Ibaka, Ben Wallace, Gobert, Whiteside, Draymond, Bogut, Marc Gasol, Noah, Hibbert, and Deandre Jordan. All are exceptional pain protectors.

[Basketball IQ]

Didn't lebron just go an entire series with zero mid-range shots?

His shooting touch, accuracy, and jumpshooting skill isn't on the level of Kawhi, let alone Durant

So he would suffer in the 90's where mid-range touch was king.. lebron would need to play like a big or have better shooting touch to avoid a statistical decline in the 90's

It's not like Dominique (who peaked at 30PPG) had a great midrange shot.

[Bronbron23]

Didn't lebron just go an entire series with zero mid-range shots?

His shooting touch, accuracy, and jumpshooting skill isn't on the level of Kawhi, let alone Durant

So he would suffer in the 90's where mid-range touch was king.. lebron would need to play like a big or have better shooting touch to avoid a statistical decline in the 90's

No but hes a better finisher than both of those guys plus if bron played in the 90's he'd probably play alot more in the post where he's pretty tough.

[3ball]

It's not like Dominique (who peaked at 30PPG) had a great midrange shot.

That's where you're dead wrong

He had great touch and was an expert at hitting contested turnarounds, pull-ups - you name it - he scored MOSTLY on these shots.. dunks were only a small portion of his shots

These guys weren't robots in the gym practicing 500 jumpers a day... they developed pure scoring ability because contested shots were the expectation back then (no spacing).. so Nique was money from anywhere inside the line.. all kinds of shot-making ability

[Overdrive]

You're acting like these guys didn't go against Camby, Garnette, Duncan, prime Ibaka, Ben Wallace, Gobert, Whiteside, Draymond, Bogut, Marc Gasol, Noah, Hibbert, and Deandre Jordan. All are exceptional pain protectors.

Some of them are nice, but defensive 3 seconds is a thing.

[Basketball IQ]

That's where you're dead wrong

He had great touch and was an expert at hitting contested turnarounds, pull-ups - you name it - he scored MOSTLY on these shots.. dunks were only a small portion of his shots

These guys weren't robots in the gym practicing 500 jumpers a day... they developed pure scoring ability because contested shots were the expectation back then (no spacing).. so Nique was money from anywhere inside the line.. all kinds of shot-making ability

He still wasn't a great midrange shooter. I would argue that Lebron was the better overall scorer and had a much better scoring skillset than Wilkins.

[3ball]

No but hes a better finisher than both of those guys plus if bron played in the 90's he'd probably play alot more in the post where he's pretty tough.

Lebron isn't getting to the rim back then like you think - so a mid-range shot was needed more than today

For example, KJ needed an expert mid-range shot to be a good scorer back then and shoot over packed paints... and he was a great penetrator... Ultimately, bron only suffers a little bit in today's game without the reliable mid-range bail-out shot that Kawhi has.. this would be magnified in prior eras where it was more needed vs packed paints

[FromDowntown]

You're acting like these guys didn't go against Camby, Garnette, Duncan, prime Ibaka, Ben Wallace, Gobert, Whiteside, Draymond, Bogut, Marc Gasol, Noah, Hibbert, and Deandre Jordan. All are exceptional pain protectors.

Imagine that PLUS strong perimeter defense. 90s era is know for cupcake perimeter defense, that is why Pippen is so valuable then.

John Starks guarding MJ on the wing? :lol
Craig Ehlo? Byron Russell? Jeff Hornacek? Steve Smith?! Are we joking here?

[pandiani17]

Some of them are nice, but defensive 3 seconds is a thing.

This. Also, teams in the past used to have a two frontcourt players at the same time protecting the rim. With the introduction of small-ball in the early 10s, that went down the drain and it is easier than ever to get buckets in the paint, which is the reason why PG's nowadays score more than ever.

