How do we measure Giannis' playoff run this year?

[StrongLurk]

27/14/6 on 61 TS% - only 31mpg.

31.2 PER, 11.2 BPM...

These are all elite numbers, yet his team went out 1-4 in the second round (Giannis did get hurt at the end but the Heat looked like they were gonna win no matter what).

So how do we measure Giannis' short run? I believe guys like Shaq and Hakeem had many elite runs stat-wise, but they were short and lost in the first or second round. I would like to think ISH is maybe capable of looking at things besides just wins and losses when judging individual players.

Right now Giannis still lacks a good, varied scoring skill set which is a big weakness. He kind of reminds me of a more athletic KG, but without the jumpshot. Regardless, he definitely gives me more big-man vibes who just plays on the perimeter due to this era.

[elementally morale]

Good job, good effort.

[Roundball_Rock]

If this happened in a vacuum it could be dismissed (one year, one series, and they could have won the last 2 games if he didn't get hurt) but some of the red flags here were present in the ECF last year. The stats show he was generally productive. Only guys like Giannis, LeBron would get attacked for 27/14/6 in 31 MPG (31/16/7 per 36 splits) so that tells you what rare air he is in. However, we saw his flaws get exposed by the opposing team in key moments (as well as flaws in the Bucks' roster).

As you noted, though, many HOF players had early exits. Hakeem didn't get out the first round five years in a row in his prime (including missing the playoffs in 92'). No one even remembers that. Similarly, I doubt people will remember this either. The scenario I see where it could be held against him is if this trend continues throughout his career but I doubt it. Eventually he will get a jumper and diversify his scoring game (e.g., a post game) since he won't be able to rely on athleticism forever or for 48 minutes in big games. What people are saying about Giannis now is what was said about LeBron in 07' when the Spurs dared him to shoot and he kept bricking. We know how that story went in future years.

[RRR3]

His stats are inflated by his series versus the trashcan Magic and a game 4 in which he was hot for 11 minutes before getting hurt (and his team was losing when he got hurt). In the first 3 games of the Heat series he averaged about 23 PPG on a horrendous 50.5 TS% which was a huge reason his team was down 0-3.

[ImKobe]

His stats are inflated by his series versus the trashcan Magic and a game 4 in which he was hot for 11 minutes before getting hurt (and his team was losing when he got hurt). In the first 3 games of the Heat series he averaged about 23 PPG on a horrendous 50.5 TS% which was a huge reason his team was down 0-3.

He had 19 on 8/10 shooting in 11 minutes while his teammates started out 1/12 and he ended up as their 2nd leading scorer despite the game going OT. Middleton scored 0 points in the 4th but they stumbled their way into an OT win. They get swept if Giannis doesn't play Game 4.

[Kblaze8855]

He played fine. Not as great as you could make it look with raw numbers and not as bad as the stat geeks would try to make it look with whichever advanced ones they pick while ignoring the good ones. He shot something like 50, 55, and 80% from the field aside from the one actual bad shooting game. All told his performance is roughly in line with a usual great players. Better players have had worse and worse players have had better. Generally unremarkable. Could be a random Karl Malone, KG, David Robinson, or Shaq run and not stand out. Shaq would have even more haters than Giannis does now after that 21 or whatever ppg series getting swept in those early laker years. Just standard shit.

[Roundball_Rock]

Plus the focus on the Miami series is basically of a 3 game sample size, during which he was healthy for 2 games. For all we know he could have come back and beasted in the next 2 or 3 games. That is certainly what he was doing in the brief part of Game 4 he played in.

Sample sizes matter and the PO are a small sample to begin with unless a team makes a deep run. There were people touting playoff "runs" of 3-4 games in another thread. 3-4 games don't tell us much. My concern is only that what we saw vs. Miami foots with what we saw vs. Toronto last year but it's only in the context of Giannis. He was still putting up numbers most of the HOF would envy in those series.

[Doranku]

:lol This forum makes me laugh. b2b MVP and DPOY loses three straight games to the 5 seed shooting 3-22 on jumpshots. He gets injured, and what happens? The Bucks win a game after losing 3 straight with Giannis. :oldlol: For the ~7 quarters that the Bucks were without Giannis, they unquestionably played better than they did when he was on the floor. Can't make this shit up.

He played fine though. Just fine.

This is why you can't just look at a box score to determine how a player played. This series from Giannis was on par with 2011 Bran and 2004 Kobe.

[RRR3]

:lol This forum makes me laugh. b2b MVP and DPOY loses three straight games to the 5 seed shooting 3-22 on jumpshots. He gets injured, and what happens? The Bucks win a game after losing 3 straight with Giannis. :oldlol: For the ~7 quarters that the Bucks were without Giannis, they unquestionably played better than they did when he was on the floor. Can't make this shit up.

He played fine though. Just fine.

This is why you can't just look at a box score to determine how a player played. This series from Giannis was on par with 2011 Bran and 2004 Kobe.
No one in the league gets held to the same standards of LeBron and Kobe. This thread is further proof

[Roundball_Rock]

We aren't excusing it. We are just not overreacting to 3 games or exaggerating it.

[Doranku]

We aren't excusing it. We are just not overreacting to 3 games or exaggerating it.

When does it not become an overreaction? Because you can draw many parallels between this series and his series last year against the Raptors.

Looking at the numbers now... Giannis was 11-51 (22%) on shots not at the rim against Toronto. :lol Jesus Christ. How do you win when your best player can only score less than 3 feet away from the basket?

[Roundball_Rock]

When does it not become an overreaction? Because you can draw many parallels between this series and his series last year against the Raptors.

He obviously has weaknesses that opposing teams are exploiting--and will keep doing so until he improves but even the best legends had flaws early on. LeBron couldn't shoot either early in his career. MJ was a ballhog. KAJ was not physically strong enough to not have issues with physical defenders like Wilt, Thurmond. They worked on them and the rest is history.

A lot of people are crowing this exposes Giannis as a fraud when most likely this will be remembered as a small bump on the road to what he ultimately becomes. He was still 23/14/6 against Toronto and 22/11/5 against Miami (23/13/7 in his full games). His actual play was worse than his stats but that doesn't mean we ignore production completely either. You don't stumble your way to 23/13/7 in the playoffs.


Giannis was 11-51 (22%) on shots not at the rim against Toronto. Jesus Christ. How do you win when your best player can only score less than 3 feet away from the basket?

You don't. He needs to improve and they need to get him a championship caliber second option, which they likely won't be able to do. He will probably have to leave Milwaukee to win--but he needs to do his part too.

[Kblaze8855]

ISH over reacts...never under.

Nothing about his playoff run is in any way remarkable either way by the standards of an mvp level superstar. Pull a random year from David Robinson....Dave Cowens....Moses or Karl Malone...Dr.J.

Whoever it is. You’re gonna get pretty good numbers and likely a second round loss on average with whatever it was being totally forgotten by history because it doesn’t matter.

Positive or negative nothing happened worth a big argument. 27/14/6 and a second round loss while injured with the averages largely off an easier first round opponent? That’s everyday legend shit.

Go find a list of someone’s top 30 or whatever and pull a random year from their prime. You’ll get something along these lines that nobody has brought up for 25 years.

[hold this L]

No one in the league gets held to the same standards of LeBron and Kobe. This thread is further proof
And a certain Chef.