[FromDowntown]

Lebron isn't getting to the rim back then like you think - so a mid-range shot was needed more than today

For example, KJ needed an expert mid-range shot to be a good scorer back then and shoot over packed paints... and he was a great penetrator... Ultimately, bron only suffers a little bit in today's game without the reliable mid-range bail-out shot that Kawhi has.. this would be magnified in prior eras where it was more needed vs packed paints

With literally no perimeter defense to stop him from getting a full head of steam? :roll:

He would DECIMATE any defense in the 90s :lol

No Kawhi, Draymond, Pascal, Butler, Paul George long athletic wings to defend him? You're putting Jeff Hornacek on Prime Bron? That's 40 a night lil fella :lol

[3ball]

With literally no perimeter defense to stop him from getting a full head of steam? :roll:

He would DECIMATE any defense in the 90s :lol

No Kawhi, Draymond, Pascal, Butler, Paul George long athletic wings to defend him? You're putting Jeff Hornacek on Prime Bron? That's 40 a night lil fella :lol

He wouldn't run high-screen rolls back then because the didn't play like that or space the floor with 3-point shooters

And without high screen-rolls, lebron can't go downhill with head-of-steam... THAT'S how he gets a head-of-steam - it's high screen-rolls... Whereas the 90's didn't have high screen-rolls, so he would have to break guys down off-the-dribble against hand-checking, aka not his strong suit.. so I see a lot of stumbling and then eventually settling into into a post role of mostly bully-ball

[FromDowntown]

He wouldn't run high-screen rolls back then because the didn't play like that or space the floor with 3-point shooters

And without high screen-rolls, lebron can't go downhill with head-of-steam... THAT'S how he gets a head-of-steam - it's high screen-rolls... Whereas the 90's didn't have high screen-rolls, so he would have to actually break guys down off-the-dribble against hand-checking

LeBron is used to being guarded by:

Kawhi, Draymond, Butler, Siakam, Andre Igoudola, Paul George, P.J. Tucker

Who would be this defensive equivalent in the 90s?

Thanks baby boi

[3ball]

LeBron is used to being guarded by:

Kawhi, Draymond, Butler, Siakam, Andre Igoudola, Paul George, P.J. Tucker

Who would be this defensive equivalent in the 90s?

Thanks baby boi

Rodman, Jordan, Karl Malone, Larry Nance, Anthony Mason, Pippen

to name a few

Lebron averaged 17 against Jason Terry, so how many against the 96' Bulls (MJ, Pippen, Rodman).. lebron would be so scared

[Roundball_Rock]

He still wasn't a great midrange shooter. I would argue that Lebron was the better overall scorer and had a much better scoring skillset than Wilkins.

Or a great three point shooter for that matter.

[FromDowntown]

Rodman, Jordan, Karl Malone, Larry Nance, Anthony Mason, Pippen

to name a few

Lebron averaged 17 against Jason Terry, so how many against the 96' Bulls (MJ, Pippen, Rodman).. lebron would be so scared

1 series :lol Okay ez, What about MJ's 26 on 41% vs 6'2 Payton?
Also lol @ Larry Nance and Karl Malone

:roll: u Lose

[Roundball_Rock]

1 series :lol Okay ez, What about MJ's 26 on 41% vs 6'2 Payton?
Also lol @ Larry Nance and Karl Malone

:roll: u Lose

It was much worse than that because Payton only guarded him for the last three games. Here are the splits:

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/08/21/how-putting-gary-payton-on-michael-jordan-sooner-could-have-changed-the-1996-nba-finals/

[Overdrive]

With literally no perimeter defense to stop him from getting a full head of steam? :roll:

He would DECIMATE any defense in the 90s :lol

No Kawhi, Draymond, Pascal, Butler, Paul George long athletic wings to defend him? You're putting Jeff Hornacek on Prime Bron? That's 40 a night lil fella :lol

Full head of steam running in a 7 footer. No restricted area until 97-98.

We sure know he wouldn't stop to shoot a midrange jumper.

[sdot_thadon]

The only thing that 90s only guys push in this convo I dislike is the idea that in the 90s every defender is Pippen Rodman and Olajuwon, and every defense is the 94 Knicks or the Bad boys. There were bad defensive teams and weak defenders to feast on in that era just like any. And as always you're more likely to see an weak or average defender than an elite one from game to game. So I think the best of the best will get theirs in any era the fancy dribblers would definitely get impacted hard by hand checking but guys with unreal range would be alien.

[3ball]

1 series :lol Okay ez, What about MJ's 26 on 41% vs 6'2 Payton?
Also lol @ Larry Nance and Karl Malone

:roll: u Lose

There were tons of big guys to guard lebron - more than this era - guys like Malone and Nance would suffocate lebron on a shrunk court

And Jordan wasn't trying against Payton.. he thought the series was over.. and he was right.. it was a long season of goatness and coming through as the goat (coming back after baseball)

[sdot_thadon]

There were tons of big guys to guard lebron - more than this era

And Jordan wasn't trying against Payton.. he thought the series was over.. and he was right

And all of the big guys from that era would face the same conundrum all guys defending Lebron face. They'll be too slow to keep him from blowing by on command.