[hold this L]

ISH over reacts...never under.

Nothing about his playoff run is in any way remarkable either way by the standards of an mvp level superstar. Pull a random year from David Robinson....Dave Cowens....Moses or Karl Malone...Dr.J.

Whoever it is. You’re gonna get pretty good numbers and likely a second round loss on average with whatever it was being totally forgotten by history because it doesn’t matter.

Positive or negative nothing happened worth a big argument. 27/14/6 and a second round loss while injured with the averages largely off an easier first round opponent? That’s everyday legend shit.

Go find a list of someone’s top 30 or whatever and pull a random year from their prime. You’ll get something along these lines that nobody has brought up for 25 years.
Two years in a row he got easily shut down. He's not developing a jump shot at an elite level, the only change will be if he joins a playmaker, or plays with another superstar in the league. Otherwise he ain't making an NBA finals any time soon, which is pathetic considering how weak the East is this year.

[guy]

Perfect example of how stats don't tell the whole story cause I literally see no argument statistically, raw or advanced, that it wasn't a transcendent and great playoff run. Clearly it wasn't though.

[Roundball_Rock]

Nothing about his playoff run is in any way remarkable either way by the standards of an mvp level superstar. Pull a random year from David Robinson....Dave Cowens....Moses or Karl Malone...Dr.J.


Yeah, why are people acting like Giannis is the only MVP level guy to have a "bad" series? Peak D Rob went from 30 PPG to 20 PPG in the 94' playoffs, got bounced in the first round with a 56 win team and the next year people were back to debating Robinson vs. Hakeem as the best player (which didn't end until the WCF).


Two years in a row he got easily shut down. He's not developing a jump shot at an elite level, the only change will be if he joins a playmaker, or plays with another superstar in the league.

He doesn't need an elite J with his physical gifts. He just needs to be solid enough to make teams pay for their defensive strategy. Having some real post moves would help too. If we are saying stuff like 23/14/7 (which most of the HOF would kill for) is his absolute floor, then imagine him with a decent J or post game.

[Kblaze8855]

Two years in a row he got easily shut down. He's not developing a jump shot at an elite level, the only change will be if he joins a playmaker, or plays with another superstar in the league. Otherwise he ain't making an NBA finals any time soon, which is pathetic considering how weak the East is this year.

22/11/5 on 51% shooting(while missing all but 11 minutes of one game) while being the obvious focus of the entire defense isn’t exactly a big deal. Nor does it make you easy to stop. It’s like calling Shaq easy to stop when he had series like that. A whole team being prepared to collapse on you in order to force you out of your comfort zone causing you to only have regular HOF numbers instead of top 10 all time numbers is hardly a shocking thing if you have watched a lot of playoffs.

Players we would all agree had supreme skill have a series like that all the time. It just melts into the larger career and goes unnoticed just like this will.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah, why are people acting like Giannis is the only MVP level guy to have a "bad" series? Peak D Rob went from 30 PPG to 20 PPG in the 94' playoffs, got bounced in the first round with a 56 win team and the next year people were back to debating Robinson vs. Hakeem as the best player (which didn't end until the WCF).



He doesn't need an elite J with his physical gifts. He just needs to be solid enough to make teams pay for their defensive strategy. Having some real post moves would help too. If we are saying stuff like 23/14/7 (which most of the HOF would kill for) is his absolute floor, then imagine him with a decent J or post game.


What’s funny to me is that people pick whatever reason they want to explain a performance in an effort to make themselves right. So....Giannis not having skill is why he got “shut down” but Bird can put up 18/11 on 43% and get swept in the second round in his prime....Chris Paul 13/9 on 36% in his prime....Kobe 23 on 38%. Apparently such things can happen to people of immense skill...but when it’s Giannis or Shaq before him or the other few people we choose....it shows a lack of skill and being easy to shut down.

Truth is....the shit just happens. The few people it only happens to 1 or 2 times are GOAT level and the only person saying Giannis is that is that rudeboy guy who insists he’s better than Hakeem.

[DMAVS41]

What’s funny to me is that people pick whatever reason they want to explain a performance in an effort to make themselves right. So....Giannis not having skill is why he got “shut down” but Bird can put up 18/11 on 43% and get swept in the second round in his prime....Chris Paul 13/9 on 36% in his prime....Kobe 23 on 38%. Apparently such things can happen to people of immense skill...but when it’s Giannis or Shaq before him or the other few people we choose....it shows a lack of skill and being easy to shut down.

Truth is....the shit just happens. The few people it only happens to 1 or 2 times are GOAT level and the only person saying Giannis is that is that rudeboy guy who insists he’s better than Hakeem.

Could not agree more.

All that skill and shooting in the mid-range that everyone here creams themselves over now didn't prevent Dirk from struggling and losing. Chris "he plays the right way" Paul has lost every year of his career in the 2nd round or earlier outside of the 18 Rockets.

This stuff happens. It happens, even to the best players ever, a couple times...and it would happen a lot more if those same players were playing with Middleton/Lopez instead of the first ballot hall of famers that title teams usually have. We went over the list a few days ago. Middleton would maybe be like the 5th worst 2nd option to ever win a title since 1980.

[hold this L]

But Dirk, Kobe and Bird also had amazing years when they went off and won. I don't see Giannis doing this unless he has an amazing supertalent next to him to hide his deficiencies.

[DMAVS41]

But Dirk, Kobe and Bird also had amazing years when they went off and won. I don't see Giannis doing this unless he has an amazing supertalent next to him to hide his deficiencies.

Right.

And if he doesn't ever do anything noteworthy with similar circumstances...then he'll be ranked accordingly. It is just way too early to start saying things like "he'll never recover" and "he'll never win"

And, by ranked accordingly, I mean he's already an all-time great and first ballot hall of famer...the questions left are how great and how high he can move up in the rankings with health. Greatness is already solidified whether people here want to accept it or not. Doesn't matter...he's already minted.

[Kblaze8855]

But Dirk, Kobe and Bird also had amazing years when they went off and won. I don't see Giannis doing this unless he has an amazing supertalent next to him to hide his deficiencies.

At 25 most have not. Hell at any age most legends have not. Most who did had exactly what you mentioned to help make it happen. Kevin Durant is one of the most skilled players ever....remind me what he went off and won without a super talent next to him.

Hell tell me the season he played without a super talent next to him.

I don’t know who the 2020 version of peak Shaq is but I know he isn’t playing next to Giannis as he was when Kobe went off and won at this point of his career.

Has Lebron won without a super talent?

2013 Wade May have been below the super talent point by then I suppose but Lebron is hardly the example to use against Giannis considering his first Cleveland run losses with back to back 60+ win teams without making the finals.

Not winning without super talent isn’t saying much.

The teams with super talents(relative to their leagues) are usually the ones who win.

The exceptions only come along every 10-15 years and often involve injury.

[RRR3]

And a certain Chef.
Not at all. It’s a massive deal on ISH whenever LeBron loses a single game or plays poorly. It was similar for Kobe. Curry is not expected to never miss a shot like those two were by their haters. It’s not the same. No player besides MJ was as popular as those two so it makes sense.

[insidious301]

Not sold on Giannis' game to be frank. I think he is fantastic on defense however his offense leaves a lot on the table. Checkout those at rim percentages against Toronto last year. Or the low percentage on jumpshots and lack of go-to moves when the game slows. People are quick to point out his injury, but he wasn't all that great before then either. 50% true shooting (against miami) is not getting it done nor MVP caliber.