[Marchesk]

Kevin Durant was a better scorer than Jordan due to his length and range. Kevin Durant would be George Gervin 2.0.

Jordan was a better scorer than Gervin. There's only one other player in history who compares to Jordan as a scorer, and that was Wilt.

[Gimmedarock]

The players couldn’t guard today’s players. Slow centers trying to stay with someone today ? Honestly, today’s players would score as much in the 90’s because of pace. They’d still dominate though. Too skilled, too many ball handlers, & too much range. Positionless basketball kills old school all day bruh. Bron kills. Bron Bron Bron !

We get where we are because of players of the past so much respect to all of them. From an actual skill standpoint though, old players are trash compared to now.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan wasn't trying because the series was over--from a guy who brings up FG percentages from that series up every week. The hypocrisy never ends from 1-9ball and his minions. :lol

Jordan got locked down by Payton, an ATG defender. Own it.

[Marchesk]

From an actual skill standpoint though, old players are trash compared to now.


https://ftks732kpvy18zwzc2s17egw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/westbrook-dance.gif

[Overdrive]

The only thing that 90s only guys push in this convo I dislike is the idea that in the 90s every defender is Pippen Rodman and Olajuwon, and every defense is the 94 Knicks or the Bad boys. There were bad defensive teams and weak defenders to feast on in that era just like any. And as always you're more likely to see an weak or average defender than an elite one from game to game. So I think the best of the best will get theirs in any era the fancy dribblers would definitely get impacted hard by hand checking but guys with unreal range would be alien.

Not a 90s only fan. I think any era has redeeming qualities. The deal is that era bound fans always argue that their era is the most loaded and talented, but any era has trash, middle of the pack and great teams. Of course George Mikan wouldn't be great today, but players of the late 90s early 2000s still could hang today. Vince Carter retired some weeks ago. I think the era gaps are way overstated. I think most of today's top scorers would also be top scorers in yesteryears.


The players couldn’t guard today’s players. Slow centers trying to stay with someone today ? Honestly, today’s players would score as much in the 90’s because of pace. They’d still dominate though. Too skilled, too many ball handlers, & too much range. Positionless basketball kills old school all day bruh. Bron kills. Bron Bron Bron !

We get where we are because of players of the past so much respect to all of them. From an actual skill standpoint though, old players are trash compared to now.

Most ball handlers would get called all game back in the day. Everyone being able to shoot is a huge leap in skill, but some are artificially inflated.

[Basketball IQ]

Some of them are nice, but defensive 3 seconds is a thing.

One of the most overrated rules. All you have to do is step in and out of the key. It doesn't put you at that much of a disadvantage. You could also say "well, there wasn't any Zone defense in the 80's and 90's"

[Basketball IQ]

Jordan was a better scorer than Gervin. There's only one other player in history who compares to Jordan as a scorer, and that was Wilt.

Not disagreeing with you there Jordan > Gervin. But there isn't a huge disparity in their scoring ability. I would rank Kevin Durant above Jordan as a perimeter scorer but I have no problem with Wilt being the greatest scorer of all time.

[Basketball IQ]

The only thing that 90s only guys push in this convo I dislike is the idea that in the 90s every defender is Pippen Rodman and Olajuwon, and every defense is the 94 Knicks or the Bad boys. There were bad defensive teams and weak defenders to feast on in that era just like any. And as always you're more likely to see an weak or average defender than an elite one from game to game. So I think the best of the best will get theirs in any era the fancy dribblers would definitely get impacted hard by hand checking but guys with unreal range would be alien.

People also forget that it was more 1 v 1 based compared to the 2000's and 2010's. Zone defense is a perfect replacement for handchecking.

[Basketball IQ]

https://ftks732kpvy18zwzc2s17egw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/westbrook-dance.gif

What were you trying to prove with that gif?

[Overdrive]

People also forget that it was more 1 v 1 based compared to the 2000's and 2010's. Zone defense is a perfect replacement for handchecking.

The 2000s were huge on iso plays, but the NBA is still mainly based on a guy dribbling to ignite the offense. There are almost no equal opportunity offenses, even teams like the Rockets that shoot alot basically rely on one or two guys creating their shot or throwing off the defense for an open look. The 13 and 14 Spurs were the closest I've seen to a non iso, 1v1 based offense in the NBA in recent years.