He needs to hit the lab asap, and work on his game. Milwaukee has to get a legit second option for him as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

What’s funny to me is that people pick whatever reason they want to explain a performance in an effort to make themselves right. So....Giannis not having skill is why he got “shut down” but Bird can put up 18/11 on 43% and get swept in the second round in his prime....Chris Paul 13/9 on 36% in his prime....Kobe 23 on 38%. Apparently such things can happen to people of immense skill...but when it’s Giannis or Shaq before him or the other few people we choose....it shows a lack of skill and being easy to shut down.

Truth is....the shit just happens. The few people it only happens to 1 or 2 times are GOAT level and the only person saying Giannis is that is that rudeboy guy who insists he’s better than Hakeem.

Yup. Great defenses will limit even the greatest of players at times, teams can match up well against what would be a superior team against the other 28 teams in the NBA (like the Heat did against the Bucks), and we are talking small sample sizes. For all we know Giannis would have beasted in games 4-6 like he did for the part of Game 4 he played.


And if he doesn't ever do anything noteworthy with similar circumstances...then he'll be ranked accordingly. It is just way too early to start saying things like "he'll never recover" and "he'll never win"

Yeah, he is just 25. Compare him to MJ and LeBron at that point.

Giannis: 2 MVP's, 0 finals, 1 ECF
LeBron: 2 MVP's, 1 finals, 2 ECF
Jordan: 1 MVP, 0 finals, 1 ECF

People are acting like everyone came in and won right off the bat when people like Magic, Duncan, Russell are outliers who were drafted to ideal situations on teams that already had superstars or like Kareem were on a team that got that type of player early in his career. The Bucks have no Kareem, Robinson, Cousy, or Oscar. :oldlol:


And, by ranked accordingly, I mean he's already an all-time great and first ballot hall of famer...the questions left are how great and how high he can move up in the rankings with health. Greatness is already solidified whether people here want to accept it or not. Doesn't matter...he's already minted.

Yeah, if he retires tomorrow he is already a HOF player. 2 MVP's, 4x all-NBA, 2x all-NBA first team (assuming he makes the first this year...), 5x all-star, DPOY, 3x all-D. That's more than most HOF players did in entire careers let alone at 25.

[tontoz]

I was listening to the Lowe post podcast recently. Lowe and his guest (arnovitz I think) just trashes the bucks coaching relative to Miami. Said the bucks were basically clueless on routine plays while coach Spo was playing 3d chess.

[WhiteKyrie]

Perfect example of how stats don't tell the whole story cause I literally see no argument statistically, raw or advanced, that it wasn't a transcendent and great playoff run. Clearly it wasn't though.
All it did was validate all the flaws and issues with his game people have levied at him for over 3 years now. And it hasn’t changed.

He puts up gaudy stats, but to the knowledgeable basketball eye test person, he still has many exploitable flaws in his game. Hell, he was disappointing in FIBA recently last summer as well.

He’s this odd modern big man, with slight perimeter dribbling skills, allowed to travel and try to force his way to the rim off the dribble.

Build a good defensive wall with layers to defense (let alone have quality time protection as well) and he’s toast.

No finesse, craftiness, jumper or varied scoring skill set to excel in the playoffs against good teams or above average set half court defenses.

[iamgine]

We can't evaluate him because his idiot coach is using him wrong. This would be like taking Steph Curry and ask him to just stand in the corner to shoot. How would we evaluate that?

Giannis should be in the post position on half court offense, not handling the ball. He should play exactly like Hakeem Olajuwon while Lopez space the floor. Instead they wall him easily time after time.

[WhiteKyrie]

We can't evaluate him because his idiot coach is using him wrong. This would be like taking Steph Curry and ask him to just stand in the corner to shoot. How would we evaluate that?

Giannis should be in the post position on half court offense, not handling the ball. He should play exactly like Hakeem Olajuwon while Lopez space the floor. Instead they wall him easily time after time.
Giannis has a low post game? Giannis also has a low post game like Hakeem?

[Euroleague]

He played fine. Not as great as you could make it look with raw numbers and not as bad as the stat geeks would try to make it look with whichever advanced ones they pick while ignoring the good ones. He shot something like 50, 55, and 80% from the field aside from the one actual bad shooting game. All told his performance is roughly in line with a usual great players. Better players have had worse and worse players have had better. Generally unremarkable. Could be a random Karl Malone, KG, David Robinson, or Shaq run and not stand out. Shaq would have even more haters than Giannis does now after that 21 or whatever ppg series getting swept in those early laker years. Just standard shit.

For years you have been making excuses for Giannis. No matter how bad he plays in any big game in the NBA playoffs or with Greece's national team, you always say it wasn't his fault and he played fine.

[Bronbron23]

he's still young plus he doesn't have the greatest pieces around him. What did mj do at 26? What did bron do? At the time the talk around mj was he was a great individual player but couldn't win chips. Lebron on the other hand was giving us one of the worst choke jobs ever. Lets see what greek does in the next year or 2. He has to improve offensively but i believe he will. With that and a improved supporting cast he has a good chance at a championship run.

[Euroleague]

I was listening to the Lowe post podcast recently. Lowe and his guest (arnovitz I think) just trashes the bucks coaching relative to Miami. Said the bucks were basically clueless on routine plays while coach Spo was playing 3d chess.


We can't evaluate him because his idiot coach is using him wrong. This would be like taking Steph Curry and ask him to just stand in the corner to shoot. How would we evaluate that?

Giannis should be in the post position on half court offense, not handling the ball. He should play exactly like Hakeem Olajuwon while Lopez space the floor. Instead they wall him easily time after time.

So every NBA coach and Greek national team coach that Giannis has had, and all of the disappointing playoff games and FIBA elimination games that he has had, which are going on for years and years now - it was all the fault of those numerous different coaches.........

Poor Giannis, he has had the worst coaches of any basketball player in history..........

The amount of BS excuses made for Giannis not being able to shoot jumpers, not being able to hit free throws at a proper rate, not being able to score more than 5 feet away from the basket, not being able to properly handle the ball, not being able to properly read and pass out of double teams, not having any low post moves, or any offensive moves in general, other than the Euro step (which he travels on almost every time) is ridiculous.

[iamgine]

So every NBA coach and Greek national team coach that Giannis has had, and all of the disappointing playoff games and FIBA elimination games that he has had, which are going on for years and years now - it was all the fault of those numerous different coaches.........

Poor Giannis, he has had the worst coaches of any basketball player in history..........

The amount of BS excuses made for Giannis not being able to shoot or properly handle the ball is nauseating.
Uh no one said every NBA coach let alone Greek coach.

Please learn to read properly.

[Roundball_Rock]

he's still young plus he doesn't have the greatest pieces around him. What did mj do at 26? What did bron do? At the time the talk around mj was he was a great individual player but couldn't win chips. Lebron on the other hand was giving us one of the worst choke jobs ever. Lets see what greek does in the next year or 2. He has to improve offensively but i believe he will. With that and a improved supporting cast he has a good chance at a championship run.

Agreed. Neither MJ or LeBron had a ring by age 25.

MJ by age 25: 1 MVP, 0 rings, 0 finals, 1 ECF
LeBron by age 25: 2 MVP's, 0 rings, 1 finals, 2 ECF
Giannis by age 25: 2 MVP's, 0 rings, 0 finals, 1 ECF

He compares well.

[hold this L]

At 25 most have not. Hell at any age most legends have not. Most who did had exactly what you mentioned to help make it happen. Kevin Durant is one of the most skilled players ever....remind me what he went off and won without a super talent next to him.

Hell tell me the season he played without a super talent next to him.

I don’t know who the 2020 version of peak Shaq is but I know he isn’t playing next to Giannis as he was when Kobe went off and won at this point of his career.

Has Lebron won without a super talent?

2013 Wade May have been below the super talent point by then I suppose but Lebron is hardly the example to use against Giannis considering his first Cleveland run losses with back to back 60+ win teams without making the finals.

Not winning without super talent isn’t saying much.

The teams with super talents(relative to their leagues) are usually the ones who win.

The exceptions only come along every 10-15 years and often involve injury.

Right.

And if he doesn't ever do anything noteworthy with similar circumstances...then he'll be ranked accordingly. It is just way too early to start saying things like "he'll never recover" and "he'll never win"

And, by ranked accordingly, I mean he's already an all-time great and first ballot hall of famer...the questions left are how great and how high he can move up in the rankings with health. Greatness is already solidified whether people here want to accept it or not. Doesn't matter...he's already minted.
Those people have actual skills that were improved over time. Giannis is not turning into a good shooter or even ok one. He is one of the best physical freaks of nature in the history of the sport but unlike Lebron, he doesn't have the skill to be more than that. I never said he won't win, I said the only for this fraud to win is if he joins another top end level talent that can make up for his massive deficiencies.


Not at all. It’s a massive deal on ISH whenever LeBron loses a single game or plays poorly. It was similar for Kobe. Curry is not expected to never miss a shot like those two were by their haters. It’s not the same. No player besides MJ was as popular as those two so it makes sense.
The guy is still rent free when people mention and he hasn't played in a year.

[DMAVS41]

Those people have actual skills that were improved over time. Giannis is not turning into a good shooter or even ok one. He is one of the best physical freaks of nature in the history of the sport but unlike Lebron, he doesn't have the skill to be more than that. I never said he won't win, I said the only for this fraud to win is if he joins another top end level talent that can make up for his massive deficiencies.


The guy is still rent free when people mention and he hasn't played in a year.

Like I said. If he never does anything noteworthy given the circumstances of his help...he will be ranked accordingly. Nobody is taking Giannis over those guys because of how good they were combined with the results they had. I've said it before, I don't care how many MVP's or DPOY's Giannis gets, he's never moving up past certain guys until he does things that those other guys did...sometimes in worse circumstances. Take Dirk...you can't take Giannis over him because Dirk was leading teams to the finals...beating the 06 Spurs...a team much better than Miami...with less help. He then won a title with a team about as good as the current Bucks...beating better competition.

So, I understand the point and agree with it.

All I'm asking is that we don't say things like "he'll never win" or his "legacy is forever damaged"

Also, the whole skill thing is overblown. Dirk lost in the first round in 07...and he's one of the most skilled players ever. Paul has done nothing in the playoffs his entire career essentially. Durant couldn't get it done playing on very good OKC teams.

The truth is...it is really hard to win in the playoffs if you don't have a HOF running mate...and even then it is by no means easy. It doesn't excuse bad play. Giannis sucked in this series...I probably think he was worse than most, but I'm also not a big enough idiot to pretend like his help is great...or that he is somehow never going to do something special.

Like we said...people should know better now.

[Bronbron23]

Agreed. Neither MJ or LeBron had a ring by age 25.

MJ by age 25: 1 MVP, 0 rings, 0 finals, 1 ECF
LeBron by age 25: 2 MVP's, 0 rings, 1 finals, 2 ECF
Giannis by age 25: 2 MVP's, 0 rings, 0 finals, 1 ECF

He compares well.

yeah man. People quickly forget the narrative around mj and bron at that stage. Wasnt much different than greek now. Shit give greek phil jackson and pip or spols, wade and bosh and id like his chances too.

[Roundball_Rock]

yeah man. People quickly forget the narrative around mj and bron at that stage. Wasnt much different than greek now. Shit give greek phil jackson and pip or spols, wade and bosh and id like his chances too.

Yup. LeBron especially is the parallel because some of what is said about Giannis was said about him: athletic freak but until he learns to shoot, his teams won't win playoff series against good teams. We know how the rest of the career unfolded.

With MJ it was that he was a ballhog who put up big numbers for himself but didn't play winning ball. Few people even remember that critique since MJ now is considered by many the benchmark for winning.

[Lil-Shrimp]

Horrible run. Giannis is now a joke because the Bucks managed to win one game against the Heat WITHOUT HIM, a MVP and DOPY!

:roll:

[Kblaze8855]

For years you have been making excuses for Giannis. No matter how bad he plays in any big game in the NBA playoffs or with Greece's national team, you always say it wasn't his fault and he played fine.

For one....I’m not sure you could find me saying any series loss was any individuals fault. Second....if I’ve been saying whatever you think it is in defense of him for years obviously I’ve been right about it not much mattering because in that time span he would have gone from like....borderline all star to obvious first ballot hall of famer which he is now.

AmI supposed to feel a need to defend my record of dismissing haters on someone who was probably 21 when I started when he’s now 25 and going to the hall of fame and the target of every team in the league including the one that just knocked his team out? Riley started planning for 2021 to get him 2 years ago.

His standing in the league today obviously makes my supporting him years ago as a lesser player the right call. People have been on some “What say you noooow?” shit to me about some young guy I said would be fine since that young guy was Kevin Garnett(he was younger than Giannis is now when I got here).

I don’t care about these yearly repetitive hater complaints when these guys don’t win. Not winning and giving your haters ammo is what everyone but Bill Russell does most of their career and many have the same haters even as they stack rings.

The results don’t matter to people as much as they pretend. When he’s super teamed up like everyone gets these days the claim will be “But he only ___ because he’s playing with ____” as we ignore who everyone else has been playing with.

Its an endless cycle. It will be like 7 years before we have a good idea what his legacy is. But the worst it could be is middle tier hall of fame. He’s won more than many legends ever did already. His floor is like....hell I don’t know. He’s probably already had a better career than say...Alonzo Mourning or George Gervin. What’s the notch up from there but below the true elites?

Maybe he’s between the Zo level and the Karl Malone level? I’m not sure who else is in there. Guys like Harden and Nash maybe who have hardware but never accomplished anything of note winning wise? People can talk how offensively polished they were in comparison but not to any actual difference in accomplishment nor can they make much of a case total game wise unless you’re going to pretend Giannis isn’t better at literally everything on defense.

That general “Bunch of awards but lost in the conference finals” tier of success. He’s already there now.

If that’s your floor...the people saying you’re doing fine are hard to argue with.

[WhiteKyrie]

Let’s be honest. Giannis, Westbrick and Harden? Overrated. Stats can lie. It alone shouldn’t be the only thing relied upon.

[light]

High PER is apparently meaningless if you cannot will wins in the clutch.

Giannis would be a better player if his PER was lower but he was more confident in the most critical moments.

[DMAVS41]

Let’s be honest. Giannis, Westbrick and Harden? Overrated. Stats can lie. It alone shouldn’t be the only thing relied upon.