[Overdrive]

One of the most overrated rules. All you have to do is step in and out of the key. It doesn't put you at that much of a disadvantage. You could also say "well, there wasn't any Zone defense in the 80's and 90's"

I think full fledged zone & no D3 rule would give us the best defensive product.

I don't think it's overrated as alot of fouls in the paint happen from late rotations by the big. But it's not only the D3, but also opposing bigs being able to shoot. Still I think it stifles defenses to a point. It would decrease those drive and kick plays to a certain extent atleast.

[Manny98]

More or less the same.

Yes it was more physical but not to the extent where players today would not be able to handle it. They would just have to adjust their games a little bit

Guys like KD & LeBron are averaging 28+ in any era

Guards would be affected and probably average less

Forwards and bigs wouldn't be affected

[Roundball_Rock]

I notice a lot of the people who go around saying every non-MJ teammate from the 90's would score 10 PPG more today are silent on the question in reverse. :lol

[FromDowntown]

Full head of steam running in a 7 footer. No restricted area until 97-98.

We sure know he wouldn't stop to shoot a midrange jumper.

Bron's been feasting at the rim. We'll be right without someone to slow him down en route to the cup.

Get real.

[FromDowntown]

There were tons of big guys to guard lebron - more than this era - guys like Malone and Nance would suffocate lebron on a shrunk court

And Jordan wasn't trying against Payton.. he thought the series was over.. and he was right.. it was a long season of goatness and coming through as the goat (coming back after baseball)

Prime Bron could stay in front of Derrick Rose on defense but Larry Nance (on your top 5 90s defenders list) is going to stay in front of Bron?

:roll: :roll:

Never stop posting we need more laughs.

[Overdrive]

Bron's been feasting at the rim. We'll be right without someone to slow him down en route to the cup.

Get real.

No restricted area. No D3 rule. A big could just meet Lebron at the rim.

I don't think Lebron would score less, but his game would have to be different.

[Overdrive]

I notice a lot of the people who go around saying every non-MJ teammate from the 90's would score 10 PPG more today are silent on the question in reverse. :lol

Who argues like this aside from 3ball and ImKobe?

[Roundball_Rock]

Who argues like this aside from 3ball and ImKobe?

Show me a MJ stan who will say Pippen and Kukoc would score more today. Thanks in advance. :cheers:

As to the opposite, it is an article of faith for MJ stans that every 90's player would score a ton more--except if they happened to play with MJ.

[Overdrive]

Show me a MJ stan who will say Pippen and Kukoc would score more today. Thanks in advance. :cheers:

As to the opposite, it is an article of faith for MJ stans that every 90's player would score a ton more--except if they happened to play with MJ.

Sure, but there's not much arguing about that ITT. I also don't think Pippen would score that much more, but he would raise his allround stats. 25/8/9 at peak play.

Kukoc was made for this era.

Pretty sure some of the moderate MJ fans even said so in past threads.

Ofc 3ball and bronbron won't. But it's useless arguing with them.

[3ball]

Show me a MJ stan who will say Pippen and Kukoc would score more today. Thanks in advance. :cheers:

As to the opposite, it is an article of faith for MJ stans that every 90's player would score a ton more--except if they happened to play with MJ.

No bruh.. you're the one being dishonest by dodging direct questions when asked

You didn't answer when asked to name 2nd options in today's league that can't shoot or iso

There aren't any, certainly among contenders, so that proves Pippen wouldn't be a 2nd option today.. guys like pippen with spotty offense are 4th and 5th option specialists or bench players..

So pippen's tertiary role in today's game would prevent his stats from going up like other guys (that can shoot or iso and therefore be primary options)

[Overdrive]

No bruh.. you're the one being dishonest by dodging direct questions when asked

You didn't answer when asked to name 2nd options in today's league can't shoot or iso

There aren't any, certainly among contenders, so that proves Pippen wouldn't be a 2nd option today.. guys like pippen with spotty offense are 4th and 5th option specialists or bench players..

So pippen's tertiary role in today's game would prevent his stats from going up like other guys (that can shoot and/or iso)

You're saying Lebron can't shoot, 90s players would get a rise in production. You even add close to 50% in scoring for some players.