Who solely relies on stats? Everyone factors in results based on circumstances to different degrees.

But you also can't say everything else other than winning in the playoffs is meaningless and penalize a guy like Giannis for winning so many regular season games with a good, but hardly great, supporting cast.

While at the same time ignoring all of the other players...some clearly better than Giannis...that have lost just like he did.

[Roundball_Rock]

This ring hugging stuff is out of control. In basketball--far more than any other sport--the champ is the best team. This isn't the NHL where a 7 seed can have home ice in the ECF since the other team was the 8 seed. This isn't the MLB or NFL where wild cards win regularly. If a player isn't on the best team, spare all the "they suck because they didn't win." How often does the best team not win?

The Warriors lost last year due to injuries but would have won easily otherwise. In 16', 11', 04' the best teams choked in the finals. So over the last 30 years we have 3 chokes and 1 injury induced lost. Years the best team won: 1990-2003, 2005-2010, 2012-2018.

The Bucks aren't the best team. The consensus is the two LA teams are the best.

[Lil-Shrimp]

This ring hugging stuff is out of control. In basketball--far more than any other sport--the champ is the best team. This isn't the NHL where a 7 seed can have home ice in the ECF since the other team was the 8 seed. This isn't the MLB or NFL where wild cards win regularly. If a player isn't on the best team, spare all the "they suck because they didn't win." How often does the best team not win?

The Warriors lost last year due to injuries but would have won easily otherwise. In 16', 11', 04' the best teams choked in the finals. So over the last 30 years we have 3 chokes and 1 injury induced lost. Years the best team won: 1990-2003, 2005-2010, 2012-2018.

The Bucks aren't the best team. The consensus is the two LA teams are the best.

Did you even watch game 4 and 5 Heat vs Bucks? His supporting cast put up a better fight against the 5th seed Heat than Giannis did.

Khris Middleton was hitting big shots in critical moments. What was Yawnnis doing? Bricking shots, turning the ball over cause he can't dribble. Unable to score in the halfcourt cause he has no skill at all. The Bucks could be the best team if their "MVP" wasn't so useless in a half-court offense

[Roundball_Rock]

I watched the Bulls without Rose win a game against the Heat too. One game. :lol

[Euroleague]

For one....I’m not sure you could find me saying any series loss was any individuals fault. Second....if I’ve been saying whatever you think it is in defense of him for years obviously I’ve been right about it not much mattering because in that time span he would have gone from like....borderline all star to obvious first ballot hall of famer which he is now.

AmI supposed to feel a need to defend my record of dismissing haters on someone who was probably 21 when I started when he’s now 25 and going to the hall of fame and the target of every team in the league including the one that just knocked his team out? Riley started planning for 2021 to get him 2 years ago.

His standing in the league today obviously makes my supporting him years ago as a lesser player the right call. People have been on some “What say you noooow?” shit to me about some young guy I said would be fine since that young guy was Kevin Garnett(he was younger than Giannis is now when I got here).

I don’t care about these yearly repetitive hater complaints when these guys don’t win. Not winning and giving your haters ammo is what everyone but Bill Russell does most of their career and many have the same haters even as they stack rings.

The results don’t matter to people as much as they pretend. When he’s super teamed up like everyone gets these days the claim will be “But he only ___ because he’s playing with ____” as we ignore who everyone else has been playing with.

Its an endless cycle. It will be like 7 years before we have a good idea what his legacy is. But the worst it could be is middle tier hall of fame. He’s won more than many legends ever did already. His floor is like....hell I don’t know. He’s probably already had a better career than say...Alonzo Mourning or George Gervin. What’s the notch up from there but below the true elites?

Maybe he’s between the Zo level and the Karl Malone level? I’m not sure who else is in there. Guys like Harden and Nash maybe who have hardware but never accomplished anything of note winning wise? People can talk how offensively polished they were in comparison but not to any actual difference in accomplishment nor can they make much of a case total game wise unless you’re going to pretend Giannis isn’t better at literally everything on defense.

That general “Bunch of awards but lost in the conference finals” tier of success. He’s already there now.

If that’s your floor...the people saying you’re doing fine are hard to argue with.

None of that has anything at all to do with what I said. That every single time he plays bad in the playoffs and his team loses a series (Raptors / Heat), and every single time he plays bad in an elimination game with Greek NT (every single time he played with Greece so far), you are making posts that in every single instance, claim Giannis played fine or even good, and that it was always something else that causes his team to lose.

His coach, the system, his teammates, etc. It's always something else that caused the loss, no matter how badly Giannis played. When Greece lost to Croatia in 2016, and got eliminated from the Olympics, with Giannis having probably the worst game any player ever had in any game ever in the history of the national team (seriously, it was like the worst game any player ever had for the NT).........you were saying the loss wasn't at all his fault, etc.

I remember last year at the 2019 FIBA World Cup, you were making excuses after Alex Garcia, at age 39, and 6-3 shut Giannis down. Again it wasn't Giannis' fault. It wasn't Giannis' fault that he struggled to play in half court against the Raptors and Heat in the playoffs. No matter what, "he played fine" and it was the fault of a coach, or a system, or other players.

I'm not talking about his accomplishments, or what he might do in the future. That's a straw man, and isn't at all pertinent to the issue of Giannis never in his life played a bad game, or never once in his life contributed to a team losing a game, if we are to believe your posts about him.

I am not talking about what he has done at age 25, or if he gets better or whatever. He could go on to win championships or whatever. That's not what I am talking about. I am talking about the fact that Giannis is immune from any criticism at all in your posts (no matter how badly he plays) for years now.

[Roundball_Rock]

Half the HOF would love the numbers Giannis compiled while "playing bad". In another thread multiple posters are calling Manu an "alpha" and his prime line was 17/4/4.

Stats aren't everything but you don't back into something like 23/14/6.

[CTbasketball92]

Giannis was bad and he's going to look like a bad choice for MVP yet again.

[MJistheGOAT]

Stats are nice, but in the eye test he was totally undeperforming considering he is a B2B MVP and DPOY, one would expect him dominating both sides of the court against a great but not elite Miami Heat.

He needs with urgency a jumpshot or post play clinic this offseason.
Or join the collusion wagon and get traded to Clippers LOL

[WhiteKyrie]

No one is saying Giannis is trash, just that his regular season numbers much like Harden, makes them heinously overrated in context via their playoff performances.

[DMAVS41]

No one is saying Giannis is trash, just that his regular season numbers much like Harden, makes them heinously overrated in context via their playoff performances.

I'll bite.

Where should Harden and Giannis rank in the current league.

Give us your rankings until they are both included.

[Bronbron23]

Yup. LeBron especially is the parallel because some of what is said about Giannis was said about him: athletic freak but until he learns to shoot, his teams won't win playoff series against good teams. We know how the rest of the career unfolded.

With MJ it was that he was a ballhog who put up big numbers for himself but didn't play winning ball. Few people even remember that critique since MJ now is considered by many the benchmark for winning.

yeah man so true

[knicksman]

you get superstars because only superstars could do "it". If what they could do is duplicate the roles of role players then they really means nothing despite their stats/impact. For example if we put giannis instead of kawhi in the raptors, giannis has more impact than kawhi but hes redundant with gasol and lowry so they wouldnt win a ring with him. Whereas kawhi just provides only a superstar could provide thats why he won right away. Thats why kobe/jordan are winners despite their stats coz they focus on what matters instead of competing with role players.

[BigShotBob]

Two questions for those defending Giannis.

1) How much blame would you put on him?

2) Why should Giannis have a second option that has to be more skilled than himself?

[DMAVS41]

Two questions for those defending Giannis.

1) How much blame would you put on him?

2) Why should Giannis have a second option that has to be more skilled than himself?

1. A lot. He played like crap offensively when it mattered and his defense didn't make much of an impact. When he played...the Heat looked like the Mavericks on offense. In fact, they had a higher ortg through the first 3 games than the Mavs did this season. And, given that the games were close...it magnifies his blame because it wasn't like they were just getting blown out. Again though...pretty much everyone has played series like this. Some have won because their team was loaded...some have lost...even the best players ever.

2. I don't know, why did basically everyone, including players much better than Giannis, need far better players than Middleton and far better teams than the Bucks to win titles? I'd flip it around and simply ask...why is Giannis expected to win titles with less help than most players ever had that won?

[AlternativeAcc.]

1. A lot. He played like crap offensively when it mattered and his defense didn't make much of an impact. When he played...the Heat looked like the Mavericks on offense. In fact, they had a higher ortg through the first 3 games than the Mavs did this season. And, given that the games were close...it magnifies his blame because it wasn't like they were just getting blown out. Again though...pretty much everyone has played series like this. Some have won because their team was loaded...some have lost...even the best players ever.

2. I don't know, why did basically everyone, including players much better than Giannis, need far better players than Middleton and far better teams than the Bucks to win titles? I'd flip it around and simply ask...why is Giannis expected to win titles with less help than most players ever had that won?

3. They just got swept by the Heat and won their only game WITHOUT Giannis

Bucks without Giannis > Heat w/o Butler


Here you go with your laughable nonsense yet again.. sigh.

[ThatCoolKid]

Giannis played poorly in Game 1. Rest of the series he was okay. Bucks limitation was that they don't have a real perimeter creator. Giannis for whatever reason tends to not demand the ball for long stretches of time, whether that's coaching related or not. He would benefit greatly playing with a real PG like a Rondo/CP3/Rubio type.

[Kblaze8855]

Stats are nice, but in the eye test he was totally undeperforming considering he is a B2B MVP and DPOY, one would expect him dominating both sides of the court against a great but not elite Miami Heat.

He needs with urgency a jumpshot or post play clinic this offseason.
Or join the collusion wagon and get traded to Clippers LOL


I think the fundamental problem is here.

You expect an MVP to dominate when generally....they dont. The MVP usually goes to someone wildly outperforming their teammates or someone on a team too good not to give it to someone from that team. When its the former? They rarely dominate. Hell either way they rarely do.

Think about years the MVP was dominant in the playoffs.

2020?

No.

2019?

No.

2018?

Harden vs the Warriors? They gave it a fight but....no.

2017?

Westbrook in the first round? No.

2016?

The Warriors won 6 of the first 8 games with Curry playing a total of 40 minutes in those games and knocking out the Rockets in a 33 point blowout he didnt play. They were tearing the west up without him. He was good but hardly dominant and the finals is well remembered. Talking dominance? Thats a no.

2015?

Curry was good. I dont know about dominant. You can call it that if you like.

2014?

KD vs the Spurs? Id call it ok by his standards. Clearly not dominant though.

12 and 13 you have Lebron who was at his peak and at times dominant.

11? Rose. Not dominant.

09 and 10 Lebron? Great numbers getting upset in the second round one year and a mocked to this day performance the other. Maybe call 09 dominant if its a numbers thing for you.

Kobe in 08? In some of the west playoffs yes. Not the finals. Overall you could call it dominant I suppose.

Dirk in 07? One of if not the worst MVP performance ever.

Nash back to back? Pretty good but hardly dominant. I wouldnt argue if you wanted to call it that though.

04 KG? At times dominant. Especially vs the Kings.

Duncan? Dominant in 03 and great in 02.

AI in 01? People will never come to agreement on that. Team did better than its talent and ill leave it at that. Numbers wise most arent impressed...I was impressed with the total carry job on offense.

Shaq? Obviously.

Karl Malone in 99? Everyone here would be talking more shit about the Blazer series than people are about Giannis now. Clearly not dominant.

How many really dominant playoff performances among MVPS the last 20 years?

5? 6?

Yet people keep expecting it as if the team that really run shit dont usually have too many elite players for one of them to win MVP.

Curry and KD cancel out so lesser guys can can win MVPs. Same for Lebron and Wade. Now Lebron and AD. Shaq and Kobe when they were together. That leaves a lot of MVPs on good but not amazing teams who won a lot because they elevated them.

Te normal outcome of an MVP season is probably what....a second round or conference finals loss unless youre on those superteams who win too much to deny someone the MVP. Whatever you think of the bucks they arent that. Deep...but not a superteam.

The team Giannis ends up on next will probably be a superteam...where he wont win MVP because it will be a vote splitting situation....and they will steamroll some MVP who won 59 games with less talent and we get to act like hes a ****up for a few years. Hes a young MVP. The young MVPs generally dont do that much in the playoffs id estimate. MVPs in that 27-30 range are probably more setup to really kick ass.

[DMAVS41]

3. They just got swept by the Heat and won their only game WITHOUT Giannis

Bucks without Giannis > Heat w/o Butler


Here you go with your laughable nonsense yet again.. sigh.

Tell me how you think that is a response to what I posted.

[And1AllDay]

I think the fundamental problem is here.

You expect an MVP to dominate when generally....they dont.

12 and 13 you have Lebron who was at his peak and at times dominant.

11? Rose. Not dominant.

09 and 10 Lebron? Great numbers getting upset in the second round one year and a mocked to this day performance the other. Maybe call 09 dominant if its a numbers thing for you.

Kobe in 08? In some of the west playoffs yes. Not the finals. Overall you could call it dominant I suppose.
.

Are you a Kobe homer but I just realized it today?

Kobe 08 = dominant but
LeBron = 12 at times dominant

Can I put a reminder to you that LJ averaged 30/10/5 on 50% and won FMVP in 2012. And so its only been done one other time ever bruh :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

All it did was validate all the flaws and issues with his game people have levied at him for over 3 years now. And it hasn’t changed.

He puts up gaudy stats, but to the knowledgeable basketball eye test person, he still has many exploitable flaws in his game. Hell, he was disappointing in FIBA recently last summer as well.

He’s this odd modern big man, with slight perimeter dribbling skills, allowed to travel and try to force his way to the rim off the dribble.

Build a good defensive wall with layers to defense (let alone have quality time protection as well) and he’s toast.

No finesse, craftiness, jumper or varied scoring skill set to excel in the playoffs against good teams or above average set half court defenses.

I think this is the important part that some posters are missing on this thread.

Giannis has put up unbelievable numbers and accolades by the age of 25. That is commendable and to be recognized regardless of his failures. Having said that, the last three seasons where he has excelled the most has also shown him to be unreliable in some big spots. I tend to weigh postseason and particularly elimination games quite heavily, so let's take a look at those last three seasons.