So an open court flow of the game player like Pippen would be closer to Lebron in the new era. Similar game, similar athleticism.

So Jordan played with a player that would become a top5 ATG in this era. Most stacked roster ever.

[FromDowntown]

You're saying Lebron can't shoot, 90s players would get a rise in production. You even add close to 50% in scoring for some players.

So an open court flow of the game player like Pippen would be closer to Lebron in the new era. Similar game, similar athleticism.

So Jordan played with a player that would become a top5 ATG in this era. Most stacked roster ever.

Bingo

[3ball]

You're saying Lebron can't shoot, 90s players would get a rise in production. You even add close to 50% in scoring for some players.

So an open court flow of the game player like Pippen would be closer to Lebron in the new era. Similar game, similar athleticism.

So Jordan played with a player that would become a top5 ATG in this era. Most stacked roster ever.

Lebron can iso though (stiff-arm)

Every 1st or 2nd option in today's league can either shoot and/or iso

That means Pippen wouldn't be a 2nd option in today's league because he wasn't good at either

guys like pippen with spotty offense are 4th and 5th option specialists or bench players today..

So pippen's tertiary role in today's game would prevent his stats from going up like other guys that can shoot or iso and therefore are primary options

[Overdrive]

Lebron can iso though (stiff-arm)

Every 1st or 2nd option in today's league can either shoot and/or iso

That means Pippen wouldn't be a 2nd option in today's league because he wasn't good at either

guys like pippen with spotty offense are 4th and 5th option specialists or bench players today..

So pippen's tertiary role in today's game would prevent his stats from going up like other guys that can shoot or iso and therefore are primary options

Sonin an era that according to your past posts demands more skill he could be a 2nd option? How come? Weaker defenses? No matter what you try to argue you're digging your own grave. If Pippen becomes worse in this era due to his lack of skillset the past era has to be worse or atleast pose some loopholes that would make Lebron even greater in the 90s or Pippen becomes greater along the other 90s players. There's no inbetween.

Why can't you just admit that Jordan played along another ATG player. It doesn't dethrone him from GOAT status for most people, but a great Pippen might for you. It actually means that you believe Jordan's status is based on outside factors.

[Round Mound]

Pippen would be kind off like Ben Simmons but with a little better shot but way better on defense.

[FromDowntown]

Pippen would be kind off like Ben Simmons but with a little better shot but way better on defense.

I think more like Jimmy Butler or Pascal Siakam. Hmm but Pippen can pass pretty damn well so now you got me thinking more.

[Basketball IQ]

The 2000s were huge on iso plays, but the NBA is still mainly based on a guy dribbling to ignite the offense. There are almost no equal opportunity offenses, even teams like the Rockets that shoot alot basically rely on one or two guys creating their shot or throwing off the defense for an open look. The 13 and 14 Spurs were the closest I've seen to a non iso, 1v1 based offense in the NBA in recent years.

Compared to the 80's, 90's, and 2010's, the defense in the 2000's wasn't as isao based. The 2000's is arguably the greatest defensive era due to the emphasis on zone defense (just my opinion"

[Round Mound]

I think more like Jimmy Butler or Pascal Siakam. Hmm but Pippen can pass pretty damn well so now you got me thinking more.

Pippen was not only the best play-making point-forward in the 90's but he also had an insane open court fast break slashing and dunking game while also being the best defensive SF or pointforward at that time. He wasn't a great shooter but he could score like Lebrdon does on less use of power.

[Basketball IQ]

I think full fledged zone & no D3 rule would give us the best defensive product.

I don't think it's overrated as alot of fouls in the paint happen from late rotations by the big. But it's not only the D3, but also opposing bigs being able to shoot. Still I think it stifles defenses to a point. It would decrease those drive and kick plays to a certain extent atleast.

This rule change did/does not effect great defensive bigs like Gobert, Mutombo, Anthony David, Roy Hibbery, Prime Ibaka, Kevin Garnette, Tim Duncan...etc. If anything this made bigs more versatile in their defense (guarding perimeter players) No disrespect, you're sounding like a Jordanite.

[Basketball IQ]

Sure, but there's not much arguing about that ITT. I also don't think Pippen would score that much more, but he would raise his allround stats. 25/8/9 at peak play.

Kukoc was made for this era.

Pretty sure some of the moderate MJ fans even said so in past threads.

Ofc 3ball and bronbron won't. But it's useless arguing with them.