2018 Game 7 against Boston: 22 points on 41% with 4 turnovers

2019 ECF against Toronto: 23 PPG on 45% (52% TS%), averaging 4 TOs

2020 ECSF against Miami: 22 PPG on 52% (55% TS%), where his team played better with him off the court

What's notable about these performances is the significant drop off in his numbers from the regular season. Giannis has averaged 28 PPG, and a 55% FG% and 62% TS% the last three years. So the decline in production in big moments, particularly the last three seasons, is significant.

[HoopsNY]

What’s funny to me is that people pick whatever reason they want to explain a performance in an effort to make themselves right. So....Giannis not having skill is why he got “shut down” but Bird can put up 18/11 on 43% and get swept in the second round in his prime....Chris Paul 13/9 on 36% in his prime....Kobe 23 on 38%. Apparently such things can happen to people of immense skill...but when it’s Giannis or Shaq before him or the other few people we choose....it shows a lack of skill and being easy to shut down.

Truth is....the shit just happens. The few people it only happens to 1 or 2 times are GOAT level and the only person saying Giannis is that is that rudeboy guy who insists he’s better than Hakeem.

I'm just not sure this is a fair comparison. Kobe put up horrid numbers against Detroit after winning 3 titles, including the 2002 season where he excelled in the finals against a great Nets defense (the Nets were 1st in defense that year).

Kobe put up 27 PPG on 62% TS% in the sweep. So I'm not sure levying that against Kobe given postseason success and 3 championships really pans out.

As for Bird, he played poorly (relatively speaking to his usual performance), in that series against Philadelphia, but that was coming off of an NBA title. Not to mention, that was just Bird's third season. This is Giannis' 7th.

Giannis' lack of skill is something that can't be ignored, especially after 7 seasons in the league. After a while, shit just becomes ingrained in your style of play and it becomes hard to develop or to break bad habits.

I remember watching Shaq in 2000 and Doug Collins was talking about how Phil Jackson criticized Shaq for his free throws. He mentioned that it wasn't the fact that Shaq wasn't practicing free throws, he just wouldn't change his form, which is the basis of free throw shooting. Bad form=bad release=bad shots.

Shit does happen. In Giannis' case, he has been a top MVP vote getter or won MVP the last 3 seasons and has had notable failures in all three years. That matters.

[HoopsNY]

Agreed. Neither MJ or LeBron had a ring by age 25.

MJ by age 25: 1 MVP, 0 rings, 0 finals, 1 ECF
LeBron by age 25: 2 MVP's, 0 rings, 1 finals, 2 ECF
Giannis by age 25: 2 MVP's, 0 rings, 0 finals, 1 ECF

He compares well.

He doesn't. Giannis' big moments have come in the last three years, all of which has had him as a top MVP vote getter or with him winning the MVP with a #1 seeded team. Yet look at MJ and LeBron in big moments compared to Giannis.

You could highlight LeBron's 2007 finals performance, but he still got his team there and performed well in the ECF. And that was just LeBron's 4th season in the league. This is now Giannis' 7th season in the league.

[DMAVS41]

Shit does happen. In Giannis' case, he has been a top MVP vote getter or won MVP the last 3 seasons and has had notable failures in all three years. That matters.

Of course it matters. Nobody is saying it doesn't matter at all. He'd be a better player if the results were different...those results are in part a product of his level of play...which overall is absolutely great, but not yet good enough to be put in certain company in history. If he had played at his regular season level and won a couple titles the last 2 years....he'd already be in the Hakeem class of a player. I think he is worse mind you, but if you win back to back with what he's working with in this league...you can't deny it.

All that we...well, I won't speak for others...all that I am saying is that players, some clearly better than Giannis, have had similar results playing on teams similar to the Bucks. When you don't have that all-time great HOF running mate...it is really hard both individually and as a team in the playoffs. Tough matchups for elite teams become nightmare matchups for Bucks level teams. We've seen it over and over and over again.

So while Giannis didn't play at a high enough level to warrant certain comparisons...he also was playing at a level not many players ever get to...his "struggling" is still way better than most players ever. Just like Lebron/Dirk/Shaq/Bird/Kobe...etc.

Go back and actually analyze the teams that win the most in the playoffs. You won't find many Middleton's being the clear 2nd best guy on those teams.

And the question becomes...why should Giannis do something that very few players in history ever did...even much better players....why should he be held to the standard of "win without an elite HOF running mate"...

[TheGoatest]

Agreed. Neither MJ or LeBron had a ring by age 25.

MJ by age 25: 1 MVP, 0 rings, 0 finals, 1 ECF
LeBron by age 25: 2 MVP's, 0 rings, 1 finals, 2 ECF
Giannis by age 25: 2 MVP's, 0 rings, 0 finals, 1 ECF

He compares well.

LeBron leading a Cavs team whose second best player makes Khris Middleton look like peak Scottie Pippen to the finals in 2007 at the age of 22 > Giannis' entire 25 years of existence on this planet

Giannis actually fits the description LeBron haters had for LeBron at that point of his career:

Regular season performer
All athleticism, no skill
Can't shoot
No legit post game

The only difference is that all of these stereotypes weren't accurate for young LeBron, with the exception of no post game which LeBron didn't have until the 2011-12 season.

[999Guy]

2010 LeBron kind of season for him. Clearly better than everybody but got injured and has goofy(not bad, but goofy)coaching and supporting cast.

Watch what happens when they get Chris Paul or Jrue Holliday this off-season. People will stfu about Tatum or the Heat for a while, I think lol.

[tontoz]

He may have to accept a more traditional big man roll in order to be more successful in the playoffs. Trying to drive to the rim from outside the 3 pt line is a lot harder in the playoffs.

[Axe]

I think the fundamental problem is here.

You expect an MVP to dominate when generally....they dont. The MVP usually goes to someone wildly outperforming their teammates or someone on a team too good not to give it to someone from that team. When its the former? They rarely dominate. Hell either way they rarely do.

Think about years the MVP was dominant in the playoffs.

2020?

No.

2019?

No.

2018?

Harden vs the Warriors? They gave it a fight but....no.

2017?

Westbrook in the first round? No.

2016?

The Warriors won 6 of the first 8 games with Curry playing a total of 40 minutes in those games and knocking out the Rockets in a 33 point blowout he didnt play. They were tearing the west up without him. He was good but hardly dominant and the finals is well remembered. Talking dominance? Thats a no.

2015?

Curry was good. I dont know about dominant. You can call it that if you like.

2014?

KD vs the Spurs? Id call it ok by his standards. Clearly not dominant though.

12 and 13 you have Lebron who was at his peak and at times dominant.

11? Rose. Not dominant.

09 and 10 Lebron? Great numbers getting upset in the second round one year and a mocked to this day performance the other. Maybe call 09 dominant if its a numbers thing for you.

Kobe in 08? In some of the west playoffs yes. Not the finals. Overall you could call it dominant I suppose.

Dirk in 07? One of if not the worst MVP performance ever.

Nash back to back? Pretty good but hardly dominant. I wouldnt argue if you wanted to call it that though.

04 KG? At times dominant. Especially vs the Kings.

Duncan? Dominant in 03 and great in 02.

AI in 01? People will never come to agreement on that. Team did better than its talent and ill leave it at that. Numbers wise most arent impressed...I was impressed with the total carry job on offense.

Shaq? Obviously.

Karl Malone in 99? Everyone here would be talking more shit about the Blazer series than people are about Giannis now. Clearly not dominant.

How many really dominant playoff performances among MVPS the last 20 years?

5? 6?

Yet people keep expecting it as if the team that really run shit dont usually have too many elite players for one of them to win MVP.

Curry and KD cancel out so lesser guys can can win MVPs. Same for Lebron and Wade. Now Lebron and AD. Shaq and Kobe when they were together. That leaves a lot of MVPs on good but not amazing teams who won a lot because they elevated them.

Te normal outcome of an MVP season is probably what....a second round or conference finals loss unless youre on those superteams who win too much to deny someone the MVP. Whatever you think of the bucks they arent that. Deep...but not a superteam.

The team Giannis ends up on next will probably be a superteam...where he wont win MVP because it will be a vote splitting situation....and they will steamroll some MVP who won 59 games with less talent and we get to act like hes a ****up for a few years. Hes a young MVP. The young MVPs generally dont do that much in the playoffs id estimate. MVPs in that 27-30 range are probably more setup to really kick ass.
The mvp curse lol

Bronbron23 mentioned in another thread about the mvps in the last 5 years from 2016 to this year not having won championships in their respective years and turns out it was true.

[HoopsNY]

Of course it matters. Nobody is saying it doesn't matter at all. He'd be a better player if the results were different...those results are in part a product of his level of play...which overall is absolutely great, but not yet good enough to be put in certain company in history. If he had played at his regular season level and won a couple titles the last 2 years....he'd already be in the Hakeem class of a player. I think he is worse mind you, but if you win back to back with what he's working with in this league...you can't deny it.

All that we...well, I won't speak for others...all that I am saying is that players, some clearly better than Giannis, have had similar results playing on teams similar to the Bucks. When you don't have that all-time great HOF running mate...it is really hard both individually and as a team in the playoffs. Tough matchups for elite teams become nightmare matchups for Bucks level teams. We've seen it over and over and over again.

So while Giannis didn't play at a high enough level to warrant certain comparisons...he also was playing at a level not many players ever get to...his "struggling" is still way better than most players ever. Just like Lebron/Dirk/Shaq/Bird/Kobe...etc.

Go back and actually analyze the teams that win the most in the playoffs. You won't find many Middleton's being the clear 2nd best guy on those teams.

And the question becomes...why should Giannis do something that very few players in history ever did...even much better players....why should he be held to the standard of "win without an elite HOF running mate"...

What I'm saying is that it doesn't add up to his regular season achievements, at all. And his playoff performance in big spots these last three years are quite troubling. We're talking so much about Middleton but forgetting what Middleton and others have brought to the table these last 3 seasons.

2020 vs. Miami

Middleton: 26/6/7 on 53% TS%.

Not the best shooting performance but Giannis goes down in game 4 and Milwaukee wins their only game of the series with Middleton going for 36/8/8

2019 vs. Toronto

Here Middleton played poorly but overall, Milwaukee had 5 other guys in double figures and in the elimination game

Giannis 21 pts on 39%
Middleton 14 pts on 39%
Lopez 18 pts on 42%
Ilyasova 13 pts on 43%
Brogdon 10 pts on 50%
Hill 10 pts on 40%

So who takes the blame, really?

2018 vs. Boston

Middleton: 25/5/3 on 72% TS%

This concept that Giannis hasn't had the support has been overblown.

[DMAVS41]

Troubling compared to what players? I'd imagine you mean the very best to ever play...and sure, I agree...Giannis hasn't done anything of note in the playoffs in his career compared to them...and that really matters in a comparison with the truly elite in NBA history. Against pretty much every other player...Giannis has already done as much or more.

Nobody thinks Giannis doesn't have help. He has good help. He just hasn't played with the kind of help that it almost always takes to win.

When you ask...who takes the blame? Again, it depends on what standard you are grading Giannis. Are you grading him on the standard of the best players ever at their very best? Then, sure...Giannis has come up small compared to that. He's had better help than Hakeem 94, Duncan 03, and Dirk 11...and he doesn't even have a finals trip...let alone a title. Again, if that is the standard...yep...he's come up small in comparison.

But even the best players ever don't have runs like that without an all-time great running mate. Those are anomalies in NBA history that happen maybe once every 10 to 15 years...where a legit 1 star team carries a good, but not great supporting cast to the title.

Personally, I'd like to see Giannis get a legit title team around him and see what happens before I start killing him for not doing something that a handful of guys in NBA history have pulled off to begin with.

[CTbasketball92]

I think the fundamental problem is here.

You expect an MVP to dominate when generally....they dont. The MVP usually goes to someone wildly outperforming their teammates or someone on a team too good not to give it to someone from that team. When its the former? They rarely dominate. Hell either way they rarely do.

Think about years the MVP was dominant in the playoffs.

2020?

No.

2019?

No.

2018?

Harden vs the Warriors? They gave it a fight but....no.

2017?

Westbrook in the first round? No.

2016?

The Warriors won 6 of the first 8 games with Curry playing a total of 40 minutes in those games and knocking out the Rockets in a 33 point blowout he didnt play. They were tearing the west up without him. He was good but hardly dominant and the finals is well remembered. Talking dominance? Thats a no.

2015?

Curry was good. I dont know about dominant. You can call it that if you like.

2014?

KD vs the Spurs? Id call it ok by his standards. Clearly not dominant though.

12 and 13 you have Lebron who was at his peak and at times dominant.

11? Rose. Not dominant.

09 and 10 Lebron? Great numbers getting upset in the second round one year and a mocked to this day performance the other. Maybe call 09 dominant if its a numbers thing for you.

Kobe in 08? In some of the west playoffs yes. Not the finals. Overall you could call it dominant I suppose.

Dirk in 07? One of if not the worst MVP performance ever.

Nash back to back? Pretty good but hardly dominant. I wouldnt argue if you wanted to call it that though.

04 KG? At times dominant. Especially vs the Kings.

Duncan? Dominant in 03 and great in 02.

AI in 01? People will never come to agreement on that. Team did better than its talent and ill leave it at that. Numbers wise most arent impressed...I was impressed with the total carry job on offense.

Shaq? Obviously.

Karl Malone in 99? Everyone here would be talking more shit about the Blazer series than people are about Giannis now. Clearly not dominant.

How many really dominant playoff performances among MVPS the last 20 years?

5? 6?

Yet people keep expecting it as if the team that really run shit dont usually have too many elite players for one of them to win MVP.

Curry and KD cancel out so lesser guys can can win MVPs. Same for Lebron and Wade. Now Lebron and AD. Shaq and Kobe when they were together. That leaves a lot of MVPs on good but not amazing teams who won a lot because they elevated them.

Te normal outcome of an MVP season is probably what....a second round or conference finals loss unless youre on those superteams who win too much to deny someone the MVP. Whatever you think of the bucks they arent that. Deep...but not a superteam.

The team Giannis ends up on next will probably be a superteam...where he wont win MVP because it will be a vote splitting situation....and they will steamroll some MVP who won 59 games with less talent and we get to act like hes a ****up for a few years. Hes a young MVP. The young MVPs generally dont do that much in the playoffs id estimate. MVPs in that 27-30 range are probably more setup to really kick ass.

This is all fascinating and I can honestly say I never thought about it this way.

That said I would say that it was almost always clear that LeBron was the most dominant player, he just played against stacked teams and he was able to bring his garbage teams really far. His and Giannis’ situations aren’t the same. The other superstars also generally played at least as well as they normally do. Giannis never does.