Tony would be the same exact player he was in the 90's. And Pippen's stats wouldn't even be as good as Jimmy Butler's

[FireDavidKahn]

So the same skill set against tougher defenses (read: tougher shots)=exactly the same results? :confusedshrug: I know you have a lot of agendas colliding here but that doesn't make sense.

If KD is putting up 32 in the 90's that means he is MJ as a scorer, who peaked at 32.6 in the 90's. Yet we hear MJ would be scoring 45 or 50 in the same era Durant scored 32 in.

:oldlol::pimp:

[Roundball_Rock]

Sonin an era that according to your past posts demands more skill he could be a 2nd option? How come? Weaker defenses? No matter what you try to argue you're digging your own grave. If Pippen becomes worse in this era due to his lack of skillset the past era has to be worse or atleast pose some loopholes that would make Lebron even greater in the 90s or Pippen becomes greater along the other 90s players. There's no inbetween.

Why can't you just admit that Jordan played along another ATG player. It doesn't dethrone him from GOAT status for most people, but a great Pippen might for you. It actually means that you believe Jordan's status is based on outside factors.

:applause:

Not only that, we know he was a MVP candidate and first team all-NBA as a #1 option. In what 1-9ball claims was a much tougher era that demanded a lot more skill against much better defenses. Etc. etc. We know the rest.

1-9ball and IMKobe are the most annoying but there isn't much of a difference in their views and that of others. All the MJ stans are saying basically the same thing http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?482392-Scottie-Pippen-Paul-George-Kawhi-Leonard/page41 here across 45 pages, for example.


Pippen was not only the best play-making point-forward in the 90's but he also had an insane open court fast break slashing and dunking game while also being the best defensive SF or pointforward at that time. He wasn't a great shooter but he could score like Lebrdon does on less use of power.

Good points. One quibble: he was a streaky shooter. When we are talking averages that bakes in the games where his shot was hot as well as the games where it was cold. He did have a post game and ability to score off the dribble to fallback on when his J was off to keep a decent floor even then.

All this Pippen revisionism we see from insecure MJ stans ignores that when he played he was considered the best all-around player in the league at his peak. Literally no one was saying he was a one-way player--which is why MJ stans can never point to a single source from the time saying such. You can't be the best "all-around" and be a one-way player or be a non-entity as a scorer. :lol

[Overdrive]

This rule change did/does not effect great defensive bigs like Gobert, Mutombo, Anthony David, Roy Hibbery, Prime Ibaka, Kevin Garnette, Tim Duncan...etc. If anything this made bigs more versatile in their defense (guarding perimeter players) No disrespect, you're sounding like a Jordanite.

Of course great defensive bigs are great defensive big regardles of era. It's the middle of the pack bigs, who'd have a harder time shadowing slashers.

Doesn't have anything to do with Jordan. He wasn't the only slasher back in the day.

I don't care about Jordan that much in particular.


Tony would be the same exact player he was in the 90's. And Pippen's stats wouldn't even be as good as Jimmy Butler's

I think Pippen would be even seen as a greater allround player. And yes, Kukoc would be the same. Any player magically transfered in another era would be the same. The question is if that very same player can profit from said era. I think both Pippen and Kukoc could.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think Pippen would be even seen as a greater allround player. And yes, Kukoc would be the same. Any player magically transfered in another era would be the same. The question is if that very same player can profit from said era. I think both Pippen and Kukoc could.

Think about it:

*Faster pace
*More wide open spacing (more open J's and more opportunities to slash)
*Less shot blockers in the post
*More transition opportunities
*All of the above=more opportunities to playmake
*Small ball--Pippen's rebounding was elite for a wing and would be even greater if he is bigger relative to the other players on the court than he was in the 90's
*Pippen could play--and defend--all 5 positions

Pippen would be one of the biggest winners if he played today versus the 90's. Something like 25/10/8 would be doable (he peaked at 9 RPG in a slower era where more bigs so 10 RPG would be possible) as peak stats.

Kukoc was Pippen-lite on offense so he would benefit too, he just wasn't as talented or as skilled and his impact on areas other than scoring and playmaking wouldn't change materially since he was a poor defender and poor rebounder.

All these guys talk about how weak defenses are today, spacing, we know the pace is faster--yet somehow Pippen and Kukoc would 1) enjoy no increase in opportunities 2) have no increase in efficiency with wide open shots. It is absurd.